my trip to Wat Dhammakaya

[beautifulthailand99]

The Buddhist (some say cult) order of Dhammakaya has it's roots right back to 1959 and before when it was founded by a meditation master Phra Dhammachayo and since then has grown rapidly some would say meteorically after his death under the discipleship of his leading nun Kuhn Yay Acariya (Chandra Khonnokyoong) who established the temple at its current site. Since setting up its temple at the site north of Bangkok in 1970 it has grown from 80 acres to well over a thousand acres and regularly holds assemblies of more than half a million people.

I had visited the place ten years ago and was staggered at the scale and almost insane vision of the place and so was determined to visit again and see what had occurred in those 10 years.

Suffice to say it is now beyond crazy and the huge inhuman scale of the buildings is gob smacking , redolent of something that the Nazis or the North Koreans would build and one has to ask a BIG WHY ? Is this a perversion of Buddhism with its emphasis on huge buildings and mass gatherings as a show of spiritual power ? The main UFO pagoda is surrounded by a 3.2km of two storey huge concrete buildings that took 10 years to build that will remain unpainted and there is in the middle of one side a huge hydraulic bridge so that it can open up to receive huge ornamental carriages and barges where necessary. They have also just started putting up pillars that eventually will support the roof making it the largest structure ever assembled on earth. The pagoda is made up of 300,000 identical Buddha statues in the familiar Dhammakaya Buddha alien type shape - and the interior is now sealed and filled with over 700,000 Buddha statues.

I checked in at the tour centre and joined a Burmese tour group which was led by a Burmese guide and we went on an electric cart around the site he also inquired as to who I was and was I a journalist going to write about them (for the previous hour and a half I had been walking around unchaperoned filming many of the buildings). The tour guide when asked if there were any nuns replied no but there are 1200 monks on site in condo like buildings and some of them work in a huge Buddha statue factory on the site which has created over 1 million Buddha statues to date which comprises the exterior and interior of the main pagoda. There is also a volunteer village , a hospital and a school for child monks and a monk eating hall with the familiar huge UFO dome that houses all 1200 monks in one sitting. The concept is that whilst their are branch offices of Dhammakaya around Thailand and the world these are relatively simple operations and the funds are channeled into the main temple which publicizes itself as a temple for the world and has been built to last a thousand years. Adherents are encouraged to visit the main temple as often as possible and wera only white - the most important day of the year is Māgha Puja which was on 14th February and they expected over half a million supporters to attend.

That said all the people I met at the temple were friendly and welcoming and there was no hustling for any money. I was stopped a couple of times once by a girl in white and secondly by a monk who both spoke excellent English and inquired if I wanted any help. I also came across a semi-crumbling 3 story shopping mall of which only the ground floor was occupied by Dhammakaya businesses such as votive shops, a massage shop and several food shops. The massage shop which I visited had their 24 hour DMC channel on quietly for the whole time. Also at the edge of the compound was a housing estate with houses for sale called 'Meditation City' .

The adherents I spoke to seem to think that Thai Buddhism had lost it way and was innately corrupt and that many temples and monks tolerated lax behavior by the laity if they made merit and donated without thinking about the life changes that should be made. There are no faint hearts in Dhammakaya - once you join it is a 24/7 thing and it would appear you leave your old life behind once you jump in.

Without doubt I would posit that many of its adherents clean up their lives and live disciplined and resourceful existence with meditation at its heart. As you walk around Bangkok you can spot a Dhammakaya business easily as they have the image of the Dhammmakaya founder Phra Dhammachayo prominently displayed. These businesses it must be said often appear clean, well organized and thriving compared to their neighbors.

I would urge anyone who is remotely interested in this of thing or just wants to see a gob smacking example of 'Amazing Thailand' to go and and have a look. You can get a 12 baht green bus outside Rangsit Future Park which takes about 20 minutes and stops just outside the temple. Oh and just for the record I won't be joining them - too much like a cult and too intrusive into my life ! If you wanted to posit what sort of temple and cult aliens from another world would create then to my mind Wat Dhammakaya would tick many of the boxes !

Playlist of the videos I took on my trip

Wat Dhammakaya Tour You Tube Playlist

Previous discussions on TVF

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/219742-wat-phra-dhammakaya/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/354829-dhammakaya-traditional-buddhism-or-commodification/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_Phra_Dhammakaya

http://youtu.be/UQzhhB1feBo

Edited February 16, 2014 by beautifulthailand99

[GrahamR]

Ladies and gents

I went to one of their temples once. My greeting was a request for a donation. The Dharma books were for sale. The monks seemed more like businessmen, You could pay for a consultation with one.

Not Buddhism as I know it.

Graham

[beautifulthailand99]

Definately more like businessmen - I remember reading somewhere that Thaksin was a fellow traveller. That said theer was no request for money on the day I went - just a slightly sinister (maybe I'm just paranoid) feeling that I was being watched or followed. The donation centre is a four sided large booth in the main meditation centre surrounded by a host of ATM's . My feeling is the money goes to fund this insane vision and set of buildings rather than enriching corrupt individuals - just my hunch rather than any evidence.

I went expecting to hate them and find them despicable but if anything left just with my curiosity sated and a wonderment at how humans chhose to conduct their affairs and how bloated the human vision can become.

the main gate is a fortified steel structure that is on rails and would make a formidable defence if rolled into place. You get a sense they are already quite a power in Thailand and their reach and influence can only grow from here in. Nothing seems to be stopping their considerable growth both nationally and globally at the moment. I bet they would just love to get stuck into China if that was possible in the future.

Edited February 17, 2014 by beautifulthailand99

[beautifulthailand99]

BEYOND INSANE ! Wish though I had gone on the 14th February to see it though.

Edited February 19, 2014 by beautifulthailand99

[sabaijai]

Thanks for the report

[Fookhaht]

Fascinating place, fascinating report, and I will be taking up your suggestion to see this amazing place.

[beautifulthailand99]

Fascinating place, fascinating report, and I will be taking up your suggestion to see this amazing place.

Glad to hear it but just keep your wits about you and dont part with any money - think AMWAY and stay well away from getting involved - let us all know how you got on.

[rgs2001uk]

Fascinating place, fascinating report, and I will be taking up your suggestion to see this amazing place.

Glad to hear it but just keep your wits about you and dont part with any money - think AMWAY and stay well away from getting involved - let us all know how you got on.

My wife and I have been told by many Thais, keep well away, avoid this places at all costs (no pun intended).

Have also been told, the poor need not bother applying.

[RandomSand]

Fascinating place, fascinating report, and I will be taking up your suggestion to see this amazing place.

Glad to hear it but just keep your wits about you and dont part with any money - think AMWAY and stay well away from getting involved - let us all know how you got on.

This movement might turn out to be a vehicle which becomes very important in the future. Other vehicles such as Asoke, at this time, are too small and controversial. However; Dhammakaya really could, in time, float the boat.

Regardless of the financial aspect; I think the Dhammakaya movement is valid spiritually and it's self evident that Thai people get benefit from it.

[Fookhaht]

Fascinating place, fascinating report, and I will be taking up your suggestion to see this amazing place.

Glad to hear it but just keep your wits about you and dont part with any money - think AMWAY and stay well away from getting involved - let us all know how you got on.

This movement might turn out to be a vehicle which becomes very important in the future. Other vehicles such as Asoke, at this time, are too small and controversial. However; Dhammakaya really could, in time, float the boat.

Regardless of the financial aspect; I think the Dhammakaya movement is valid spiritually and it's self evident that Thai people get benefit from it.

. Could you explain your use of the word "vehicle?"

[RandomSand]

Fascinating place, fascinating report, and I will be taking up your suggestion to see this amazing place.

Glad to hear it but just keep your wits about you and dont part with any money - think AMWAY and stay well away from getting involved - let us all know how you got on.

This movement might turn out to be a vehicle which becomes very important in the future. Other vehicles such as Asoke, at this time, are too small and controversial. However; Dhammakaya really could, in time, float the boat.

Regardless of the financial aspect; I think the Dhammakaya movement is valid spiritually and it's self evident that Thai people get benefit from it.

. Could you explain your use of the word "vehicle?"

Hmmm, I used the word vehicle differently when referring to Dhammakaya vs Asoke.

You know; It's better if I rephrase it all like this...

This movement might turn out to be a vehicle which becomes very important in the future direction of Thailand's religious foundation. Other movements such as Asoke, at this time, are too small and controversial to become vehicles that could hold a whole nation together. However; Dhammakaya really could, in time, float the boat.

Regardless of the financial aspect; I think the Dhammakaya movement is valid spiritually and it's self evident that Thai people get benefit from it.

Of course; Whilst Theravāda Buddhism is the current "de facto" religion in Thailand, If Dhammakaya became the "de facto" religion then there would have been a change and Dhammakaya would have to be called the vehicle.

Now; If you want to identify the driver of this vehicle then you're asking a very profound question about the nature of a nation's Dharma.

Edited February 21, 2014 by RandomSand

[beautifulthailand99]

Fascinating place, fascinating report, and I will be taking up your suggestion to see this amazing place.

Glad to hear it but just keep your wits about you and dont part with any money - think AMWAY and stay well away from getting involved - let us all know how you got on.

My wife and I have been told by many Thais, keep well away, avoid this places at all costs (no pun intended).

Have also been told, the poor need not bother applying.

You're right my wife and family refused to go with me and dropped me off inside the temple compound - that said they were staggered at the immensity of the structures inside. As to the followers they appear disciplined, meditative,well presented and the businesses which display Dhammakaya symbols look prosperous,well maintained and popular with customers. I have no doubt that folk who follow this path either already are or develop further these attributes which contribute to greater success in life. It is some sort of Buddhist inspired almost American evangelist type of think rich and grow prosperous.

I have less problem with them than I do with a host of temples that are brimful with amulet sellers,lottery tickets, clairvoyants and monks exhibiting less than appropriate behaviour as befits their position. Adherents once they are 'in' are expected to and no doubt willingly choose to make life changing behavioural choices and show great affinity with their temple and movement.

As to whether this is Buddhist or not I'll leave that judgement to better informed people than me but I have no doubt if the Buddha was to return he would be aghast at many of the perverse ways that are associated with his name (though being beyond such attachments that is my spin being projected ineptly onto his thoughts).

There is a power vaccuum opening up in Thailand as we see the sunset of a dynasty and I have no doubt that there are many highly placed Dhammakaya followers over a huge range of powerful positions that they will be a force to be reckoned with in this country in the years to come.

[GrahamR]

You're right my wife and family refused to go with me and dropped me off inside the temple compound - that said they were staggered at the immensity of the structures inside. As to the followers they appear disciplined, meditative,well presented and the businesses which display Dhammakaya symbols look prosperous,well maintained and popular with customers. I have no doubt that folk who follow this path either already are or develop further these attributes which contribute to greater success in life. It is some sort of Buddhist inspired almost American evangelist type of think rich and grow prosperous.

I have less problem with them than I do with a host of temples that are brimful with amulet sellers,lottery tickets, clairvoyants and monks exhibiting less than appropriate behaviour as befits their position. Adherents once they are 'in' are expected to and no doubt willingly choose to make life changing behavioural choices and show great affinity with their temple and movement.

As to whether this is Buddhist or not I'll leave that judgement to better informed people than me but I have no doubt if the Buddha was to return he would be aghast at many of the perverse ways that are associated with his name (though being beyond such attachments that is my spin being projected ineptly onto his thoughts).

There is a power vaccuum opening up in Thailand as we see the sunset of a dynasty and I have no doubt that there are many highly placed Dhammakaya followers over a huge range of powerful positions that they will be a force to be reckoned with in this country in the years to come.

Hi

I think the comparison to Christian Evangelicals is particularly valid.

Having watched their TV channel, I found there was a lot of emphasis on heaven and hell, becoming an angel (if you pay enough) etc. It seemed to have the same carrot and stick aspect of Christian sects and Islamic fundamentalist groups which I reject for the same reason. I don't like the threats. Do what you're told or burn in hell. No thanks, good bye to that.

Graham

[HeavyDrinker]

I went there once and got followed around by some weirdo Englishman who wanted me to make a donation but not take any photos or ask any questions to anyone nor even speak to anyone....

When I found the wife, and expressed my desire to get out of this odd place, he tried leading me away from her until I told him she was my missus and if he didn't "jog on" I'd be forced to introduce his chin to Mr knuckle....

[beautifulthailand99]

I went there once and got followed around by some weirdo Englishman who wanted me to make a donation but not take any photos or ask any questions to anyone nor even speak to anyone....

When I found the wife, and expressed my desire to get out of this odd place, he tried leading me away from her until I told him she was my missus and if he didn't "jog on" I'd be forced to introduce his chin to Mr knuckle....

Seems like I got away with murder then - the two intercepts one from a girl in white and the second from a monk who came on the back of a motorbike and stopped me and suggested I went to the visitor centre (and then turned around and went back from whence he came) all seemed a little contrived and as I said as if they were watching me on the CCTV which they probably were. The comments from the tour guide was I a journalist or a writer suggests a certain level of unhealthy paranoia from outside unwarranted attention. This really is a 21st century equivalent of the pyramids though a lot less attractive and built on donations rather than slave labour.

[HeavyDrinker]

BT, We went just as the doodah was hitting the fan a few years ago.

I'd always wanted to go so we finally had an excuse but I think they'd had their fill of 'curious' people (especially foreigners) by then. It is an awe inspiring building however. For that reason alone I'd recommend a look to anyone if you can get past the religious stuff and the 'cult' claims.

It takes a lot to make my cynical old jaw drop but this place left me speechless in it's magnificence.

[beautifulthailand99]

The comparison with American Evangelists is most apt and they as a body now have significant influence in US politics and it goes further than that as the Mormons who are at least as barking as Dhammakaya can have a good stab at getting the US presidency with Mitt Romney. Mormons like their 'Buddhist conterparts' Dhammakaya exhibit moral and disciplined behaviours. Along with power comes influence and they seem to be pressing all the right buttons internationally - this video is from 5 years ago but shows they are making the right sort of connections and getting their message across to the right audience.

Here's their video for their new HQ on site

And here's where it is at the moment.

New recruits are analysed for their skill sets and encouraged to join the relevant part of the organisation - and monks can be architects,builders, marketing personnel or whatever they excel at best. My hunch it is the English Pra Nicholas that is part of the warped genius keeping this show on the road.

And here's finally an example from 2008 of their outreach to global opinion formers to get their message across.

http://youtu.be/zzNL7ogLKOo

[hookedondhamma]

One of the monks I lived with used to be in the Dhammakaya sect. Wouldn't say why he switched to the dhammayut order but I have a feeling the Dhammakaya was a bit too demanding for him.

Their Pali language primer is excellent, and always flys off the shelves as soon as it hits the bookstore across from thammasat uni.

I think they center around education, money, and the elite.

[lungmi]

Ask a" monk" of this money making sect.

Sabbe Dhamma annatatit.--- wright or wrong?

If he cannot answer, look for the garbage.

If the answer is NO, you know where the garbage stay.

Edited March 2, 2014 by lungmi

[fabianfred]

The school my 13 year old son attends has a program run by some teachers each summer holiday. They take students to the annual Novice monk ordination camp program run by a branch of Dhammakaya in Chiangmai behind the MaeJo uni. The kids stay for a couple of weeks and live in tents. Everything is well organised and they allow them one set of clothes so that they wash them each day. Last Saturday I went to attend my son's ordination. He volunteered, was not pressured by his teacher, and about 25 went from his school, some of them kids of the teachers and some were returning a second year.

They get good moral training. I have long suspected the emphasis on merit making above all by the organisation.

During the day and on leaflets they were broadcasting about how donating robes to monks or novices would ensure rebirth in heaven realms for 64 or 32 aeons...

This is not the teaching of the Buddhas..they do not encourage people to get to the heavens but to escape rebirth...

I got the impression that they have a 'cult of the monk' attitude. Certainly monks who practice the vinaya are to be respected and held in high esteem, but they seem to imply that only they can reach Nibbana, and all the rest must aim for male rebirth and thence monkhood.

My teacher Supawan Green is a Thai lady, mother, housewife and Arahant (or at least Anagami.. IMHO) who would not agree with their implications.

Still...if my boy comes home a bit more respectful and helpful about the home it will be good....

[katana]

I went there once and got followed around by some weirdo Englishman who wanted me to make a donation but not take any photos or ask any questions to anyone nor even speak to anyone....

When I found the wife, and expressed my desire to get out of this odd place, he tried leading me away from her until I told him she was my missus and if he didn't "jog on" I'd be forced to introduce his chin to Mr knuckle....

Keyboard warrior

[jacky54]

I thought 1959 was the year the founder of this corrupt cult died? It is older than that and Richard Randall went to their original wat in Paknam in 1954 as the first western monk. His book life as a Siamese monk is a very good read. When the founder was alive it was very sincere, now it's just a money machine. it's meditation methods are virtually impossible.

[fabianfred]

The founder himself... Luang Por Sodt (Wat Pak Nam) changed over to Vipassana meditation before he died (almost certainly an Arahnt).

When asked my LP Jaran, his former student who was also studying Vipassana at Wat mahathat, if he would continue to practice Dhammakaya meditation or Vipassana ... he said 'If you have found the truth would you continue to practice the false way?'

He also knew that after his death his followers would destroy any evidence of his having practiced Vipassana in order to continue the teaching of Dhammakaya.

[sabaijai]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/DSI-to-summon-Dhammakaya-abbot-to-explain-donation-30254502.html

[kotsak]

The problem is that this guy has a huge number of followers, not to mention plenty of them are hi-so. I don't see this going anywhere besides getting a few headlines. Business as usual.

[jacky54]

No better than scientolodgy

[RichCor]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/DSI-to-summon-Dhammakaya-abbot-to-explain-donation-30254502.html

Déjà vu

Issues read similar to this 15 year old TIME article.

Trouble in Nirvana

By DAVID LIEBHOLD Monday, June 28, 1999

"Dhammachayo these days is Thailand's most controversial figure. In recent months he has been bombarded with accusations, ranging from embezzlement to deviation from the Buddha's teaching. Thai Buddhism's highest authority, the Supreme Patriarch, has said Dhammachayo, 55, should be expelled from the monkhood. And on June 11, the government filed criminal charges against him, accusing him of embezzlement, abusing his position as an abbot and making a false statement."

"In soft, quiet tones he speculates that the charges might be the result of a misunderstanding or government anxiety over the large number of people congregating at the temple. He says such security concerns are understandable, especially following the horrific experiences with doomsday cults like Japan's Aum Shinrikyo and America's Branch Davidians."

[sabaijai]

Two interesting news articles on the Dhammakaya movement appeared today.

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-story/asia-report/blogs/story/peek-thailands-controversial-temple-wat-dhammakaya-20150309

http://www.wsj.com/articles/thai-temples-gospel-of-wealth-draws-protests-1426048060?tesla=y

[beautifulthailand99]

It looks like the Junta is getting serious about taking on some Buddhist centres of power. Don't remember the Buddha extolling the virtues of arms and armies but maybe one of the more enlightened members can put me straight.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/4843

[VincentRJ]

It looks like the Junta is getting serious about taking on some Buddhist centres of power. Don't remember the Buddha extolling the virtues of arms and armies but maybe one of the more enlightened members can put me straight.

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/4843

There's a principle which has permeated, and continues to permeate, all cultures and societies and individuals, from time immemorial, and that's 'power'.

We all love power, in some form or other, whether it be political power, the power of money and wealth, the power of celebrity and status, or the power of a simple farm worker who succeeds in trapping a rabbit or a fox.

My concept of Buddhism, at a philosophical level, is that it's concerned with helping the individual to achieve power over himself (or herself), rather than power over others.

To dispel all suffering, discomfort, anxiety and unrealistic expectations within oneself, requires a subtle form of power over oneself, achieved through practices of meditation. That is the greatest satisfaction of all.