chiang mai Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 And how exactly are the Customs/Security services in your country supposed to know that you've not been a criminal whilst overseas, just because you're a citizen, get real! Right, so let's just treat the entire population as criminals instead. "If we get even one bad guy, it'll be worth it!" as you guys say. I tend to take a different view. If you were really being treated like a criminal, you'd be wearing handcuffs or be in jail, in reality you're just being treated with intense scrutiny and potential suspicion which is what that staff need to do in order to do their job effectively. Your problem (and that of many others) is that you think you have a right to come and go unhindered, unchallenged and unquestioned, just because you're entering your home country and that concept is no longer valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nautilus05 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Your problem (and that of many others) is that you think you have a right to come and go unhindered, unchallenged and unquestioned, just because you're entering your home country and that concept is no longer valid. Unless there's some type of evidence against me, exactly. We should go all out here then, because we're probably still letting a bad guy or two through. These criminals are pretty smart, so they'll upload their stuff to the cloud before going through a border. To combat this, we should pass a new law that allows for follow up inspections. Any time within 90 days of crossing the border, customs can show up at your house unannounced, and begin rummaging through your personal belongings without a warrant. Then we'd safe! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Your problem (and that of many others) is that you think you have a right to come and go unhindered, unchallenged and unquestioned, just because you're entering your home country and that concept is no longer valid. Unless there's some type of evidence against me, exactly. We should go all out here then, because we're probably still letting a bad guy or two through. These criminals are pretty smart, so they'll upload their stuff to the cloud before going through a border. To combat this, we should pass a new law that allows for follow up inspections. Any time within 90 days of crossing the border, customs can show up at your house unannounced, and begin rummaging through your personal belongings without a warrant. Then we'd safe! No, there's no wording that begins with "unless" in my argument, but nice try anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) One case is one too many. But here's a little tidbit: Between October 1, 2008 and June 2, 2010, over 6,500 people — nearly 3,000 of them U.S. citizens — were subjected to a search of their electronic devices as they crossed U.S. borders. (That's 1.67 years) Source: https://www.aclu.org/free-speech-technology-and-liberty/abidor-v-napolitano 66.7 million foreigners entered the USA in one year (2012) (That's 111 million foreigners in 1.67 years- They don't mention how many citizens enter, just foreigners) Source:http://travel.trade.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/Fast_Facts_2012.pdf So 3,500 of the 111,000,000 foreigners who entered were subject to such a search. That's 0.003%, or 1 in every 31,800. So if they took everyone in the Super Bowl Stadium they'd have to search about 3 people to get the same percentage. I still believe that 1 is too many. But from a practical standpoint, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. BTW, some good links on the ACLU website linked above. Edited February 17, 2014 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGImInPattaya Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 And how exactly are the Customs/Security services in your country supposed to know that you've not been a criminal whilst overseas, just because you're a citizen, get real! Right, so let's just treat the entire population as criminals instead. "If we get even one bad guy, it'll be worth it!" as you guys say. I tend to take a different view. If you were really being treated like a criminal, you'd be wearing handcuffs or be in jail, in reality you're just being treated with intense scrutiny and potential suspicion which is what that staff need to do in order to do their job effectively. Your problem (and that of many others) is that you think you have a right to come and go unhindered, unchallenged and unquestioned, just because you're entering your home country and that concept is no longer valid. No I don't think that's it. I think that many Americans are just surprised, and a little shocked, when they find out for the first time that they loose their rights protecting them from unlawful search and seizure just because they left the country and subsequently return. I know I was when I first heard about this years ago and did further investigation about it. Because we as Americans cherish the rights bestowed to us by our founders and defended in blood by countless of our fellow Americans over the centuries that to find out how easily they are lost simply because we engage in foreign travel, well it was a shock...at least to me. I don't even see the logic to it as I can just as easily download child pornography, have commercial sex with minors and take pictures of my acts, or purchase and transport illegal drugs inside the United States, and even travel across state borders within the country with these things in my possession, and I'm always protected by the 4th Amendment. Why is it that I, as an American citizen, loose these protections by crossing an international border? Has anyone actually read the on point cases and can tell the legal rationale used to justify this...because I can't think of one. Yes, search non-Americans if they wish as they are not covered by the protections of the Constitution until they are officially admitted into the country but leave Americans alone. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Leave Americans alone, goodness! Large numbers of Brits from various ethnic backgrounds appear to have gone to Syria to fight, many have now returned to the UK with much new knowledge of how to prepare bombs, kill and cause general mayhem - doubtless the situation in that "melting pot" of the USA is similar although the US has a substantially larger population hence the problem is magnified So what do you suggest, perhaps that all US citizens be left unchecked and everyone else subject to scrutiny, for goodness sake, get real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post atyclb Posted February 17, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2014 search "tsa parody" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesWideOpen Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Easy. If you do not want some federal employee rummaging through every photo your took on your Asian trip, just use the program TrueCrypt....It has two password levels, and is in essence uncrackable.... http://www.truecrypt.org/downloads If you are selected for enhanced screening and if it's a full electronics review as well, if such a encrypted file, folder, or container is found on any of your electronic devices and you refuse to decrypt it yourself or provide the password, you can be sure the device will be confiscated for further detailed forensic analysis. It may be months or never before you are allowed to retrieve the device. You can also be assured that your name will be entered into the CBP system and you will be chosen for enhances screening on any subsequent entries into the United States. However, the CBP cannot force you to reveal your password and there is no fine/penalty for failing to do so (other than getting on the list).This can be a real problem for business people who need to protect propriety business data when they travel or for ordinary travelers financial, banking, and tax date they may wish to protect. The best solution is to have a "clean" traveling with minimal or no protected data on it and so that if they demand to see the encrypted data, one can decide to reveal it or refuse and the data/device loss is minimal. You weren't paying attention: TrueCrypt has TWO password levels. You store the things you WANT people searching you to find at one level, and, after you let them pressure and threaten you, you "reluctantly surrender" that password. However, there's a second level of encryption in the file--which is completely invisible--which is only able to be opened with the second password, which you never give them. The file looks just like one encrypted file, it's just which password you enter that determines which level of the file will be opened. Of course, governments know about this by now (TrueCrypt is free and open source, and it's no secret that it has this hidden encryption level capability), and if they REALLY suspect you of something (that is, have other evidence to incriminate you beyond just your appearance), they'll confiscate your device no matter whether you give them a password or not. But they still won't be able to get into the second encryption level, if you have one. TrueCrypt is really, really good at what it does.[/qudumb] Yeah...these guys are dumb but not that dumb. Its pretty easy to see that the size of the decrypted data doesn't match the size of the folder/drive. Uhhh it actually does..... :-) The program is brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 One case is one too many. But here's a little tidbit: Between October 1, 2008 and June 2, 2010, over 6,500 people — nearly 3,000 of them U.S. citizens — were subjected to a search of their electronic devices as they crossed U.S. borders. (That's 1.67 years) Source: https://www.aclu.org/free-speech-technology-and-liberty/abidor-v-napolitano 66.7 million foreigners entered the USA in one year (2012) (That's 111 million foreigners in 1.67 years- They don't mention how many citizens enter, just foreigners) Source:http://travel.trade.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/Fast_Facts_2012.pdf So 3,500 of the 111,000,000 foreigners who entered were subject to such a search. That's 0.003%, or 1 in every 31,800. So if they took everyone in the Super Bowl Stadium they'd have to search about 3 people to get the same percentage. I still believe that 1 is too many. But from a practical standpoint, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. BTW, some good links on the ACLU website linked above. Court Rules No Suspicion Needed for Laptop Searches at Border From this ACLU article: An appeal is being considered. So ACLU will have 60 days from the 31DEC2013 decision date whether to appeal to the 2nd District Court of Appeals. https://www.aclu.org/national-security-technology-and-liberty/court-rules-no-suspicion-needed-laptop-searches-border Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiftyTwo Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I don't mind if anyone looks through my stuff. I do mind if they keep me waiting hours while they do it. Not against being searched by well-trained, efficient people. Am against being tugged around by trailer park trash and minimum wage workers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 They have drones flying over your head and private agencies have full authorization from white house and Cia to kill any USA citizen anywhere, anytime... You are nothing! Yes and the drones are coming to take you away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 One case is one too many. But here's a little tidbit: Between October 1, 2008 and June 2, 2010, over 6,500 people — nearly 3,000 of them U.S. citizens — were subjected to a search of their electronic devices as they crossed U.S. borders. (That's 1.67 years) Source: https://www.aclu.org/free-speech-technology-and-liberty/abidor-v-napolitano 66.7 million foreigners entered the USA in one year (2012) (That's 111 million foreigners in 1.67 years- They don't mention how many citizens enter, just foreigners) Source:http://travel.trade.gov/outreachpages/download_data_table/Fast_Facts_2012.pdf So 3,500 of the 111,000,000 foreigners who entered were subject to such a search. That's 0.003%, or 1 in every 31,800. So if they took everyone in the Super Bowl Stadium they'd have to search about 3 people to get the same percentage. I still believe that 1 is too many. But from a practical standpoint, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. BTW, some good links on the ACLU website linked above. Court Rules No Suspicion Needed for Laptop Searches at Border From this ACLU article: An appeal is being considered. So ACLU will have 60 days from the 31DEC2013 decision date whether to appeal to the 2nd District Court of Appeals. https://www.aclu.org/national-security-technology-and-liberty/court-rules-no-suspicion-needed-laptop-searches-border Holey moley. Somehow this thread has degenerated to the sharing of useful and timely information. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjunadawn Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 There is little happening in the US or the world that our framers did not envision. While practically the world is entirely different, the mechaniations of Man, government, and their relations have changed little. In an age where "no good crisis should go to waste" we must guard our precious liberties ever more closely. US jurisprudence is based on precedent, applies to the Executive Branch as well, and insofar as power is taken and not rebuked, power than forever changes or increases. The US, under the premise of one "war on ____." or another, has enlarged the US Monolith to such Stasi like proportions that Stalin or Mao would have blushed. When we tolerate encrochments, for one premise or another, we invite despotism. "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." [T.J. B.F.] US Government is a threat to individual liberties! At no time has any State existed with such power as to adversely affect the entire globe. What you folks see as inconvience in prusuit of bad guys, "how could they know you are not a criminal," are really stalking horses to tyranny. Already, numerous people in USA dont recognize the country. DHS daily prepares for civil unrest against it's own citizens, and the post today touches on a periphery observation of just entering US airpspace and soil. America reeks of Police State. The slow watering down of what American's will tolerate proves they will eat a sh_t sandwich if fed one bite at a time; now we have eaten so much the rest is being shoved down our throats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) How do you suggest they catch pedophiles without invading innocent peoples' privacy? I had my laptop searched 2 years back and there were a lot of questions asked about my arm around 2 5 year old hill tribe girls. I answered truthfully and never felt my privacy was violated as I had nothing to hide. It always seems to be guilty people that are first to question the legalities over wiretaps, searches and so on. Personally, I am not opposed to a search of electronic devices at borders, or even that a copy is made for later inspection. After all, this is the border, and border agents always had the authority to thoroughly search any person at their discretion. I don't dispute this. But I am opposed to: - confiscation of devices. people need their computers for work. If the border agents want a copy, they should do it quickly within an hour and give back the devices undamaged and with the original data within that hour. Fail that, the traveler should be given a voucher to buy a new device of equivalent capabilities. It's up to the government to equip border check points with appropriate equipment and staff to be able to perform such copies - forcing travelers to reveal passwords. when people are arrested, they have the right to remain silent, I think this right applies even more to people who weren't arrested !! - storage of data after a search revealed nothing illegal. if the border agents found nothing illegal, the data on the laptop is of no concern to anyone and should be deleted to preserve privacy. A signed guarantee on paper should be given to the traveller and any breach of this regulation should be punished with sacking and a couple of years of prison for any officials knowingly involved, especially if the data had some degree of confidentiality, such as data pertaining to the person's political activity, lawyer's data, financial data, business data, scientific data, etc. - inversion of burden of proof. if a search reveals intimate photos of persons that aren't clearly underage beyond any doubt, I think the traveller should be questioned and if no further proof is revealed, be put on a watchlist to be investigated by his local police and flagged for further inspections for future travels, instead of being arrested and deemed guilty until he can prove the age of the person on the pics/videos Edited February 17, 2014 by manarak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjunadawn Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 The post's local commentary on Port of Entry searching can be considered in isolation, but the fact is its part of a much broader policy that is slowly changing the US forever. The US is searching every single communication on earth, every server hub, underwater cable entry/exit point, crack-able sat link, and PC in every single country on earth. I would not doubt the US has attempted to hack into the Chinese Rover Rabbit, so not just on earth, in the solar system (just a guess on that one :-)). So, which is it? Is this an issue that is stirring so many hornets because it is simply a local provocation from a country that many of us call home, but not resident home? Or is this an issue because the festering tentacles of these policies intrusively reaches into every corner of the world? They are collecting on the congress of the USA! If that is not alarming nothing else should be. In essence, divided government has ended when the executive spies on the legislative. I am unsure of the answer to the question: How to Provide Security and Ensure Freedom- but what is developing in USA and across the globe as a consequence cannot engender liberty and security is dubious. As former military, I accept searches, etc. for security, but I draw the line at PC access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thailiketoo Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 (edited) The post's local commentary on Port of Entry searching can be considered in isolation, but the fact is its part of a much broader policy that is slowly changing the US forever. The US is searching every single communication on earth, every server hub, underwater cable entry/exit point, crack-able sat link, and PC in every single country on earth. I would not doubt the US has attempted to hack into the Chinese Rover Rabbit, so not just on earth, in the solar system (just a guess on that one :-)). So, which is it? Is this an issue that is stirring so many hornets because it is simply a local provocation from a country that many of us call home, but not resident home? Or is this an issue because the festering tentacles of these policies intrusively reaches into every corner of the world? They are collecting on the congress of the USA! If that is not alarming nothing else should be. In essence, divided government has ended when the executive spies on the legislative. I am unsure of the answer to the question: How to Provide Security and Ensure Freedom- but what is developing in USA and across the globe as a consequence cannot engender liberty and security is dubious. As former military, I accept searches, etc. for security, but I draw the line at PC access. "It was only a matter of time before this happened to a U.S. law firm and was publicly reported ... There is a widely held perception that U.S. law firms are the soft underbelly of corporate America when it comes to vulnerability of spying and hacking." http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/16/us-usa-security-lawyers-idUSBREA1F00X20140216 Can guess what country the USA/NSA was spying for? Hint? Do kangaroos jump? Edited February 17, 2014 by thailiketoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ableguy Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I don't have a problem with any of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sgtsabai Posted February 17, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2014 If you are critical of the US government, you might be searched, if you are a reporter and are critical of the US government you will be searched, detained, harassed and your electronic gear taken when you come back into the states. Some will not go back. Some people are not allowed back in, some are not allowed out. As a Vietnam Veteran Against the War I was an outspoken critic of US policy and the war in Vietnam. I was denied exit from the US along with my soon to be charged co-conspirator back in 1972. It was a Mexican border guard that told us, "it isn't my country, it is yours". A couple of weeks later the fumbling bureau of idiots began serving warrants. I had broken no law, was later released by Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas and the jury returned Not Guilty on all defendants. No, that was not justice. We never broke any law, the government just wanted to shut us up-didn't work. What is happening now isn't new, it is just 1,000 times worse and going to get worse unless the sheeple find their hind feet. Perhaps we should remember that Edward Snowden is trapped in Russia with a suspended passport and the threat of death hanging over his head because he spoke truth to the power by letting us know the degree of illegal spying done by the US. The US is a surveillance state bordering on a police state. Just another reason I won't return to the Corporate Police State of Amerika. If you don't have anything to hide you have nothing to fear?-bullsh t! I fail to understand how anyone can defend the searches we are subjected to coming back to the states as not being a violation of our rights. They may/do have the power, they don't have the right. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post herb59 Posted February 17, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2014 this topic is one of the reasons, why i will never go to the USA. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang000999 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 That they are doing these searches so infrequently leads me to believe that the main purpose is to make pedophiles aware that they could be searched in hopes that it is a deterrent. If it is 1 in 35,000 who cares? I would bet that many of these stories in the press are actually planted there... front page New York Times: I WAS STOPPED AND SEARCHED FOR CHILD PORN! now all the other pedophiles are scared.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post arjunadawn Posted February 17, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2014 "If it were one in 35,000, who cares?" An American Citizen was murdered by the Executive Branch of the USA recently; he was 1:Millions. Who cares? I care! As distasteful as Shi_bags like that are, no American should be murdered without due process, otherwise people could just get "disappeared." The US now has an extrajudicial star chamber of non elected persons routinely reviewing kill lists, with Americans having only a slightly higher criteria for execution. Gradualism is the hallmark of these slides into despotism. A country like the USA could never "transform" overnight; but "progressively?" Yes, it has, and when you remove one generation from the mores and ethics of the preceeding generation, you can enslave a people surely. Every person who states "I have nothing to hide" or "if they catch one [bad guy]," or "It'll keep us safe" contributes to the delusion that this is appropriate for a free people. Digital PC rectal exam at port of entry, without a warrant, is wrong! First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Trade Unionist. They they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me- and there was no one left to speak for me. M. Niemoller If you believe we are dealing with something less malignant, you are a fool! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farang000999 Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tchooptip Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Easy. If you do not want some federal employee rummaging through every photo your took on your Asian trip, just use the program TrueCrypt....It has two password levels, and is in essence uncrackable.... http://www.truecrypt.org/downloads Thanks for the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siamjimi Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 It's completely legal and pre-dates Obama. Jus had to spin Obama into it - its like Kevin Bacon relations when it comes to da man - I bet yo got u an Obama phone and waitin fo yo paychek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesWideOpen Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 They still torture me mentally. Only seeing a USA flag create horrible pain in my whole body. And these colors and stars.... Pouah... Disgusting.! :-( I only like a white cross on red. Flag of freedom fighters! Or bankers to the Nazis.....guess it depends on your point of view or the strength of your knowledge of history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wym Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjunadawn Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I also encrypt and use Steganos VPN which is an also encrypted tunnel. If anyone wanted it of course they could capture or crack but I dont secure my data because I am bad, I secure it because I feel offended that others would pry. Besides, in DXB and other locations, it is the only way to bypass censors and/or use skype. Even in Asia the VPN tunnels under the ISP and while data packets can be surmised, there is no way to know what traffic is sent. Be advised that in UK they have laws against personal encrypted data drives; Really! In the US they are now asserting that encryption itself is evidence of an intent to obstruct governmental administration. The DOJ's position is that encryption for the masses should be illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isawasnake Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Nothing at all wrong. If their actions catch at least one pedophile, all the privacy violations will be worth it. Imagine if it was your daughter being fiddled by some of the trash you see here in Thailand. People like you are what make the world a shitty place to live in. Get a clue. We could stop a lot of bad things "if".... cmon people, why are you liking this swill???? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isawasnake Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Look, guys, there are free cloud storage sites..... any number of ways to get any sort of data you want across country lines. These searches are not stopping anything. They are just another way to give governments more power, leeway and intimidation tactics (we know everything). What if I have some perfectly legal, yet very private pictures on there? The next time you "don't mind" something, think about all the people that do mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SageYoung Posted February 17, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2014 Oh don't we all feel safer now. Yep it's worth shredding the 4th amendment & all due process if it catches just one pedophile... Yet another reason I left the sheeples in the USSA. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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