Aeon Bank now charge 150 B ATM fee

[muchogra]

We were only recently told by our daughter that each time we used Aeon, whilst free here, was charged USD18.5 from our account on the other end. Well, with the charge from Aeon now, we will not use it again!

Since we are only allowed to name and shame US banks here at TV, please tell us the name of the bank that charged you $18.50 for ATM withdrawals

Morgan Chase Visa card on a B20,000 withdrawal!

[JimGant]

Since we are only allowed to name and shame US banks here at TV, please tell us the name of the bank that charged you $18.50 for ATM withdrawals

Morgan Chase Visa card on a B20,000 withdrawal!

Yeah, Chase has always been at the head of the list for gouging. According to the below link, the $18.50 accounts for only the 3% gouge -- should have had an additional $5 flat fee attached. But, if there is such a thing as a Morgan Chase debit card *and* a Chase debit card, then maybe this explains the disparity (flyerguide doesn't seem to have heard of the Morgan Chase variety).

http://www.flyerguide.com/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

A 3% foreign currency fee charged by a major U.S. bank, these days, is nothing out of the ordinary.

If the poster did, as previously indicated, the transaction at AEON prior to them joining the 150 baht fee club, then there would have been no extra fee on the Thai end...although there would be now, a bit less than $5.

And as Jim points out, the Flyer's Guide website says Chase itself also charges its own $5 fee for foreign ATM use, in addition to the 3% foreign currency fee.

So today, that same Chase debit card transaction at a Thai bank would likely cost $18.50 for the 3% FCF, plus Chase's $5 fee for using a foreign ATM, plus the Thai bank's almost $5 fee for using a non Thai bank card. That's approaching THIRTY DOLLARS in fees for a single 20K baht ATM withdrawal.

BTW, the FlyerGuide website is out of date as regards BofA. So it would seem that both BofA and Chase are now at $5 plus 3% for foreign ATM withdrawals for their basic checking accounts.

[Pib]

So today, that same Chase debit card transaction at a Thai bank would likely cost $18.50 for the 3% FCF, plus Chase's $5 fee for using a foreign ATM, plus the Thai bank's almost $5 fee for using a non Thai bank card. That's approaching THIRTY DOLLARS in fees for a single 20K baht ATM withdrawal.

I expect above summary would give any banker an orgasim.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-I9500)

[Groongthep]

I certainly share everyone's dislike of bank service fees but think it should be noted that fees are now the primary method in which banks generate revenue. In other words, that's the primary way they make their money. In the "old" days banks made their money through the difference between the higher interest rates they charged for loans compared to the lower interest rates paid on deposits. In recent years however interest rates have been so low many banks struggled to stay afloat using just this method. Then they dicovered the cash cow of charging fees for everything which more than made up the difference. As interest rates are now rising do you think that they will lower their fees? I wouldn't bet on it. They are pirates.

This profit through fees system is particularly angering since, according to The Economist, banks make a considerably higher percentage of profit on each dollar spent than even the big oil companies. This is also reflected in share price. Click on over to any finance site on your browser and display the chart over the last 2 years comparing BoA share price to that of Exxonmobil. You'll see that the bank shares have doubled which is about 5 times more than the appreciation of the XOM shares.

If you are an American and have any connection to the military whatsoever, even if through a relative, open an account at USAA and get their debit card. As mentioned by many others, their card reimburses ATM fees charged by other banks and their FTF are lower than most.

if you have some extra money to invest, BoA stock has been doing well. I do have an account with them because of the abundance of BoA ATMs in the US and their online banking website is unsurpassed for ease of use and versatility but I would never use one of their cards overseas.

[Groongthep]

If you live in Thailand either retired or working the obvious solution to the ATM fee problem is to open an account at a Thai bank. If you are like me however and simply come to Thailand often (I am a merchant seaman and work a 60 day at sea 58 days off schedule.) opening an account at a Thai bank is very difficult at best.There is another thread on this subject of non-resident foreigners opening accounts at Thai banks where some claim they have done it, but I spent a whole day in Bangkok once going from Thai bank to bank and was rejected at all of them so I have given up on that idea.

What I have done my last two stays was go back to the old method of just bringing lots of cash. Where I stay has a secure safe deposit box so I have no fear of theft. In Bangkok anyway, (I cannot speak for outside the capitol) the Super Rich Money Exchange off Rachdamri and the Vasu Exchange on Sukhumvit give better rates on cash than you'll get at any ATM and there is of course no bank fees. I can exchange as much as I want then simply take the thai currecy out of my safe box as necessary.

[stormstereo]

My 2 cents,

Back in 2003 I stayed in Bangkok for a longer time. I had no problems opening an account with Bangkok Bank at first try. I lived close to Saphan Taksin BTS, so naturally I visited the branch between the BTS and Robinson department store. I transfered a chunk of money and sifted from that account using the Bangkok Bank debit card.

I might return to study in Bkk for a while. This time, I will bring a card from home (MasterCard). I did my research and found the only bank/account/card in my country, that does not charge to withdraw in any other country. Additionally, they do not charge a conversion fee, nor do they have their own conversion rates. It's the best deal that can be had, me thinks. In Bkk, I plan to use Citibank at Asoke. They do not charge the 150-180 (yet) and have a 20 000 B limit.

And as a measure of safety, the banks online tools let me control where the card can be used. I've never seen that before.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[Groongthep]

In Bkk, I plan to use Citibank at Asoke. They do not charge the 150-180 (yet) and have a 20 000 B limit.

Are you still sure about Citibank at Asoke? Last September when I used the ATM there it was indeed free but upon my next return in February a screen popped up informing me there would be a 150 baht charge.

[Carmine6]

A 3% foreign currency fee charged by a major U.S. bank, these days, is nothing out of the ordinary.

If the poster did, as previously indicated, the transaction at AEON prior to them joining the 150 baht fee club, then there would have been no extra fee on the Thai end...although there would be now, a bit less than $5.

And as Jim points out, the Flyer's Guide website says Chase itself also charges its own $5 fee for foreign ATM use, in addition to the 3% foreign currency fee.

So today, that same Chase debit card transaction at a Thai bank would likely cost $18.50 for the 3% FCF, plus Chase's $5 fee for using a foreign ATM, plus the Thai bank's almost $5 fee for using a non Thai bank card. That's approaching THIRTY DOLLARS in fees for a single 20K baht ATM withdrawal.

BTW, the FlyerGuide website is out of date as regards BofA. So it would seem that both BofA and Chase are now at $5 plus 3% for foreign ATM withdrawals for their basic checking accounts.

One of the dumber parts of Dodd-Frank (among many) was that banks could no longer charge appropriate interest and fees for the worst credit risks and least responsible people. So overdraft fees, default interest rates, late payment fees, and other things were limited. It also limited the swipe fees that can be charged to merchants for debit transactions. So banks did what would be expected and immediately closed the riskiest credit card accounts, and reduced credit limits on others. And to cover the increased costs they can't recoup on the remaining lower tier credits and swipe fees, they spread the fees to everyone else they could. Mainly affects unusual transactions like foreign transactions where people may complain, but it won't be an every month type of complaining.

Some cards now even charge a fee for foreign transactions done in US dollars, like airplane tickets bought from a foreign carrier, though priced in US dollars.

[stormstereo]

In Bkk, I plan to use Citibank at Asoke. They do not charge the 150-180 (yet) and have a 20 000 B limit.

Are you still sure about Citibank at Asoke? Last September when I used the ATM there it was indeed free but upon my next return in February a screen popped up informing me there would be a 150 baht charge.

Yes, I visited March and April. No charge. Used a MasterCard issued in Sweden.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[ubonrthai]

Update: Bangkok Bank is now charging a fee when doing a cash advance with a foreign debit card inside the branch. They don't tell you but the difference between the initial "notification of a transaction" email I get from my bank and what the transaction later actually shows up as, is the fee amount. The advantage still remains a higher withdrawal limit than at an ATM. Any idea what the maximum cash advance amount is?

I assume this will be the same for all banks.

[Pib]

It may not be a fee...maybe the exchange rate changed between the initial charge to your account and the final posting of the charge. Visa exchange rates do change every 24 hours and Mastercard rates sometimes twice a day. I done three counter withdrawals using my foreign card over the last 2 months at a Bangkok Bank branch with no fee.

Sent from my Samsung S4

[Pib]

Update: Bangkok Bank is now charging a fee when doing a cash advance with a foreign debit card inside the branch. They don't tell you but the difference between the initial "notification of a transaction" email I get from my bank and what the transaction later actually shows up as, is the fee amount. The advantage still remains a higher withdrawal limit than at an ATM. Any idea what the maximum cash advance amount is?

I assume this will be the same for all banks.

It may not be a fee...maybe the exchange rate changed between the initial charge to your account and the final posting of the charge. Visa exchange rates do change every 24 hours and Mastercard rates sometimes twice a day. I done three counter withdrawals using my foreign card over the last 2 months at a Bangkok Bank branch with no fee.

Sent from my Samsung S4

Now that I'm back home on the 'puter, I just wanted to add a little more to above. Now I've been doing my counter withdrawals using a "credit" card--a no foreign transaction fee and no cash advance credit card...and then I log onto my credit card account after doing the withdrawal and make an advance payment to pay off the cash advance in full which prevents any interest charge also. My Bangkok Bank branch will do a counter withdrawal for a credit card but not a debit card...with a debit card they just point you to their ATM.

Anyway, before I do a withdrawal using my Visa card I always check out the Visa exchange rate in effect and determine if I want to go do the counter withdrawal/cash advance today or maybe wait and see if the rate is better tomorrow. As mentioned, Visa rates change once a day, midnight U.S. Eastern Time which is 11am Thailand time right now until the U.S. goes off Daylight saving time then it will be high noon Thailand time. On my first two withdrawals the charge that hit my credit card account matched the Visa exchange rate exactly. But on the third/latest withdrawal a few weeks ago I noticed it didn't...instead it matched the next day's Visa rate exactly. On the surface a person might think Bangkok Bank applied a fee, but no it was just an exchange rate change caused by the final posting of the charge slipping into the next day where the exchange rate was different....and this particular exchange rate change made about a $12 difference in the charge hitting my account as the rate changed from 32.41 to 32.22 I think without looking it up again. But as mentioned the charge hitting my account matched the Visa rate "exactly"...unfortunately for me it was the next day's lower rate...it was not any Bangkok Bank fee.

So, although Bangkok Bank may indeed be charging a counter withdrawal fee now if they are I expect that it would clearly show up as a separate fee hitting your account along with the withdrawal and not them giving you a lower exchange rate, because banks use the Visa/Mastercard/AmEx/etc., exchange rates...they do not use their own rates unless they try to fool you into accepting their DCC rate which will surely be lower by several percent. And of course there's the possibility of your "card-issuing" bank applying the fee...not the Thai bank or Thai bank ATM you are using since most cards do charge a foreign transaction fee...be sure to take that in consideration. I'll probably do another counter withdrawal late next week so at that time I will get to see if there is a fee applied for counter withdrawals now, because so far on the three I've done over the last few months there has not been any local bank fee.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Pib

[JimGant]

ATM transactions -- indeed, I believe, all PIN transactions -- are so-called "online" transactions and thus occur near real time. Credit card transactions (and debit card swipe and sign transactions) are "offline," and process as batch transactions, thus not finalizing for a day or two. Presumably the above applies to over-the-counter-transactions, i.e., PIN or swipe and sign dictates which day's rate you'll get.

I haven't used my USAA MC 1% FTF debit/ATM card in several years (preferring, obviously, my no fee Schwab card). But when I did (ATM PIN mode), I noticed the "pending" charge was in synch with the prevailing MC rate without any fees -- but when it finalized the next day, the finalized charge now included the 1% FTF. Never figured why they would do this, as this was a completely unnecessary step, since all the applicable numbers were already known real time. Not sure if this is how it's done today or not..... But if it is, such an online transaction could explain the: "They don't tell you but the difference between the initial "notification of a transaction" email I get from my bank and what the transaction later actually shows up as..." Or, if an offline transaction, as Pib points out, would normally have different exchange rates between the "pending" and "finalized" numbers.

Now a bank shouldn't care whether the over-the-counter transaction is online or offline (debit or credit mode), because, unlike a merchant selling something, the bank will NOT be docked an interchange fee, as it's not selling anything at a profit from which such an interchange fee would make sense. [Merchants care whether debit or credit mode, because credit mode costs them more (compare in the linked chart, below). This is why, in the States, you'll find swiping a card requires several extra actions to get out of the debit mode to the credit mode -- the merchant wants it to be more difficult.]

Instead, the bank receives a so-called reverse interchange fee, i.e. it is PAYED, not charged, for using plastic in a cash disbursement transaction vice a sale transaction. Look at the bottom of the chart in this link:

https://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/visa-usa-interchange-reimbursement-fees-april2013.pdf

Note the last item: "Cash Disbursement - Manual" (this is defined, on the similar Canadian Visa chart, as "face-to-face" -- i.e. over-the-counter.) And, unlike earlier parts of the interchange chart, where debit and credit differences are delineated, no distinction is made between credit and debit modes for cash disbursement. Presumably, then, the banker gets the same reverse interchange fee for either mode.....

........ which is 122 baht for a 20,000 baht cash disbursement. Hardly a profit center -- strictly a goodwill gesture.

And note the difference for an ATM transaction, on whether the ATM owner charges a fee or not (20,000 baht, 32 FX rate): 46 baht reverse interchange fee for an ATM that does charge -- but 100 baht for one that doesn't. Thus, no real incentive for the ATM owner to not charge the 150/180 baht fee. [Note: this chart is for within the US, so I don't know the real numbers for Thailand. But the concept's the same.]

I can't find a similar chart for MasterCard. But several articles have pointed out that they're more niggardly in their reverse interchange fees -- much to the delight of the issuing banks that end up paying these fees -- but probably why we see (or saw) the higher 180 baht fee for MC vs. the 150 baht fee for Visa.

Anyway, if you're able to get an over-the-counter withdrawal, it's not because your banker is licking his chops.

[Pib]

Jim,

Excellent explanation. My first two counter withdrawals using my Visa credit card were PIN "and" sign transactions snd I got the Visa rate in effect at that time. But the third transaction was a sign transaction only...no PIN used...and I got the next day Visa rate. For whatever reason the third transaction took longer to post...maybe because a PIN was not used.

Sent from my Samsung S4

[Bucko]

That 1966 hit song "I fought the law..." comes to mind. But with a word change...

I fought the banks....and the banks won.

I guess the humble traveler's cheque may make a little comeback in LOS (especially if you can get them free of charge and in large denominations such as $500). However, I encountered a bit of resistance for the first time when I recently tried to cash in my AMEX traveler's cheque at a Bangkok Bank branch, but the teller accepted after consulting her supervisor.

I agree, the 30 baht fee is largely offset by the better exchange rate on TC vs cash, especially with the 500$ TC.

Never had issues cashing one, and I always check all the banks for the best rate!

I thought I read somewhere on another thread That t/c's were going to be upped from 30b to 150b also ?? anyone cashed some recently ?? if it is still 30b--I want to get some for my trip in July

[Pib]

The cashing fee now per cheque is 150 baht plus 3 baht govt stamp duty for a total of 153 baht; before it was 30+3 totaling 33 per cheque. Most/all banks implemented the higher fee in March 2014. Had a friend visit with travelers cheques last month...she cashed them at two different banks...both banks charged the 153 baht per cheque fee.

Sent from my Samsung S4

[Bucko]

The cashing fee now per cheque is 150 baht plus 3 baht govt stamp duty for a total of 153 baht; before it was 30+3 totaling 33 per cheque. Most/all banks implemented the higher fee in March 2014. Had a friend visit with travelers cheques last month...she cashed them at two different banks...both banks charged the 153 baht per cheque fee.

Sent from my Samsung S4

Thanks Pib --- I suppose it was inevitable

[Pib]

The cashing fee now per cheque is 150 baht plus 3 baht govt stamp duty for a total of 153 baht; before it was 30+3 totaling 33 per cheque. Most/all banks implemented the higher fee in March 2014. Had a friend visit with travelers cheques last month...she cashed them at two different banks...both banks charged the 153 baht per cheque fee.

Sent from my Samsung S4

Thanks Pib --- I suppose it was inevitable

If you decide to do travelers cheques just be sure to get BIG denominations to minimize the fee impact. Example: a 153 baht cashing fee on a $100 (or equivalent currency) cheque equates to giving almost 5% of your cheque to the bank...but a 153 baht cashing fee on a $500 cheque equates to giving approx 1% of your cheque to the bank.

[55Jay]

FWIW, Bangkok Post website front page (right side margin) has a survey you can vote on regarding foreign card ATM fees.

You can also see the current vote status which, for the majority, won't be surprising.

Edit add: Started 17 May, ends tomorrow, 19 May.

Edited May 18, 2014 by 55Jay

[Pib]

FWIW, Bangkok Post website front page (right side margin) has a survey you can vote on regarding foreign card ATM fees.

You can also see the current vote status which, for the majority, won't be surprising.

Edit add: Started 17 May, ends tomorrow, 19 May.

Thanks....I just voted...I see the current vote results show 95% of the folks voting classify the fees as excessive.

What I can't believe is 2.6% voted the fees as reasonable and 2.6% voted the fees as cheap....I figure these are banksters voting in the survey.

Go and vote folks...it's on the Bangkok Post front page.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Pib

[Pib]

Update: Bangkok Bank is now charging a fee when doing a cash advance with a foreign debit card inside the branch. They don't tell you but the difference between the initial "notification of a transaction" email I get from my bank and what the transaction later actually shows up as, is the fee amount. The advantage still remains a higher withdrawal limit than at an ATM. Any idea what the maximum cash advance amount is?

I assume this will be the same for all banks.

It may not be a fee...maybe the exchange rate changed between the initial charge to your account and the final posting of the charge. Visa exchange rates do change every 24 hours and Mastercard rates sometimes twice a day. I done three counter withdrawals using my foreign card over the last 2 months at a Bangkok Bank branch with no fee.

Sent from my Samsung S4

Did my fourth counter withdrawal at a Bangkok Bank branch yesterday using my U.S. Visa card....no fee charged as in the previous three withdrawals. No fee on the receipt or the charge hitting my U.S. account. The exchange rate given matched the Visa exchange rate.

[55Jay]

OTC debit card w/d at my small BKB branch still going ok too.

After the results of the Bangkok Post ATM fee survey are finalized, the banking cartel will feel guilty and do away with the fees, so all this hoop jumping will be over soon.

Right?

Yeah, right!

[Pib]

OTC debit card w/d at my small BKB branch still going ok too.

After the results of the Bangkok Post ATM fee survey are finalized, the banking cartel will feel guilty and do away with the fees, so all this hoop jumping will be over soon.

Right?

Yeah, right!

Jay, You need to adjust your medication as I think Thai banksters feel farangs should have no problem paying a Bt150-180 fee for the privilege of using their foreign cards in their ATMs.

[55Jay]

OTC debit card w/d at my small BKB branch still going ok too.

After the results of the Bangkok Post ATM fee survey are finalized, the banking cartel will feel guilty and do away with the fees, so all this hoop jumping will be over soon.

Right?

Yeah, right!

Jay, You need to adjust your medication as I think Thai banksters feel farangs should have no problem paying a Bt150-180 fee for the privilege of using their foreign cards in their ATMs.

Did you think I was serious?

[Pib]

Nope.

Sent from my Samsung S4

[4evermaat]

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The cashing fee now per cheque is 150 baht plus 3 baht govt stamp duty for a total of 153 baht; before it was 30+3 totaling 33 per cheque. Most/all banks implemented the higher fee in March 2014. Had a friend visit with travelers cheques last month...she cashed them at two different banks...both banks charged the 153 baht per cheque fee.

Sent from my Samsung S4

Dam. The banking cartel here is raping tourists and expats outright. And people wonder why cryptocurrencies will become more important as an alternative means to move funds around.

Is there a separate thread on this?

FWIW, Bangkok Post website front page (right side margin) has a survey you can vote on regarding foreign card ATM fees.

You can also see the current vote status which, for the majority, won't be surprising.

Edit add: Started 17 May, ends tomorrow, 19 May.

Thanks....I just voted...I see the current vote results show 95% of the folks voting classify the fees as excessive.

What I can't believe is 2.6% voted the fees as reasonable and 2.6% voted the fees as cheap....I figure these are banksters voting in the survey.

Go and vote folks...it's on the Bangkok Post front page.

Missed the vote. Is there a link to the poll?

[Langsuan Man]

Missed the vote. Is there a link to the poll?

I think it was removed since it referred to the website of the other English Language daily that is a forbidden here at TV

[elzach]

Let's resurrect this topic. All of us are aware now that MC charges more dollars, euro, pounds etc for baht vs Visa. But most have brushed it off. I have looked it up many times and consistently MC charges 55-75 basis points over Visa (0.55-0.75%).

To make it plain, on 1000 baht this past Monday for example, MC will charge you USD 31.05, Visa will charge you USD 30.88. On a modest let's say 30,000 baht expense/month x 12, you will pay an extra $67 a year, just for the "privilege" of using Mastercard over Visa. Basically you are paying an extra annual fee if you use MC abroad.

Btw, this is all IN ADDITION to whatever extra Foreign Transaction Fee your bank imposes.

I'm tempted to contact the Fed, OCC, NY State Banking Dept over this. Anyone with me? Keep in mind that MC and Visa are "prior offenders", having settled multimillion dollar charges on FTF back in 2002-2003 I believe. I think the regulators might be more inclined to research into it if several people send them an inquiry at the same time.

Edited June 26, 2014 by elzach

[Pib]

Let's resurrect this topic. All of us are aware now that MC charges more dollars, euro, pounds etc for baht vs Visa. But most have brushed it off. I have looked it up many times and consistently MC charges 55-75 basis points over Visa (0.55-0.75%).

To make it plain, on 1000 baht this past Monday for example, MC will charge you USD 31.05, Visa will charge you USD 30.88. On a modest let's say 30,000 baht expense/month x 12, you will pay an extra $67 a year, just for the "privilege" of using Mastercard over Visa. Basically you are paying an extra annual fee if you use MC abroad.

Btw, this is all IN ADDITION to whatever extra Foreign Transaction Fee your bank imposes.

I'm tempted to contact the Fed, OCC, NY State Banking Dept over this. Anyone with me? Keep in mind that MC and Visa are "prior offenders", having settled multimillion dollar charges on FTF back in 2002-2003 I believe. I think the regulators might be more inclined to research into it if several people send them an inquiry at the same time.

Before you call anyone you might want to recheck your numbers. I just looked up the Visa and Mastercard exchange rates for 23 Jun/this past Monday and they were Bt32.38/USD for Visa and Bt32.21/USD for Mastercard. Nothing close to those approx Bt31/USD ratess you gave....where did you get your exchange rates? Maybe you are adding in some fee...like a "card-issuing bank" foreign transaction percentage fee and/or a flat fee per foreign transaction that effectively lowers the exchange rate. And if you are adding any local ATM fee like Thai banks/AEON charge on foreign cards, well, that's not Visa/MC charging the fee. And hopefully you didn't accept a local ATM offer to use their Bank Rate, Home Rate, or some other warm and fuzzy name which is nothing more than a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) rate set by that local bank which will probably be around 3 to 4% lower than the full Visa/MC exchange rate.

I agree the MC rate is "usually" a little lower than Visa based on my experience...by "usually" I mean something over 50% of the time...whether it 51%, 60%, etc., I couldn't say...but there are quite a few times when the MC rate is higher than Visa. Now the Visa 32.38 and MC 32.21 rates I gave above is their exchange rates "before" any foreign transaction fee is applied/not absorbed by your "card-issuing" bank. If you want to complain to a federal agency about card exchange rates maybe instead complain about the high foreign transaction fees "many banks apply" to their Visa/MC logo credit and debit cards which effectively lowers the exchange rate---that's where the real bankster activity is occurring.