Dzogchen via intrisic Kundalini

[thaicurious]

Hi members;

I'd like to throw some questions regarding these subjects and wondered if there was any interest on these forums ?

The subjects I'd like to raise are Dzogchen, Nibbana, intrisic Kunalindi, activated Kunalindi, the Crown Chakra, and specifically; Nibbana through meditation and the presence of Kunalindi and the Crown chakra in attainment of Dzogchen and/or Nibbana.

Thanks.

Hi RandomSand. Though adherent to no religion, I am a student of Dzogchen for about 20 years, a lucid dreamer since my earliest childhood memories which I utilize for my dream yoga practices and I've experience with kundalini which started cranking up on its own back in my early 30s during my regularly scheduled lucid dreaming. Not knowing what it was, I consciously held it at bay for years, if I recall right, might have been just a year, until I learned by chance what it might be and then during dreaming I let myself experience it out of curiosity. Yes, it burned that first time as some describe. For a while I didn't think I'd survive it but I figured it out. After that I self taught myself to experience kundalini while my body is awake and I played with that for about 10 years, since putting it to rest. I lost control once, feeling my thinking screwing up while meditating, wound up blacking out--normally I'd be conscious during the entire experience--and woke up on the other side of the room with my face smashing into the tile. Very bloody. Wouldn't recommend that aspect of it.

My dream yoga practice had gotten quite good, I even got one practice from something I'd read of the Dalai Lama, to put the body to sleep while maintaining consciousness, create a dream, practice dream yoga, then destroy the dream and awaken the body without losing consciousness, lather, rinse, repeat. It's a good practice in control. I had to stop my dreaming though at a time when I was experiencing the concurrent deaths of some of my favorite loved ones because my mourning carried into my dreaming and so I couldn't get any rest. I'm just now cranking all that up again, feeling in better control over my emotional states.

And that is one reason why practice is continuous, because life is always throwing things at you. I read much of this thread though not all. Love all the very good understanding shown by many of the posters. What I think I noticed missing is the Mahayana view of Nirvana which is, if I understand it right and am able to relay it correctly, not so much a destination as it is thought of in the Theravada schools of thought, but rather it is more of a way point beyond which we recognize that we don't know how consciousness might work, how mind might think. In one school you're getting off the wheel. In the other school you're getting off the conveyor walkway (I think that's the correct technical term) to take a few steps before hitting the next one.

As I first said, I don't consider myself a Buddhist but I enjoy the thinking very much and plan to learn more about the Theravada train of thought. I came upon Buddhism fairly naturally, as there was very little literature in my youth which might explain my dream practices, leading me to whatever was available for some sort of explanation of what no one else around me seemed to be experiencing--certainly no one ever discussed it back then and western thinking was even that being conscious in a dream was not possible--at a time when there wasn't even all that much yet translated into English that I could understand. As well, at that time, one of my favorite cousins was at the Tassajara Zen Center in California and was a colleague of Thich Nhat Hanh, so he was able to advise me somewhat though not practiced in dream yoga himself. So I was somewhat familiar with Buddhism by family ties, but most of it was accidental, lucking into learning about the Tibetans who had for millennia systematically studied dreaming.

So if you have any specific questions with regard to your OP which you think I might be able to shed some light on--or to help confuse, hey, I like a good time--feel free to ask away. I don't buy into notions of keeping so-called esoteric information from anyone. People will make mistakes with or without it. I'm for a free flow of information and let's see where that takes us.

Peace

[RandomSand]

Thanks for your post, thaicurious.

I'm very interested in your dream yoga as I've stated to notice that waking and dreaming are quite similar from a spiritual perspective.

Typically the chakras are said to be located at specific points of the body. However; In dream we are able to leave the body(?), so, do you think we can leave our bodies and still "have" our chakra points ?

My own experience with this kundalini energy is during waking hours. I had meditated on concentrating my awareness up and down my body for a few evenings before sleep.

Then during the day, whilst driving, I found that if I purposely breathed quite sharply, I could arouse some sensations that felt like surges of energy.

Whilst I didn't know that I was "activating" kundalini at the time, reading about it now on wikipedia, I can see that what I was doing *was* very energy-orientated.

I was very fit and active around this time so my health would have played a large part I guess. I had also already had some spiritual experience a few years earlier in which my crown chakra had briefly opened... so maybe my body was already somewhat "primed"?

Anyway; A couple of days later... (at work) I suddenly realised that a fire had broken out inside my body. Burning from my bottom of my torso and it felt like I was hollow inside. Blazing with intense fire is the only way I can describe it. I took a few deep breaths and could then feel it dancing onto my tongue. At this point I felt incredibly powerful, charismatic and majestic. I quickly wanted to know how this new found state of being might benefit my life so I tried to force myself into a social situation that I wouldn't normally be very comfortable experiencing. Instantly the fire went out! After that experience (and in the next few days, weeks and even months) I had some muscle spasms and twitching. I was glad when it stopped really. I think drinking alcohol a few years later caused it to fully cease causing muscle spasms.

It's very powerful and I wouldn't advise anyone to mediate on their chakras without proper guidance. A yogic text-book is not enough! You need to be pure emotionally and without hangups. I think what's most important is not having any emotional issues or demons in your psyche. Certainly, without a proper path, the kundalini will be very painful and magnify any issues you might already have. I was reading that unresolved emotional issues can cause some people (who have an unwelcome activated kundalini) to get diagnosed as schizophrenics, experience dissociative states or get excruciatingly painful cluster-migraines which can't be cured with painkillers. I mainly wrote this paragraph (as a warning) to anyone who might start meditating on their energy after reading this post. (comprehensive page on diagnosing "kundalini syndrome" via wikipedia)

Peace right back at cha!

Edited February 23, 2014 by RandomSand

[thaicurious]

Meditating while driving--not the usual contemplative/vegetative state we often fall into but in putting forth effort to not be paying attention to your driving--particularly since meditating can lead to falling into a trance-like state, is probably worse than texting while driving and practicing kundalini yoga while driving is simply off the scale since a wrong thought during kundalini yoga can throw your body into convulsions and your car into oncoming traffic. That puts others and yourself at risk.

While there does seem a certain pathway to the experiencing of so-called kundalini which does not vary from experience to experience, a definable, predictable cycling of the sensations experienced--or at least so I've experienced it, with the exception of my first time which began as I later learned they seem to but that time went beyond anything I ever again experienced--and while I have experienced the same phenomenon both while my body is awake and when asleep while maintaining consciousness, I do not know if conceived structures are nothing more than figments of imagination utilized by the mind to conceptualize/quantify experience and so I do not know if there truly is such a thing as a system of chakras. I await the science. But certainly we can think of things in those terms and allow for corrections later.

In dreaming, even in non lucid dreaming, we do of course have a dream body which functions very much like our body when our body is awake. In fact there's even a Toltec practice as disseminated by Castaneda whereby you keep in mind the position of your physical body upon falling asleep and then in your dream you place your dream body in an identical position as you had left your physical body and dream your dream body back to sleep. With regard to any sort of out-of-body body, though I've decades of experiences which others might describe as out of body, I'm not convinced it is anything more than a continuum of lucid dreaming experience. During those times it is possible to experience the self as a singular point but also as a disembodied dream body of sorts. And it is in that state where I first experienced kundalini rising, beginning very much--in its initializing--as experienced successively while my body was awake though only as a dream body did I experience the intense burn. After that it wasn't an issue.

When my body is awake the experience is that the head fills with light on arising, there are these very odd noises and then this sensation of absolute oneness before it finishes cycling back down to the gut. It is an interesting place to visit but not a place to stay as it would be impossible to function in the world.

I don't know what you experienced at work but the description of participating in a social situation while feeling "charismatic and majestic" sounds like you went over the edge a bit as those are terms of grandiosity which is not enlightenment. Playing with you mind like this is very close to the edge stuff such that you wind up walking a tightrope between psychosis & nihilism.

[RandomSand]

I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect, that sensation of fire is a manifestation, which arises, because of imperfection.

I read within an Indian teaching as follows;

The charcoal burns gently as an ember. When the ash is shaken-off; the fire may flame-up.

I strongly suspect that the heart quenches the fire. Of this war; I regard Lord Ganesha as the triumphant deity.

I am too meek to talk about this any further. This is my feeling.

All I could say (as it's a step sideways) is; The fire might fuel charisma, and hence charity,.. this is not negative. Empowered thus I might accumulate merit and boldness for Ganesha.

Edited February 26, 2014 by RandomSand

[thaicurious]

That could be, but I don't claim to know, what the burning is; I know that many like to reference it to a burning off of so-called karma or some such. I personally don't presume knowledge about that, only some years of direct experience. Nor do I tend towards the dogmatizing of that which I experience. As I mentioned originally, I am adherent to none.

Edited February 26, 2014 by thaicurious

[RandomSand]

...not be paying attention to your driving--particularly since meditating can lead to falling into a trance-like state,..

Yeah maybe some people have problem. Don't trance & drive, eh?

Just breath & drive. I think it's okay. What else can I do?

Samsara is my master. I'm student. Lesson never stop.

[RandomSand]

I am a student of Dzogchen for about 20 years

I am adherent to none.

I read of Dzogchen this; there is nothing to learn, there can be no practice,.. everything has already become and never was.

You are a student of Dzogchen.

I am a student of Samsara.

Still; I think, perhaps, we both suffer because of the same paradox.

Of the Great Perfection; may I call it "the ground of paradox" ?

Edited February 26, 2014 by RandomSand

[rockyysdt]

I read of Dzogchen this; there is nothing to learn, there can be no practice,.. everything has already become and never was.

Still; I think, perhaps, we both suffer because of the same paradox.

Of the Great Perfection; may I call it "the ground of paradox" ?

Hi R.

I think a similar thing has been said about Enlightenment.

Importantly, practice is meant to take us towards "awareness" of that which we already are.

[RandomSand]

I speak about a paradox which is something other than than enlightenment or awakening.

[RandomSand]

Hi R.

I think a similar thing has been said about Enlightenment.

Importantly, practice is meant to take us towards "awareness" of that which we already are.

When you wake-up, it's possible to "monitor" what's happening in the process of awakening.. Tips: Don't grasp. Don't look too close. It *really* helps if you had plenty of sleep beforehand and don't feel like there's anything important to attend to. Just go with the flow. Maybe you build a model in your imagination like "the cloud separates", or, "the branches are heavy". My favourite is "The wider the gulf that polarity came back from unto the touch; the grosser the sub-expression (manifestation of the touch) does become*." (not so poetic, eh?) When you're fully awake you'll probably want to pee and brush your teeth. (this is not a joke post). Caution; If going to sleep then everything would be backwards. Beware; If you have the wrong end of the stick then you might think that waking is sleeping & sleeping is waking... Unless you're thus gone in which case waking is dreaming , dreaming is waking, (so the wrong end of the stick is the right end of the stick). Confused? U must sleep!

* let's say you have 5 sub-expressions as follows:

x1-1y

x2-2y

x3-3y

x4-4y

x5-5y

Then you get this cross "x3-5y". Well maybe you've taken LSD or have provoked some energy in a psychotic state of mind. Now's here the funny question; Is the "x3-5y touch" the result of the LSD, or, is the LSD the result of the touch ? haha.

Of course you think I'm either mad or on LSD when reading this, up 2 you!

Edited February 27, 2014 by RandomSand

[thaicurious]

I read of Dzogchen this; there is nothing to learn, there can be no practice,...

I don't recall studying such a train of thought espoused in Dzogchen. Did you read that from Padmasambhava or are you quoting Longchenpa?

[RandomSand]

Sorry I can't remember and I paraphrase anyway.

It's slightly problematic that I understand the great perfection as without conception, yet when I relate with others, I get the impression that they understand the great perfection as an array of concepts and the practitioner transcending the array.

Of course it's also slightly problematic that another person would reply thus "of what you write is not Dzogchen"... and that completely flummoxes me!

[thaicurious]

Sorry I can't remember and I paraphrase anyway.

It's slightly problematic that I understand the great perfection as without conception, yet when I relate with others, I get the impression that they understand the great perfection as an array of concepts and the practitioner transcending the array.

Of course it's also slightly problematic that another person would reply thus "of what you write is not Dzogchen"... and that completely flummoxes me!

Perhaps studying how Dzogpa Chenpo differentiates from Zen Buddhism might help de-discombobulate you in this regard.

[RandomSand]

Sorry I can't remember and I paraphrase anyway.

It's slightly problematic that I understand the great perfection as without conception, yet when I relate with others, I get the impression that they understand the great perfection as an array of concepts and the practitioner transcending the array.

Of course it's also slightly problematic that another person would reply thus "of what you write is not Dzogchen"... and that completely flummoxes me!

Perhaps studying how Dzogpa Chenpo differentiates from Zen Buddhism might help de-discombobulate you in this regard.

Would you agree that the practitioner who has "transcended the array" is commonly known as a Buddha or Arahant ? **note: for this person, they can manifest and interact in samsara.

And, if we're in agreement of the above, how would the Dzogchen teachings, or yourself, describe an experience of unconceptual non-duality but without the ability to see into the array ? **note: for this person, samsara cannot be perceived - so of course there is no manifestation into, or interaction within, samsara)

If my question is not clear pleas don't hesitate in asking for clarification.

Thanks.

Edited February 28, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

Oh, I should make it clear that in both examples, in my previous post, the array has been transcended. However; in the first instance the person is with perfect vision but the second instance the person is effectively blind to the details.

The question still stands as is.

Also; If the topic of Kundalini could be brought in at this point, for me, it would certainly tie-up this thread very nicely.

Edited February 28, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

...Now, I've heard Theravadins claim that it is nothing more than a fetter or ego-grasping to want to stay in samsara. The is exactly opposite of the meaning and misses the point entirely. The point is that great compassion for others is practiced and perfected in the Mahayana rather that the practitioner simply achieving nirvana and exiting samsara leaving everyone else behind

The Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra directly addresses this.

Small Excerpt (Translated and edited from the Chinese (Kumarajiva ed. T.475) by Charles Luk (Lu K'uan Yi) in 1972.):

Vimalakirti wondered why the great compassionate Buddha did not take pity on him as he was confined to bed suffering from an indisposition.

The Buddha knew of his thought and said to Sariputra: “Go to Vimalakirti to enquire after his health on my behalf.”

Edited February 28, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

I read of Dzogchen this; there is nothing to learn, there can be no practice,...

I don't recall studying such a train of thought espoused in Dzogchen. Did you read that from Padmasambhava or are you quoting Longchenpa?

Looking into my library I pulled out this text:

The Precious Treasury of the Basic Space of Phenomena (Source verses of the Choying Dzod) - Natsok Rangdröl (Tsele Gotsangpa) (Born 1608) lineage of Longchen Rabjam (Born 1308 - major teacher in the Nyingma school of Tibetan Buddhism).

"" Transcending Effort and Causality

Within mind itself - the essence of awakened mind - there is no view to cultivate in meditation, no conduct to undertake, no fruition to achieve, no levels of realization or paths to traverse, no mandala to visualise, no recitation, repetition, or stage of completion, no empowerment to be bestowed, and no samaya to uphold. ""

[thaicurious]

You enjoy defaulting to your aforementioned perceived paradox which you express variously, now excerpting whatever snippet seems to conveniently justify it, even if possibly out of context. Perhaps you can find a different way of seeing.

Being utilitarian minded, the only purpose I see of getting off the wheel is one less mouth to feed. See my signature line on that.

You can use kundalini yoga, as I mentioned, to catch a glimpse but not to live in oneness which is simply not practical as it makes, as I said, living life here impossible. Similarly in dream yoga you can experience the self coming into being but not, of course, remembering anything before that. If there exists any sort of identifiable consciousness before being, it doesn't seem to translate back here for verifying, at least not in my experience. If not conscious in dreaming, then a nonlucid dreamer could get an inkling of the sensation through, as you mentioned above, being mindful of consciousness awakening from within sleep as the physical body awakens. In fact, such practice would probably help consciousness awaken during sleep itself.

"Most of our energy goes into upholding our importance. If we were capable of losing some of that importance, two extraordinary things would happen to us. One, we would free our energy from trying to maintain the illusory idea of our grandeur; and two, we would provide ourselves with enough energy to catch a glimpse of the actual grandeur of the universe." ~~Carlos Castaneda

[RandomSand]

The paradox I mention is the paradox of creation. -The ground of all arising arrays. Do you even believe in creation? -perhaps as it can't be "verified" back there in "dream land" you can only experience it via a lucid dream where you get a chance to manifest as consciousness. Dear me, you are a jealous one & I bet the paradox winds you up so much that you'd rather fantasize about prodigy than celebrate progeny. Dream on dreamer. Don't worry I'll pray you get reborn as a insect, at least, should I be able to do so.

To truly accept life - one must first accept death.

Edited March 1, 2014 by RandomSand

[thaicurious]

The paradox I mention is the paradox of creation. -The ground of all arising arrays. Do you even believe in creation? -perhaps as it can't be "verified" back there in "dream land" you can only experience it via a lucid dream where you get a chance to manifest as consciousness. Dear me, you are a jealous one & I bet the paradox winds you up so much that you'd rather fantasize about prodigy than celebrate progeny. Dream on dreamer. Don't worry I'll pray you get reborn as a insect, at least, should I be able to do so.

To truly accept life - one must first accept death.

Your level of presumption is off the scale. Seek professional psychological therapy before you hurt yourself and others. Best of luck to you.

[RandomSand]

If you that's what you feel needs to be done then I'd agree it would be very beneficial.

You know; everything you wrote make perfect sense in we assume that you actually died when you blacked-out, you just couldn't accept it or didn't realise it, and from there your dream experience was reality and reality was a dream... Therefore I addressed you as that which you described yourself to already be.

I'm willing to accept that it's viable you manifest as a body of light in you "normal state" and then mistake this dream as normal life to the extent a fresh cheese sandwich is obviously edible.

Edited March 1, 2014 by RandomSand

[RandomSand]

I think I have a constructed a good explanation of the ultimate structure. I'd welcome any feedback.

Point A - This is the outer form of the array.

Point B - This is the inner form of the array.

When we're in my normal life; we identify as part of Point A.

When we have a spiritual experience, such as Nirvana, Awakening, Kundlini, OBE, 3rd Eye Vision, Dream, Death, etc; Our conciousness is centred into Point B.

We find it so confusing...

We try, perhaps succeed, to recognise the non-duality of all forms of Point A --but we're missing Point B.

We try, perhaps succeed, to recognise, we naively hunt out, the forms of Point B in practice, or we experience the non-duality of Point B (eg Nirvana) --but at the expense of Point A.

Ultimate enlightenment is the unification of Points A & B.

The transcendence of all dualities.

The disappearance of the array.

I've been trying to build this model for some time.

This is a major milestone for RandomSand.

What a perfect model I have constructed. I must forget this structure. That much I know!!

Edited March 2, 2014 by RandomSand

[weary]

Random Sand: How many hours per night do you sleep, lately? I am asking because the theory building and the ideations are very similar to what I experienced myself after prolonged meditation practice a couple of years ago.

If I am right, your current state feels absolutely amazing, but it is not 'IT' and not sustainable, and it could make you do things you will regret when you once again observe the world from another perspective than your current one. Stay safe, and consider getting more sleep.

[sabaijai]

Going nowhere, closed.