Anyone have experience with Skandia International?

[fletchsmile]

I opened a Skandia 10 years savings plan some 12 years ago and paid in a total of £84000. When it finished I received back just over £103000 so I was happy with this. As the money was paid monthly you get an average of high and lows in the markets which suited me. If you put a chunk in when the markets are high or take it out when they are low you never really gain that is why I preferred the method of monthly payments. Over the 10 years I never had one problem with them

If your happy with 23% increase over 12 years that's the main thing. Being comfortable with your money is probably one of the most important things with any investment.

As it is in life being happy with what you have...

On those numbers though I suspect a lot of people's opinions would differ...

Cheers

Fletch

[wordchild]

In practice, IHT for the estate of a long term expat (with little or no assets in the UK) must be one of the harder taxes for the UK Revenue to collect. If your wife is UK non dom and the assets are in Thailand (or offshore from UK) and covered by a Thai will ,while there maybe a theoretical UK IHT liability in practice payment would be purely voluntary and I would really doubt the revenue would bother. The reality is, if there are no UK assets (no UK will) and no need for probate the revenue has no leverage to enforce anything.

Edited February 8, 2014 by wordchild

[Naam]

Hector is very reluctant to consider expats as non-domiciled.

please elaborate why.

Hector doesn't provide any guidelines on what it takes to become non-domiciled. He refuses to tell you if he considers you non-domiciled whilst living as an expat (personal experience). And he wants to grab as much tax from you as possible when you die - even if you've lived abroad for decades. Simply moving abroad to spend the rest of your life outside the UK is not sufficient, as many foreign families have found after their provider dies.

To quote from a KPMG document on the subject:

There is no precise definition [of domicile] but, broadly speaking, under English law, you are

domiciled in the country that is your permanent home. Everyone is born with a domicile of origin (usually taken

from their father) and this domicile is “sticky” and very difficult to lose. Someone born in the UK to a UK

domiciled father could remain UK domiciled even after living abroad for many years.

i assume "Hector" is for a Brit what "Schäuble" is for a German. question: what exactly can Hector grab when the assets are in another jurisdiction than U.K.?

his own balls?

[Naam]

I opened a Skandia 10 years savings plan some 12 years ago and paid in a total of £84000. When it finished I received back just over £103000 so I was happy with this. As the money was paid monthly you get an average of high and lows in the markets which suited me. If you put a chunk in when the markets are high or take it out when they are low you never really gain that is why I preferred the method of monthly payments. Over the 10 years I never had one problem with them

If your happy with 23% increase over 12 years that's the main thing. Being comfortable with your money is probably one of the most important things with any investment.

As it is in life being happy with what you have...

On those numbers though I suspect a lot of people's opinions would differ...

Cheers

Fletch

what are you insinuating Fletch? 23% is a very fair return. i have strong doubts that i will make 23% this year.

[malcolminthemiddle]

I opened a Skandia 10 years savings plan some 12 years ago and paid in a total of £84000. When it finished I received back just over £103000 so I was happy with this. As the money was paid monthly you get an average of high and lows in the markets which suited me. If you put a chunk in when the markets are high or take it out when they are low you never really gain that is why I preferred the method of monthly payments. Over the 10 years I never had one problem with them

If your happy with 23% increase over 12 years that's the main thing. Being comfortable with your money is probably one of the most important things with any investment.

As it is in life being happy with what you have...

On those numbers though I suspect a lot of people's opinions would differ...

Cheers

Fletch

JMS's contributions were paid monthly over 12 years not a lump sum. His aggregate simple annual rate of return was therefore just over 24% as Namm alluded to.

Edited February 8, 2014 by malcolminthemiddle

[Naam]

I opened a Skandia 10 years savings plan some 12 years ago and paid in a total of £84000. When it finished I received back just over £103000 so I was happy with this. As the money was paid monthly you get an average of high and lows in the markets which suited me. If you put a chunk in when the markets are high or take it out when they are low you never really gain that is why I preferred the method of monthly payments. Over the 10 years I never had one problem with them

If your happy with 23% increase over 12 years that's the main thing. Being comfortable with your money is probably one of the most important things with any investment.

As it is in life being happy with what you have...

On those numbers though I suspect a lot of people's opinions would differ...

Cheers

Fletch

JMS's contributions were paid monthly over 12 years not a lump sum. His aggregate simple annual rate of return was therefore just over 24% as Namm alluded to.

Naam did not allude anything but made a sarcastic remark. now let me add insult to injury because not only was JMS's average yield per annum abyssmally low (even when considering monthly payments) but a slightly above average intelligent German Shepheard or any of my two Dachshunds would have achieved a better result.

time to go for a late walk with my dogs. if i feel like i'll post tomorrow an accurate yield calculation, perhaps with added realistic comments for the investment period 2002-2012.

[dddave]

"There is in the Skandia brochure an oblique mention per se of insurance, so when the broker calls me again i will raise this issue with him."

Keep in mind that when you next talk to the "Advisor" (Commission based salesman) that he or she will have before them a set of manuals at hand or on a screen with carefully crafted replies designed to circumvent any question or objection you may raise.

Somebody asked: "Why would anybody buy these products?"

The answer is that ultimately, investment products are like any other products: Condominiums, automobiles, cruises; "It's not the product, it's the pitch!" A good salesman will convince you the sky is blue during a downpour.

The real point is, as so many here have said: do the research and learn the terminologies. Don't ask them, ask yourself and find the answers.

This thread is such a great example of that.

Edited February 9, 2014 by dddave

[Loiner]

Best advice for the OP is : DON'T DO IT.

Don't put your hard earned savings in any of these funds and don't listen to any of these local IFAs. Just ask some of the LM Investment Management victims who were all told their savings were safe - "Just like a bank." then lost the lot!

You are probably dealing with one of the same unscrupulous and unregulated locally based advisors, who are chasing their commissions. The fund manager will be taking their fees from the fund value whether the funds make money or not, so you loose out again. The whole industry is only slightly better than a pure scam.

[fletchsmile]

I opened a Skandia 10 years savings plan some 12 years ago and paid in a total of £84000. When it finished I received back just over £103000 so I was happy with this. As the money was paid monthly you get an average of high and lows in the markets which suited me. If you put a chunk in when the markets are high or take it out when they are low you never really gain that is why I preferred the method of monthly payments. Over the 10 years I never had one problem with them

If your happy with 23% increase over 12 years that's the main thing. Being comfortable with your money is probably one of the most important things with any investment.

As it is in life being happy with what you have...

On those numbers though I suspect a lot of people's opinions would differ...

Cheers

Fletch

JMS's contributions were paid monthly over 12 years not a lump sum. His aggregate simple annual rate of return was therefore just over 24% as Namm alluded to.

I just thought it more polite not to calculate an IRR or compare to what someone would have got from cash or to comment on any form risk adjusted return

An annualised rate of return is nothing like the 24% you mention. If you're struggling with a proper IRR calc or annualised return add 1 to the number of months and divide by two then convert back to years for a crude approximation - or even just half the no.of years, i.e first contribution is there for whole term, last is hardly there at all - so a simple somewhere in the middle Malcom would help you approximate. Divide the return by that number of years is a crude approx. Nowhere close to 24% as a "aggregate simple annual rate of return".

I think you also completely missed Naam's humour - I thought the smiley would have given you a clue

Cheers Fletch

Edited February 9, 2014 by fletchsmile

[JSixpack]

Only allows investment in Unit Trusts/OEICS (funds) - not lower cost alternatives such as Investment Trusts and ETFs.

Yes they do. Maybe it depends on the Scamdia product.

Really? I had a Skandia (not International) account a few years ago. It only provided for investments in funds. Now looking at both the Skandia International website and the Skandia UK one, there's no reference that I can see to holding equities at all. Can you provide a bit more detail, or possibly a relevant link?

You can choose from a wide range of assets from all over the world. These include

collective investment funds or unit trusts agreed by Royal Skandia; bank accounts;

and stocks and shares quoted on a recognised stock exchange. Plus, subject to our

approval, you can add fixed-interest securities, multi-currency deposits, hedge funds,

structured notes, exchange-traded funds and other alternative investments.

--http://www.skandiainternational.com/global/documents/other/sk7697_eb_client_brochure_discerning_investor.pdf

Edited February 9, 2014 by JSixpack

[fletchsmile]

Only allows investment in Unit Trusts/OEICS (funds) - not lower cost alternatives such as Investment Trusts and ETFs.

Yes they do. Maybe it depends on the Scamdia product.

Really? I had a Skandia (not International) account a few years ago. It only provided for investments in funds. Now looking at both the Skandia International website and the Skandia UK one, there's no reference that I can see to holding equities at all. Can you provide a bit more detail, or possibly a relevant link?

You can choose from a wide range of assets from all over the world. These include

collective investment funds or unit trusts agreed by Royal Skandia; bank accounts;

and stocks and shares quoted on a recognised stock exchange. Plus, subject to our

approval, you can add fixed-interest securities, multi-currency deposits, hedge funds,

structured notes, exchange-traded funds and other alternative investments.

--http://www.skandiainternational.com/global/documents/other/sk7697_eb_client_brochure_discerning_investor.pdf

It depends on the type of account you have AyG. A collective investment bond - CIB - limits you to funds and currencies as you say. An executive bond EIB allows shares etc and a wider range. If I recall the entry points are higher for the EIB (GBP 50k vs 25k for CIB)

Cheers

Fletch

[JMS]

Fletch it was a 10 year plan paying £700pm

[Misty]

Fletch it was a 10 year plan paying £700pm

GBP700 per month x 120 months = GBP84,000 (10 years)

If the principal + return withdrawn at the end of 144 months (12 years) is GBP 103,000, a quick IRR (internal rate of return) calculation on the investment works out to 2.85% per year.

To compare this with a USD return during the same period, you'd could convert each GBP cashflow to USD at the prevailing exchange rate over the course of the investment, and recalculate. I'm too lazy to do that, but my guess is the equivalent USD IRR would be somewhat lower, given what the GBP:USD exchange rate did during that period.

[mimithewoof]

Best advice for the OP is : DON'T DO IT.

Don't put your hard earned savings in any of these funds and don't listen to any of these local IFAs. Just ask some of the LM Investment Management victims who were all told their savings were safe - "Just like a bank." then lost the lot!

You are probably dealing with one of the same unscrupulous and unregulated locally based advisors, who are chasing their commissions. The fund manager will be taking their fees from the fund value whether the funds make money or not, so you loose out again. The whole industry is only slightly better than a pure scam.

Scandia, Friends Provident and the rest of the motley crew of insurance companies are all the same - scam merchants preying on less than financially savvy expats in the full knowledge that their commission-hungry salesmen contacts are working illegally in our communities. Don't touch any of them with the proverbial barge pole!

I did, unfortunately, when I first arrived here, via a local Chiang Mai FA who left for the UK last year just after the LM scandal broke and hasn't yet returned. Same story, no mention of insurance wrappers, charges, commissions, etc - I have no dependents so would have refused on the insurance basis. I insisted on a five year term - when the paperwork came through I found I was locked in for eight years. The usurious multiple charges had not been explained nor had almost anything else relevant to an informed choice, and the salesman guaranteed a £5,000 gain per annum.

Yes, guys, I was that stupid!

Worse yet, he'd handed the 'management' of my £100,000 to a well-known BKK firm who ignored me for four years in spite of my emails and letters. When they finally managed to contact me, the investment had made a small profit after recovering from losses during the crash, so I withdrew that immediately, then discovered later that they'd changed the bond for another and charged me again.

During the last two years, I've withdrawn more capital from Friends Provident, although they've been far less than helpful in meeting my request, even when I needed cash for my husband's operation. The term now has eight months to run before I can withdraw the remainder without charges, but I've just found out that the BKK firm has locked me into a five year bond with high redemption charges two years ago without my knowledge, even although I'd made it very clear to them I wanted out after the eight years were up or sooner. When I withdraw what's left later this year, it's going to cost me several thousands to get out of the new bond, or so I was told.

I've lost around 15 per cent of the initial investment - probably more by now - I have no idea as, again, the BKK firm are not contacting me.

The moral of this and the numerous other sad tales is simple - don't EVER allow ANY so-called FAs in Thailand or any other popular expat haven get anywhere near your savings, as you have no legal recourse after you realise you've been had more than once!

The UK's Financial Conduct Authority is investigating exactly this scandal, and has put out several warnings on the subject to investors. Unfortunately, that doesn't help expats who've already fallen foul of the practice.

[liddelljohn]

About 20 years ago , I put £40,000 into a Royal Skandia (scamdia), structured low risk product and same amount into a Standard life product both recommended by a respected UK IFA , ha thats a joke , over 7 years the stock markets and indexes that those funds invested in 50% but both products lost me over the same period £25,000 , I cashed in both products got back £43,870 from the original £80,000 and sued the IFA ,Royal Skandia and Standard Life as i realised that the products were so loaded with extra fee's costs etc they could never pay a return actually got back most of my original stake and legal costs plus interest , when the Ombudsman agreed with me ,

less trusting and more sceptical since then i manage my own investments , dont use any so called professional advisers , and stay clear of mutual funds unless the charging fees are very low and totally transparent ,I make mistakes sometimes but they are mine , I buy shares , some Investment trusts and a few select specialist funds for markets I dont have time to study .

[malcolminthemiddle]

I just thought it more polite not to calculate an IRR or compare to what someone would have got from cash or to comment on any form risk adjusted return

Dear Fletch and Namm,

You are of course right. I consider myself duly admonished.

[R123]

At the time I started this thread I was believing the Skandia Bond was the way to go. Thanks to so many useful, incisive and astute posts- and other research- my eyes have been opened.

I want to again thank everyone who have taken the trouble to post here in particular: worldchild, AyG, Misty, Malcolm in the Middle(5*) fletchsmile, JMS dddave Loiner, mimithewoolf(5*) liddelljohn and everyone else if not specifically named.

Of course any further input is gratefully received.

[Naam]

I just thought it more polite not to calculate an IRR or compare to what someone would have got from cash or to comment on any form risk adjusted return

Dear Fletch and Namm,

You are of course right. I consider myself duly admonished.

ego te absolvo! you are excused Malcolm. sh** happens

[malcolminthemiddle]

Getting back to the OP.

The point is that many people do not have the knowledge or inclination for investment self management. They have to rely on the advice of others or leave their money in the bank.

Such investors are looking for reasonable annual returns of say 5 – 8% over the medium to long term and are willing to take a level of risk and pay reasonable charges to achieve this level of return. Succession planning may also be a key requirement.

Choosing underlying funds which determine performance is always subjective irrespective of who makes that decision. If the investor allows the IFA to choose them the investor has little reason to complain if performance does not live up to expectations.

The principal issue is that some of the product providers and IFAs who offer these products are jointly disingenuous and intentionally mislead the investor in order to make the deal.

The investor is then stuck with a product that they never intended.

Edited February 10, 2014 by malcolminthemiddle

[wordchild]

Getting back to the OP.

The point is that many people do not have the knowledge or inclination for investment self management. They have to rely on the advice of others or leave their money in the bank.

Such investors are looking for reasonable annual returns of say 5 – 8% over the medium to long term and are willing to take a level of risk and pay reasonable charges to achieve this level of return. Succession planning may also be a key requirement.

Choosing underlying funds which determine performance is always subjective irrespective of who makes that decision. If the investor allows the IFA to choose them the investor has little reason to complain if performance does not live up to expectations.

The principal issue is that some of the product providers and IFAs who offer these products are jointly disingenuous and intentionally mislead the investor in order to make the deal.

The investor is then stuck with a product that they never intended.

this is very true, however if you invest through a structure such as the Skandia bond you are guaranteeing yourself sub-par returns (due to the high level of expenses) whatever you invest in. You are also investing into something that can be expensive to get out of should you need your money earlier than planned.

Edited February 11, 2014 by wordchild