A new day in Ukraine: Political uncertainty sweeps divided nation

[Scott]

A new day in Ukraine: Political uncertainty sweeps divided nation

By Phil Black. Steve Almasy and Victoria Butenko, CNN

updated 1:48 PM EST, Sun February 23, 2014

Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- The mood around Independence Square in Ukraine's capital was very somber Sunday as thousands gathered, mourning the dozens of people killed in demonstrations during the past week and wondering who will take charge of the politically divided nation.

They wondered where President Viktor Yanukovych, who reportedly tried to leave the country Saturday night, had gone.

No one in the government appeared to know.

There was a great uncertainty in the country after the rapidly moving events of the past 24 hours,......

CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/23/world/europe/ukraine-protests/index.html?hpt=wo_c2

[3NUMBAS]

they all want to get on the EU gravy train with fat benefits and jobs in Germany and the UK thats what its all about .

if Turkey join the EU as well that could create problems too

[folium]

they all want to get on the EU gravy train with fat benefits and jobs in Germany and the UK thats what its all about .

if Turkey join the EU as well that could create problems too

If you lived in the Ukraine you would be looking for a lot more than benefits in an enlarged EU.

This conflict is far more about the unfinished business from 1989 (fall of Berlin Wall), 1991 (collapse of Soviet Union), and 2004 (Orange Revolution, first stab at a democratic country).

Also it is a clear signal that many Ukrainians are not prepared to accept a rebuilding of the Soviet Union under the delightful Putin.

Quite how things pan out is still unclear and there is the possibility for all sorts of dramas. A break up of Ukraine ( the Russian majority Crimea is a vital Black Sea port for Putin), a Russian intervention a la Hungary 1956 to reinstall Yanukovich, or just possibly a move away from an authoritarian kleptocracy and a brighter future for most Ukrainians under the wing of the EU.

Events are moving fast and as the "Arab Spring" has demonstrated, chucking out a dictator can be the easy part in the transformation of a country's governance.

Slightly takes the shine off Putin's coming out party in Sochi, and could be a key moment for all parties concerned.

[Chicog]

Let's hope for their (and everyones) sake that Putin accepts it gracefully and offers them carrots instead of sticks.

[folium]

Let's hope for their (and everyones) sake that Putin accepts it gracefully and offers them carrots instead of sticks.

Unfortunately if you look at his track record, the words "accept gracefully"and "Putin" are seldom found together. The loss of Ukraine will be a crushing blow to Putin's campaign of re-establishing the Russian Empire and one that he is unlikely to accept without at least some form of pushback.

Quite how aggressive this pushback will be is the key question. Aggravated/abetted secession, civil conflict or outright military intervention are all possible outcomes. Hopefully the West makes clear that none of these are acceptable options. We could be in for an interesting few days/weeks.

[paz]

they all want to get on the EU gravy train with fat benefits and jobs in Germany and the UK thats what its all about .

if Turkey join the EU as well that could create problems too

Booo! That was about freedom and justice, beside that, who joins the Eu gets no free lunch. UK and Germany need no advocates to defend their jobs and economis.

[Scott]

I was listening to the news on the radio this morning on the way to work. It seems that Mr. Putin is quite upset.

[folium]

I was listening to the news on the radio this morning on the way to work. It seems that Mr. Putin is quite upset.

And a pissed off Putin is not someone to be trifled with. Ask the Chechens about that.

Ukraine could easily fragment given the legacy of bolt on territorial acquisitions that makes up today's Ukraine, which provide the classic potential for separatism. See maps below:

The BBC highlights the spectre of separatism, and the Russians have plenty of recent form in this respect with Trans-Dneister, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia all separatist enclaves effectively under Russian military control. In Ukraine the most likely place for Putin-inspired separatism would be the Crimea, given the Russian ethnic majority and the Russian Black Sea Fleet (with some 20,000 troops).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26333587

The other option for Russian meddling would be the supply of energy given Ukraine's dependence on Russian gas imports. Any choking off of supply could also impact neighbouring countries to the West. While Nord Stream under the Baltic could take some of the strain, energy supplies are likely to be a vital weapon for Moscow in its bid to prevent Ukraine slipping from its grasp.

[Chicog]

It seems the Russians are not making even veiled military threats. Perhaps it's because they know they can basically bring Ukraine to a halt by cutting oil & gas supplies at the press of a button.

Added: Although from this it wouldn't really have much effect if they did it right now:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-24/ukraine-unrest-probably-won-t-boost-gas-price-commerzbank-says.html

Edited February 25, 2014 by Chicog

[geriatrickid]

I think that any fiscally responsible Russian or westerner would run away from the Ukraine problem. It is a vast cesspool of corruption and a place where billions of ruble/euros/$$ in aid money has been lost. As the Polish FM has warned, the Ukraine is not trustworthy when it comes to promises about fiscal responsibility or in repaying loans. If sanity prevails, the EU does not allow the Ukraine to join and Putin stops trying to rebuild the Soviet Empire. The Ukraine needs a decade to learn to stand on its own legs and to deal with some core issues such as law and order, and fiscal responsibility. Leave the Ukraine with the Russians and let the Russians sink billions of their own money into what is for all intents and purposes a long term basket case.

[RickBradford]

To understand why many Ukrainian people want to get closer to the West, google the word 'Holodomor'.

It refers to a politically engineered famine in the Ukraine between 1932-3 which killed perhaps 7.5 million people and was created by central Soviet agricultural planning. It is officially regarded as a deliberate act of genocide, by countries including the US, Canada and Australia.

The suggestion that Ukrainians want to be close to the EU simply in order to obtain "fat benefits and jobs" is thoroughly ignorant and offensive.

Edited February 25, 2014 by RickBradford

[Steely Dan]

I think that any fiscally responsible Russian or westerner would run away from the Ukraine problem. It is a vast cesspool of corruption and a place where billions of ruble/euros/$$ in aid money has been lost. As the Polish FM has warned, the Ukraine is not trustworthy when it comes to promises about fiscal responsibility or in repaying loans. If sanity prevails, the EU does not allow the Ukraine to join and Putin stops trying to rebuild the Soviet Empire. The Ukraine needs a decade to learn to stand on its own legs and to deal with some core issues such as law and order, and fiscal responsibility. Leave the Ukraine with the Russians and let the Russians sink billions of their own money into what is for all intents and purposes a long term basket case.

'Cesspool of corruption', sounds like a match made in heaven for the E.U. As an aside when I worked in Brussels back in the early 90's it was reported that a million pounds worth of office stationary disappeared each year from the E.U headquarters building the Berlaymont.

[folium]

I think that any fiscally responsible Russian or westerner would run away from the Ukraine problem. It is a vast cesspool of corruption and a place where billions of ruble/euros/$$ in aid money has been lost. As the Polish FM has warned, the Ukraine is not trustworthy when it comes to promises about fiscal responsibility or in repaying loans. If sanity prevails, the EU does not allow the Ukraine to join and Putin stops trying to rebuild the Soviet Empire. The Ukraine needs a decade to learn to stand on its own legs and to deal with some core issues such as law and order, and fiscal responsibility. Leave the Ukraine with the Russians and let the Russians sink billions of their own money into what is for all intents and purposes a long term basket case.

Sadly fiscal responsibility and Putin are not known to each other. See the dollarfest of the Sochi olympic venues for more details.

Sanity is also a bystander in all this. The agenda for Putin is all about re-establishing Russia as a world power and to recover from the "shame" experienced in 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The concern is that an incident in Donetsk or Sevastopol (majority ethnic Russian areas) with pro-Russian elements being perceived to being harrassed or assaulted, thus allowing Russian troops to intervene in terms of "self-defence of their Russian brethren". Putin's gamble will be whether or not the West would do anything about it. Going on the shambles re Syria, the answer is probably precious little apart from huff and puff.Similar operations in South Ossetia and Abkhazia see the Soviets/Russians still in charge of these chunks of Georgia 2 decades later in the case of Abkhazia and 6 years later with South Ossetia. It would be interesting to know how many ethnically Russian citizens of Ukraine also hold Russian passports.

Finally perhaps the people of Ukraine themselves should be allowed to decide whether their country lines up with Putin or the West. Ukraine's history has been a litany of foreign conquest, occupation and bloodbath. Stalin murdered some 4 million plus Ukrainians in the 1920's and Ukrainian partisans fought both Nazis and Soviets during WW2. For many Ukrainians they want nothing to do with Putin's new Soviet Empire.

[Scott]

Thanks for the updates. I've been very busy and I haven't had much time to keep up with the Ukrainian situation. Your analysis and insights are appreciated.

[Pakboong]

Among the many adjendas, there is a rebirth of the neo-nazi element ever present in the Ukraine. There is hope among them that Putin will split the world into the IMF and BRICS. Although a fringe group that has been largely dormant, they are inspired by acts of perceived fascism by Putin's new Russia. They are currently tearing down all evidence of the Soviet history in the Ukraine. They have been toppling statues and other symbols.

[folium]

It seems the Russians are not making even veiled military threats.

Unfortunately this is not the case in the Crimea

From the link below:

Moscow earlier revealed that it would be ready to go for war over the Crimea region in order to protect the large population and army installations.

"If Ukraine breaks apart, it will trigger a war. They will lose Crimea first [because] we will go in and protect [it], just as we did in Georgia," an unidentified Russian official told the Financial Times.

Analysts have already pointed to the possibility of a repetition of the 2008 Georgia conflict when Russian troops and tanks invaded after the Georgian government launched an attack on the separatist region of South Ossetia.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-deploys-ships-troops-ukraines-crimea-raising-tensions-1437762

The Russians already have naval and air assets located in and around Sevastopol in the Crimea, plus a brigade of naval marines. 2 BTR80 APCs were deployed into central Sevastopol on Monday and the photo of them sitting in the main square (albeit fairly briefly) sends a clear message to Kiev.

The Crimea was "gifted" to Ukraine from Russia in 1954 by Krushchev. The population is majority Russian ethnically and the importance of the naval base for the Black Sea Fleet was underlined in 2009-10 when the Russians flexed their gas supply weapon to gain an extension on the lease for the bases until 2042.

The situation in the Crimea is very fragile and the possibility of escalation is very real.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/25/ukraine-sevastopol-installs-pro-russian-mayor

[folium]

And while many Ukrainians have little love for Russia due to genocidal efforts such as the 1930's Holodomor, the original inhabitants of the Crimea, the Tatars, have suffered similar genocidal assaults by the Russians in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, culminating in the 1944 mass deportation of all Tatars from the region with death rates of around 45%. Neither Ukrainians nor Crimean Tatars have, quite understandably, any desire to be forced back into a union with the Russians.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26353824

An excellent short overview of the dangers surrounding the Crimea are in the link below, with footage of the Russian BTR80s in central Sevastopol.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26346090

One thing the link omits is that not only did Sevastopol hold out against the Nazis for 250 days in 1941-42, but also held out against the French/British forces for 11 months in 1854-55 during the Crimean War.

[folium]

Among the many adjendas, there is a rebirth of the neo-nazi element ever present in the Ukraine. There is hope among them that Putin will split the world into the IMF and BRICS. Although a fringe group that has been largely dormant, they are inspired by acts of perceived fascism by Putin's new Russia. They are currently tearing down all evidence of the Soviet history in the Ukraine. They have been toppling statues and other symbols.

The Russian media (controlled by Putin),and ethnic Russians within Ukraine are making much of the "fascist" threat (see link below from the eastern city of Donetsk, a Yanukovich and Russian stronghold).

The language and terminology being used is frighteningly similar to that used to justify the Soviet intervention into Hungary in 1956. Then the screw up in Suez ensured Western paralysis, today the bitter legacy of Iraq/Afghan, already being played out in the inept response to the Syrian situation, could underwrite the temptation for Russia to act decisively in terms of Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26343804

Edited February 26, 2014 by folium

[Steely Dan]

Among the many adjendas, there is a rebirth of the neo-nazi element ever present in the Ukraine. There is hope among them that Putin will split the world into the IMF and BRICS. Although a fringe group that has been largely dormant, they are inspired by acts of perceived fascism by Putin's new Russia. They are currently tearing down all evidence of the Soviet history in the Ukraine. They have been toppling statues and other symbols.

I'll take it as read then that they won't be wanting a Stalin world theme park, which they bizarrely do have in Lithuania.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RJMod6iKoI

Edited February 26, 2014 by Steely Dan

[folium]

Among the many adjendas, there is a rebirth of the neo-nazi element ever present in the Ukraine. There is hope among them that Putin will split the world into the IMF and BRICS. Although a fringe group that has been largely dormant, they are inspired by acts of perceived fascism by Putin's new Russia. They are currently tearing down all evidence of the Soviet history in the Ukraine. They have been toppling statues and other symbols.

I'll take it as read then that they won't be wanting a Stalin world theme park, which they bizarrely do have in Lithuania.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RJMod6iKoI

If there is an entrepreneurial streak in Ukraine there might well be another Stalin World...

round up discarded statues and assemble various art works and hey presto you have a tourist attraction for both locals and foreigners.

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g277798-d552802-Reviews-Stalin_World_Grutas_Park-Druskininkai_Alytus_County.html

Seems like Lithuania is good at the tourist attraction game and play hard with their troubled past.

http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2011/may/01/lithuania-soviet-nostalgia-theme-parks

[Pakboong]

Among the many adjendas, there is a rebirth of the neo-nazi element ever present in the Ukraine. There is hope among them that Putin will split the world into the IMF and BRICS. Although a fringe group that has been largely dormant, they are inspired by acts of perceived fascism by Putin's new Russia. They are currently tearing down all evidence of the Soviet history in the Ukraine. They have been toppling statues and other symbols.

I'll take it as read then that they won't be wanting a Stalin world theme park, which they bizarrely do have in Lithuania.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RJMod6iKoI

Thus far, they have been downing primarily Lenin statues. The last count I read was 20 Lenin statues and a couple of statues representing the victorious Soviets over the Nazis. These are the Ukrainian version of "Baby Boomers". Off-spring of the 760,000 Ukrainian Army which defected in mass from the Soviet Union and joined the Nazis in 1941. These characters became the guards to the many concentration camps and marched 37,000 enemies of the 3rd Reich to the ravine at Babi Yar where they wee executed in mass. History books, like the story of the Katyn Forest massacre of the Polish, put this on the Nazis but all the Nazis really had to do was stand by and watch. These crazies have a serious axe to grind and are keeping the pot stirred.

[folium]

Among the many adjendas, there is a rebirth of the neo-nazi element ever present in the Ukraine. There is hope among them that Putin will split the world into the IMF and BRICS. Although a fringe group that has been largely dormant, they are inspired by acts of perceived fascism by Putin's new Russia. They are currently tearing down all evidence of the Soviet history in the Ukraine. They have been toppling statues and other symbols.

I'll take it as read then that they won't be wanting a Stalin world theme park, which they bizarrely do have in Lithuania.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RJMod6iKoI

Thus far, they have been downing primarily Lenin statues. The last count I read was 20 Lenin statues and a couple of statues representing the victorious Soviets over the Nazis. These are the Ukrainian version of "Baby Boomers". Off-spring of the 760,000 Ukrainian Army which defected in mass from the Soviet Union and joined the Nazis in 1941. These characters became the guards to the many concentration camps and marched 37,000 enemies of the 3rd Reich to the ravine at Babi Yar where they wee executed in mass. History books, like the story of the Katyn Forest massacre of the Polish, put this on the Nazis but all the Nazis really had to do was stand by and watch. These crazies have a serious axe to grind and are keeping the pot stirred.

care to back up your claims with some evidence?

The massacres at Babi Yar were carried out by German Einsatzgruppe C troops. Undoubtedly there were Ukrainians involved in the atrocities, but collaboration was a sad reality in almost all occupied nations to some degree. French enthusiasm for rounding up Jews, Dutch volunteers for the Waffen SS, Croatian Ustashe shocking even the Nazis by their horrendous treatment of Serbs etc

How many Ukrainians served in the Red Army or the Partisans?

Who are the "crazies with a serious axe to grind" that you refer to?

Katyn Forest was the murder of Polish officers by the Red Army as part of the German-Russian division of Poland. Are you claiming that the Nazis were not involved in massacres or the establishment of death camps? Was it all down to local collaborators? Did they come up with the concept and murder 12 million people while the Nazis "stood by and watched"?

[Pakboong]

All facts are supplied by the victors. You are aware of the famine of 32-33 and the response by the Ukrainians. I am not suggesting the Nazis had nothing to do with it. I am however pointing out how willing the Ukrainian Army was to defect and become the bulk of the concentration camp guards for the remainder of the war. Their motivation for that willingness is to what I refer in my previous post. The official history books claim they were defeated by the Nazis rather quickly and became POWs. I dispute that history and am suggesting that they defected for the reasons previously stated. The axe to grind is the same axe they had to grind in 1941. This particular element have their own reasons for involvement in the current crisis. You are suggesting the Einsatsgrupen defeated a 760,000 Ukrainian Army, that is not likely. The Einsatsgrupen to which you refer did not have that kind of manpower. They didn't even have the man power to round up and kill that many Ukrainians in that infamous ravine in 1941.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Pakboong

[simple1]

All facts are supplied by the victors. You are aware of the famine of 32-33 and the response by the Ukrainians. I am not suggesting the Nazis had nothing to do with it. I am however pointing out how willing the Ukrainian Army was to defect and become the bulk of the concentration camp guards for the remainder of the war. Their motivation for that willingness is to what I refer in my previous post. The official history books claim they were defeated by the Nazis rather quickly and became POWs. I dispute that history and am suggesting that they defected for the reasons previously stated. The axe to grind is the same axe they had to grind in 1941. This particular element have their own reasons for involvement in the current crisis. You are suggesting the Einsatsgrupen defeated a 760,000 Ukrainian Army, that is not likely. The Einsatsgrupen to which you refer did not have that kind of manpower. They didn't even have the man power to round up and kill that many Ukrainians in that infamous ravine in 1941.

I believe you are twisting Folium's post. Anyone with even a small understanding knows that the Einsatsgrupen death squads followed behind the Geman conventional and SS divisons for the extermination of the Jews, amongst other roles in killing of civilians. Einsatsgrupen death squads often mainly comprised of German nationals, but also supervised groups of Nazi sympathisers as in Ukaine, Lithuanian, Rumania & elsewhere.

Having previously read a few history books, the Babi Yar massacre was mostly carried out by German forces and Police units, with some assistance from the local police.

Edited February 27, 2014 by simple1

[Pakboong]

All facts are supplied by the victors. You are aware of the famine of 32-33 and the response by the Ukrainians. I am not suggesting the Nazis had nothing to do with it. I am however pointing out how willing the Ukrainian Army was to defect and become the bulk of the concentration camp guards for the remainder of the war. Their motivation for that willingness is to what I refer in my previous post. The official history books claim they were defeated by the Nazis rather quickly and became POWs. I dispute that history and am suggesting that they defected for the reasons previously stated. The axe to grind is the same axe they had to grind in 1941. This particular element have their own reasons for involvement in the current crisis. You are suggesting the Einsatsgrupen defeated a 760,000 Ukrainian Army, that is not likely. The Einsatsgrupen to which you refer did not have that kind of manpower. They didn't even have the man power to round up and kill that many Ukrainians in that infamous ravine in 1941.

I believe you are twisting Folium's post. Anyone with even a small understanding knows that the Einsatsgrupen death squads followed behind the Geman conventional and SS divisons for the extermination of the Jews, amongst other roles in killing of civilians. Einsatsgrupen death squads often mainly comprised of German nationals, but also supervised groups of Nazi sympathisers as in Ukaine, Lithuanian, Rumania & elsewhere.

Having previously read a few history books, the Babi Yar massacre was mostly carried out by German forces and Police units, with some assistance from the local police.

Not trying to twist anything. The Ukrainians remember the dead of the Holodomor in just as serious a light(or dark) as the Jews remember the Nazi holocaust. Historians claim 7-9 million dead in the Holodomor and most Ukrainians feel are not remembered at all by the rest of the world. And, they are pissed about it. It is a significant motivator in all aspects of their lives, both political and otherwise. Lazar Kaganovich is to the Ukranians as Adolf Eichmann was to the Jews. The mechanics of Babi Yar are not relevant, they simply stand as a reminder as to the ever present neo-Nazism in the Ukraine.

[folium]

All facts are supplied by the victors. You are aware of the famine of 32-33 and the response by the Ukrainians. I am not suggesting the Nazis had nothing to do with it. I am however pointing out how willing the Ukrainian Army was to defect and become the bulk of the concentration camp guards for the remainder of the war. Their motivation for that willingness is to what I refer in my previous post. The official history books claim they were defeated by the Nazis rather quickly and became POWs. I dispute that history and am suggesting that they defected for the reasons previously stated. The axe to grind is the same axe they had to grind in 1941. This particular element have their own reasons for involvement in the current crisis. You are suggesting the Einsatsgrupen defeated a 760,000 Ukrainian Army, that is not likely. The Einsatsgrupen to which you refer did not have that kind of manpower. They didn't even have the man power to round up and kill that many Ukrainians in that infamous ravine in 1941.

You have a tendency, it appears, to talk in riddles.

As pointed out by Simple1 the Einsatzgruppen were extermination units who travelled behind the frontline troops murdering civilans, they certainly never took on large bodies of hostile troops.

Somewhat baffled by your accounts of Op Barbarossa and its impact in Ukraine. There was no "Ukrainian Army" in 1941, but the Germans certainly took hundeds of thousands of Red Army prisoners, many of whom were subsequently starved/worked to death or given the option to cooperate/collaborate.

Due to its tragic history of invasion, occupation and massacres by everyone from Poles, Lithuanians, Russians, Germans, Austrians and Mongol Hordes, nationalism is keenly felt and intense hostility is felt towareds Russia due to the Holodomor. There are and have been unpleasant right-wing groups such as the OUN-B, UPA etc, but they hardly represent the majority of Ukrainan opinion. Streetfighting, thuggish extreme nationalists are a feature of almost all European nations from the UK to Russia.

The Russian media is making much of the neo-Nazi/fascist label to tar all the anti-Yanukovich, anti-Russian protestors. A convenient rallying cry that still shifts opinion in a region shaped and mared by the anti-fascist struggle of WW2. In reality Russia's agenda is very transparent and is desperate not to let Ukraine slip from its grasp.

Collaboration, anti-semitism, and unpleasant ideologies were found throughout Nazi occupied nations during WW2. Ukraine was no different and provided both monsters and saints who did the right thing. 55,000 Dutch volunteered to serve in the Waffen SS, does that mean that Geert Wilders leads some reborn neo-Nazi party? French officials and police enthusiastically exceeded their required quotas in rounding up French Jews and dispatching them by train to the death camps. Does that mean that France is a neo-Nazi state in waiting?

Is your point that the sitation in Ukraine today is in effect an attempted takeover of the country by extreme nationalist/Neo-Nazis bent on eradicating political and ethnic rivals?

Edited February 27, 2014 by folium

[folium]

Meanwhile back in Feb 2014 Ukraine.....

Armed men have occupied the regional parliamentary building for the Crimea region and hoisted the Russian flag. On Wednesday a short notice military exercise was initaited by Russian troops close to Ukraine's western border and ex-President Yanukovich is being harboured by Russia .

The similarities with Hungary 1956 become alarmingly frequent and any over-reaction by Ukrainian forces (real or staged) could provide the perfect excuse for a Russian operation to "secure the safety of their citizens" and restore the "rightful" political leader. And of course to "defeat the "forces of Naziism"....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26366700

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10664711/Ukraine-crisis-Viktor-Yanukovych-surfaces-to-say-he-is-still-leader.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-kerry-warns-putin-this-is-not-rocky-iv-as-russian-fighter-jets-put-on-combat-alert-9156583.html

[geriatrickid]

As much as I love the concepts of freedom and democracy and know what a brute Putin is, I fear the extreme right wing Ukrainians more. They have a brutal track record that should send shivers down anyone's back. The Ukrainians have to deal with this issue themselves. While I am not a supporter of Putin, I can understand his concern about having a hostile country on its border. I doubt the EU is ready to put its cheap energy supply at risk and assume a multi billion euro financial burden.

[F430murci]

As much as I love the concepts of freedom and democracy and know what a brute Putin is, I fear the extreme right wing Ukrainians more. They have a brutal track record that should send shivers down anyone's back. The Ukrainians have to deal with this issue themselves. While I am not a supporter of Putin, I can understand his concern about having a hostile country on its border. I doubt the EU is ready to put its cheap energy supply at risk and assume a multi billion euro financial burden.

Reality here. One cannot understand the dynamics in Eastern Europe or the people there from reading a few books or newspaper articles. My wife is Russian and many of our closest friends are Ukranians. Had dinner part with 3 Ukranian couples last week and to hear their take and what I read on here seems world's apart. Candidly, I don't think anyone but someone from that area really gets it. We are just programmed differently and you cannot employ Western logic to try and make sense of it.

[Asiantravel]

Russian armored vehicles spoted in Crimea

Edited February 27, 2014 by Asiantravel