The most dangerous countries to drive in; Thailand ranks #2

[wilcopops]

Wilcops

"QED"

Are you confirming that I have confirmed my opinion by demonstration of fact or you have ? If it is the former, thank you for being honest, if it is the latter perhaps you should read my later post, a recent article quoted from the Phuket Gazette which truly does confirm my opinion and that of every expat who I know.

Out of interest, do you live in Thailand ? If you do are you in a village, City or tourist area ? Just curious.

SDM

QED - "used to convey that a fact or situation demonstrates the truth of one's theory or claim"

and this second post only emphasises this.

[wilcopops]

I for one really enjoy my life in Thailand and get on very well with most of the people I meet here.

I don't hate the country or the people but find the wasted 26000 lives every single year very tragic and can't for the life of me understand why nothing is done to stop the carnage.

As for the 'go home if you don't like it' comment where should my Thai mother in law go? Her son was killed by a drunk driver who escaped all liability by paying off the Police.

Where should my Thai friend go? Her father was killed by a drunk driver only last month.

I echo your comments and agree once you do a tally of the good and bad I think this is a wonderful place to live. It's not perfect but where is.

When you compare the loss of life here with that of a developed country such as the UK it is shocking. I live in Phuket and it seems that I see or witness an accident almost every day, bikes, cars, buses we get it all. Most are down to driver error, a few to mechanical failure.

I believe other causes fall into basic area ;

Apathy/Ability; Most Thais feel that driving is a simple skill that involves the basic ability to operate the vehicle. Many have no wish to improve their driving skills and if anything believe that the ability to, drive, drive fast, we might say recklessly, and not have an accident is confirmation of their driving ability. For those of us who learnt to drive in the West we know that the ability to drive the vehicle is the most basic part of being a competent driver. The most important part is awareness of our situation. By the use of our mirrors and observation most Western drivers are aware on an almost subconscious level of traffic that is behind us and to either wide, also traffic that was to our side and is now in a blind spot. One other difference is that when looking ahead most Thai drivers will be concentrating on the area immediately in front of their vehicle, as Western drivers we are taught to also be looking 500/1000 metres ahead.

Education; In the West we have a system whereby we are formerly taught to drive by a professional teacher, or a driver with experience and skill who no doubt would have had formal lessons him/herself. We are taught around a set of basic requirements/skills and when we have mastered those are allowed to do a formal test, which is also based on those same basic requirements. If we satisfy the test we are licensed to drive alone, or as some see it to continue our driver training alone with a basic set of minimum safety standards and skills. However over here there is no formal training requirement and skills are learned by experimentation and guesswork. Most Thai drivers are taught by a family member who learned in the same manner. In my opinion this is the route of the problem but since the fine for driving without a licence of is low or it is a very simple process to get a licence, coupled with the fact that drivers believe the ability to drive is no more difficult then riding a pushbike, it will never change. For anyone who doubts this let me mention a few buzzwords that will speak volumes; lane discipline, corner cutting, overtaking on bends and other inn appropriated situations, the list goes on and we all know it. These failings are because the drivers know no better.

Equipment failure is also a big problem here due to lack of maintenance, broken lights, faulty brakes etc.

SDM

Yet another view that is only partial........Why don't you brush up on the 5 Es and get the whole picture???

Edited March 3, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Basically, correct. It matters not how dangerous a country is. If you have a high standard of defensive driving, anticipation and able to do a basic risk assessment you will be able to stay safe and avoid these idiots.

I think broadly speaking this is correct but where I live it is very mountainous. We have had a number of incidents over the years where buses/trucks/WMDs (sorry, commuter vans) have lost control due to driving too fast or having their brakes overheat on the way down. Unfortunately if you are in front of one of these it really doesn't matter what style of driving you adopt.

SDM

Exactly.

If a truck behind you loses brakes on one of those roads Im afraid your past driving history is unlikely to affect the result unless it entitled you to an ejector seat. You could try arguing with the truck's compressor that you have driven the last billion miles (or whatever you claim it was) incident free and this shouldnt be happening to you.

Good luck with that.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Really? i think you are basing your theories of driving on LUCK.....you might find on investigation that this is an unsound approach to understanding road safety.

[wilcopops]

Nothing will change in Thailand because no one cares about anyone else in Thailand only me me and money money road safety is a million miles away, making a simple thing like wearing an appropriate certified crash helmet not a thin bit of plastic is far too difficult for a Thai to do or understand what it is for it’s our tradition and custom not to wear a helmet that’s why we all die on motorcycle accidents, we can’t afford to buy expensive helmet because I need all my wonderful money to buy the latest phone and more money to buy whisky for tonight, and also need money to pay police man fine for not wearing a helmet.

There's always one on every thread - the nihilistic "There's no point!" - "Can't do anything" brigade.

Edited March 3, 2014 by wilcopops

[NangrongJ]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Basically, correct. It matters not how dangerous a country is. If you have a high standard of defensive driving, anticipation and able to do a basic risk assessment you will be able to stay safe and avoid these idiots.

I think broadly speaking this is correct but where I live it is very mountainous. We have had a number of incidents over the years where buses/trucks/WMDs (sorry, commuter vans) have lost control due to driving too fast or having their brakes overheat on the way down. Unfortunately if you are in front of one of these it really doesn't matter what style of driving you adopt.

SDM

Exactly.

If a truck behind you loses brakes on one of those roads Im afraid your past driving history is unlikely to affect the result unless it entitled you to an ejector seat. You could try arguing with the truck's compressor that you have driven the last billion miles (or whatever you claim it was) incident free and this shouldnt be happening to you.

Good luck with that.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Really? i think you are basing your theories of driving on LUCK.....you might find on investigation that this is an unsound approach to understanding road safety.

It's down to training, if you've only had the basic entry level training and testing then even with experience you could get caught. Space, distance and anticipation (not reactions). There's no such thing as an accident, it's an incident and all are avoidable. You may disagree but that's an unqualified opinion. As an investigator, we look for the cause and it's 90% + human error. The rest, be it mechanical failure, blowouts or whatever is negligence and it's human negligence as well maintained vehicles do not just fail.

[simondan]

Basically, correct. It matters not how dangerous a country is. If you have a high standard of defensive driving, anticipation and able to do a basic risk assessment you will be able to stay safe and avoid these idiots.

I think broadly speaking this is correct but where I live it is very mountainous. We have had a number of incidents over the years where buses/trucks/WMDs (sorry, commuter vans) have lost control due to driving too fast or having their brakes overheat on the way down. Unfortunately if you are in front of one of these it really doesn't matter what style of driving you adopt.

SDM

Exactly.

If a truck behind you loses brakes on one of those roads Im afraid your past driving history is unlikely to affect the result unless it entitled you to an ejector seat. You could try arguing with the truck's compressor that you have driven the last billion miles (or whatever you claim it was) incident free and this shouldnt be happening to you.

Good luck with that.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Really? i think you are basing your theories of driving on LUCK.....you might find on investigation that this is an unsound approach to understanding road safety.

I m involved in this discussion more to defend the integrity of the stats and what they do and dont say.

I know you can be doing all the right things and someone you have never met and over whom you have no foreknowledge or control can come from 'nowhere' and kill you as you drive safely (although I make no claim to being a traffic expert at all). You can call that bad luck if you want.

So my point is simply that I believe past safe driving records don't mean you can't be killed tomorrow due to a third parties recklessness or poor decision or poor vehicle maintenance etc (eg brakes failing on a heavily laden heavy vehicle behind you on a steep downward trending road).

But Im not sure how you get from my post that I base my driving theory on luck? Because I believe 'bad luck' (or whatever) happens it doesn't follow at all that it is the basis for my 'theory of driving'.

As a consultant working with mostly mining companies in Australia Ive done numerous defensive driving and safety assessment courses provided by many different companies (so I've been exposed to a broad range of theories and teachers). Luck is not a significant factor in my opinion at all. But I can think of many examples in industry and on the road where fatalities have occurred to people who were driving or behaving safely and with full awareness.

An example is a taxi driver in Adelaide who entered an intersection on a green light (ie legally), a split second before an 1100 cc motorcycle being chased by the police entered the same intersection perpendicular to the taxi at approx 260 km/hr. Taxi driver, 50 years old with a clean driving record, killed on impact.

Its not likely to happen to you or me tomorrow, and the statistical chance of a freak accident happening (freak accident for the taxi - the motorcyclists death was hardly freak) where our contribution to the chain of events is just being there is probably infintesimally small. But it exists and for this type of accident, surely, how safely you were driving at the time makes little difference to the outcome (in fact, if the taxi was speeding he would have cleared the intersection and lived).

I stress that I am fully aware (as my previous posts in this same topic have already made clear) that most 'accidents' are in fact not accidents at all. My example above wasnt an accident either, clearly. But a safe driver who was driving safely still died.

If this is impossible please 'show me the light'.

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[wilcopops]

Exactly.

If a truck behind you loses brakes on one of those roads Im afraid your past driving history is unlikely to affect the result unless it entitled you to an ejector seat. You could try arguing with the truck's compressor that you have driven the last billion miles (or whatever you claim it was) incident free and this shouldnt be happening to you.

Good luck with that.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Really? i think you are basing your theories of driving on LUCK.....you might find on investigation that this is an unsound approach to understanding road safety.

I m involved in this discussion more to defend the integrity of the stats and what they do and dont say.

I know you can be doing all the right things and someone you have never met and over whom you have no foreknowledge or control can come from 'nowhere' and kill you as you drive safely (although I make no claim to being a traffic expert at all). You can call that bad luck if you want.

So my point is simply that I believe past safe driving records don't mean you can't be killed tomorrow due to a third parties recklessness or poor decision or poor vehicle maintenance etc (eg brakes failing on a heavily laden heavy vehicle behind you on a steep downward trending road).

But Im not sure how you get from my post that I base my driving theory on luck? Because I believe 'bad luck' (or whatever) happens it doesn't follow at all that it is the basis for my 'theory of driving'.

As a consultant working with mostly mining companies in Australia Ive done numerous defensive driving and safety assessment courses provided by many different companies (so I've been exposed to a broad range of theories and teachers). Luck is not a significant factor in my opinion at all. But I can think of many examples in industry and on the road where fatalities have occurred to people who were driving or behaving safely and with full awareness.

An example is a taxi driver in Adelaide who entered an intersection on a green light (ie legally), a split second before an 1100 cc motorcycle being chased by the police entered the same intersection perpendicular to the taxi at approx 260 km/hr. Taxi driver, 50 years old with a clean driving record, killed on impact.

Its not likely to happen to you or me tomorrow, and the statistical chance of a freak accident happening (freak accident for the taxi - the motorcyclists death was hardly freak) where our contribution to the chain of events is just being there is probably infintesimally small. But it exists and for this type of accident, surely, how safely you were driving at the time makes little difference to the outcome (in fact, if the taxi was speeding he would have cleared the intersection and lived).

I stress that I am fully aware (as my previous posts in this same topic have already made clear) that most 'accidents' are in fact not accidents at all. My example above wasnt an accident either, clearly. But a safe driver who was driving safely still died.

If this is impossible please 'show me the light'.

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I think if after all that training you haven't seen the light it is unlikely I'll make much difference.

i think that you have learned some safety basics but it looks like only by rote, you seem not to fully understand the theory you have studied. - there is a difference between study and learn.

"My example above wasnt an accident either, clearly." - example of what??

Edited March 3, 2014 by wilcopops

[NangrongJ]

Interested to read this above. I spent a year in Oz as a training consultant, training Oz trainers, which included training with mining companies such as Origin. But, back to the point. If all you've had is a few lessons and passed a basic entry level test and nothing else such as the world leading UK advanced driving tests (Diaomond/IAM & RoSPA) - I was an advanced instructor and examiner), then you are basically only giving an opinion and not and expert or relevant one, despite your time behind the wheel which can be confused as experience. Driving is one subject that entitles anyone with a penis to comment as an expert. Sadly, it's not a matter of opinion, but an opinion that matters and my opinion is a professional one. I respect that I may piss off a few people with this comment but the thing about facts is they always outlast opinions, so responding without any form of credibility or evidence is basically irrelevant and does make a constructive contribution to the debate.

[jero]

Basically, correct. It matters not how dangerous a country is. If you have a high standard of defensive driving, anticipation and able to do a basic risk assessment you will be able to stay safe and avoid these idiots.

And drive the largest vehicle you possibly can afford. Big has right of way in Thailand, correct?

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[muchogra]

Within Thailand, the driving custom varies also. In CM, people run red light a few seconds after it turns red.

My BIL in Bangkok hits the peddle as soon as the light turns from red to yellow. If he drives in CM, an accident is waiting for him. For me, I adapt to the locality I'm in!

Overall, CM drivers are loudsier than those in Bangkok. Motorcyclists here in CM are ridiculously ignorant, putting their lives in the hand of the motorists. They don't seem to use their mirrors! I've been told that Issarn is worst, but don't know if it's true!

[simondan]

I think if after all that training you haven't seen the light it is unlikely I'll make much difference.

i think that you have learned some safety basics but it looks like only by rote, you seem not to fully understand the theory you have studied. - there is a difference between study and

Wilcopops, you are a big stirrer!

You make short judgements that cant be supported by the post you respond to but that sound sort of smart if you didnt actually read the post.

But in the end you make no case to support your judgement. Its all piss and wind.

What about actually addressing what was said. Go on, give us some substance!

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[Munger]

I don't understand why people who hate Thailand and Thai people and consider this to be one of the most dangerous places on earth (for driving at least) come to this country and waste their time posting in this forum.

Why don't you go back to your own country and find a forum there where you can post about how wonderful it is.

Being positive might make you feel a lot better about yourself.

Having said that, its a complete waste of time posting on this topic as it has degenerated into moaning and trading insults

You thai apologists need to grow some skin.How many more replys are you going to post on this thread ?, trying to defend thai driving. Why are you apologists in soo much pain when you read the truth about road accidents. Do you want to try to defend the bus crash last week, killing 15 ? As for trading insults and moaning that would be you "Artist"

[simondan]

Interested to read this above. I spent a year in Oz as a training consultant, training Oz trainers, which included training with mining companies such as Origin. But, back to the point. If all you've had is a few lessons and passed a basic entry level test and nothing else such as the world leading UK advanced driving tests (Diaomond/IAM & RoSPA) - I was an advanced instructor and examiner), then you are basically only giving an opinion and not and expert or relevant one, despite your time behind the wheel which can be confused as experience. Driving is one subject that entitles anyone with a penis to comment as an expert. Sadly, it's not a matter of opinion, but an opinion that matters and my opinion is a professional one. I respect that I may piss off a few people with this comment but the thing about facts is they always outlast opinions, so responding without any form of credibility or evidence is basically irrelevant and does make a constructive contribution to the debate.

Now THATS pontificating!

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[SDM0712]

I for one really enjoy my life in Thailand and get on very well with most of the people I meet here.

I don't hate the country or the people but find the wasted 26000 lives every single year very tragic and can't for the life of me understand why nothing is done to stop the carnage.

As for the 'go home if you don't like it' comment where should my Thai mother in law go? Her son was killed by a drunk driver who escaped all liability by paying off the Police.

Where should my Thai friend go? Her father was killed by a drunk driver only last month.

I echo your comments and agree once you do a tally of the good and bad I think this is a wonderful place to live. It's not perfect but where is.

When you compare the loss of life here with that of a developed country such as the UK it is shocking. I live in Phuket and it seems that I see or witness an accident almost every day, bikes, cars, buses we get it all. Most are down to driver error, a few to mechanical failure.

I believe other causes fall into basic area ;

Apathy/Ability; Most Thais feel that driving is a simple skill that involves the basic ability to operate the vehicle. Many have no wish to improve their driving skills and if anything believe that the ability to, drive, drive fast, we might say recklessly, and not have an accident is confirmation of their driving ability. For those of us who learnt to drive in the West we know that the ability to drive the vehicle is the most basic part of being a competent driver. The most important part is awareness of our situation. By the use of our mirrors and observation most Western drivers are aware on an almost subconscious level of traffic that is behind us and to either wide, also traffic that was to our side and is now in a blind spot. One other difference is that when looking ahead most Thai drivers will be concentrating on the area immediately in front of their vehicle, as Western drivers we are taught to also be looking 500/1000 metres ahead.

Education; In the West we have a system whereby we are formerly taught to drive by a professional teacher, or a driver with experience and skill who no doubt would have had formal lessons him/herself. We are taught around a set of basic requirements/skills and when we have mastered those are allowed to do a formal test, which is also based on those same basic requirements. If we satisfy the test we are licensed to drive alone, or as some see it to continue our driver training alone with a basic set of minimum safety standards and skills. However over here there is no formal training requirement and skills are learned by experimentation and guesswork. Most Thai drivers are taught by a family member who learned in the same manner. In my opinion this is the route of the problem but since the fine for driving without a licence of is low or it is a very simple process to get a licence, coupled with the fact that drivers believe the ability to drive is no more difficult then riding a pushbike, it will never change. For anyone who doubts this let me mention a few buzzwords that will speak volumes; lane discipline, corner cutting, overtaking on bends and other inn appropriated situations, the list goes on and we all know it. These failings are because the drivers know no better.

Equipment failure is also a big problem here due to lack of maintenance, broken lights, faulty brakes etc.

SDM

Yet another view that is only partial........Why don't you brush up on the 5 Es and get the whole picture???

You seem to be posting in English, but I have no idea what you are talking about. What are "the 5 Es" ?

Also you haven't explained what you mean by "quod erat demonstrandum" in your earlier post. As I said in that case I understand the definition perfectly, what I do not understand is how you are attempting to apply it.

Is English your first language ?

SDM

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[SDM0712]

Basically, correct. It matters not how dangerous a country is. If you have a high standard of defensive driving, anticipation and able to do a basic risk assessment you will be able to stay safe and avoid these idiots.

I think broadly speaking this is correct but where I live it is very mountainous. We have had a number of incidents over the years where buses/trucks/WMDs (sorry, commuter vans) have lost control due to driving too fast or having their brakes overheat on the way down. Unfortunately if you are in front of one of these it really doesn't matter what style of driving you adopt.

SDM

Exactly.

If a truck behind you loses brakes on one of those roads Im afraid your past driving history is unlikely to affect the result unless it entitled you to an ejector seat. You could try arguing with the truck's compressor that you have driven the last billion miles (or whatever you claim it was) incident free and this shouldnt be happening to you.

Good luck with that.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Really? i think you are basing your theories of driving on LUCK.....you might find on investigation that this is an unsound approach to understanding road safety.

Clearly you have not understood this post and taken the literal meaning rather than the intended meaning which highlights that driving skill plays no part in this scenario. To survive this kind of accident is truly more down to luck than skill.

SDM

[simondan]

Exactly.

If a truck behind you loses brakes on one of those roads Im afraid your past driving history is unlikely to affect the result unless it entitled you to an ejector seat. You could try arguing with the truck's compressor that you have driven the last billion miles (or whatever you claim it was) incident free and this shouldnt be happening to you.

Good luck with that.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Really? i think you are basing your theories of driving on LUCK.....you might find on investigation that this is an unsound approach to understanding road safety.

I m involved in this discussion more to defend the integrity of the stats and what they do and dont say.

I know you can be doing all the right things and someone you have never met and over whom you have no foreknowledge or control can come from 'nowhere' and kill you as you drive safely (although I make no claim to being a traffic expert at all). You can call that bad luck if you want.

So my point is simply that I believe past safe driving records don't mean you can't be killed tomorrow due to a third parties recklessness or poor decision or poor vehicle maintenance etc (eg brakes failing on a heavily laden heavy vehicle behind you on a steep downward trending road).

But Im not sure how you get from my post that I base my driving theory on luck? Because I believe 'bad luck' (or whatever) happens it doesn't follow at all that it is the basis for my 'theory of driving'.

As a consultant working with mostly mining companies in Australia Ive done numerous defensive driving and safety assessment courses provided by many different companies (so I've been exposed to a broad range of theories and teachers). Luck is not a significant factor in my opinion at all. But I can think of many examples in industry and on the road where fatalities have occurred to people who were driving or behaving safely and with full awareness.

An example is a taxi driver in Adelaide who entered an intersection on a green light (ie legally), a split second before an 1100 cc motorcycle being chased by the police entered the same intersection perpendicular to the taxi at approx 260 km/hr. Taxi driver, 50 years old with a clean driving record, killed on impact.

Its not likely to happen to you or me tomorrow, and the statistical chance of a freak accident happening (freak accident for the taxi - the motorcyclists death was hardly freak) where our contribution to the chain of events is just being there is probably infintesimally small. But it exists and for this type of accident, surely, how safely you were driving at the time makes little difference to the outcome (in fact, if the taxi was speeding he would have cleared the intersection and lived).

I stress that I am fully aware (as my previous posts in this same topic have already made clear) that most 'accidents' are in fact not accidents at all. My example above wasnt an accident either, clearly. But a safe driver who was driving safely still died.

If this is impossible please 'show me the light'.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I think if after all that training you haven't seen the light it is unlikely I'll make much difference.

i think that you have learned some safety basics but it looks like only by rote, you seem not to fully understand the theory you have studied. - there is a difference between study and learn.

"My example above wasnt an accident either, clearly." - example of what??

Er, the paragraph that starts 'an example is'. The one 'above' the quoted comment as you scroll down.

I think you have learned some basics of reading and English comprehension but apparently only by rote, you seem not to fully understand clear unequivocal English.

You display no apparent understanding of what you read beyond an ability to respond in a superficial and childishly aggressive manner, with responses that evade the issue the hand thus revealing an intellectual inferiority complex of stupendous measure.

You have the ability to regurgitate well known quotes but your use of them does not suggest understanding beyond a basic grasp of word order and cliche.

I think you may have learned something of the theory of responding constructively using structured arguments but you seem not to fully grasp it.

There is a difference between study and learn.

LOL:blink:

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[SDM0712]

Simondan

I'm not really sure which of our "friends " you are referring to, but if it's Wilcopops I believe you have hit the nail on the head.

I think he/she probably is English speaking as a first language, but for some reason feels that need to enhance posts with phrases designed to create the impression that he/she is a more accomplished debater than he or she actually is. This a shame because here as in life there is no need for it. If someone has something to say then say it, we don't need icing on top. By the same token if someone has nothing constructive to add, then why bother for example making a post that merely copies another persons and then just adds a Latin phrase which is only really used in the main by academics today, especially when the phrase is used incorrectly in anycase.

Now that truly is QED!

SDM

[simondan]

Simondan

I'm not really sure which of our "friends " you are referring to, but if it's Wilcopops I believe you have hit the nail on the head.

I think he/she probably is English speaking as a first language, but for some reason feels that need to enhance posts with phrases designed to create the impression that he/she is a more accomplished debater than he or she actually is. This a shame because here as in life there is no need for it. If someone has something to say then say it, we don't need icing on top. By the same token if someone has nothing constructive to add, then why bother for example making a post that merely copies another persons and then just adds a Latin phrase which is only really used in the main by academics today, especially when the phrase is used incorrectly in anycase.

Now that truly is QED!

SDM

It was the popsicle alright.

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[simondan]

Interested to read this above. I spent a year in Oz as a training consultant, training Oz trainers, which included training with mining companies such as Origin. But, back to the point. If all you've had is a few lessons and passed a basic entry level test and nothing else such as the world leading UK advanced driving tests (Diaomond/IAM & RoSPA) - I was an advanced instructor and examiner), then you are basically only giving an opinion and not and expert or relevant one, despite your time behind the wheel which can be confused as experience. Driving is one subject that entitles anyone with a penis to comment as an expert. Sadly, it's not a matter of opinion, but an opinion that matters and my opinion is a professional one. I respect that I may piss off a few people with this comment but the thing about facts is they always outlast opinions, so responding without any form of credibility or evidence is basically irrelevant and does make a constructive contribution to the debate.

Nangrong, I hope you read your opposing expert witness statements more thoroughly than you read my short post. Did you see the bit where I acknowledged I wasnt an expert in road traffic incidents? The post was reasoned and had an example to illustrate my point. The point was straightforward and hardly needing expert status to make. It ended with an invitation to tell me where I was wrong if the reader disagreed (ie 'show me the light').

So why post a reply that reads although I had claimed expert status and was making wild and sweeping conclusions (like 'Ive driven here for 10 yrs and Im OK so how can you say its dangerous')? Some would call your response inaccurate or even dishonest but I think theres more going on here. Instead of addressing the point (which is surely what an expert with an 'opinion that matters' would do) you took another opportunity to tell us how exalted you are.

My God! Spare us! Methinks the lady doth protest too much!

I get it. You are an acknowledged expert. Im not (no problem, road traffic experts are a dime a dozen compared to my field - but this is about you). For God's sake move on.

BTW, 'its not a matter of opinion but an opinion that matters' is nonsensical. Did you coin that yourself? Is that a Nangrong saying?

I'll bet you're a real hit at parties.

'Hi, Im Nangrong fron the Land of Hope and Glory. I was in Orstralia recently teaching the colonials how to drive. Im a registered road traffic expert dont you know. Sadly, its not a matter of opinion but an opinion that matters, and mine is a professional one. Did I mention Im a registered road traffic expert? Sometimes I forget to mention it less than a dozen times.'

Next time just address the issue with the knowledge and ability Im sure you have and drop the sanctimonious crap. Please.

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[Artist]

Where facts are few, experts are many

[NangrongJ]

You seem to have a lot to say about me but nothing about yourself. I limit my comments and opinions to matters within my knowledge and experience. You seem to have a difficulty with that. It's because of Walter Mittys like you that I restrict my time on this particular forum.

It must be very lonely down there.

[simondan]

Which is as it should be. If you can't or won't actually engage with the subject matter then you're wasting space and time.

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[NangrongJ]

Let me explain something to you advanced member simondan. You're obviously offended but it's why you are offended that amuses me. The reason why I was asked to go to Australia (and 38 other countries), is not because I am better than you or whatever. International companies, in particular, oil, gas and mining require international standards and therefor standardisation - standardisation is more important than standards, at least in the early stages. I was highly impressed by what I saw in terms of health & safety by mining companies in Oz. And, having been to many other countries I can now see why Australian companies are sending their expertise in mining to China and South Africa. In an international market where training and expertise is required there is a constant flow of people. I know that the Australian military, safety and security training establishments are overwhelmed by enquiries worldwide.

So, if you are offended by someone who has more knowledge and or experience in a subject that is open for discussion you have two options. Ask questions of restrict your comments to within your very limited experience. Making neanderthal posts about and too another poster only reflects upon you.

[simondan]

Im not offended. Just engaging in a bit of Pom-baiting. My apologies. I'd rather just discuss the topic. But if you want to denigrate my post by claiming things I never represented or said, then 'play the man and not the ball' (by belittling my experience), really, what do you expect?

I m as bored as you are with rubbish personal attack posts. Which is why some of your responses are difficult to reconcile.

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[SDM0712]

Simondan

It was the popsicle alright.

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I imagined it would be, now noted by his absense.

[SDM0712]

...................Just engaging in a bit of Pom-baiting. ....................................

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Don't worry we are very tolerant with folk from the colonies, they are very young and know no better. (I haven't got the "emotions" but if I did they would be laughing!)

SDM

[SDM0712]

To get back on track, have we mentioned road quality and systems as a contributing factor?

In Phuket we have several crossroads where the traffic light either have never worked or have amber blinking constantly, and not for a few days or weeks, but for years. That can't be safe!

Also, I was doing a regular trip over Patong Hill, AKA Death Mountain a few days ago. It’s always had a bike lane on the very left. Some forward thinking person somewhere has decided to widen this bike lane. A very good idea because impatient souls like myself ( I do have to hold my hands up to that) squeeze in between the slower moving bikes and the cars to get past. There is enough room with perhaps some spare to do this. But there remained the original white line in the middle of the now extended lane. Now as anyone who rides a bike knows it's not great to ride over lines in the road, they are slippery normally and even more so in the in the wet. They cause instability when we go over them and can be dangerous. Now most Thais must know this because they have all been riding since they could walk. It wasn’t really a big deal because the original white line was worn anyway. Here comes the “brilliance”, for whatever reason the road department no doubt wanting to rid themselves of the out of place white line, now in the centre of the bike lane, decided to paint it with lovely new shiny black paint rather than burn it off, making it very unsafe and its smack bang in the middle of a narrow lane.

A night or so later I took my Ninja into Patong and the mountain was jammed with stationary cars, normally a sign that another bus has lost control or some other calamity. It’s a regular occurrence. Anyway, the bikes were moving and as I got to the top I saw the cause, a bike on the road, an old Thai man covered in blood, his helmet a metre away and a young girl in tears trying to wake him. The odd thing was that no car had gone over the man or bike and clearly he didn’t start off in the car lane because of the angle of the bike on the ground. So one could surmise that something has caused him to leave the bike lane and fall off. Clearly either he lost control or someone else lost control and forced him over. We will never know if it was this new black line, there is a good chance.

SDM

[NBD]

Don't want to rain on anyone's let's bitch about Thailand parade, but you are aware that it's deaths per hundred thousand residents, not a more meaningful measure like passenger kilometers or even car owners. Thailand has high levels of car ownership on that list - 206/100,000 in 2012 (so I expect it will have increased since then. Sudan has 27, less than 1/5th as many cars per 100,000 people, yet still manages to have (36/44=) 80% as many deaths.

Also Thailand has relatively good roads - stop laughing - it has motorways and good wide highways where you can cruise at 120kp/h for hours, while Namibia from my limited understanding is mostly gravel roads, with very little traffic.

[dude123]

Only been to Thailand once, but I have to admit, after coming from a western country, Thailand is a little scary at first. Never forgot the scene of old people hurrying to step onto moving buses in Bangkok and pedestrians dodging traffic everywhere. I don't know if it is true that Thailand is the second most dangerous place on the planet to drive, but my wife's father was killed in a car accident and her sister.was killed in a bus accident.

Edited March 5, 2014 by dude123

[Munger]

Where facts are few, experts are many

Where thai road accident stats. are posted on this forum, Thai apologists are MANY.