No use of force against protesters: Civil Court

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Do you actually believe YL aNd Chalerm will follow any Cc ruling? They dont even follow their own constitution. They have been told many times and they gave speeches that they would not try to stop the protests. Yet each passing day they have proven that they do what they want and dont care about the peoples laws or care the people. They will do ANYTHING to make their position stronger and to make it appear they are in control.

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I wonder about that too...and what this ruling will mean to this government, if anything.

AFAIR, the day before the assault on protesters, Chalerm and Co. were claiming they would only employ "peaceful" means. Which, of course, ended up being rubber bullets, tear gas and live fire.

So if the authorities consider rubber bullets, tear gas and live fire as "peaceful" means, then they're probably thinking they're in compliance with a court order for no "violence" or "force". Not that they've ever concerned themselves too much with what the courts have ruled.

Edited February 19, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Cricketnut]

Does that mean that yesterdays 'crack-down' is now considered illegal?

I cant wait for the DSI to round up the CAMP-O leaders and throw them in jail... oh wait...

No, it was legal yesterday cause the court hadn't ruled on it.

Now I guess all they can do is Threaten to Disperse protesters - again and again and again?

You are wrong.

The situation has never been legal.

The constitutional court ruled long before that, the protests are legal, and under the constitution can not be broke up or dispersed.

Today's ruling from a second court backs up the fact that yesterday the CMPO and the police acted illegally and can indeed be brought to justice.

Excellent news, as a resident of Thailand I can now use force to occupy and invade government offices. Well thought out post I must say.... Think think before posts are written and be taken down in two simple paragraphs.

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[fab4]

Seriously, it's no wonder that there are major protests so often with rulings like this.

It's a rare occasion, but I wholeheartedly agree with you, what are they thinking.

[binjalin]

absolutely disgraceful and completely 'unbiased' of course

[bkkjames]

Careful or you may get team cmpo out there protesting that they cannot use force on protesters, including themselves.

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[binjalin]

anyway the saving grace is:

no lifting Emergency Decree AND

It cited an earlier ruling by the Constitution Court that the PDRC's rally is lawful as long as it is peaceful and without weapons.

So a 'non-peaceful' demo (i.e. taking government buildings) and any weapons (lots of evidence for that) means GO GET THEM!

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

Seriously, it's no wonder that there are major protests so often with rulings like this.

Like Yingluck, some of you have no respect for the Thai Constitution. The SOE is an act of parliament. It cannot trump a constitutional right. I believe that is one of the foundations of democracy, rule of law. If you don't like it, you can relocate to another country. So far, PTP has been unsuccessful and, in fact, unconstitutional in its attempts to rewrite the Constitution. None of their attempts, however, have tried to undermine the Thai right of protest. Thais consider it to be part of their version of democracy.

While I believe reasonable force can be used to expel protesters who have occupied government buildings (because that is a criminal act without regard to the SOE), the SOE cannot be used to justify force against citizens merely exercising their constitutional right of protest (by marching, engaging in speech, even blocking intersections).

Now, let's get on with bringing legal action against Chalerm for violation of constitutional rights. He's a menace and needs to be removed from office.

[rubl]

absolutely disgraceful and completely 'unbiased' of course

You question the wisdom of the court's ruling? If so, what makes you describe it as 'disgraceful', what's your reasoning for that.

As for the 'unbiased of course', well, only when it goes against you, but perfectly correct when it goes for you.

[pookiki]

If the PDRC was outside the court and threatening to drag the judges out of the building for doing their job, I wonder how they would feel about such a situation?

It is also somewhat of a bizarre situation to issue arrest warrants against protest leaders but how are police supposed to effectuate the warrants without the possibility of violence? Are unarmed police supposed to wade into the protest sites and arrest someone?

The upside is that these 'peaceful' demonstrations will drag on for at least several more months as the Thai economy goes sluggish. The downside is that these 'peaceful' demonstrations will drag on for at least several more months as the Thai economy goes sluggish.

For those that think this situation is going to be quickly resolved, please remember that Abhisit was just indicted last month for the incidents that occurred in 2010. Not making a comment on his guilt or innocence but just an observation as to the speed with which the Thai judiciary acts. And also the reds charged in 2010. For those who have the time to research this issue, is there anyone who can name a Thai person who is rich or politically connected who is serving a jail term for being convicted of a serious crime within the last ten years?

[Dogmatix]

So not much for Chalerm and CMPO to do any more. Guess the police rank and file dragged in from other provinces will be happy.

[Kan Win]

Does that mean that yesterdays 'crack-down' is now considered illegal?

I cant wait for the DSI to round up the CAMP-O leaders and throw them in jail... oh wait...

No, it was legal yesterday cause the court hadn't ruled on it.

Now I guess all they can do is Threaten to Disperse protesters - again and again and again?

You are wrong.

The situation has never been legal.

The constitutional court ruled long before that, the protests are legal, and under the constitution can not be broke up or dispersed.

Today's ruling from a second court backs up the fact that yesterday the CMPO and the police acted illegally and can indeed be brought to justice.

So, are you telling us that taking over Bangkok's Freedom and other Provinces to Travel is legal??????

Win, and I do travel a lot in and around Thailand

[Dogmatix]

Good. No more idiotic pushes to disband the protestors. Now that the court has ruled against using violence, they can't legally disband the protestors. If they try and someone dies, Chalerm and his band of official thugs can be held liable.

Any other Western and modern country wouldn't tolerate what Suthep is encouraging, let's be thankful that this is not in the Great USofA, Britain, Australia or elsewhere as there would be a whole lot more blood running down the streets.

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Which Western democracies would tolerate the massive graft and vote buying of the Thaksin regime? You need look no further than the rice pledging scheme on both counts.

[fab4]

So the emergency decree remains, but violence to disperse protesters is out. This can only be good news for the people on the streets as well as the country at large, because the underlying principle is that protests are a legal form of dissent in a free society. Chalerm wanted to do away with that. In terms of the emergency decree itself, the administration remains on constitutional thin ice, as an appeal to the Constitutional Court on the legality of its imposition will certainly be forthcoming at some point. For Chalerm, this has been a very bad week. His push yesterday to retake five protest areas ended in none of them being retaken, and with the tragic loss of life - four civilians and one policeman, as well as many dozens of injured. This ruling puts a stop to the carnage. And it places the administration in an ever tighter corner, as impeachment investigations continue, as the rice scandal continues to overwhelm them, and as a parliament sits idle with no quorum. The mechanisms of this administration's defeat are in motion, from a variety of angles, headed towards their day in court.

You'll just agree with anything won't you, as long as it suits your precious anti rallies.

Have you ever considered that people throwing grenades at police and shooting them is generating carnage? Surely you can't be that unintelligent.

[Dogmatix]

Good. No more idiotic pushes to disband the protestors. Now that the court has ruled against using violence, they can't legally disband the protestors. If they try and someone dies, Chalerm and his band of official thugs can be held liable.

Does the court ruling effectively lift the security forces' immunity under the Emergency Decree I wonder? If police are ordered to shoot someone under the SOE they might still have immunity but the people who gave the orders might not, since the court has ruled that is unlawful.

Legally they are probably better off now by rescinding the SOE and reverting to the ISA and CAPO. At least tourism will take a lesser hit, as many trips are automatically cancelled in a SOE. A good excuse to get rid of Chalerm whose performance can't have been very pleasing to his master. He is more of a liability than an asset.

[icommunity]

The Constitution Court judges earlier ruled that the PDRC's rally is lawful as long as it is peaceful and without weapons. No body want to challenge that. The judges also said criminal activities are not the jurisdiction of Constitution Court.

PTP or any petitioner should now submit new evidence that the demonstration is not peaceful. It is not demonstration but illegal activities engineered to seized power from a democratically elected government. Activities associated with the dem's pdrc/pcad have not been peaceful. Eg. threat to shut down BKK, Cutting of electricity and water supply. Violating the rights of others and abusing their constitutional right. Seizing and damaging of state offices and buildings. Threatening government officers to stop working and join protest against their will. Blocking and disrupting election process and physical assaulting voters. Armed retaliation when group want to help the distribution of ballot boxes and papers. Obstructing law enforcement officers from carrying out their duties and enforcing law and orders.

The speeches and activities of the dem's pdrc/pcad had endangered the peace and unity of Thailand and created national security problems and endangering the lives of the public.

Police should perform their duties to arrest those under arrest warrant. Anyone or groups would have committed criminal offense if they obstruct and retaliate officers who are carrying up their duties. Law enforcement officers have the right to defense themselves when they are in imminent danger.

[fab4]

absolutely disgraceful and completely 'unbiased' of course

You question the wisdom of the court's ruling? If so, what makes you describe it as 'disgraceful', what's your reasoning for that.

As for the 'unbiased of course', well, only when it goes against you, but perfectly correct when it goes for you.

Possibly because the courts say these are peaceful rallies. But of course you'll agree with them because people always throw grenades and shoot at policeman during peaceful rallies, don't they rubl.

In fact I bet you were cheering on the MIB back in 2010 for that very reason.

[Dogmatix]

They are now seeking an arrest warrant for Chitpas Kridakorn (nee Bhirompakdi), the attractive Singha beer heiress. Dumping her in the woman's remand prison with all the toms would be highly unsporting.

[rubl]

absolutely disgraceful and completely 'unbiased' of course

You question the wisdom of the court's ruling? If so, what makes you describe it as 'disgraceful', what's your reasoning for that.

As for the 'unbiased of course', well, only when it goes against you, but perfectly correct when it goes for you.

Possibly because the courts say these are peaceful rallies. But of course you'll agree with them because people always throw grenades and shoot at policeman during peaceful rallies, don't they rubl.

In fact I bet you were cheering on the MIB back in 2010 for that very reason.

Basicly peaceful at first when immediately found guilty of terrorism, rebellion and what more. At that time only protesting an undemocratic government which tried to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered Yingluck's first two years in office.

Apart from the verbal abuse, we also started to get the nightly getting shot at, grenades dropped, police protection totally failing. That's when a few guards started to get 'armed'. I saw k. Chalerm last Thursday smiling broadly (or was that smirking) when shown the enormous amount of WMD his 400 strong police force had captured from lots of dangerous and violent terrorists.

From the beginning police showed a bias against the anti-government protesters. Constant harassment, under cover and armed surveiance. Gunfights between unknowns and/or police and some armed protesters. CAPO, DSI and CMPO joined the fun. Arrest warrents, 'we want to talk', 'we will capture them', 'we talk too much', etc., etc. Will those who donate money to paid bail for 184 arrested 'terrorists' by requested to explain their action before the CMPO/DSI tribunal?

As for 2010, well the similarity seems that again unknowns helped against non-red-shirts/non-Thaksin supporters. Plus of course the grenades started dropping around the time a court ruled to confiscate 43 billion of Thaksin's illgotten gains and only returned about 30 billion to him and his relatives. Poor Shinawatras, lable them farmers and maybe the government will help them.

Edited February 19, 2014 by rubl

[pookiki]

The Constitution Court judges earlier ruled that the PDRC's rally is lawful as long as it is peaceful and without weapons. No body want to challenge that. The judges also said criminal activities are not the jurisdiction of Constitution Court.

PTP or any petitioner should now submit new evidence that the demonstration is not peaceful. It is not demonstration but illegal activities engineered to seized power from a democratically elected government. Activities associated with the dem's pdrc/pcad have not been peaceful. Eg. threat to shut down BKK, Cutting of electricity and water supply. Violating the rights of others and abusing their constitutional right. Seizing and damaging of state offices and buildings. Threatening government officers to stop working and join protest against their will. Blocking and disrupting election process and physical assaulting voters. Armed retaliation when group want to help the distribution of ballot boxes and papers. Obstructing law enforcement officers from carrying out their duties and enforcing law and orders.

The speeches and activities of the dem's pdrc/pcad had endangered the peace and unity of Thailand and created national security problems and endangering the lives of the public.

Police should perform their duties to arrest those under arrest warrant. Anyone or groups would have committed criminal offense if they obstruct and retaliate officers who are carrying up their duties. Law enforcement officers have the right to defense themselves when they are in imminent danger.

I agree but is this course of action viable and realistic? Any past precedents to rely on?

[edwardandtubs]

Non-violent protesters who shoot innocent people dead for trying to vote. The courts in Thailand are a sick joke.

[h90]

Good. No more idiotic pushes to disband the protestors. Now that the court has ruled against using violence, they can't legally disband the protestors. If they try and someone dies, Chalerm and his band of official thugs can be held liable.

Any other Western and modern country wouldn't tolerate what Suthep is encouraging, let's be thankful that this is not in the Great USofA, Britain, Australia or elsewhere as there would be a whole lot more blood running down the streets.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE 8.2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No in these countries Thaksin would be already in jail since 10 years.

Look at Italy....Berlusconi has a lot legal troubles even he is Mr. Clean in compare with Thaksin....So in the western country it wouldn't be necessary that normal citizen need to do the job of police and court.

[h90]

Non-violent protesters who shoot innocent people dead for trying to vote. The courts in Thailand are a sick joke.

when did which protester shoot voter dead?

[djjamie]

BANGKOK: -- The Civil Court on Wednesday ruled the state of emergency cannot be used as a reason for clamping down on the anti-government demonstrators.

whose demonstrations have so far been conducted peacefully.

BUT, what about the peoples rights of freedom to travel and work in some areas. This was and has been STOPPED by the anti-government demonstrators.

What about the freedom to travel and to VOTE in some areas, this was also STOPPED by the anti-government demonstrators.

You, The Civil Court are the Joke of the Year 2014. and do not know anything about the RULE OF CIVIL LAW. Do you? As we all have the Civil right of movement etc......this was also STOPPED by the anti-government demonstrators.

What you, The Civil Court should have mentioned was the Civil disobedience by the anti-government demonstrators taking over and ransacking government offices, and to leave right now all government properties and park your demonstrators in the DEEP SOUTH of Thailand where they came from.

The only good thing came out was, the street food vendors are making funds for their families which helps the poor folks.

I rest my case, me lord/s.

Win

You should start respecting the rule of law as without it we have anarchy. Anarchy is not democracy by the way.

Instead of denouncing the courts and fighting against a democratic society maybe the questions that need to be asked is what evidence have the courts received to make this judgement? The courts must know something we don't. We are, but internet warriors, most of who cannot speak, read or write Thai. We have a civil court judge making a ruling not based on articles in Bangkok Post and Thai Visa. They have people bringing them evidence, showing them video footage and presenting a case to back up their argument.

Maybe you should replace the PTP lawyer. Seems like he is doing a terrible job according the ruling given. Apparently it is not the courts you should be angry with. It should be the PTP lawyers for not presenting the facts as you have. BUT then, the PTP are never wrong are they and it is more simplistic and easy to blame the courts.

Edited February 19, 2014 by djjamie

[LadPhrao123]

absolutely disgraceful and completely 'unbiased' of course

You question the wisdom of the court's ruling? If so, what makes you describe it as 'disgraceful', what's your reasoning for that.

As for the 'unbiased of course', well, only when it goes against you, but perfectly correct when it goes for you.

Possibly because the courts say these are peaceful rallies. But of course you'll agree with them because people always throw grenades and shoot at policeman during peaceful rallies, don't they rubl.

In fact I bet you were cheering on the MIB back in 2010 for that very reason.

Basicly peaceful at first when immediately found guilty of terrorism, rebellion and what more. At that time only protesting an undemocratic government which tried to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered Yingluck's first two years in office.

Apart from the verbal abuse, we also started to get the nightly getting shot at, grenades dropped, police protection totally failing. That's when a few guards started to get 'armed'. I saw k. Chalerm last Thursday smiling broadly (or was that smirking) when shown the enormous amount of WMD his 400 strong police force had captured from lots of dangerous and violent terrorists.

From the beginning police showed a bias against the anti-government protesters. Constant harassment, under cover and armed surveiance. Gunfights between unknowns and/or police and some armed protesters. CAPO, DSI and CMPO joined the fun. Arrest warrents, 'we want to talk', 'we will capture them', 'we talk too much', etc., etc. Will those who donate money to paid bail for 184 arrested 'terrorists' by requested to explain their action before the CMPO/DSI tribunal?

As for 2010, well the similarity seems that again unknowns helped against non-red-shirts/non-Thaksin supporters. Plus of course the grenades started dropping around the time a court ruled to confiscate 43 billion of Thaksin's illgotten gains and only returned about 30 billion to him and his relatives. Poor Shinawatras, lable them farmers and maybe the government will help them.

You take great liberty with the truth and highly selective incidents to support protestors who have turned into an armed group, illegally occupying Bangkok with the goal of overthrowing a democratically elected government and blocking physically and through backhanded bureaucratic maneuvering the completion of an election and the ability of the government to handle it's responsibilities over governing a nation and it's obligations.

The people responsible for same should be in jail and anyone frustrating same peacefully or when necessary with force prevented from doing so.

The CAPO, DSI, CMPO and police have no responsibility to treat illegal acts and actors like anything other than criminals and discharge their duties as such. This isn't a party for wear 3 colors, blow a whistle, enjoy a night out blocking others in the intersections of a large city.

[rubl]

Just as an aside note, the situation in Kiev, Ukrania is still critical with police trying to dislodge anti-government protesters from the Independence Square. Since Tuesday morning there were at least 26 deaths including some police. The EC has been discussing the situation and according to observers it is likely that president Viktor Janukovitsj and his accomplises will be put on a 'black list'

Edited February 19, 2014 by rubl

[rubl]

Possibly because the courts say these are peaceful rallies. But of course you'll agree with them because people always throw grenades and shoot at policeman during peaceful rallies, don't they rubl.

In fact I bet you were cheering on the MIB back in 2010 for that very reason.

Basicly peaceful at first when immediately found guilty of terrorism, rebellion and what more. At that time only protesting an undemocratic government which tried to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered Yingluck's first two years in office.

Apart from the verbal abuse, we also started to get the nightly getting shot at, grenades dropped, police protection totally failing. That's when a few guards started to get 'armed'. I saw k. Chalerm last Thursday smiling broadly (or was that smirking) when shown the enormous amount of WMD his 400 strong police force had captured from lots of dangerous and violent terrorists.

From the beginning police showed a bias against the anti-government protesters. Constant harassment, under cover and armed surveiance. Gunfights between unknowns and/or police and some armed protesters. CAPO, DSI and CMPO joined the fun. Arrest warrents, 'we want to talk', 'we will capture them', 'we talk too much', etc., etc. Will those who donate money to paid bail for 184 arrested 'terrorists' by requested to explain their action before the CMPO/DSI tribunal?

As for 2010, well the similarity seems that again unknowns helped against non-red-shirts/non-Thaksin supporters. Plus of course the grenades started dropping around the time a court ruled to confiscate 43 billion of Thaksin's illgotten gains and only returned about 30 billion to him and his relatives. Poor Shinawatras, lable them farmers and maybe the government will help them.

You take great liberty with the truth and highly selective incidents to support protestors who have turned into an armed group, illegally occupying Bangkok with the goal of overthrowing a democratically elected government and blocking physically and through backhanded bureaucratic maneuvering the completion of an election and the ability of the government to handle it's responsibilities over governing a nation and it's obligations.

The people responsible for same should be in jail and anyone frustrating same peacefully or when necessary with force prevented from doing so.

The CAPO, DSI, CMPO and police have no responsibility to treat illegal acts and actors like anything other than criminals and discharge their duties as such. This isn't a party for wear 3 colors, blow a whistle, enjoy a night out blocking others in the intersections of a large city.

Totally agree. You take great liberty with the truth and be highly selective.

[edwardandtubs]

Non-violent protesters who shoot innocent people dead for trying to vote. The courts in Thailand are a sick joke.

when did which protester shoot voter dead?

They shot at people in Laksi and left one man paralysed. Hardly non-violent, regardless of whether they managed to kill anyone.

[blaze]

You should start respecting the rule of law as without it we have anarchy. Anarchy is not democracy by the way.

Instead of denouncing the courts and fighting against a democratic society maybe the questions that need to be asked is what evidence have the courts received to make this judgement? The courts must know something we don't. We are, but internet warriors, most of who cannot speak, read or write Thai. We have a civil court judge making a ruling not based on articles in Bangkok Post and Thai Visa. They have people bringing them evidence, showing them video footage and presenting a case to back up their argument.

Maybe you should replace the PTP lawyer. Seems like he is doing a terrible job according the ruling given. Apparently it is not the courts you should be angry with. It should be the PTP lawyers for not presenting the facts as you have. BUT then, the PTP are never wrong are they and it is more simplistic and easy to blame the courts.

It appears you don't understand the purpose of courts in Thailand- they exist not to guarantee individual rights to justice- not to apply the law as writtent- but to maintain harmony in society. And society of couarse means Bangkok society- everyone in their place-- doing what they must to ensure that the status quo is maintained.

Thaksin sought to modernize society by opening the door to capitalist competition- The feudal system of patronage and 'connections' was in jeopardy. Suthep seeks to rescue Thailand from the threat of the modern and return it to the glory years when the slaves/serfs were happy to grab a frog or rat from a canal and a low hanging fruit. And when any one wanting to join the merchant class would have to prostrate himself to a benefactor.

.

The courts are tio be commended for contributing to this bold step backwards.This is the job that the courts were tasked with-- maintain the 'system' using the authority invested in them.

For a decade now, the system has been under threat. The courts will see that these threats are nullified- starting by removing this government with its alien ideas about the open market, individual rights, and the social contract. SOCIAL contract? HAH When you have an army at your behest, you don't need a SOCIAL CONTRACT to legitimize rule.

Edited February 19, 2014 by blaze

[pookiki]

BANGKOK: -- The Civil Court on Wednesday ruled the state of emergency cannot be used as a reason for clamping down on the anti-government demonstrators.

whose demonstrations have so far been conducted peacefully.

BUT, what about the peoples rights of freedom to travel and work in some areas. This was and has been STOPPED by the anti-government demonstrators.

What about the freedom to travel and to VOTE in some areas, this was also STOPPED by the anti-government demonstrators.

You, The Civil Court are the Joke of the Year 2014. and do not know anything about the RULE OF CIVIL LAW. Do you? As we all have the Civil right of movement etc......this was also STOPPED by the anti-government demonstrators.

What you, The Civil Court should have mentioned was the Civil disobedience by the anti-government demonstrators taking over and ransacking government offices, and to leave right now all government properties and park your demonstrators in the DEEP SOUTH of Thailand where they came from.

The only good thing came out was, the street food vendors are making funds for their families which helps the poor folks.

I rest my case, me lord/s.

Win

You should start respecting the rule of law as without it we have anarchy. Anarchy is not democracy by the way.

Instead of denouncing the courts and fighting against a democratic society maybe the questions that need to be asked is what evidence have the courts received to make this judgement? The courts must know something we don't. We are, but internet warriors, most of who cannot speak, read or write Thai. We have a civil court judge making a ruling not based on articles in Bangkok Post and Thai Visa. They have people bringing them evidence, showing them video footage and presenting a case to back up their argument.

Maybe you should replace the PTP lawyer. Seems like he is doing a terrible job according the ruling given. Apparently it is not the courts you should be angry with. It should be the PTP lawyers for not presenting the facts as you have. BUT then, the PTP are never wrong are they and it is more simplistic and easy to blame the courts.

You raise a good point. Are court transcripts available to the general public? Is there any news outlet that covers court proceedings? Are court hearings such as this as this open to the general public? What 'quantum' of proof is required by the courts and who bears the burden of proof? Is there a discovery process? By and large, the Thai judicial system remains a dark mystery to me.

[StealthEnergiser]

Interesting from twitter link

Dear foreign press:

The Thai civil court's order today is one step closer to full scale judicial coup. By preserving the emergency decree in form but invalidating its key contents, the court rendered the decree almost pointless for the government.

Two points need to be stressed:

1. The factual determination in emergency situation falls under jurisdiction of the executive. This is granted by the emergency decree which could be stuck down only by the constitutional court but by letting the decree stay the court and any other courts have no jurisdiction over this issue.

2. The constitutional court's ruling only binds the civil court legally but not factually. That means the civil court is bound by legal interpretation but there is no judicial basis for the civil court to rely on factual determination by the constitutional court. The constitutional court determined the facts at one point in time but facts change by minute, therefore it is judicially impossible and legally illogical for the civil court to disregard the current situation and conveniently rely on the constitutional court's ruling.

In sum, the civil court basically teamed up with the constitutional court in attempts to intervene in the executive domain, where the court has no accountability, and pave ways for the protestors to claim pseudo legitimacy to overthrow the government.

Verapat Pariyawong

https://www.facebook.com/verapat/posts/10200964444627510