High speed train proposals ready for the next Thai administration

[JRSoul]

HSR is a passenger service. It will not carry freight as that would require an upgrading of the track to bear the extra loads, and because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

I would suggest HSR track upgrading is exactly what will happen, Thailand has 0 so not a problem if installed from the outset. http://www.worldfinance.com/infrastructure-investment/project-management/high-speed-rail-the-future-of-freight

If you have any link to such a proposal, I would be happy to see it. Except for a couple of idiots proposing stops for fruit and vegetables, there has been NO suggestion of a HSR freight service because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

[noitom]

Part of Thailand reform should be that no major projects move forward until they reform the bidding, regulation, and deal process to eliminate opportunities for corruption. The Thai Mr. 20%s.

[soalbundy]

One would hope that the team to build and maintain this high maintenance project will have higher intelligence , than the previous and the present caretaker government Administrations.

Yes, let 's hope so. Perhaps Thailand should import technicians, companies, businessmen, etc...from abroad like it's importing English teachers.

I' m not joking and I don't mean to offend Thais, but reality is reality, Thailand has clearly ways to go to become an efficient and developed country.

There is nothing bad to import experience ,competence besides technology where the country still lacks them.

That's already happening or do you really think that the Thai Auto industry,electronic industry and the chemical industry are the result of Thai high tech?

[englishoak]

HSR is a passenger service. It will not carry freight as that would require an upgrading of the track to bear the extra loads, and because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

I would suggest HSR track upgrading is exactly what will happen, Thailand has 0 so not a problem if installed from the outset. http://www.worldfinance.com/infrastructure-investment/project-management/high-speed-rail-the-future-of-freight

If you have any link to such a proposal, I would be happy to see it. Except for a couple of idiots proposing stops for fruit and vegetables, there has been NO suggestion of a HSR freight service because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

If course there isnt, i didnt say there was just that HSR is the future of freight, I couldnt care less if it goes ahead or not here just that at some point its likely to regardless. China has plans and vision for the future and China will find a way to supply thats cheaper for her, if not through here probably into Myanmar maybe even linking up other countries. Thailand can either be a part of it or miss out, up to her, it bothers me not one bit either way.

[Ricardo]

"...saying that the route had been divided into two parts: Bangkok - Phitsanulok and Phitsanulok-Chiang Mai..."

Meaning of course that the hi-speed line will only run from Bangkok to Phitsanulok at first and then they will run out of money or get bogged down fighting corruption charges. I believe that the Bangkok - Nong Khai line will also only run to Khorat. Obviously no hope of any line South of Hua Hin while PT is in charge and Southerners don't vote for them.

I believe the original plan called for three sections Bangkok to Chiang Mai. The Government was to build the first section and private interest the other two. I can just see a line of private investors to build the rest of it. NOT.

There was nothing concrete about it but they did have some plans as France said they would not be interested in doing it for the price Thailand was willing to pay. I believe China and Japan were the only one's interested in doing the job but ball park figures or maybe bar talk figures had Japan about twice as high as China.

The original one proposed from Singapore to Peaking was talking about double tracking and moving it away from cities and using bridges over roadways.

I wonder who they were surveying for the one to Chiang Mai. My bet says no one in Yala but the residents of Yala could let their great grandchildren pay for it. 52 years to pay it off. Some one did the math on it and said if they would just bank the first 12 years of interest they would have enough money and not have to borrow any money.

China had a proposal to go all the way through Thailand but miss Chiang Mai. They figured it was out of the question but it would be feasible to build a spur line to Chiang Rai.

IIRC the original Chinese proposal/MOU was for a heavy-freight line, necessarily via Thailand, to speed their exports to port at Singapore and perhaps drop some off in Bangkok, which wouldn't be very good for local manufacturers.

Then the Thai politicians, spotting the idea's potential for vote-winning or brown-envelopes, changed that to a hi-speed passenger line, essentially duplicating the existing decayed network, no domestic heavy-freight as that would upset the truckers & road-construction/maintenance cash-flows.

Then some bright spark thought of financing it over 50-years, so that the costs wouldn't become apparent, until long after they'd left office.

The privately-funded more-difficult/expensive Uttaradit-Chiang Mai section would be left undone, unless some crazed private-sector benefactor could be found to complete it, potential for future rake-offs & thus trashing the politicians' talk of it being a Bangkok-Chiang Mai line, but hey ... nobody's really listening or thinking anyway ... so what the heck ?

Three years onwards, and nothing much has actually been achieved, except that they know what will be in the on-board lunch-boxes !

And one can guess what would be in the land-side lunch-boxes, too. Loads-a-Money ! Yay for Infrastructure !

[dighambara]

To Chiang Mai...???

Why..?? For the weather..??

Hua Hin is a major tourist center, Nong Khai is a major Import-Export port, Rayong is near(?) a deep water port (Sattaheep)...

OH, I forgot T.I.T. where such decisions are made to favor the wealthy, who own land in Chiang Mai, Rayong and Hua Hin and not made to favor business; Nong Khai, Aranyapratet, Narathiwat.

[JRSoul]

HSR is a passenger service. It will not carry freight as that would require an upgrading of the track to bear the extra loads, and because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

I would suggest HSR track upgrading is exactly what will happen, Thailand has 0 so not a problem if installed from the outset. http://www.worldfinance.com/infrastructure-investment/project-management/high-speed-rail-the-future-of-freight

If you have any link to such a proposal, I would be happy to see it. Except for a couple of idiots proposing stops for fruit and vegetables, there has been NO suggestion of a HSR freight service because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

If course there isnt, i didnt say there was just that HSR is the future of freight, I couldnt care less if it goes ahead or not here just that at some point its likely to regardless. China has plans and vision for the future and China will find a way to supply thats cheaper for her, if not through here probably into Myanmar maybe even linking up other countries. Thailand can either be a part of it or miss out, up to her, it bothers me not one bit either way.

"Its about trade and logistics more than passengers" From your deleted post.

[Lakegeneve]

"...saying that the route had been divided into two parts: Bangkok - Phitsanulok and Phitsanulok-Chiang Mai..."

Meaning of course that the hi-speed line will only run from Bangkok to Phitsanulok at first and then they will run out of money or get bogged down fighting corruption charges. I believe that the Bangkok - Nong Khai line will also only run to Khorat. Obviously no hope of any line South of Hua Hin while PT is in charge and Southerners don't vote for them.

I believe the original plan called for three sections Bangkok to Chiang Mai. The Government was to build the first section and private interest the other two. I can just see a line of private investors to build the rest of it. NOT.

There was nothing concrete about it but they did have some plans as France said they would not be interested in doing it for the price Thailand was willing to pay. I believe China and Japan were the only one's interested in doing the job but ball park figures or maybe bar talk figures had Japan about twice as high as China.

The original one proposed from Singapore to Peaking was talking about double tracking and moving it away from cities and using bridges over roadways.

I wonder who they were surveying for the one to Chiang Mai. My bet says no one in Yala but the residents of Yala could let their great grandchildren pay for it. 52 years to pay it off. Some one did the math on it and said if they would just bank the first 12 years of interest they would have enough money and not have to borrow any money.

China had a proposal to go all the way through Thailand but miss Chiang Mai. They figured it was out of the question but it would be feasible to build a spur line to Chiang Rai.

Every single thing that you have written here is incorrect. You patently have no idea what you are talking about. Much of it is just incomprehensible speculation and a miss mass of different info.

China never proposed a corridor anywhere near Chiang Mai. Nong Khai to BKK is the corridor, which is why the Chinese are arm twisting the Laos govt to build a US$7 billion HSR through Laos from Yunnan (Boten) to Vietiane. The loine would be 417 km long with 154 bridges and 74 tunnels, a huge engineering task which the chinese would undertake thus leaving Laos in debt to them.

All the rest about the French, Japanese (surprised you didn't mention ze Germans) is just way off reality. Use google and do some research, plenty of info even here on TV.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Lakegeneve

[Lakegeneve]

HSR is a passenger service. It will not carry freight as that would require an upgrading of the track to bear the extra loads, and because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

I would suggest HSR track upgrading is exactly what will happen, Thailand has 0 so not a problem if installed from the outset. http://www.worldfinance.com/infrastructure-investment/project-management/high-speed-rail-the-future-of-freight

If you have any link to such a proposal, I would be happy to see it. Except for a couple of idiots proposing stops for fruit and vegetables, there has been NO suggestion of a HSR freight service because there is simply no demand for such an expensive service.

If course there isnt, i didnt say there was just that HSR is the future of freight, I couldnt care less if it goes ahead or not here just that at some point its likely to regardless. China has plans and vision for the future and China will find a way to supply thats cheaper for her, if not through here probably into Myanmar maybe even linking up other countries. Thailand can either be a part of it or miss out, up to her, it bothers me not one bit either way.

A couple of things to add to this discussion.

The existing single track narrow gauge network is being doubled tracked and upgraded mainly with a view to freight. I previously posted info on that program in this thread (post #27) - check the map, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/626141-thai-railways-set-eyes-on-dual-track-system/page-2

This is part of a long term program which started some 10 yrs ago but which was massively funded by the previous Democrat govt to speed up implementation - the PT govt continued the program but rolled it into its 2.2 trillion baht funding package.

The SRT was under funded for 5 decades and the railways allowed to deteriorate with no substantial upgrades of the network - imagine if a highway had not been upgraded and expanded for 4-5 decades! The 4000km network is in a poor state hence the high number of derailments and low ave speeds, 50-60km range.

Once the whole network is upgraded and expanded (a few new lines, Chirang Rai, Mukhdahan & short cut from Eastern seaboard to Korat) ave running speeds with be more in the 120-140km/h range. Suitable for freight. Part of the upgrade involves removing all of the nearly 600 unofficial crossings that mainly locals use and which result in some 50 deaths a year. A report from March 2013 stated "Over the past six years, 887 accidents have been reported at railway crossings, with 979 people injured and 297 killed."

Eventually the plan is to electrify the whole network and long tern convert to standard gauge though the latter is doubtful given the upgrade will not be completed until the end of 2020s.

HSR lines will be completely new lines separate from the rest of the network.

[Lakegeneve]

To add.

1) The Rayong HSR line was first proposed in 1996 by OTP!!! These are not new plans.

2) Speed: Someone mentioned 350km/h speeds. Think more 220-250 km/h running speeds for these HSR lines.

3) Yes there will be corruption no matter who is in power nor who builds these lines. That is stating the obvious.... a bit like saying that it will be hot during Songkhran.

It is obviously a matter of the extent of the corruption. Nothing gets built in Thailand without that element, not a park seat nor a road sign. Major projects mean major lining of decision makers pockets. Someone mentioned the infamous and blatant example of the new airport......should it have not been built given the reality of how things work in Thailand? Less would be better but how possible that is depends on the political landscape.

4) Fares: The base rate being used by the MOT & OTP for ticket cost estimations for the proposed HSR lines is 2 baht per km for standard class. Higher for 1st class at 3 baht per km.

5) Eastern HSR: If we use the example of the Rayong line (the previous govts priority and all designed) which everyone agrees is the line which will generate the most revenue given the mix of tourism, industry and local pop on the eastern seaboard. The number of people traveling just between BKK & chonburi each day is huge. The pax potential is high given the time savings. Consider if people wishing to go to Pattaya for the weekend will spend around 300 baht one way to get there in under 1hr from central BKK (in 2018 prices). Roughly twice the price for half the time...

The proposed 221km Eastern HSR line would have the following 6 stations;

Makkasan CAT, Lat Krabang (interchange with ARL), Chachoengsao, Chonburi, Pattaya, Rayong.

It will use the existing 28km airport line (ARL) which is currently designed for 160 km/h operation. Though the HSR line will be designed for 250-300km/h max. Detailed designed is currently due to be completed by Sept 2014. The previous construction timetable was to start at the start of 2015 (said to take 3 years but realistically make that 4) but who knows now.

6) NE & N: The PT priority was to start a 85km section from the new Bang Sue Intercity Terminal (under construction) north to near Ayutthaya late last year. Obviously, that time frame was unlikely and it didn't happen given the amnesty bill debacle and lapsing of the contentious funding bill (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/704097-bt2-tn-loan-bill-chided-in-court/) after the govt dissolution.

7) South: Still some work to be done on the final preferred route of the 209 km BKK to HH line, especially in relation to station locations. The economics of this line are the least favourable compared to the other three according to OTP.

This section would form the basis of the BKK to Korat and BKK to P'lok first phases of the NE & N HSR lines, to be completed by 2019. (The route north of P'lok is still being finalised with 3 options - in fact there are public hearings this week. Korat to Nong Khai is done)

8) Whatever govt is next in power, it will continue the process of getting closer to a tender for the first stage of one line to be built. The process will be more messy than it needs to be, it will be delayed but there is bipartisan support for these lines. The political issue is not HSR or not. It is which line is best for our political priority - which can we gain maximum financial and electoral benefit from. Nothing new there. Every politician wants to promise HSR line to their constituents first but of course that is not possible.

A little more I wrote last year in another related thread;

HSR

I few things to note. These HSR lines will be expensive, no doubt. However, factor in all the economic benefits when you cost health costs from vehicle pollution and stress, provincial economic stimulus, environmental pollution costs, reduced vehicle accidents, workforce efficiency and flow on effects; the benefits are overwhelming. All of these elements can be costed and should be factored in. Everyone is happy to spend US$5 billion on a new motorway - such as the proposed BKK to Korat one - without much discussion of the consequences but build a HSR line and suddenly it is untenable for some. We can't keep building new roads and highways forever only adding to more congestion, that model doesn't work.

The HSR plans ARE NOT NEW. They have been around since the mid 90s proposed by civil servants in MOT. Successive govts have flirted with the idea but done very little while still allowing the SRT to be underfunded. More recently the Chinese have been looking to expand their trade routes through the west of China. The Dems when they were in power dusted off the previous plans and committed to building a HSR network, Had they won the 2011, the Rayong HSR line would already have commenced construction. PT have adjusted the plans to suit their own political needs.

There WILL BE CORRUPTION. We know how it works here, unfortunately it is not going to change in the near future. Build a footpath and there is corruption. Any large public project has multiple flow on effects for lining peoples pockets. Is the current funding model sustainable? Time will tell. No doubt it is designed to benefit those in power and their corrupt friends. One only has to see the amount being lost on the rice scheme - already reportedly US$6 billion which may grow to $10 billion this year! Which ever party is in power has their snouts in the trough, some just have bigger snouts!

"As for HST. All 4 lines are to start this year."

I can't agree with this. If even the one planned tender for the initial part of the HSR network (85kms) is out by the end of the year as stated, that will be an achievement! If works starts on the initial phases of even 2 lines by 2014 the govt will be doing very well. Generally, timelines and deadlines are very fluid as we have all seen, Treat timelines with much skepticism and only bother with each step of the process, ie. tender period, contract signed, work starts etc...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/629544-thai-govts-train-project-will-only-benefit-the-rich/page-6

[englishoak]

Excellent info and detail Lakegeneve. Thank you

[northernjohn]

line o Chiang ai. t

It has to happen at some point what century do you think this is ? Its about trade and logistics more than passengers and China are very interested in shaving off a few thousand miles by sea or an hr or two by air.

You can bet Myanmar will be opening up hugely in the next couple of decades and there its a blank canvass. Look past the obvious and cynical issues and realise Thailand has no comprehensive rail service and its way outdated, be a good option to forget about a sub standard out of date diesel system and connect a few high speed quality routes instead.

It'll come and it'll be safe its like an airline, when you start getting into high speed rail the standards have to go right up, no one ever accuses Thai airlines of being deathtraps safety on HSR wouldnt be an issue.

The funding of course would be a concern but the gossip about it being a scam on such a scale are just another market story. Besides we are about to have major reforms here and when the shins leave politics there wont be massive corruption anymore remember ?

It would be nice and modern and itll take a decade or more to install, stop being dinosaurs and look to the future like China etc are doing, i heard all the same crap about the BTS and the MRT ... try imagining BKK without them now

Well I have to agree with you it will come. But why put it in now when it will be 30 years before the need for it is there. Yes there are some lines that could go in now and pay for them selves. Then there are others that will never pay for themselves. I am all for them if the need is there in the next five years. But Bangkok Chiang Mai is not in need of them.

Just out of curiosity if they did put one in I wonder how much cheaper it would be for a passenger than one of the cut rate air lines.

The talk about it being a scam is based in fact. Witness the line to Chiang Mai. Where is the justification in that? If it is justified why not just make a plan to do it. Start at each end and work to a meeting post. Also if it wasn't a scam how much do you think would go into the projects and how much into pockets? It is just a scam like the rice price was. looking to get votes and damn the results of the ill thought out promises.

I would like to know what ever happened to the plan China proposed that would run from Singapore to China. It would have covered some of the needed routes. Also China would have paid for part of it. I know it did not include a spur to Chiang Mai but it did make allowances for one to Chiang Rai. some thing to do with impractical terrain for the Chiang Mai spur.

[MikeOboe57]

Now that they milked out the rice scam the shinamafia comes up with the next megascam. It must be mouthwatering to them thinking of how much they can steal with this plan. And this time there will not be one group that will be hit (the farmers) but all taxpayers.

Enjoy the ride.

Never like your hero Suthep has stolen to sutherner farmers during many years and never how the many military governments have stolen in more than 30 years of the new airport project ,without putting a single stone (billions of baht gone) , while Thaksin made it in just 5 years.

Without him, Thailand would still rely on the old Don Meuang

And with him as well.

[Lakegeneve]

To add.

1) The Rayong HSR line was first proposed in 1996 by OTP!!! These are not new plans.

2) Speed: Someone mentioned 350km/h speeds. Think more 220-250 km/h running speeds for these HSR lines.

3) Yes there will be corruption no matter who is in power nor who builds these lines. That is stating the obvious.... a bit like saying that it will be hot during Songkhran.

It is obviously a matter of the extent of the corruption. Nothing gets built in Thailand without that element, not a park seat nor a road sign. Major projects mean major lining of decision makers pockets. Someone mentioned the infamous and blatant example of the new airport......should it have not been built given the reality of how things work in Thailand? Less would be better but how possible that is depends on the political landscape.

4) Fares: The base rate being used by the MOT & OTP for ticket cost estimations for the proposed HSR lines is 2 baht per km for standard class. Higher for 1st class at 3 baht per km.

5) Eastern HSR: If we use the example of the Rayong line (the previous govts priority and all designed) which everyone agrees is the line which will generate the most revenue given the mix of tourism, industry and local pop on the eastern seaboard. The number of people traveling just between BKK & chonburi each day is huge. The pax potential is high given the time savings. Consider if people wishing to go to Pattaya for the weekend will spend around 300 baht one way to get there in under 1hr from central BKK (in 2018 prices). Roughly twice the price for half the time...

The proposed 221km Eastern HSR line would have the following 6 stations;

Makkasan CAT, Lat Krabang (interchange with ARL), Chachoengsao, Chonburi, Pattaya, Rayong.

It will use the existing 28km airport line (ARL) which is currently designed for 160 km/h operation. Though the HSR line will be designed for 250-300km/h max. Detailed designed is currently due to be completed by Sept 2014. The previous construction timetable was to start at the start of 2015 (said to take 3 years but realistically make that 4) but who knows now.

"Detailed designed is currently due to be completed by Sept 2014."

Rayong HSR line update on the detailed design process

A little update on the detailed design front. Given that we subsequently had the coup and a change in govt policy regarding HSR (essentially for the next govt) this line is not a priority project as it previously was. However, the detailed design is still being undertaken. From what I understand it will be completed by the end of the year (which probably means early next year).

Travel times (mins) and Distances (km) between each station

As the line will use the ARL it will be limited to 160km/h in BKK and then a max of 250 km/h beyong the airport. A spur line for direct services to the airport will also be built

A few station renders (not final designs):

Chachoengsao station (to be built 1km north of the existing station)

Chobburi station (same location)

Pattaya station (same location)