Work permit and visa without a degree?

[James999BKK]

Can anyone give me any reliable, first hand information regarding how schools go about hiring teachers without a degree? I know that the rules say that it is necessary to have one, but I also know that many schools manage to 'legally' employ teachers that do not have the required credentials and also manage to get these employees their work permits etc.

[sirchai]

There're ways to go around the TCT, which would be a little change of the contract. Then you'd NOT be working as a teacher, but as a trainer, or teacher's assistant. Most schools do have their connections to the labor department and if they want to hire you, they will find a way to do so.

If that works out for you, you've got nothing to do with the Kurusapa in Bangkok.( TCT) Wish you best of luck, I'm also wondering why those guys, who're actually legally working as trainers, or whatsoever, don't write about their experiences.

C'Mon guys, how did it work out for you?-

[SlyAnimal]

Often the department of Labour will provide work permits for trainers etc.

If you want to extend your visa based on employment though, immigration know about the trainer loophole people use, and they don't like to see people using it. At least in Amnat Charoen anyway, where I saw a "trainer" declined last time I was there.

When the Thai staff member started to argue, the immigration officer pretty much said to their Thai staff member (In Thai) "Recently a lot of schools have tried to do this. The dept of Labour isn't doing their job correctly, which is why we also check your documents. What you're trying to do is illegal, and I'm a police officer"

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[Scott]

We had a teacher who had a 4 year degree, but did not have a copy of it because he owed money to his school. He did, have an associate degree and transcript and he had a letter that he had attended the school for his Bachelor's. Without the degree and transcript, they would not give him the Work Permit. After some discussion, they agreed to list him as a teaching assistant for one year.

He was told his work permit would not be renewed without the Bachelor's degree. They remembered by the way, and he did get his bills paid and had the proper paperwork.

Our school was advised not to try it again, although it wasn't us who tried it....it was their suggestion.

[angsta]

We had a teacher who had a 4 year degree, but did not have a copy of it because he owed money to his school. He did, have an associate degree and transcript and he had a letter that he had attended the school for his Bachelor's.

From Detroit? Blonde hair? He hasn't got a degree...sorry, back on topic.

[Scott]

No, actually the person I am referring to is a non-native speaker and he was a subject teacher (not teaching English). His degree was authentic -- or one of the best and most complicated frauds I've seen. Because time was running out, our school had to contact his university to try to expedite the paperwork being sent.

[angsta]

Oh, OK. But that 'my degree is being kept by another school/at my parents in Canada who I don't get on with/left at my old apartment in Hua Hin/I only have transcripts' is pretty old already.

I know teachers who work at a Satit school on the grounds of a large University who have work permits but don't have degrees. They have had no problems with paperwork. They are not Bangkok based however.

[sirchai]

Oh, OK. But that 'my degree is being kept by another school/at my parents in Canada who I don't get on with/left at my old apartment in Hua Hin/I only have transcripts' is pretty old already.

I know teachers who work at a Satit school on the grounds of a large University who have work permits but don't have degrees. They have had no problems with paperwork. They are not Bangkok based however.

Please be aware that some people here just buy a fake visa and work permit. I'd worked with a Brit and he didn't even give up when I'd told him to leave the country immediately. His statement was that he didn't wanted to lose his status.\

The nice guy at Phiboonmangsahan knew that there';s something wrong and he could leave Thailand, together with the proper paper work.

They'd forgotten to put the Ayuddhaja Immigration stamp on said visa. And the Brit was pretty ignorant.

Only my good relationship to the Immigration, plus our Thai head teacher had saved his arse. Unbelievable, but true. Was there and felt pretty bad.-

\

[James999BKK]

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the time taken.

I've been working for my school through an agency this year and now they say they are really happy with what I've done at the school and want me to stay and be employed directly by them. I'd be happy to do this as it would improve my contract in basically all areas and give me some (relative) stability. Of course now it's a problem because I don't have a degree and this coupled to the fact that the school has never hired a foreigner before means that both the school and I are pretty much at a loss as to how to go about it.

I'd never have even come to Thailand if the TEFL course correspondent had been completely honest with me in the email stage of my application and told me straight that it was impossible to work legally as a teacher in a school here without a degree. But now I'm here, well, in for a penny in for a pound and all that...

[aidenai]

Three things to keep in mind.

1) The agency you work with might have a paragraph in the employment contract with either you, the school or both, describing the non-competition agreement which prohibits you to work directly for the school for a certain period of time after finishing employment with the agency.

If your school is a basic education school

2) Immigration has adopted the requirements set by The Teachers' Council of Thailand since 2008

3) Labour has adopted requirements set by The Teachers' Council of Thailand since 2010

To comply with the requirements set by The Teachers' Council of Thailand i.e. holding a teacher license or provisional teaching permit, a teacher must hold a university degree.

[SlyAnimal]

It'd probably be a good idea to check your contract with the agency, as they may have a restraint of trade clause in your contract, or it might be in the contract which the school has with the agency. As usually they don't allow teachers who were part of their agency, to be directly employed by the school (Else legal proceedings / fines can follow, or they may have a clause which allows the school to do so under certain conditions).

Either way, it'd be best to ensure that you're aware of any potential risks which you or your school might face.

[JimMagee]

If you already have a visa and just want to teach English, there are many schools in the rural areas of Thailand who will hire native English speaking teachers full time or part time without a work permit or degree. You need to befriend a local Thai teacher and ask them to introduce you to the Principal of the school. Many schools want foreign English teachers but don't know how to find one and don't want to go through all the paperwork to formally get one through proper channels. Many schools have cash they can use to pay teachers without getting district approval. The cash comes from donations of the local people and the Principal has total control over how the money is used.

Edited February 25, 2014 by JimMagee

[sirchai]

Oh, OK. But that 'my degree is being kept by another school/at my parents in Canada who I don't get on with/left at my old apartment in Hua Hin/I only have transcripts' is pretty old already.

I know teachers who work at a Satit school on the grounds of a large University who have work permits but don't have degrees. They have had no problems with paperwork. They are not Bangkok based however.

Gotta love the parents in Canada who kept it for him, as they needed it more than he did/does. Sounds like a true story to me.Aeeh, no.-

[sirchai]

If you already have a visa and just want to teach English, there are many schools in the rural areas of Thailand who will hire native English speaking teachers full time or part time without a work permit or degree. You need to befriend a local Thai teacher and ask them to introduce you to the Principal of the school. Many schools want foreign English teachers but don't know how to find one and don't want to go through all the paperwork to formally get one through proper channels. Many schools have cash they can use to pay teachers without getting district approval. The cash comes from donations of the local people and the Principal has total control over how the money is used.

If he does have a Non-B it's chained to the agency, as they'd to come up with the needed documents for him, as well.

The part to befriend a Thai teacher is funny. How do you do that? Buy him a bottle of Regency?

The cash most schools have is coming from not really wanted donations from parents, some money from Bangkok for stuff that was never done.

Yep, the principal has total command of the cash, but would prefer to keep his Benz/ Lamborghini/ Lear Jet.

Agencies usually have a deal with the school that teachers provided by them are not allowed to work there for two years after the employment with the agency ends.

What do you mean with district approval? Seems that more and more labor departments are connected and try to stop the bypass being a trainer, but doing the same teaching job.

[James999BKK]

Thanks again for the extra info.

I know my contract has a clause saying I'm not allowed to negotiate work with the school whilst I'm employed by the agency so I'll be careful not to do that. To be honest though from the sounds of things it's going to be a non starter anyway, shame.

[Mario2008]

If you already have a visa and just want to teach English, there are many schools in the rural areas of Thailand who will hire native English speaking teachers full time or part time without a work permit or degree. You need to befriend a local Thai teacher and ask them to introduce you to the Principal of the school. Many schools want foreign English teachers but don't know how to find one and don't want to go through all the paperwork to formally get one through proper channels. Many schools have cash they can use to pay teachers without getting district approval. The cash comes from donations of the local people and the Principal has total control over how the money is used.

If he does have a Non-B it's chained to the agency, as they'd to come up with the needed documents for him, as well.

The part to befriend a Thai teacher is funny. How do you do that? Buy him a bottle of Regency?

The cash most schools have is coming from not really wanted donations from parents, some money from Bangkok for stuff that was never done.

Yep, the principal has total command of the cash, but would prefer to keep his Benz/ Lamborghini/ Lear Jet.

Agencies usually have a deal with the school that teachers provided by them are not allowed to work there for two years after the employment with the agency ends.

What do you mean with district approval? Seems that more and more labor departments are connected and try to stop the bypass being a trainer, but doing the same teaching job.

District approval probably means a letter from the education area office, required by labour and immigration, besides a letter from the school director.

[sirchai]

Thanks again for the extra info.

I know my contract has a clause saying I'm not allowed to negotiate work with the school whilst I'm employed by the agency so I'll be careful not to do that. To be honest though from the sounds of things it's going to be a non starter anyway, shame.

. I've met quite a few guys here who were planning to start to work for the school directly.

Agencies usually have a contract with their schools that they're not allowed to hire anybody who works for same agency.It's possible that their contract's stating, that you can't be hired before a two year break.

Most school directors don't go that way, once they believe something could happen.They don't wanna bite the hand that's feeding them.

Best would be to find a decent school that doesn't have foreigners who work for agencies.

A pretty good time to look for a job is now. Good luck.-

[recom273]

Well done, you must be doing well.

But you have to ask yourself why does the school want to take you from the agency and how will you benefit.

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[sirchai]

Well done, you must be doing well.

But you have to ask yourself why does the school want to take you from the agency and how will you benefit.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Seems that they like his teaching. The benefits of direct employment are outstanding. A 12 months contract with Thai social security, more rights than being just a number at an agency.

Last, but not least, agencies pretty often lose their contracts with schools. A real chance to settle down, if you like the area. And a lot of more reasons.

I remember a guy criticising me making less money a month, but when I made my math, i had a higher salary over the period of a year, as I get paid

through.

And less headaches regarding all the other stuff.

[recom273]

Yes and I hope that would be so .. The guy has worked hard and they want to keep him for the long run, give him further benefits.

But maybe they are looking swerve the agency commision, extract a little more work for their money, perhaps change the rota. Just everything needs to be considered before breaking a contract and possibly landing yourself in trouble with the agency.

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[Scott]

I have met a few people who have worked for agencies. They liked moving around and experiencing different places and schools. It would get old after a while, I would think.

[HeijoshinCool]

If you already have a visa and just want to teach English, there are many schools in the rural areas of Thailand who will hire native English speaking teachers full time or part time without a work permit or degree. You need to befriend a local Thai teacher and ask them to introduce you to the Principal of the school. Many schools want foreign English teachers but don't know how to find one and don't want to go through all the paperwork to formally get one through proper channels. Many schools have cash they can use to pay teachers without getting district approval. The cash comes from donations of the local people and the Principal has total control over how the money is used.

The part to befriend a Thai teacher is funny. How do you do that? Buy him a bottle of Regency?

Actually, almost.

When I first came here I wandered around checking things out. Ended up in a small town in early May, near a bunch of waterfalls, thought I liked it, and wanted to rent a place for a month.

So I found the city offices. I spoke virtually no Thai. I asked a guy if he knew of a house for rent. He spoke very little English, but understood "house" and "rent."

But he wasn't much interested and the conversation stalled so, hoping for a bit of help translating, I asked if there was an "English teacher" in town.

He got all excited, left, came back in twenty minutes and took me to a house that (I later learned) really wasn't for rent, but the owners agreed to rent it for 2000/month.

Done!

Next morning, a woman in uniform shows up at the door at 6 a.m. Decent English.

"You can start today. Fourteen hours a week, 22,000/month cash."

I said, "Huh?"

She said, "Aren't you the English teacher?"

I stayed a year.

[onlycw]

My school pretend the guy works only "part time". (For this, they wouldn't let him other "foreign teachers'" book). But truth be told, he worked full time as a teacher while making 5,000 Baht less.

• B-Visa and the getting the WP was easy.
• At Immigration, they were there for hours. But that hurdle was cleared as well. The guy had only a high school diploma.

[sirchai]

My school pretend the guy works only "part time". (For this, they wouldn't let him other "foreign teachers'" book). But truth be told, he worked full time as a teacher while making 5,000 Baht less.

• B-Visa and the getting the WP was easy.
• At Immigration, they were there for hours. But that hurdle was cleared as well. The guy had only a high school diploma.

Glad that he didn't smoke it. Meant the high school diploma..

The question was if it's possible to work with the right type of visa and a work permit. Just in my opinion, it might be easier when never taught in Thailand before to become an assistant. or Trainer. Only in the contract.Once accepted at a good school and you're in.

Once you've had both waivers and then applying for a job as a trainer, or assistant might raise many eyebrows.

I've met a few guys in Thailand and came to the conclusion that some guys only having a high school diploma did a better job than others having a BA in engineering, or a lifetime degree in shuttling the space.\-

It all depends on the labor department and of course the Immigration. Nothing is impossible.-

Edited March 4, 2014 by sirchai

[James999BKK]

An update for this thread:

The school, after plenty of dillying and dallying have finally decided that they can't afford to pay me after all. This seems strange to me as they currently pay the agency significantly more than they would have to pay me (I'd be happy with my current salary if they gave me a twelve month contract), and if I'm honest I think they've either hit a stumbling block or just decided it's too difficult and used the money as an excuse to back out without losing too much face.

I'm a little disappointed because I was looking forward to the better deal that the school would have been able to offer me, but I guess I may have dodged a bullet in as much as the school has no experience of how to handle foreign employees and I could see some problems arising down the line. Not least of these problems would be the fact the school director doesn't know her elbow from her... well, you know. Seriously, she's 50 and she sends me those stupid line picture emoticon things saying that she loves me and also does that 'index finger and thumb on the chin' pose that most of my kids do in photo's. Professional conduct I think not. Anyway, that's for another discussion...

[sirchai]

An update for this thread:

The school, after plenty of dillying and dallying have finally decided that they can't afford to pay me after all. This seems strange to me as they currently pay the agency significantly more than they would have to pay me (I'd be happy with my current salary if they gave me a twelve month contract), and if I'm honest I think they've either hit a stumbling block or just decided it's too difficult and used the money as an excuse to back out without losing too much face.

I'm a little disappointed because I was looking forward to the better deal that the school would have been able to offer me, but I guess I may have dodged a bullet in as much as the school has no experience of how to handle foreign employees and I could see some problems arising down the line. Not least of these problems would be the fact the school director doesn't know her elbow from her... well, you know. Seriously, she's 50 and she sends me those stupid line picture emoticon things saying that she loves me and also does that 'index finger and thumb on the chin' pose that most of my kids do in photo's. Professional conduct I think not. Anyway, that's for another discussion...

Seems to be pretty obvious, why they'd made such a decision. It's not about not knowing how to hire a foreigner, what documents are needed, etc.

I've got all documents in office word format, in Thai and in English, on my computer, as I had to give these files to another teacher.

All to make a visa run, contracts, etc.....I could theoretically make a new business and sell them. ( Sorry, was just kidding)

As you're ( or had) working for an agency, they were not really aware that a BA in any field is required by TCT and labor. Then the problem with the agency, as just thinking about an upcoming problem in form of a fine.

Seems that they'll continue with the agency and the director with her "childish behavior", ( sorry but I don't see something wrong with it, as I'm also sometimes acting like that, when making jokes. Does age prevent you of acting funny?)

She'll have a free paid holiday somewhere in Europe, or the States. Then some pocket money for Khun Somchai in the financial office, plus other "presents' that keep their "relationship" up.

Why don't you look for a school that would hire you being not a teacher, but a XXX? Good luck.-

[James999BKK]

Seems to be pretty obvious, why they'd made such a decision. It's not about not knowing how to hire a foreigner, what documents are needed, etc.

I've got all documents in office word format, in Thai and in English, on my computer, as I had to give these files to another teacher.

All to make a visa run, contracts, etc.....I could theoretically make a new business and sell them. ( Sorry, was just kidding)

As you're ( or had) working for an agency, they were not really aware that a BA in any field is required by TCT and labor. Then the problem with the agency, as just thinking about an upcoming problem in form of a fine.

Seems that they'll continue with the agency and the director with her "childish behavior", ( sorry but I don't see something wrong with it, as I'm also sometimes acting like that, when making jokes. Does age prevent you of acting funny?)

She'll have a free paid holiday somewhere in Europe, or the States. Then some pocket money for Khun Somchai in the financial office, plus other "presents' that keep their "relationship" up.

Why don't you look for a school that would hire you being not a teacher, but a XXX? Good luck.-

Just out of interest, what do you think it's about then if not the 'not knowing how' thing?

And on the director, I can't really explain it properly but if you spent any length of time having to deal with her you'd understand why I think she is an incompetent buffoon. The examples I gave may seem trivial but they are just a couple of things about her that get on my tits when I'm trying to do my job. No professionalism.

I did try persuading them to hire me as a 'language development assistant' or some such similar bull---- title but they didn't really seem to warm to the idea. I like the school and the students are great, I don't want to step into the unknown again and end up with a slightly better contract but a much worse job. I'll probably stick it out with the agency for another year and push for a bit more cash from them.

Thanks for the good luck message.

[sirchai]

Seems to be pretty obvious, why they'd made such a decision. It's not about not knowing how to hire a foreigner, what documents are needed, etc.

I've got all documents in office word format, in Thai and in English, on my computer, as I had to give these files to another teacher.

All to make a visa run, contracts, etc.....I could theoretically make a new business and sell them. ( Sorry, was just kidding)

As you're ( or had) working for an agency, they were not really aware that a BA in any field is required by TCT and labor. Then the problem with the agency, as just thinking about an upcoming problem in form of a fine.

Seems that they'll continue with the agency and the director with her "childish behavior", ( sorry but I don't see something wrong with it, as I'm also sometimes acting like that, when making jokes. Does age prevent you of acting funny?)

She'll have a free paid holiday somewhere in Europe, or the States. Then some pocket money for Khun Somchai in the financial office, plus other "presents' that keep their "relationship" up.

Why don't you look for a school that would hire you being not a teacher, but a XXX? Good luck.-

Just out of interest, what do you think it's about then if not the 'not knowing how' thing?

And on the director, I can't really explain it properly but if you spent any length of time having to deal with her you'd understand why I think she is an incompetent buffoon. The examples I gave may seem trivial but they are just a couple of things about her that get on my tits when I'm trying to do my job. No professionalism.

I did try persuading them to hire me as a 'language development assistant' or some such similar bull---- title but they didn't really seem to warm to the idea. I like the school and the students are great, I don't want to step into the unknown again and end up with a slightly better contract but a much worse job. I'll probably stick it out with the agency for another year and push for a bit more cash from them.

Thanks for the good luck message.

Sorry, but I haven't met too many "intelligent directors" yet. Such a position is usually bought. At bigger schools in cities around 3 million ++

Wouldn't you think that such a director wouldn't know anybody who knows it?

[UP2013]

This seems strange to me as they currently pay the agency significantly more than they would have to pay me (I'd be happy with my current salary if they gave me a twelve month contract), and if I'm honest I think they've either hit a stumbling block or just decided it's too difficult and used the money as an excuse to back out without losing too much face.

[ghost writer]

Why teach? You can make more money just working for yourself without the headache - a lot of foreigners have businesses outside of Thailand which they operate remotely (no work permit required contrary what anyone else says), and at the end of the day if you keep it to yourself no one would ever know. You can download a free ebook at http://howtomakemoneyinthailand.com which will give you a few pointers - a little careful thinking and some hard work and you can make some decent cash without having to work in a Thai school