Millers say Thai government owes them over a year in warehouse rentals

[namatjira]

the reds are dead zed

[MrSlatersParrot]

I love it the reds never appear on a thread about the rice scam, I am still waiting for GK to tell us what went wrong especially after his big post several years ago how successful the rice scam would be.

Well it ain't been sold yet.

It's a loss until it's sold right?

What about the fuel subsidy baht costing the government 170 billion baht per year? You don't hear many complaints about that.

Obviously wherever you come from you never heard of subsidies before, like the CAP?

There are reasons for the non sale of the rice but would you be interested?

Like maybe India flooding the market for instance?

The vietnamese cannot sell their rice.

Easy to criticize but not so easy to offer creditable opposition together with constructive policies unlike Suthep's call to reduce the minimum wage from 300 baht to 200 baht.

Delusional.

[MrSlatersParrot]

musical chairs, but one day it will stop.

somebody is going to win,

does not look like the rice farmers will.

the rich get richer and the poor get the picture

Another thai neo liberal thought he knew better, blew his whistle, didn't see the red card.

[Dogmatix]

It's funny that the government has just come out with a new plan to ask the millers to lend them the money to pay the farmers - without government guarantee of course because they are not entitled to give one as a caretaker government. But it looks like they have already been borrowing from the millers by taking long credit on the rice rentals.

[kimamey]

The trouble is it looks like they can't afford to look after the farmers. Even the government tried to lower the price last year but had to back off. What the farmers need is a sustainable long term policy to help them. The trouble is that doesn't look so tempting when you go to vote.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kikoman]

I love it the reds never appear on a thread about the rice scam, I am still waiting for GK to tell us what went wrong especially after his big post several years ago how successful the rice scam would be.

Seem like you miss post #50, he is as Red as they come,

Cheers

[kikoman]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

[fish fingers]

Ever heard of national Debt?

[englishoak]

Seems a good idea, the rice millers have the rice already they want it as payment instead of cash... fine just deduct it from stocks and it financially costs the gov nothing how easy is that ?

More sensible solutions like this please.

One major difficulty with this solution is agreeing on a price.

Not really its paid for at the current market rate, the gov takes the loss like any that calls a future bet badly... and move onto the next problem

[MAJIC]

Oh My God. As if it wasn't bad enough along come the Merry Millers. They will need to take a number soon as the queue is getting longer

"He compared farmers’ rice vouchers they received from selling rice to receiving cheques from the government and the cheques turn dud."

Huh?

Cue posts from Red-leaning TV-posters, blaming the year-old default to the millers/warehouse-operators, on the Electoral-Commission ?

Yes we know the apologists will be along shortly!

[MAJIC]

The only questions to be answered in this Rice Fiasco,is: " Is this Country Bankrupt"and if not why is it not able to pay the Farmers and all those involved in the Rice production their money? if such basic questions are not answered,I fear the worst!

A good guide to your solvency = Banks always throw loan money at you,when you don't really need it!

Edited February 6, 2014 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

"The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?"

Too many natural opportunists!

[GentlemanJim]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

It is not a bad idea to subsidize. HOWEVER, even you have to admit that the countries you have given as an example had systems that were transparent and where the payments made it to those who were supposed to get it. In contrast here, we have a system with no transparency, where the people who were supposed to get the money have not. The system has been full of lies and corruption and it looks like the best part of $20 Billion US has disappeared , yes that is $20 Billion. Now point out to me in the excellent examples you gave of working systems where any one of them can be compared with this crippler of a system in Thailand.

I had not seen this thread when it first came out and am frankly too shocked for words by the news in the OP. It is just too much to contemplate what Shinclan have done, and this does not even delve into the tablets and water management scams. Dear oh dear!!

[kikoman]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

"The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?"

Too many natural opportunists!

Do you prefer unnatural ones?

[kikoman]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

It is not a bad idea to subsidize. HOWEVER, even you have to admit that the countries you have given as an example had systems that were transparent and where the payments made it to those who were supposed to get it. In contrast here, we have a system with no transparency, where the people who were supposed to get the money have not. The system has been full of lies and corruption and it looks like the best part of $20 Billion US has disappeared , yes that is $20 Billion. Now point out to me in the excellent examples you gave of working systems where any one of them can be compared with this crippler of a system in Thailand.

I had not seen this thread when it first came out and am frankly too shocked for words by the news in the OP. It is just too much to contemplate what Shinclan have done, and this does not even delve into the tablets and water management scams. Dear oh dear!!

Check out Venezuela, Hugo made the poor count similar to what Thaksin did in 2001, same situation, rich could not win an election the country bitterly divided, rich against the poor all thought if they got rid of Hugo, the problem was over, same to what is happening in Thailand. If they get rid of the Shinowatra, there problem is over, Hugo died a year ago next month, his party is still in control.

What Hugo and Thaksin did is make the poor count, they made the poor realize their political power, the political situation will not change anytime in the near future! No matter if one agrees or disagrees with the process, it impacted Thailand for over a decade!

The rich crying over the financial loss not to the country but to the rich with Hugo subsidizing gas to all for as low as 4 US cents per gallon! How could the rich survive with him giving the country's natural resources away!

SAME SAME,

Cheers

Cheers

[EyesWideOpen]

Interesting move on the part of the millers. With the upcoming fall of the Yingluck government,

the rice scam will be fully investigated by the new government in order to apportion blame to

the Thaksin puppet government who orchestrated this mess. As the blame game starts,

the best strategy is to get out of the cross hairs. The government is broke, and the farmers

have no money. The simple question then becomes who the hell has the umpteen billions

of baht ? The millers keep being mentioned, so at this point think they are moving into damage

control....

[Mosha]

They might welcome Suthep taking the rice off their hands right now.

[Crushdepth]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

Other countries may pay subsidies on agricultural produce but that doesn't mean its a good idea. The world is trying to move away from market distorting policies because they are invariably counter productive as has been demonstrated here rather spectacularly by the rice scheme.

Taking out the 'kinks' won't save this scheme, it needs to be shut down. If we ignore the corruption and non-payment for a moment the scheme has still severely disrupted exports. There are better ways to assist farmers such cooperative approaches you mentioned that help farmers reduce costs and improve their negotiating power and competitiveness rather than paying them an artificially high price, which encourages inefficiency.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Crushdepth

[Ricardo]

The only questions to be answered in this Rice Fiasco,is: " Is this Country Bankrupt"and if not why is it not able to pay the Farmers and all those involved in the Rice production their money? if such basic questions are not answered,I fear the worst!

A good guide to your solvency = Banks always throw loan money at you,when you don't really need it!

Yep, my father once told me an old City-of-London saying, that "banks are people who will gladly sell you an umbrella, except when it starts raining" !

During the self-employed/own-business part of my own career, I borrowed considerable (at the time, to me) sums of money, which were always secured by at least 200% on relatively-solid assets such as property.

And I used to insist on visiting the bank-manager every six months, to present my latest accounts & forecasts, demonstrating my solid future-sales & advanced-deposits (lesson for the tablet-manufacturers there !), and how recent-sales had been ahead-of-forecast.

He once asked me, why I bothered to do this, and I explained that I wished, when his head-office instructed him at the start of the next recession to slash their lending & exposure to his weakest borrowers, to be seen as definitely one of the ones to not be on the hit-list ! He saw my point.

How on Earth the Thai government expect, to borrow B2.2-trillion from the domestic-banks over 50-years for the poorly-defined/costed/overseen infrastructure-plans, when they can't borrow petty-change for keeping the rice-scheme going, mystifies me !

[Ricardo]

Perhaps send the storage-invoices to Dubai, with an Overdue-for-Payment reminder ?

Just when you think the news about the rice-scheme can't possibly get any worse, lo-and-behold it does, yet again !

Why would you say it is getting worse, the middleman is the one driving up the cost of rice, The article smells of a rat or rats trying to take advantage of the unpaid farmers,

The quote he said for rice at 15,000 baht per ton only applies to Jasmine rice, as Jasmine rice is not grown locally the highest allowed price is 12,000 baht per ton here in Central Thailand and in our village top quality local rice for 11,000 baht a ton, I have heard some local were able to mortgage their rice for 12,000 baht per ton! some for lower quality rice about 9,000 baht per ton.

A red flag was his comment that the international market price of 8000 baht a ton is incorrect, the current market price for Thailand's 5% broken is $450.25 per ton a little over 14000 baht per ton, the 8000 baht quote is for 100% broken that market price is 8,505 baht per ton!.

The price for Vietnam rice of the same quality is presently at 12,660 baht a ton.

So he is manipulating the price of the rice.Check out the market prices yourself, if it is an issue!

Cheers

"Why would you say it is getting worse"

The government-default, in not paying the farmers themselves for the rice they delivered up-to-five months ago, has been known for three months or so.

But now there is this news of this other default, over a much longer period, to the millers who are influential in getting-out & influencing the vote, in their local areas.

I submit that this is worse news, for the government at least, and would also wonder whether it partly-explains the unprecedentedly-low turnout in the election last Sunday, in areas which previously were the government's heartlands and where there was no disruption to polling.

[tonytigerbkk]

This tread is not a balanced view of the situation by TV members.

I therefore believe that the usual outspoken red shirt apologists have not read this thread yet, as I am sure that there is a reasonable explanation of how this is Supeth’s fault and how this is all a conspiracy against the none corrupt, democratically voted government.

So, quick roll call: pipkins, millwall-fan , gerry1011, BlueNoseCodger, Prbkk, Spalpeen, where are you, your puppet master in Dubai needs your support in educating the non red shirt thugs on this board.

[GentlemanJim]

This tread is not a balanced view of the situation by TV members.

I therefore believe that the usual outspoken red shirt apologists have not read this thread yet, as I am sure that there is a reasonable explanation of how this is Supeth’s fault and how this is all a conspiracy against the none corrupt, democratically voted government.

So, quick roll call: pipkins, millwall-fan , gerry1011, BlueNoseCodger, Prbkk, Spalpeen, where are you, your puppet master in Dubai needs your support in educating the non red shirt thugs on this board.

Maybe this thread brings home the realisation that there is more than just the Farmers and Millers that wont get paid

[AleG]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

Yout argument is a fallacy, just because some other countries have subsidies that may or may not work doesn't mean that the Rice Scheme as it has been implemented is good in any way. The failure of this PTP policy speaks for itself, trying to point somewhere else for validation is simply obfuscating the issue. but if you must please show us how the USA or the EU use secret G2G deals as part of their policies, or refuse to divulge the statistics of how the money is spent, or how their programs are so unsustainable that they run out of money to maintain them, etc, etc...

[Crushdepth]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

Yout argument is a fallacy, just because some other countries have subsidies that may or may not work doesn't mean that the Rice Scheme as it has been implemented is good in any way. The failure of this PTP policy speaks for itself, trying to point somewhere else for validation is simply obfuscating the issue. but if you must please show us how the USA or the EU use secret G2G deals as part of their policies, or refuse to divulge the statistics of how the money is spent, or how their programs are so unsustainable that they run out of money to maintain them, etc, etc...

Guess who's family grows rice and thinks the world owes them a living.

[whybother]

Seems a good idea, the rice millers have the rice already they want it as payment instead of cash... fine just deduct it from stocks and it financially costs the gov nothing how easy is that ?

More sensible solutions like this please.

One major difficulty with this solution is agreeing on a price.

Not really its paid for at the current market rate, the gov takes the loss like any that calls a future bet badly... and move onto the next problem

The millers wouldn't take it at the current market rate if they can only sell it at the current market rate. They wouldn't make any money on it.

[AleG]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

Yout argument is a fallacy, just because some other countries have subsidies that may or may not work doesn't mean that the Rice Scheme as it has been implemented is good in any way. The failure of this PTP policy speaks for itself, trying to point somewhere else for validation is simply obfuscating the issue. but if you must please show us how the USA or the EU use secret G2G deals as part of their policies, or refuse to divulge the statistics of how the money is spent, or how their programs are so unsustainable that they run out of money to maintain them, etc, etc...

Guess who's family grows rice and thinks the world owes them a living.

Does the name start with "K" and end in "ikoman"?

[DLock]

Pay an objective auditing firm and the "Riddle of the Rice" will be solved in a month or so...

...but this will never happen. Far too embarrassing.

[billd766]

Simple, bring in the forensic accountants, follow the money, jail the guilty parties that benefited illegally from the rice program.

Then end the program it's just stupid.

I guess the Common Agricultural Policy is stupid too.

It's been around for 50 years now.

In a civilised society it pays to look after your farmers otherwise if they don't who's going to feed you?

You could always buy it on the international rice market for about 40% of the governments price including storage and transport costs and what a surprise you actually get fresh rice and little or no corruption.

Then again when has Thailand been a civilised society?

[MAJIC]

The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?

The USA subsidies 20 billion dollars a year on direct subsidies,2 billion 84 million on corn alone, without regard ti income (mostly corporate farms 73%) are triggered during periods of low prices, on corn,wheat, soybeans, cotton , rice and many others

EU in 2010 paid 39 billion euros in direct subsidies.

Japan pays $46.5 USD, billions in direct farm subsidies

Venezuela on the other hand sells regular gas to its citizens at (4 US cents a gallon) based on the fact that it is a natural resource and the citizens of the country have a right to use it cheaply!

The rice programs just need to be adjusted to take the kinks out, better to bypass the middle man and make direct country to country sales, the farmer set up cooperatives to collect and store their own rice and increase their income by storing and milling their own rice, here in the village the milling is offered free to mill a sack of rice at a time for the villagers personal consumption, white polished or brown rice!

It is all possible!

Cheers

"The subsidies programs have been implement successfully in many country's, why is it such a bad Idea in Thailand?"

Too many natural opportunists!

Do you prefer unnatural ones?

None at all would ensure the Rice Farmers got paid!

[rubl]

Pay an objective auditing firm and the "Riddle of the Rice" will be solved in a month or so...

...but this will never happen. Far too embarrassing.

"objective auditing firm" ? That would seem to exclude most if not all Thai auditing companies I think. Foreign companies might not want to be involved, an Australian chap got killed looking into a few NPL's 15 odd years ago.