accident at school

[JLCrab]

It seems the school may feel the OP's family may bear some component of the blame else they would not invite them to attend a meeting.

The way the school may treat the student if, in the end, they feel they have been unfairly saddled with the blame may be simple: They may say "When your paid-up tuition runs out, find another school".

[4u2mad]

Although I agree that the school should be held to task, I do wonder how much compensation has been paid out to those families who's children have been killed or injured in these horrific school bus 'accidents'.......

[scorecard]

Agreed, your child is not responsible, you are not liable.

Is your comment based on the law specific to the actual circumstances, or is it what you like the law to be in these circumstances?

Beware the armchair lawyers.

[Suradit69]

I work here as a teacher. The school usually covers medical bills in these types of situations. If anyone is trying it on you, I would be inclined to believe that your white skin is looking like a lottery ticket. Be adamant that you aren't paying anything. Good luck.

" I work here as a teacher.

I would be inclined to believe that your white skin is looking like a lottery ticket. "

Hopefully you don't bring your inclinations into the classroom.

[falangadang]

I concur with Mario2008.

Seek legal council or aid. Admit no responsibilities or comment with any party's involved.

"One would assume the School as taken liability by paying the medical cost." - My opinion

I agree to say nothing if attend the meeting at all. The school could say any assistance provided to date was done as a courtesy and is no way is any admission of liability.

I agree,.. stay away from the meeting, - it is a setup by the school and the other child's parents in the hope/expectation that they will play the guilt & sympathy card (don't forget about the "face" issue too) and you will get stung. Once you agree to dip your hand in your pocket it could be the beginning of an ongoing and costly financial drain.

The school are responsible. They have the duty of care.

I would write to the school pointing this out and avoid direct contact with the other boy's parents if you possibly can.

If you succeed in this regard then brace yourself for a visit from the police in an effort to intimidate you further!

The other boy will recover. kids bones are still very flexible and can cure and mend much better than with adults. It sounds like the medical prognosis (still in consideration???) is being prepared in order that costs will be escalated. That could be to benefit the doctor (who might be stretching the truth if he senses a farang may be an eventual benefactor of costs),. or it could be ruse from the boy's parents.

Whichever way you look at it,.. be careful and don't get tricked into any "conciliatory" meetings!

Just my 2 cents!

[JLCrab]

From post #1, it says the injuries were directly caused by the OP's son jumping on one end of the make-shift see-saw causing the injured boy to fall off the other end.

Issues as to whether the school provided adequate supervision or were somehow at fault because there was a wooden plank in the vicinity of the playground equipment are secondary to that event.

The school under Thai law and insurance provisions may indeed be at fault but I would say any blanket opinion to that effect as above may not be so cut & dried.

Edited January 31, 2014 by JLCrab

[belg]

school insurance? not included in yearly fee ?

[scorecard]

The school is liable and should be insured also for incidents like this.

But they will try everything to push the problem outside the school and put it with you as taking responsibility is not a strong point here. Somebody has to be blamed in the school organization and in Thai organizations that is to be prevented at all times.

The approach as Mario suggests would also be my approach too, but you have to be careful not to push them too far as it may affect the way they treat your son at school if his direct teacher is responsible for the accident.

It's very hard for a Thai to say "sorry this is my fault" let alone "I'll take responsibility for what happened" if forced in a situation where they would have to say something like this they can get a lot less funny.

And don't forget that country by country the whole concept of responsibility is as flexible as a broken leg.

Different cultures / different definitions & attitudes to 'responsibility'. Reality of life.

Perhaps you or I might come from a country where responsibility is a strong concept, like it or not that doesn't mean we have a right to demand that the local culture is the same on this point.

[Thai at Heart]

Not your ploblem.

Its a genuine accident and the school should have insurance coverage. Had something similar happen to my son. Kids horsing around and a girl took an almighty whirling kick at my son.

He defended it and the girl fell over and broke her arm.. Everything was.on the cctv and other kids said the same thing. Magically it was apparently my sons fault.

I told the school I had zero interest and would not meet the parents of the other child.and that it was their problem to solve, not mine.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[Boss]

It's just another Thai Scam...... Farang can always pay.....

The school is 100 % responsibel...

[JLCrab]

Not your ploblem.

Its a genuine accident and the school should have insurance coverage. Had something similar happen to my son. Kids horsing around and a girl took an almighty whirling kick at my son.

He defended it and the girl fell over and broke her arm.. Everything was.on the cctv and other kids said the same thing. Magically it was apparently my sons fault.

I told the school I had zero interest and would not meet the parents of the other child.and that it was their problem to solve, not mine.

What you describe is not a comparable situation and there is no information as to what the costs of treatment might be involved. For a simple broken arm the school being told not-my-problem may let it slide. If far more serious, maybe not.

[Thai at Heart]

Not your ploblem.

Its a genuine accident and the school should have insurance coverage. Had something similar happen to my son. Kids horsing around and a girl took an almighty whirling kick at my son.

He defended it and the girl fell over and broke her arm.. Everything was.on the cctv and other kids said the same thing. Magically it was apparently my sons fault.

I told the school I had zero interest and would not meet the parents of the other child.and that it was their problem to solve, not mine.

What you describe is not a comparable situation and there is no information as to what the costs of treatment might be involved. For a simple broken arm the school being told not-my-problem may let it slide. If far more serious, maybe not.

The school should be insured. If it is a private school, a fee is levied, if govt kids are in the system.

What treatment are they talking about?

[JLCrab]

Not your ploblem.

Its a genuine accident and the school should have insurance coverage. Had something similar happen to my son. Kids horsing around and a girl took an almighty whirling kick at my son.

He defended it and the girl fell over and broke her arm.. Everything was.on the cctv and other kids said the same thing. Magically it was apparently my sons fault.

I told the school I had zero interest and would not meet the parents of the other child.and that it was their problem to solve, not mine.

What you describe is not a comparable situation and there is no information as to what the costs of treatment might be involved. For a simple broken arm the school being told not-my-problem may let it slide. If far more serious, maybe not.

The school should be insured. If it is a private school, a fee is levied, if govt kids are in the system.

What treatment are they talking about?

Beats me -- from Post #1: " ... but have recently learned that his injury could be quite serious". Even if there is insurance that doesn't mean that an insurance company for the school might not try to recover if the amounts involve warrant.

[nontabury]

Especially if this is a private school, many school enrollment agreements at least in the USA contain waiver of liability and hold harmless clauses unless negligence can be proven.

What happens in the USA is completely irrelevant, this is thailand.

[cracker1]

Mario laid out my thought exactly.

This is a school management issue.

[phka]

loco parentis "in the place of a parent" such as school time

[Lahontan]

You are not liable, and don't admit guilt in the meeting. It is a good idea to attend the meeting as it shows concern and compassion.

As these things go, however, they will probably try to lay blame on your son. Worse case, there were two boys involved so the blame for the accident is shared 50/50. Then on top of this the school did not provide proper supervision so they are also factored into the equation. If you are insured, your insurance company may pursue this negotiating route in order to minimize its legal costs.

[NanLaew]

Especially if this is a private school, many school enrollment agreements at least in the USA contain waiver of liability and hold harmless clauses unless negligence can be proven.

Yes, it is a private school, I think negligence can be proved, the kids could tell the story of what they were doing. this plank of wood they were able to obtain was 2 1/2 meters long 12 inch width and around 1 inch thick, shouldn't have been in the school and there was no playground monitor but here in thailand you see health and safety issue everywhere.

Talk about health and safety.

My sons school had its Chinese New Year bash on Friday afternoon and I was amazed to see a farang parent decide that he wanted the best vantage point and climbed over a 2nd floor balcony wall and sat on the external side of the wall with absolutely no fall protection from the 1 meter deep platform he was sitting on, legs swinging in the void. Then he invited (I assume) his daughter to come and sit beside him. About 10 minutes later, I saw the school administrator talking to him and obviously pointing out that he cannot sit there. He handily passed his sibling back over to safety but then appeared to engage the admin in some interminable conversation while remaining on the dangerous side of the wall. There's definitely a syndrome where foreigners become dumbed-down towards Thai-style health and safety (like no helmets while racing the child to school?) but this was totally absurd. Not even a 'dumb' Thai would think on climbing outside a balcony onto an open ledge above about 200 parents and children.

Back to the OP.... the school has 100% liability and it is their insurance (if any) that needs to pony up if there's any claim from the family of the injured kid.

Having said that, I will be reassessing the insurance liabilities if my sons school in light of the absurd behavior of a parent that I witnessed today.

[Jonmarleesco]

To start with, the school should be carrying insurance, which they seemingly are since 'they' covered the initial cost. They should also be carrying liability cover, though I'm not sure the law requires it. But as an accident, which seems to be what it was, then the school are liable for the pupils' actions while they are in the school.

Hell, my son has been hurt at school, and not just through accidents but stupidity and unnecessary aggressiveness as well. But I haven't insisted on compensation, or threatened to sue someone - yet.

I would stand your ground.

[malcoml]

I doubt this is a true quality international school if things are playing out this way.

We sent our son to only a hald decent international kindergarten and spoke to a lovely lady there who had studied in Australia and she assured us that our son was fully insured should any type of accident happen. I think I even remember seeing a insurance levy on our bill.

the likely scenairo is the school is happy to pay medical costs but the parents seeing a quick dollar have already tried to extract money from the school. The school has obviously not taken to this and has said best you speak to the other students parents.

I dont think anything good can come from you attending the meeting. To start with there is a fair chace they simply wont be able to understand a word you said and all they will get is the farang said no pay.

Go and see a solicitor so you have a clear indication on the law and then send the solicitor to attend this meeting. It will likely quickly come to an end then.

[JLCrab]

Especially if this is a private school, many school enrollment agreements at least in the USA contain waiver of liability and hold harmless clauses unless negligence can be proven.

What happens in the USA is completely irrelevant, this is thailand.

This is Thailand. Really?

[drx13]

quote "taking responsibility is not a strong point here"

I recall when reading up on the culture here that there was no translatable equivalent to the concept of "being responsible"

It was either in a Bangkok Post series or Tim Redmonds "Wondering into Thai Culture"

[wooloomooloo]

When I was in primary school back in the early seventies I nearly died in class. The teacher saved my life and another few seconds without intervention would have seen me done. I was a child and I took a risk. I was completely unaware that my innocent action could possibly kill me.

It was reported in the local paper recently that the teacher that saved my life all those years ago died at the age of 82. I'll never forget her for what she did that day and glad she enjoyed a long life.

There was no need for a claim of compensation or to attribute blame [it was my fault].

How times change and the desire to blame appears foremost.

[impulse]

Gosh, I wish I had the confidence you guys have that there won't be any liability.

If the kid picked up a rock and put someone's eye out with it, would the school be liable because there was a rock on the grounds?

If he had picked up a board and hit someone with it, where would the liability be?

If he jumped on the board with the express purpose of flinging the smaller guy up into the air, who is liable?

Should the school be held liable if a kid jumps off cars parked on the grounds and gets hurt, or lands on another kid and hurts him?

I'm not saying any of that happened, but depending on what the witnesses say, this could go badly. There are bazillions of things on typical school grounds that could be dangerous and schools can't be expected to protect their charges from any childish actions they may take on, often deliberately out of view.

I'd say a lawyer may be appropriate.

[iamariva1957]

In reality it was your son's fault that the other student got hurt. However, it was the school's responsibility to supervise all the students while in their care. So you, as the child's parents who were not there or members of the school's staff are not culpable for the accident. The school is trying to shift the blame for the usual reason (money) and that is the only reason. There are rules regarding the number of students and the number of supervisors (usually teachers or teacher aids) that come into play... well that is the idea anyway. In practice that does not always happen. I would stand my ground and insist that it was the school's failure to supply proper safety measures and supervisory personnel. But I would make some sort of offer to the other student's family.Maybe not money (though they would love that from a Farang which is also perhaps the direction they are hoping to take) but maybe just a really nice gift for their child. But do NOT claim that it was your son's fault. make sure that they know that you believe that it was the school's fault (see above) and that they should focus on getting compensation from them. Perhaps you know a lawyer that will do you a favor and help them with this? Might be a nice gesture on your part to help pay for said lawyer. That would make you look like the savior here and not have them loose face and show that you too are angry. Kids will be kids and the fact that the doctor "needs"extra time to find out what is wrong worries me. Why? Other than a head injury it should be straight forward. So what is he looking for? Get a better doctor! Not expensive and if you arrange it at a private hospital it will show good faith. But make sure that the school knows that you are doing this because they have not done enough and that you blame them for all of it!

[iamariva1957]

impulse you are wrong.The school would be responsible. That is why they have insurance (or should). While a child is in the care of the school and during which is on school grounds, school is in session, and/or on a school sponsored field trip, the school is liable and responsible for each student's health and safety. Be it a piece of faulty equipment or another student "throwing a rock" it is up to the school to provide the supervision so as to make sure that these instances do not happen and if they do to provide the proper and demanded standard of care. Kids will be kids, granted. However this does not alleviate the school's responsibility. Accidents happen, but again this does not diminish the school's responsibility. Parents have a duty to make sure that their child/children know right from wrong and what is exceptable behavior and what is not. However, while in the care of the school it is also that institution's duty to maintain the health and safety of those children/students. This is not to say that parental punishment should not be left out, but in this matter it is clear that the school is trying to avoid its responsibilities and shift the financial 'blame' onto the parents and family of the student that was the 'cause'.

[impulse]

impulse you are wrong.The school would be responsible. That is why they have insurance (or should). While a child is in the care of the school and during which is on school grounds, school is in session, and/or on a school sponsored field trip, the school is liable and responsible for each student's health and safety.

So if my kid gets angry, picks up a pair of scissors and deliberately stabs the kid next to him, it's the school's responsibility, and I have no financial liability?

If my kid jumps off the 3rd floor balcony between classes and lands on top of another kid, I'm off scott free with no financial liability?

Maybe you're right. But in either case, I'd be getting a lawyer, just in case it doesn't go the way you think it should... And I'd have that lawyer before discussing anything with anyone at the school- and perhaps shooting myself in the butt. 'Cause they'll be taking notes.

Edit: The school's insurance may pay out to protect the school. But then they'll be looking for a way to recover their loss. It's called subrogation. The school has an attorney, who has coached their people exactly what to say and not to say. Their insurance company has a pack of attorneys. You don't want to be the only one at the party without benefit of competent legal advice.

Edited February 1, 2014 by impulse

[wym]

quote "taking responsibility is not a strong point here"

I recall when reading up on the culture here that there was no translatable equivalent to the concept of "being responsible"

It was either in a Bangkok Post series or Tim Redmonds "Wondering into Thai Culture"

"rahpitchawp"

more specific than the English, connotes obligation, compensation, making it right

often in the sense of something to avoid taking on, e.g. wrt a wife or children

[GOLDBUGGY]

If the school has a Liability Waiver Clause, that you may have signed, then the school is protected against liability for common accidents. But this does not shield them from every accident that could happen at the school.

Imagine for a second the school builds a Soccer Field (Football to some) and you sign a waiver to allow your son to play. In the course of a normal game your son trips, falls and breaks his arm. In this case the school cannot be held responsible as you knew there were risks in your son playing this game and gave your permission.

On the other hand, this same school builds this Soccer Field over Land Mines and a few players get hurt as a result of this. This Waiver no longer protects them as the school is also expected to provide a safe area for the children to play in, which they did not. So this becomes Negligence on the part of this school and they would be held responsible.

Which brings this back to your case. Why was this plank of wood made available to children to use in a School Play Ground? Why were they unsupervised, or they weren't caught until after the incident? These are points you may want to raise with the school, and other parents, before you go to the meeting at the school to show Negligence of the part of the school. Also so you can both be on the same side when you go. They also probably signed this waiver to.

If this school refuses to see this and acknowledge this, and refuses to pay at any cost then you are left with 1 options, IMHO. You can't fight the school as it was not your child who got hurt, thus you did not incur any medical expenses. It is up to the injured boys parents to do so. So they have the option to go after them, but also you as well, in a court of law. I think in Thailand many people just represent themselves in court. Especially small claims.

If I was you I wouldn't want to get dragged into any of this over a relatively small sum of money. Who knows if this injured boys uncle isn't a Lawyer willing to work for them for free and also go after you for all the suffering and pain this boy went through? Unless you have the same you can't win no matter the outcome. I would hate going to court and fighting over this as well. So if all else fails I think I would try to make an agreement with the Injured boys parents and split the cost with them for this injury. Tell them they can go after the school for the rest of this money, or leave it alone. I think they will consider this fare and not hold a grudge against you later. But...as always...Up-to-You! . .

[nontabury]

If the school has a Liability Waiver Clause, that you may have signed, then the school is protected against liability for common accidents. But this does not shield them from every accident that could happen at the school.

Imagine for a second the school builds a Soccer Field (Football to some) and you sign a waiver to allow your son to play. In the course of a normal game your son trips, falls and breaks his arm. In this case the school cannot be held responsible as you knew there were risks in your son playing this game and gave your permission.

On the other hand, this same school builds this Soccer Field over Land Mines and a few players get hurt as a result of this. This Waiver no longer protects them as the school is also expected to provide a safe area for the children to play in, which they did not. So this becomes Negligence on the part of this school and they would be held responsible.

Which brings this back to your case. Why was this plank of wood made available to children to use in a School Play Ground? Why were they unsupervised, or they weren't caught until after the incident? These are points you may want to raise with the school, and other parents, before you go to the meeting at the school to show Negligence of the part of the school. Also so you can both be on the same side when you go. They also probably signed this waiver to.

If this school refuses to see this and acknowledge this, and refuses to pay at any cost then you are left with 1 options, IMHO. You can't fight the school as it was not your child who got hurt, thus you did not incur any medical expenses. It is up to the injured boys parents to do so. So they have the option to go after them, but also you as well, in a court of law. I think in Thailand many people just represent themselves in court. Especially small claims.

If I was you I wouldn't want to get dragged into any of this over a relatively small sum of money. Who knows if this injured boys uncle isn't a Lawyer willing to work for them for free and also go after you for all the suffering and pain this boy went through? Unless you have the same you can't win no matter the outcome. I would hate going to court and fighting over this as well. So if all else fails I think I would try to make an agreement with the Injured boys parents and split the cost with them for this injury. Tell them they can go after the school for the rest of this money, or leave it alone. I think they will consider this fare and not hold a grudge against you later. But...as always...Up-to-You! . .

You raise some very good point, yet at the end you say that even though they may not be liable, that you recommend that they should pay up. If the school is at fault, as it seems to be, there is no way, that the OP should even consider parting with his money.

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