Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[F4UCorsair]

Anyone know where the debris is ? I will send my own search team soon .

After a couple of months in rough seas and a few cyclones, I'd take a stab at Davy Jones Locker.

One might anticipate some of the more buoyant debris to be washed up on a beach possibly?

Exactly. If it's in the sea, there will be debris wash up, and I'm surprised it hasn't already.

I recall when I lived in Darwin many years ago, and ran on the beach out East Point way most lunch breaks, and I saw what looked like part of an aircraft.

Closer examination revealed it was a F86 Sabre wing, but nobody on the RAAF radar station there at that time could remember one going missing. Research revealed it had crashed 15+ years before off the coast during a dogfight in a combined services exercise. Very little wreckage was found at the time, but more than 15 years later, a wing washed up. A few large components were recovered.

Incidentally, the cause of the crash was pulling 'rolling G's', tight turn and pulling up simultaneously. The wing couldn't handle the G's it and folded. It happened with such force that there were traces of the painted decals from the top of the right wing transferred to the top of the left wing!

If there is a place in the Indian Ocean, as has been suggested, that 'corrals' floating debris, the authorities surely must know of it, and be searching there also. A similar area in the Atlantic is known as the Sargasso Sea, and either forms part of the Bermuda Triangle, or is very close.

Edited May 1, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[P45Mustang]

Yes. Some very fair points.

[F4UCorsair]

My memory isn't as good as I thought.....but that was about 1976!

It wasn't rolling G's that did it in, but Pilot Induced Oscillations. I just found this report online

94-360 CA27-100 Mk.32 Delivered to 1 AD 01/09/60. To 75 Sqn 22/09/60 . To 81 Wing 23/02/61. Crashed 01/11/61, into Darwin Harbour after a catastrophic wing failure of the left wing as a result of pilot induced oscillation. Crew; PLTOFF R. Irvine. Aircraft and engine recovered and sent to CAC Fishermans Bend, via Laverton on Hercules A97-211 on 16/11/61. To 1 AD 13/12/61. Aircraft badly damaged and recoverable componants were badly corroded by sea water. Aircraft and installed engine CAC210 written off as scrap metal 16/08/62.Barry Wilson comments: "The Sabre was a great aircraft but A94-360 that crashed into Darwin harbour highlighted its really bad vice - the PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation). This resulted from a lack of airspeed compensation in its power controls and a mismatch in its dynamic stability and control input phasing that caused the pilot to aggravate rather that smooth out divergences. This PIO was also known as the JC manoeuvre as reputedly the first pilot to encounter it could say nothing but "Jesus Christ!" for several hours after. This inexperienced pilot put the aircraft into a high speed dive (~550-KIAS) to get at a 5,000-ft and literally tore off both wings in a few positive/negative g cycles. The wings actually clapped together over the cockpit as evidenced by the mirror imprint of paint from the roundel on one wing onto the other wing. The JC was often caused by operation of the speed brakes which caused a marked nose-up pitch and you really had to be careful with this above 500-KIAS (max IAS was 600-K)."

Edited May 1, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[F4UCorsair]

This is a direct 'lift' from the pages of prune

Just joined to say Georesonance has a CEO who lives in Sevastapol.

The techniques they use have not been able to find a ship sunk in the Black sea in WW2.So what chance MH370.

https://www.metabunk.org/threads/dub...nd-mh370.3558/

Edited May 1, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[P45Mustang]

My memory isn't as good as I thought.....but that was about 1976!

It wasn't rolling G's that did it in, but Pilot Induced Oscillations. I just found this report online

94-360 CA27-100 Mk.32 Delivered to 1 AD 01/09/60. To 75 Sqn 22/09/60 . To 81 Wing 23/02/61. Crashed 01/11/61, into Darwin Harbour after a catastrophic wing failure of the left wing as a result of pilot induced oscillation. Crew; PLTOFF R. Irvine. Aircraft and engine recovered and sent to CAC Fishermans Bend, via Laverton on Hercules A97-211 on 16/11/61. To 1 AD 13/12/61. Aircraft badly damaged and recoverable componants were badly corroded by sea water. Aircraft and installed engine CAC210 written off as scrap metal 16/08/62.Barry Wilson comments: "The Sabre was a great aircraft but A94-360 that crashed into Darwin harbour highlighted its really bad vice - the PIO (Pilot Induced Oscillation). This resulted from a lack of airspeed compensation in its power controls and a mismatch in its dynamic stability and control input phasing that caused the pilot to aggravate rather that smooth out divergences. This PIO was also known as the JC manoeuvre as reputedly the first pilot to encounter it could say nothing but "Jesus Christ!" for several hours after. This inexperienced pilot put the aircraft into a high speed dive (~550-KIAS) to get at a 5,000-ft and literally tore off both wings in a few positive/negative g cycles. The wings actually clapped together over the cockpit as evidenced by the mirror imprint of paint from the roundel on one wing onto the other wing. The JC was often caused by operation of the speed brakes which caused a marked nose-up pitch and you really had to be careful with this above 500-KIAS (max IAS was 600-K)."

Fascinating stuff. F4UCorsair.

No such problems with a P51Mustang.

[F4UCorsair]

INterestingly, the claim by GeoResonance may be the remains of an aircraft, but I don't think for a second that it's MH370.

However it could the that of Charles Kingsford Smith who was lost in that area in 1935, although not exactly where GR claim to have found 'wreckage'. His aircraft the Lady Southern Cross was never found, but I think an undercarriage leg may have been picked up some time later.

The quantities of metal that GR claim to have located would be very small compared with a 777 though.

Edit: Just googled CKS, and the wreckage of the Lady Southern Cross was found, close to the Burma, now Myanmar, coast, so probably not what the GR team claim to have found, and though if they can't find a sunken WW2 ship, I guess they have little hope of locating an aircraft?

Edited May 1, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[P45Mustang]

Yes. I digress.

Back to topic.

Interesting how the disappearance of a passenger aircraft becomes the subject of hotly debated political/social issues.

Which takes us right back to the starting point. Unlikely that it was mechanical failure. More likely, somebody was up to something.

[Chicog]

Incidentally, that the official search organization hasn't bothered to contact a GeoResonance representative indicates what they think of the claim.

Which tells you what they think of it. Are they supposed to respond to every piece of free publicity?

[retell]

I do think that geo resonance has a point worth invetigating , and would not be suprised if it is mh370 they have found , the fact they cannot find a ship that sank 70 years ago is irrelevant

[P45Mustang]

@ chicog

Problem is though, sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Or for the non-native English speakers, the crap from the crystal.

Basically comes down to somebody making a prejudged decision.

Or to put it more explicitly. 'we are looking in the South Indian Ocean, so we don't need evidence from anywhere else'.

Edited May 1, 2014 by P45Mustang

[khaosai]

It think it's possible it was ditched with only one crew member being alive, but I still have difficulty with him flying it for 6+ hours before then committing suicide. It's possible he also died in a depressurization, but then the chances of the auto pilot flying it on after fuel exhaustion, without any breakup, and therefore significant debris, is about zero.

Hi,

Your correct, zero chance of that happening.

If both engines fail on the B777 then the autopilot will automatically disconnect until such time that you get a generator working when you can then re engage the autopilot. That's not going to happen with fuel exhaustion of course.

[P45Mustang]

It think it's possible it was ditched with only one crew member being alive, but I still have difficulty with him flying it for 6+ hours before then committing suicide. It's possible he also died in a depressurization, but then the chances of the auto pilot flying it on after fuel exhaustion, without any breakup, and therefore significant debris, is about zero.

Why do you have difficulty with this please?

[F4UCorsair]

It think it's possible it was ditched with only one crew member being alive, but I still have difficulty with him flying it for 6+ hours before then committing suicide. It's possible he also died in a depressurization, but then the chances of the auto pilot flying it on after fuel exhaustion, without any breakup, and therefore significant debris, is about zero.

Hi,

Your correct, zero chance of that happening.

If both engines fail on the B777 then the autopilot will automatically disconnect until such time that you get a generator working when you can then re engage the autopilot. That's not going to happen with fuel exhaustion of course.

[F4UCorsair]

It think it's possible it was ditched with only one crew member being alive, but I still have difficulty with him flying it for 6+ hours before then committing suicide. It's possible he also died in a depressurization, but then the chances of the auto pilot flying it on after fuel exhaustion, without any breakup, and therefore significant debris, is about zero.

Hi,

Your correct, zero chance of that happening.

If both engines fail on the B777 then the autopilot will automatically disconnect until such time that you get a generator working when you can then re engage the autopilot. That's not going to happen with fuel exhaustion of course.

[Chicog]

@ chicog

Problem is though, sorting the wheat from the chaff.

Or for the non-native English speakers, the crap from the crystal.

Basically comes down to somebody making a prejudged decision.

Or to put it more explicitly. 'we are looking in the South Indian Ocean, so we don't need evidence from anywhere else'.

It's not really a problem for them. They are convinced they received transmissions from a HoneyWell commercial aircraft flight recorder.

No-one else appears to be missing one in that area.

[P45Mustang]

Not sure how convinced they are chicog.

Seem to remember somebody from the search team saying recently that it might be in any one of 20 different countries and on land but were finding it hard to believe that was the case.

All depends on confidence in the integrity of the pings I suppose.

Extensive sonar search in ping area shows no debris.

So, plan B is extend search area to a wider radius based ENTIRELY on the concept of acoustic transference of the pings.

How wide do you go before you lose complete confidence?

[P45Mustang]

Missing plane: Wives of cabin crew want answers

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-27239262

BBC 2hrs ago.

[khwaibah]

MH370 report reveals 4-hour gap before official search for plane began

By Holly Yan, CNN

May 1, 2014 -- Updated 1315 GMT (2115 HKT)

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/01/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[tigermonkey]

Not sure how convinced they are chicog.

Seem to remember somebody from the search team saying recently that it might be in any one of 20 different countries and on land but were finding it hard to believe that was the case.

All depends on confidence in the integrity of the pings I suppose.

Extensive sonar search in ping area shows no debris.

So, plan B is extend search area to a wider radius based ENTIRELY on the concept of acoustic transference of the pings.

How wide do you go before you lose complete confidence?

I just can't wait for the new procession of experts to crawl out of the woodwork. These, of course, will be experts concerning the behaviour of sound waves at or below 4500 meters and at 2 degrees C, especially ducting or other forms of acoustic transference. Of course the media will never accept that almost no scientific knowledge exists in this area - they will make up new 'facts' as they go.

[P45Mustang]

Not sure how convinced they are chicog.

Seem to remember somebody from the search team saying recently that it might be in any one of 20 different countries and on land but were finding it hard to believe that was the case.

All depends on confidence in the integrity of the pings I suppose.

Extensive sonar search in ping area shows no debris.

So, plan B is extend search area to a wider radius based ENTIRELY on the concept of acoustic transference of the pings.

How wide do you go before you lose complete confidence?

I just can't wait for the new procession of experts to crawl out of the woodwork. These, of course, will be experts concerning the behaviour of sound waves at or below 4500 meters and at 2 degrees C, especially ducting or other forms of acoustic transference. Of course the media will never accept that almost no scientific knowledge exists in this area - they will make up new 'facts' as they go.

You know what I would do?

I would drop a HoneyWell FDR in the search area.

Give it 24 hrs to drop to the ocean floor and then start listening.

Only way to test this acoustic transference theory WHICH IS THE ENTIRE BASIS FOR WIDENING THE RADIUS OF SEARCH is to do an on site re-creation experiment.

[P45Mustang]

MH370 report reveals 4-hour gap before official search for plane began

By Holly Yan, CNN

May 1, 2014 -- Updated 1315 GMT (2115 HKT)

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/01/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Very Interesting.

Official Malaysian initial report.

Worth a close read I am sure.

[Tywais]

The more dense the medium, the fast sounds waves propagate. In the ocean, sound travels at roughly 1500 m/s, over 4 times the speed of sound in air (340 m/s). Variations in the seawater temperature and pressure (depth) also cause small variations in the speed of sound, and can result in complex and refracted propagation paths over long distances. Just as we can hear low and high sounds, sound in the ocean is made up of both low and high frequency waves. Low frequency sound physically has longer wave lengths, requires more energy to generate, and will consequently travel greater distances with little degradation. High frequency sound (i.e. >100 kHz) on the other hand has smaller wave lengths and will not propagate as far, but will allow the detection (reflect off) of smaller features. Low frequency sound is used to communicate over long distances, while high frequency sound is used to probe the local environment.

When sound encounters an obstacle, or travels through the stratified ocean, several things can happen. Upon reaching a suspended solid (plankton, fish, debris), some of the sound is scattered, either in the forward or oblique directions (diffraction) or back towards the source (backscatter). When sound encounters a fixed surface (i.e. the ocean surface or bottom), most of the sound energy is reflected. The ocean is not homogeneous, in that the sea water temperature (T), salinity (S), and density (ρ) vary in space. Consequently, the speed of sound ©, varies spatially as a complex function of T, S and pressure (P).

Ocean Acoustics - Yes I know the article is about Venus but the theory is sound (sorry for the pun).

[P45Mustang]

As I say, they need to do an ONSITE experiment because of all the variables that Tywais mentions above.

[P45Mustang]

There have been reservations about Bluefin because of depth capability? But they continue to rely on this ONE PIECE of kit?

I cannot understand why the search team and the equipment from the successful AirFrance recovery in the Atlantic are not being deployed.

Am I missing something?

[hawker9000]

As I say, they need to do an ONSITE experiment because of all the variables that Tywais mentions above.

Don't these variables & characteristics (pressure, temperature, salinity, location & depth of thermal layers & acoustic channels, etc.) change over time?

[tigermonkey]

The cargo manifest is now in the public domain.

View it at :http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/MH370CargoManifestandAirwayBill.pdf

Interesting that the 200 to 300 kilos of lithium ion batteries, quoted by MAS, turns out to be 2453 kilograms

[tigermonkey]

Not sure how convinced they are chicog.

Seem to remember somebody from the search team saying recently that it might be in any one of 20 different countries and on land but were finding it hard to believe that was the case.

All depends on confidence in the integrity of the pings I suppose.

Extensive sonar search in ping area shows no debris.

So, plan B is extend search area to a wider radius based ENTIRELY on the concept of acoustic transference of the pings.

How wide do you go before you lose complete confidence?

I just can't wait for the new procession of experts to crawl out of the woodwork. These, of course, will be experts concerning the behaviour of sound waves at or below 4500 meters and at 2 degrees C, especially ducting or other forms of acoustic transference. Of course the media will never accept that almost no scientific knowledge exists in this area - they will make up new 'facts' as they go.

You know what I would do?

I would drop a HoneyWell FDR in the search area.

Give it 24 hrs to drop to the ocean floor and then start listening.

Only way to test this acoustic transference theory WHICH IS THE ENTIRE BASIS FOR WIDENING THE RADIUS OF SEARCH is to do an on site re-creation experiment.

What if they couldn't find it afterwards ? I'm serious. No one has ever heard the ping of a ULB from 4500 meters. There is always a slim chance that it will be almost impossible to locate.

Edited May 1, 2014 by tigermonkey

[P45Mustang]

Not sure how convinced they are chicog.

Seem to remember somebody from the search team saying recently that it might be in any one of 20 different countries and on land but were finding it hard to believe that was the case.

All depends on confidence in the integrity of the pings I suppose.

Extensive sonar search in ping area shows no debris.

So, plan B is extend search area to a wider radius based ENTIRELY on the concept of acoustic transference of the pings.

How wide do you go before you lose complete confidence?

I just can't wait for the new procession of experts to crawl out of the woodwork. These, of course, will be experts concerning the behaviour of sound waves at or below 4500 meters and at 2 degrees C, especially ducting or other forms of acoustic transference. Of course the media will never accept that almost no scientific knowledge exists in this area - they will make up new 'facts' as they go.

You know what I would do?

I would drop a HoneyWell FDR in the search area.

Give it 24 hrs to drop to the ocean floor and then start listening.

Only way to test this acoustic transference theory WHICH IS THE ENTIRE BASIS FOR WIDENING THE RADIUS OF SEARCH is to do an on site re-creation experiment.

What if they couldn't find it afterwards ?

Do you mean not find it or not hear it?

Prime reason for experiment would be to test the acoustic transference theory so an accurate radius of search could be determined.

[P45Mustang]

Supposed pings HAVE been heard in the locality.

[P45Mustang]

As I say, they need to do an ONSITE experiment because of all the variables that Tywais mentions above.

Don't these variables & characteristics (pressure, temperature, salinity, location & depth of thermal layers & acoustic channels, etc.) change over time?

Yes I am sure they do to an extent.