A new day in Ukraine: Political uncertainty sweeps divided nation

[chuckd]

What's Obama going to do next? Stamp his foot and get REALLY mad?

He continues to be out-maneuvered, out-foxxed and completely lost against Putin. His foreign policy is non-existant and in tatters and he has no clue what to do next.

I hope I am wrong but I see no way the US can have any influence on world affairs for the next three years.

[impulse]

Let's see, Germany surrendered in 1918 with virtually none of the war touching the homeland.. They rearmed, got their finances in order and came back 21 years later to fight another day.

Russia "lost" the cold war in 1991, with virtually none of the war touching the homeland. It's now 23 years later. I guess it just took them a little longer...

Guess it was a little premature to declare the Cold War done and dusted.

[Jingthing]

What's Obama going to do next? Stamp his foot and get REALLY mad?

He continues to be out-maneuvered, out-foxxed and completely lost against Putin. His foreign policy is non-existant and in tatters and he has no clue what to do next.

I hope I am wrong but I see no way the US can have any influence on world affairs for the next three years.

I think you might be surprised by what he ends up doing.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[chuckd]

What's Obama going to do next? Stamp his foot and get REALLY mad?

He continues to be out-maneuvered, out-foxxed and completely lost against Putin. His foreign policy is non-existant and in tatters and he has no clue what to do next.

I hope I am wrong but I see no way the US can have any influence on world affairs for the next three years.

I think you might be surprised by what he ends up doing.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It would seem what he has done so far has not exactly struck fear in the hearts of all Russians. I'm certain they await his next action with a degree of doom.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russian Deputy PM Laughs at Obama’s Sanctions

By Kirit Radia

Mar 17, 2014 3:09pm

MOSCOW – Russia’s deputy prime minister laughed off President Obama’s sanction against him today asking “Comrade @BarackObama” if “some prankster” came up with the list.

The Obama administration hit 11 Russian and Ukrainian officials with sanctions today as punishment for Russia’s support of Crimea’s referendum. Among them: aides to President Vladimir Putin, a top government official, senior lawmakers, Crimean officials, the ousted president of Ukraine, and a Ukrainian politician and businessman allegedly tied to violence against protesters in Kiev.

<snip>

U.S. official have warned of additional sanctions for Russian action, hoping it will deter Russia from any further aggression towards Ukraine, but it didn’t appear to upset the often outspoke Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/03/russian-deputy-pm-laughs-at-obamas-sanctions/

[englishoak]

It isnt going to work whatever Obama or EU talking heads threaten. They are totally out in the cold here

Heres the thing about the Crimea issue, it was done transparently, it was given the free choice, it was monitored by whatever nation wished to take an interest, it was found to be fair, it was seen to be fair and open, it was in no way rigged or manipulated as a result... the world can see democracy at work and the will of the people... heres the real kicker... it was done totally peacefully and without bloodshed.

Everyone can see and does see who are acting the children here, alternative media is far and away more read than the state CNN or BBC or other EU crap state media. Facebook and social media is buzzing with the revelation and Irony That Russia is showing democratic countries how to run a democratic process and openly.

People are also becoming aware of the dealings the US and EU have with neo nazis that are unelected and running the Ukraine and recognised by the UN as ok yet Crimea having a democratic choice is not ??? this is pure comedy and Irony the world sees it for what it is

Now this dosnt mean Putin is some kind of saint becuase he isnt but....... it does show the true colours of the US gov and the lengths and people it will deal with to further its agenda... Syria and supporting terrorists was seen for what it was and rejected by the world and so will the attempt in the Ukraine to destabilise the area and dealing with right wing neo nazis.

Make no mistake certain nations are getting desperate, they are out of money out of credit and out of many options, they NEED another war.

Problem is the world isnt really biting any longer and are their own people... People in Europe will not back anti Russian sentiment while the Bear has its claws sheathed,is being open and talking sense.Alternatively the US and the EU are increasingly showing how dishonest, how opaque and how undemocratic they really wish to be.

People are wide awake on this one and the best thing US and the EU could do would be to say yknow what... what is done is done we recognise the people of Crimea have spoken even if the manner was against UN rules.... in other words swallow the pill of humility and gain back some respect... somehow though I think those in Ivory towers are so far out of touch they will continue to make the same mistakes and all the while the people are watching, taking note and waking up...

No one likes a bully and people in general have had enough being told BS when they know the truth and can see it for themselves

[Jingthing]

Putin is a liar. Here the details are explained. I understand Russians buying this garbage, they are nationalistic and their press is controlled by a dictator, but I do not understand westerners buying into his LIES:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/politics/truth-teller-three-falsehoods-in-putins-crimea-speech/2014/03/19/73f8e450-af0b-11e3-b8b3-44b1d1cd4c1f_video.html

Also Putin said a few weeks ago he isn't interested in Crimea. You saw what he did.

Now he says he isn't interested in splitting the rest of Ukraine.

Can you trust him?

Edited March 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[Asiantravel]

Ukraine trying to fend off military conflict with Russia and now trying to fend off litigation with China

China sues Ukraine for breach of US$3b loan-for-grain agreement

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1435976/china-sues-ukraine-breach-us3b-loan-grain-agreement

[Credo]

Perhaps they could quickly sell them Crimea. A lot of people seem to think it still belongs to them.

[Jingthing]

Perhaps they could quickly sell them Crimea. A lot of people seem to think it still belongs to them.

Good idea. China would have a shot to claim the property that Ukraine doesn't.

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply deleted.

[Asiantravel]

perhaps some will now understand exactly what Putin was facing

Time to grab guns and kill damn Russians – Tymoshenko in leaked tape

Tymoshenko confirmed the authenticity of the conversation on Twitter, while claiming that a section where she is heard to call for the nuclear slaughter of the eight million Russians who remain on Ukrainian territory was edited.

She tweeted “The conversation took place, but the '8 million Russians in Ukraine' piece is an edit. In fact, I said Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians. Hello FSB Sorry for the obscene language.”

The former Ukrainian PM has not clarified who exactly she wants to nuke.

http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/

[Asiantravel]

I can never see the Ukraine situation ending peacefully if this woman becomes president after comparing Putin to Adolf Hitler earlier this week

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26768012

Edited March 27, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Jingthing]

I can never see the Ukraine situation ending peacefully if this woman becomes president after comparing Putin to Adolf Hitler earlier this week

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26768012

She may not be the best choice, that's for sure, but you can't blame Ukrainians for being angry at Putin for invading their territory and stealing Crimea from them.

[StasD]

I hope Obama will punish Russia for Crimea and stop exporting Coca-Cola to Russia

[Jingthing]

I hope Obama will punish Russia for Crimea and stop exporting Coca-Cola to Russia

No, bad idea.

Send more free.

Russian's aren't obese enough.

"No amount of propaganda can make right what the world knows is wrong."

President of the U.S.A. -- Barack Hussein Obama

[Jingthing]

Putin living in a fantasy world.

I agree with Zakaria,

Obama has this right.

Doesn't mean Putin will listen or it's going to be easy or quick to deal with him.

...

This is not an academic debate. The best way to deal with Russia’s aggression in Crimea is not to present it as routine and national interest-based foreign policy that will be countered by Washington in a contest between two great powers. It is to point out, as Obama did eloquently this week in Brussels, that Russia is grossly endangering a global order that has benefited the entire world.

...

There is an evolving international order with new global norms making war and conquest increasingly rare. We should strengthen, not ridicule, it. Yes, some places stand in opposition to this trend — North Korea, Syria, Russia. The people running these countries believe that they are charting a path to greatness and glory. But they are the ones living in a fantasy world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-obama-pursues-the-right-response-to-russias-19th-century-behavior/2014/03/27/a7b8dc2a-b5df-11e3-b899-20667de76985_story.html

[folium]

Putin living in a fantasy world.

I agree with Zakaria,

Obama has this right.

Doesn't mean Putin will listen or it's going to be easy or quick to deal with him.

...

This is not an academic debate. The best way to deal with Russia’s aggression in Crimea is not to present it as routine and national interest-based foreign policy that will be countered by Washington in a contest between two great powers. It is to point out, as Obama did eloquently this week in Brussels, that Russia is grossly endangering a global order that has benefited the entire world.

...

There is an evolving international order with new global norms making war and conquest increasingly rare. We should strengthen, not ridicule, it. Yes, some places stand in opposition to this trend — North Korea, Syria, Russia. The people running these countries believe that they are charting a path to greatness and glory. But they are the ones living in a fantasy world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-obama-pursues-the-right-response-to-russias-19th-century-behavior/2014/03/27/a7b8dc2a-b5df-11e3-b899-20667de76985_story.html

Have a read of these:

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21599346-post-soviet-world-order-was-far-perfect-vladimir-putins-idea-replacing-it

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21599829-new-propaganda-war-underpins-kremlins-clash-west-1984-2014

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21599828-baltics-look-nato-protection-echoes-sudetenland

PS do you ever respond to PMs?

[Scott]

Putin calls Obama to discuss U.S. proposal on Ukraine-White House

By Steve Holland

Related Stories

RIYADH (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin called U.S. President Barack Obama on Friday to discuss a U.S. diplomatic proposal for Ukraine, the White House said, adding that Obama told him that Russia must pull back its troops and not move deeper into Ukraine.

It was believed to have been the first direct conversation between Obama and Putin since the United States and its European allies began imposing sanctions on Putin's inner circle and threatened to penalize key sectors of Russia's economy.

Russia's reinforcement of troops near Ukraine has brought the total forces there to as many as 40,000, U.S. officials estimated on Friday in a build-up that has increasingly worried Washington in recent days.

http://news.yahoo.com/russias-putin-calls-obama-discuss-u-proposal-ukraine-212358384.html

[Pakboong]

A bit of a surprise.

" The US president must envy his Russian rival for the respect he receives in Israel as opposed to the daily dose of scorn and alienation served to our "ally" time and again. As the public has no knowledge about the reason for the echoing silence in Israel over Russian's policy in the region as opposed to the frequent criticism directed at the US, we should only hope that the people up there know some things that we don't. I have my doubts."

Efraim Halevy is a former head of Mossad

Edited March 29, 2014 by Pakboong

[manarak]

pff...

western nations like to beat on about borders, national territory, etc.

this is disregarding the fact that people living in crimea and eastern ukraine are of russian nationality but carry a ukrainian passport inherited from the soviet union.

there is a cultural divide in ukraine, western ukraine feels more european in a cultural sense and eastern ukraine feels russian.

there is little doubt that the populations of crimea and eastern ukraine will vote in favour of joining russia, and i wonder what the EU and US think is wrong with that, except losing a bit of the ukrainian cake. anyone who knows ukraine knows that the votes don't need to be rigged to have that outcome.

the reason why there is a conflict is because of big business with propaganda using the western latent hate of putin and russia.

i see no grounds for western intervention in ukraine. democracy? really? what is democratic in forcing provinces to stay with ukraine when the vast majority of their people are russian and want to belong to russia?

give crimea, donetsk and kharkov to russia and be done with it.

why make a problem of it?

[Pakboong]

pff...

western nations like to beat on about borders, national territory, etc.

this is disregarding the fact that people living in crimea and eastern ukraine are of russian nationality but carry a ukrainian passport inherited from the soviet union.

there is a cultural divide in ukraine, western ukraine feels more european in a cultural sense and eastern ukraine feels russian.

there is little doubt that the populations of crimea and eastern ukraine will vote in favour of joining russia, and i wonder what the EU and US think is wrong with that, except losing a bit of the ukrainian cake. anyone who knows ukraine knows that the votes don't need to be rigged to have that outcome.

the reason why there is a conflict is because of big business with propaganda using the western latent hate of putin and russia.

i see no grounds for western intervention in ukraine. democracy? really? what is democratic in forcing provinces to stay with ukraine when the vast majority of their people are russian and want to belong to russia?

give crimea, donetsk and kharkov to russia and be done with it.

why make a problem of it?

I just don't think it will matter. The wealthiest people on our planet want Putin punished for trying to strip away half of their wealth by creating a first ever competition with the International Monetary Fund. If Putin is allowed to continue on, BRICS will compete with fiat currencies currently overseen by the IMF which is a private bank with Shareholders who control trillions. Putin is up against something huge and he knows it. By the same token, the IMF and its controllers are very much aware what Putin is trying to do and will use whatever money they need to to stop him. The potential here is for Putin to create the most powerful and wealthiest nation ever should he be allowed to put the money he gains into the public well being, defense and infrastructure. Public well being is a bit of a stretch but this is not the first time it has been tried.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Pakboong

[ABCer]

Ukraine...

- A divided Nation? - Yes... And much more than is implied or mentioned in this thread... What about territories claimed by Romania, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Poland?

- Uncertainty in its future? - Yes, thanks to many factors.

- EU membership? - Forget it! Neither EU nor Russia will ever allow this to happen, no matter what they say.

- NATO membership? - Forget it! Only over a Big War with Russia, assuming anybody can defeat it.

- Crimea? - Forget it Now! It could have been saved from invasion by Gifting Sevastopol away (just like Crimea was gifted to Ukraine some 50 years ago). But Ukraine was too stupid for this. Now it's too late.

- Russian Ethnic groups? - As a Fifth Column - a very serious factor. As a Pretext to take over - a very serious factor. As cultural 'brothers' of Russia - nobody cares.

- USA air carriers in Black Sea? - Forget it! Go back to 1988 and look up the Ramming incident of an American war ship by Russians. It was good enough they didn't sink it. It was a test of wills that Americans have lost.

Should it happen today the ship would have been sunk. Russians also have memories. The "Kursk" is not forgotten!..

- Russian Aggression in Crimea? - Legitimate! Not that I support or approve the act. But after Kosovo EU, NATO and USA have no leg to stand on. And Russians are not stupid not to know this.

- Revival of Neo-Nazism in Ukraine? - It was never dead! And siding with it for reasons of expediency was yet another big mistake by USA officials. Just handing some extra trump cards to Russia.

I now leave this post in the hands of our Mods. If they do not like it they can always delete it for too much of bold print or statements.

I have noted but didn't answer some posts based on slogans only. Like how much we all are ungrateful to USA for bringing peace, justice, happiness and prosperity to many countries of the World. Give me facts first.

[ABCer]

Putin calls Obama to discuss U.S. proposal on Ukraine-White House

By Steve Holland

Related Stories

RIYADH (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin called U.S. President Barack Obama on Friday to discuss a U.S. diplomatic proposal for Ukraine, the White House said, adding that Obama told him that Russia must pull back its troops and not move deeper into Ukraine.

It was believed to have been the first direct conversation between Obama and Putin since the United States and its European allies began imposing sanctions on Putin's inner circle and threatened to penalize key sectors of Russia's economy.

Russia's reinforcement of troops near Ukraine has brought the total forces there to as many as 40,000, U.S. officials estimated on Friday in a build-up that has increasingly worried Washington in recent days.

http://news.yahoo.com/russias-putin-calls-obama-discuss-u-proposal-ukraine-212358384.html

Russia does not have to 'invade'. With the huge 'Fifth column' of Russians inside Ukraine there is no need for invasion.

An adequate number of unofficial military 'advisers' and a nominal supply of arms+ ammo and tomorrow half of Ukraine is taken.

Unlike Obama Putin is smart, cool, calculating and a stickler for 'legitimacy'. Why invade if most Russian speaking people are for joining anyway.

Also don't forget that many Ukrainians are sick and tired of thieving Gov't, instability, wrecked economy etc.

The only opposition will come from Nationalists and Neo-Nazis. They will be hanged high to the cheers of the stupid crowd.

Question: What USA, NATO or EU can do about this? Sanctions? Shoot themselves in a foot?

I am afraid the dear USA had played a very bad game this time. Time to wipe the snorts and go back to drawing board.

Sorry, did you see me liking Putin here?

[ABCer]

A bit of a surprise.

" The US president must envy his Russian rival for the respect he receives in Israel as opposed to the daily dose of scorn and alienation served to our "ally" time and again. As the public has no knowledge about the reason for the echoing silence in Israel over Russian's policy in the region as opposed to the frequent criticism directed at the US, we should only hope that the people up there know some things that we don't. I have my doubts."

Efraim Halevy is a former head of Mossad

There could be an explanation. But it is hard to formulate in politically correct terms. Turn your eyes back to history, mate. You may also Google "pogroms".

Or try to find statistics on Jews emigration from Russia against same from Ukraine.

I may be wrong... but check out this fellow Efraim Halevy. I wonder where from his family came to Israel - Russia or Ukraine? Just an idea...

Edited May 2, 2014 by ABCer

[healthbkkbkk]

CNN? I could say so much but instead I'll just say that CNN is as reliable as Pravda was during the Soviet Union.

America downed the legitimate government of Ukraine and replaced it with her own proxy.

Russia has too many interests in Crimea to allow this to happen.

It's that simple.

[Morch]

A bit of a surprise.

" The US president must envy his Russian rival for the respect he receives in Israel as opposed to the daily dose of scorn and alienation served to our "ally" time and again. As the public has no knowledge about the reason for the echoing silence in Israel over Russian's policy in the region as opposed to the frequent criticism directed at the US, we should only hope that the people up there know some things that we don't. I have my doubts."

Efraim Halevy is a former head of Mossad

There could be an explanation. But it is hard to formulate in politically correct terms. Turn your eyes back to history, mate. You may also Google "pogroms".

Or try to find statistics on Jews emigration from Russia against same from Ukraine.

I may be wrong... but check out this fellow Efraim Halevy. I wonder where from his family came to Israel - Russia or Ukraine? Just an idea...

Efraim Halevy was born in England.

I doubt that his ancestry got anything to do with his assessment or public opinions.

[ABCer]

A bit of a surprise.

" The US president must envy his Russian rival for the respect he receives in Israel as opposed to the daily dose of scorn and alienation served to our "ally" time and again. As the public has no knowledge about the reason for the echoing silence in Israel over Russian's policy in the region as opposed to the frequent criticism directed at the US, we should only hope that the people up there know some things that we don't. I have my doubts."

Efraim Halevy is a former head of Mossad

There could be an explanation. But it is hard to formulate in politically correct terms. Turn your eyes back to history, mate. You may also Google "pogroms".

Or try to find statistics on Jews emigration from Russia against same from Ukraine.

I may be wrong... but check out this fellow Efraim Halevy. I wonder where from his family came to Israel - Russia or Ukraine? Just an idea...

Efraim Halevy was born in England.

I doubt that his ancestry got anything to do with his assessment or public opinions.

Morch, either I missed you or you missed my point.

I have no doubts about clarity of the thinking and honesty of assessments of this guy.

What I was trying to say is this.

If his family history involved stories of 'pogroms' in Poland, Ukraine or Russia passed on through generations so would be true for many Jews in Israel now.

Russia can be seen the last on this list for a reason.

I have also directed your curiosity to statistics of emigration from these countries.

After all I only made a suggestion that the explanation could be found there.

And finally, I reserved the right/possibility to be wrong.

You, on the other hand, assumed a formal attitude trying to accuse me in doubting integrity of the guy's assessment. IMHO this is a border line provocation.

[Credo]

Putin calls Obama to discuss U.S. proposal on Ukraine-White House

By Steve Holland

Related Stories

RIYADH (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin called U.S. President Barack Obama on Friday to discuss a U.S. diplomatic proposal for Ukraine, the White House said, adding that Obama told him that Russia must pull back its troops and not move deeper into Ukraine.

It was believed to have been the first direct conversation between Obama and Putin since the United States and its European allies began imposing sanctions on Putin's inner circle and threatened to penalize key sectors of Russia's economy.

Russia's reinforcement of troops near Ukraine has brought the total forces there to as many as 40,000, U.S. officials estimated on Friday in a build-up that has increasingly worried Washington in recent days.

http://news.yahoo.com/russias-putin-calls-obama-discuss-u-proposal-ukraine-212358384.html

Russia does not have to 'invade'. With the huge 'Fifth column' of Russians inside Ukraine there is no need for invasion.

An adequate number of unofficial military 'advisers' and a nominal supply of arms+ ammo and tomorrow half of Ukraine is taken.

Unlike Obama Putin is smart, cool, calculating and a stickler for 'legitimacy'. Why invade if most Russian speaking people are for joining anyway.

Also don't forget that many Ukrainians are sick and tired of thieving Gov't, instability, wrecked economy etc.

The only opposition will come from Nationalists and Neo-Nazis. They will be hanged high to the cheers of the stupid crowd.

Question: What USA, NATO or EU can do about this? Sanctions? Shoot themselves in a foot?

I am afraid the dear USA had played a very bad game this time. Time to wipe the snorts and go back to drawing board.

Sorry, did you see me liking Putin here?

I once visited a county in Minnesota that was mostly made up of people whose ethnic background was Norwegian. In the local restaurant the old guys were even speaking Norwegian. Would it be legal for them to have a vote to join Norway?

[ABCer]

Putin calls Obama to discuss U.S. proposal on Ukraine-White House

By Steve Holland

Related Stories

RIYADH (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin called U.S. President Barack Obama on Friday to discuss a U.S. diplomatic proposal for Ukraine, the White House said, adding that Obama told him that Russia must pull back its troops and not move deeper into Ukraine.

It was believed to have been the first direct conversation between Obama and Putin since the United States and its European allies began imposing sanctions on Putin's inner circle and threatened to penalize key sectors of Russia's economy.

Russia's reinforcement of troops near Ukraine has brought the total forces there to as many as 40,000, U.S. officials estimated on Friday in a build-up that has increasingly worried Washington in recent days.

http://news.yahoo.com/russias-putin-calls-obama-discuss-u-proposal-ukraine-212358384.html

Russia does not have to 'invade'. With the huge 'Fifth column' of Russians inside Ukraine there is no need for invasion.

An adequate number of unofficial military 'advisers' and a nominal supply of arms+ ammo and tomorrow half of Ukraine is taken.

Unlike Obama Putin is smart, cool, calculating and a stickler for 'legitimacy'. Why invade if most Russian speaking people are for joining anyway.

Also don't forget that many Ukrainians are sick and tired of thieving Gov't, instability, wrecked economy etc.

The only opposition will come from Nationalists and Neo-Nazis. They will be hanged high to the cheers of the stupid crowd.

Question: What USA, NATO or EU can do about this? Sanctions? Shoot themselves in a foot?

I am afraid the dear USA had played a very bad game this time. Time to wipe the snorts and go back to drawing board.

Sorry, did you see me liking Putin here?

I once visited a county in Minnesota that was mostly made up of people whose ethnic background was Norwegian. In the local restaurant the old guys were even speaking Norwegian. Would it be legal for them to have a vote to join Norway?

A good question, Credo.

I do not have an answer to this one.

But given that: they would get organised, armed, could prove that their rights were unfairly jeopardised, represented huge proportion of overall population and that their incorporation into USA was of dubious nature, had history of violent clashes with Minnesota people on ethnic and religious grounds - POSSIBLE! Hey, mate! You have a Kosovo in the making right in the centre of Minnesota!

On the other hand Minnesota State

-aren't stupid enough to persecute Norwegians for...

-Norwegians in Minnesota are free and happy to be...

-there is no Norway on Minnesota borders...

-there is no vital military base of Norway in Minnesota...

-the State of Minnesota didn't apply for membership of Warsaw Pact...

... do you want me to continue?

Edited May 3, 2014 by ABCer

[Credo]

Actually, I believe there are more people of Norwegian in Minnesota than in Norway. Perhaps Minnesota might want to invade Norway, but that's a topic for a different thread.

The point is that the Ukraine was a sovereign nation and one part doesn't usually get to leave, at least not easily. In this case Russia was a little more than just helpful. I don't think that the world cares too much about what happens to Crimea or the Ukraine, for that matter. I think the concern is for Putin and whatever his agenda might be.

I look forward to the people of Tibet having a vote, especially those that speak a Tibetic language.