Land Crackdown Targets Thai Shareholders

[bkk_mike]

They can't make it illegal for a foreigner to own a property through a Thai company.

After all - that's how the Thai Elite card was giving "home ownership" to foreigners.

[basjke]

They can't make it illegal for a foreigner to own a property through a Thai company.

After all - that's how the Thai Elite card was giving "home ownership" to foreigners.

As I understood the holders of an Elite Card could buy a property which would be registered with a company owned by the thailand tourist authority.

[oopapasan]

The whole thing is TINK TONK! In this land of official xenephobia, investing, is like dropping a gold coin in the desert sands, the more you try to retreive it; the further it sinks!

Very well put,

I've always been inclined to rent instead of own, so it's a none issue to me, keeps my mobility unencumbered,

If you only rented all your life ,you lose the landlord wins.Only loser's never buy.Haven't you heard about inflation and property increasing.As far as Pattaya you can keep it all.

Edited June 1, 2006 by oopapasan

[number6]

It seems we have a lot of cynical, moaning, wingers who post on Thai visa who probably would and are not happy anywhere. I really can’t understand why they stay if its that bad – just go if you don’t like it – its not your country unless your Thai.

As far as buying property here is concerned – you all know or should its illegal for foreigners to own land – that’s the law and its up to Thais to make their own law weather we agree with it or not – personally I think it’s a silly law and does not help them get investment but its up to Thais - and those using tricks and schemes to try to get around the law get what they deserve.

I’e been coming to Thailand for 15+ years on business and lived here full time for over 4 years with my Thai wife and new family. Some years ago I bought a Condo for our main home in my name and a couple of years back we bought a house up North in my Thai wife’s name (for holidays). No problems everything legal and fair. If something happens to me, my wife has use of our Condo or income from it for her life then it goes to our child. If something happens to her I get the house which as a non Thai I must sell or if I can put in our child’s name. All arranged under proper Thai law and proper wills etc.

Sure if we fall out of love or whatever she has the house – she’s more than entitled to it and more for all wonderful times we’ve had together. I happily gave my first wife 50% of everything when through no fault of either of us we drifted apart. I’m happy to give my second wife at least as much.

My advice is:-

1. Do everything here 100% under law and 100% in spirit of Law – its clear foreigners are not allowed to own land.

2. So if you have a Thai wife but don’t trust her yet - don’t buy a house yet – buy a condo until you trust her or why marry her if u don’t trust her. Are all forangs unable to think with more than their junior members or are they just desperate.

3. Yes like everyone says be careful. Most Thais in my experience like most forangs are honest but too much money (like anywhere) temps even honest folk. Anyway if your not careful you’re going to get your fingers burnt (I’ve had mine burnt more often in UK and US, its just done a different way there) and anyone who trusts lawyers anywhere must need their head examining.

4. Stop getting paranoid, obey the law and you will be fine. If you try silly tricks then like anywhere you can get caught and pay the price.

5. Don’t trust anyone unless you’ve known him or her for a long time or they have a long good provable track record. This applies in any country.

6. Keep things in prospective. If u can afford it buy land/houses in your wife or Thai partners name or get another partner. Our 2 homes here cost a fraction of my previous home in UK.

7. It’s obviously not sensible to put all your life’s savings in a country you are not a citizen off . As a rough rule and dependent on how long you’ve been here and weather you intend to stay the rest of your life I’d say maximum 50% of your worth if you’ve been here over 5 years and intend staying for ever or 25% maximum if mot.

I’m glad I only discovered the Thai visa site long after I’d settled here – if you looked through a lot of post you’d be forgiven to believe that all Thais are crocks, all Thai girls only want forangs (forget age thing) for money and its impossible to have a fair chance here – utter rubbish – in my experience people are same world over – most like money, some will steal for it, some will try scams etc, most people are jealous to some extent of those who seem to have it all and so dislike them (same world over). Same applies here where most forangs have more than most Thais could ever dream of.

Some will say cynically that ill think different when I’ve been here another 5-10 years – maybe but I doubt it and if I do well that’s life – I’ve had a far better life and time here for 15 years than anywhere else I know.

So will wingers, mouners, doubters, sceptics etc play fair theirs tons I could say is wrong with UK or USA and theirs lots wrong here as well – enough said

[Martin]

In post #38, 'Supachok' said:

"Ultimately, whether this policy sticks or not, will likely hinge on the Thai public accepting or rejecting this policy."

I would bet on it continuing to be accepted.

For a long, long time now, the people of power and influence amongst the Tai peoples have made sure that it has become part of the Tai culture (in Thailand, and further afield) that land is NOT sold to foreigners.

(In fact, at one time no land ownership was allowed even to Tai people---if you ceased to cultivate your land, you no longer had any right to it.)

In recent times, it has been seen as no great deal if a few foreign individuals were let in, by turning a blind eye to the fact that they were being helped to circumvent the spirit of the law by being helped by the setting up of a pretty-bogus company.

But, as it has grown, we shouldn't be surprised to see steps taken to ensure that it doesn't get out of hand.

Where only the one house-plot for the house in which he resides is concerned, the individual foreigner probably need not feel concerned. Just lie low, and 'keep his nose clean'.

But any who think they can take the Thais to the cleaners would do themselves a favour by having second thoughts.

They are as bright as you are, and there's more of them than there are of you, and they are on their home turf.

[Godders]

The solution is easy,

Buy the LAND in your wife’s name. Usually circa B1.000,000

Put a 30 year lease on it, plus another 30 to follow.

Build the house, this you can own and demolish if you choose to.

Keep your money out of Thailand and out of reach of the Thai courts and you’re soon to be ex wife.

If you end up divorced. The Thai law says all assets should be split 50/50.

So half the value of the house and land each. (poss, 2.000,000 each)

So it costs you about 2.000.000 Baht for the pleasure of getting rid of her.

You can offer to buy her out for a lower amount or make her wait till the end of the lease.

Get divorced in any western country and it will cost you a lot more.

Our house in Thailand is in my wifes name, if anything went wrong i would not want it, its in the village amongst the Thai family. property is one of the powest priorites in a divorce for me.

Sorry Edd, but I have to tell you like a lot of other falangs married to Thais you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe a divorce will give you a fair shake. The reality is that you have NO claim to land and property registered in your Thai spouse's name. This is because, under regulations introduced a year or so ago, a Thai woman or man married to a falang is not permitted to purchase land and property without giving the Land Office where the property has to be registered a signed declaration from the falang husband or wife stating (a) the Thai spouse used their personal money for the purchase and ( the falang husband or wife waives all claims to the said land and property. Just as well, then, that property is one of your "lowest priorities" in a divorce, because, should your wife wish to sell the family home, you will not (unless she is unusually philanthropic) get one baht, let alone two million.

You also seem to be under a dangerous illusion about your wife's rights in respect of the true joint assets of the marriage (ie anything other than property acquired after you were wed). Under Thai law, she can lelgitimately claim 50 per cent of cash in the bank, savings, investment income, the family car and all other assets other than those which you can PROVE to be gifts or strictly personal possessions. With luck, might get to keep your shaving foam and razor - unless, of course, she is able to establish that she regularly used the latter to keep her legs stubble free.

Hate to add to your woes, but you are also wrong in thinking that any assets you may have salted away outside of Thailand are "beyond the reach" of a vengeful Thai divorcee. The court can instruct you to declare these assets and, should you demur, has the option of fining you and sending you to jail for contempt or ordering your deportation.

From what you have already read, it would come as no surprise if you were already on your way to a travel agent for a one-way ticket back to reality.

Bon voyage.

[Mobi]

I just transferred land from my company to my wife, I figure it's not worth the sleepless nights worrying about the knock on the door.

I registered a Sitthigapgintalordsheevit as the same time. For those unfamiliar with that, it's like a lifetime (some say 30 year) lease but does not require any tax be paid.

I certainly do trust my wife more that I trust my lawyer/the government and if things go tits up with the marriage, I have control of the land until I die.

Mods, the multiple treads on this subject are annoying, maybe fold them into one and close the others?

Hi Steve,

I assume that you transferred the land from your company to your wife as a person - i.e no company involved on your wife's side. Stupid question, but just want to be clear on this.

One of the earlier posts stated that the land office would not transfer land with 49% farang shareholder, either IN or OUT. In other words he said that you couldn't even transfer (or sell?) the land to a Thai if the company still had a farang on the books as the 49% shareholder.

Has your transfer been completed? Was there any problem with transferring the land out of your company in which you were a shareholder?

Thanks

Edited June 1, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[LivinLOS]

The whole thing is TINK TONK! In this land of official xenephobia, investing, is like dropping a gold coin in the desert sands, the more you try to retreive it; the further it sinks!

Very well put,

I've always been inclined to rent instead of own, so it's a none issue to me, keeps my mobility unencumbered,

If you only rented all your life ,you lose the landlord wins.Only loser's never buy.Haven't you heard about inflation and property increasing.As far as Pattaya you can keep it all.

You fail to factor in the return you could be getting on the money sunk into property..

I live in a pretty nice 5 bed seaview.. Based on the value of the villa and how much my rent is the owner is getting about a 3% return on his asset BEFORE maintenance (which given Thai building and breakage of electronic items like gates etc.. Is high)..

3% on my money ?? No Thanks !!! I can rent 10 villas based on my returns on invested money v his 1 on actually buying it !!

[Nawtilus]

They can't make it illegal for a foreigner to own a property through a Thai company.

After all - that's how the Thai Elite card was giving "home ownership" to foreigners.

How much can a koala bear !!!!

Yes, one of the sorriest scams thaksin could come up with, I wonder how many well to do people who got this card sat quietly in the toilet having a good bog and laughing at the 'buy a house and land now' drawcard

The 'ownership' of your brand new million dollar house was to go into a company pooled together and held on the behalf of all these well to do by the thai government to manage and care for with the utmost responsibility

Anyone notice how quiet the 'elite' card marketing band wagon has been lately another grand idea from the poobah of grand plans the mighty PM, I think Idi Amin did a better job at times. Most members of this club were either given the card, or they bought it because 1 mil baht is chump change and the golf club memberships you got with it were worth it.

[jackr]

It seems we have a lot of cynical, moaning, wingers who post on Thai visa who probably would and are not happy anywhere. I really can’t understand why they stay if its that bad – just go if you don’t like it – its not your country unless your Thai.

As far as buying property here is concerned – you all know or should its illegal for foreigners to own land – that’s the law and its up to Thais to make their own law weather we agree with it or not – personally I think it’s a silly law and does not help them get investment but its up to Thais - and those using tricks and schemes to try to get around the law get what they deserve.

I’e been coming to Thailand for 15+ years on business and lived here full time for over 4 years with my Thai wife and new family. Some years ago I bought a Condo for our main home in my name and a couple of years back we bought a house up North in my Thai wife’s name (for holidays). No problems everything legal and fair. If something happens to me, my wife has use of our Condo or income from it for her life then it goes to our child. If something happens to her I get the house which as a non Thai I must sell or if I can put in our child’s name. All arranged under proper Thai law and proper wills etc.

Sure if we fall out of love or whatever she has the house – she’s more than entitled to it and more for all wonderful times we’ve had together. I happily gave my first wife 50% of everything when through no fault of either of us we drifted apart. I’m happy to give my second wife at least as much.

My advice is:-

1. Do everything here 100% under law and 100% in spirit of Law – its clear foreigners are not allowed to own land.

2. So if you have a Thai wife but don’t trust her yet - don’t buy a house yet – buy a condo until you trust her or why marry her if u don’t trust her. Are all forangs unable to think with more than their junior members or are they just desperate.

3. Yes like everyone says be careful. Most Thais in my experience like most forangs are honest but too much money (like anywhere) temps even honest folk. Anyway if your not careful you’re going to get your fingers burnt (I’ve had mine burnt more often in UK and US, its just done a different way there) and anyone who trusts lawyers anywhere must need their head examining.

4. Stop getting paranoid, obey the law and you will be fine. If you try silly tricks then like anywhere you can get caught and pay the price.

5. Don’t trust anyone unless you’ve known him or her for a long time or they have a long good provable track record. This applies in any country.

6. Keep things in prospective. If u can afford it buy land/houses in your wife or Thai partners name or get another partner. Our 2 homes here cost a fraction of my previous home in UK.

7. It’s obviously not sensible to put all your life’s savings in a country you are not a citizen off . As a rough rule and dependent on how long you’ve been here and weather you intend to stay the rest of your life I’d say maximum 50% of your worth if you’ve been here over 5 years and intend staying for ever or 25% maximum if mot.

I’m glad I only discovered the Thai visa site long after I’d settled here – if you looked through a lot of post you’d be forgiven to believe that all Thais are crocks, all Thai girls only want forangs (forget age thing) for money and its impossible to have a fair chance here – utter rubbish – in my experience people are same world over – most like money, some will steal for it, some will try scams etc, most people are jealous to some extent of those who seem to have it all and so dislike them (same world over). Same applies here where most forangs have more than most Thais could ever dream of.

Some will say cynically that ill think different when I’ve been here another 5-10 years – maybe but I doubt it and if I do well that’s life – I’ve had a far better life and time here for 15 years than anywhere else I know.

So will wingers, mouners, doubters, sceptics etc play fair theirs tons I could say is wrong with UK or USA and theirs lots wrong here as well – enough said

Very eloquently put, but may I ask what a 'forang' is?

[archiedixon]

Well I think it is clear this new drive is to crack down on Farang developers who are taking over the markets in many tourist areas.

I agree that Thailand is not a place for investments, especially if you are retired. I personally stay only 90 days at a time in Thailand and live like a tourist.

I stay in a province in the south where you can stay in a 2 bedroom apartment in a 5 star hotel for 10,000 baht a month including breakfast, laundry and maid service free.

There is cable TV, a gym, sauna and a full sized pool. Why would you bother with all the crap of investing in a country so unfriendly for your dosh when you can live high on the hog anyway.

I have a large extended Thai family and could have bought rais of cheap land over the years. I say make and invest your money elsewhere, enjoy and spend it in Thailand.

Apartment sounds good to me, where abouts? We spent 6mths in Phuket last year, and looking to rent for another long stay. We had the same thoughts, europeans were ripping the bottom out of the housing market, getting rich quick at the expense of other! No sympathy for the farang buiulders only the buyers who were fed the wrong information over the risks of forming Companies!

[Arkady]

this is from another expat forum where this topic is under discussion.

Have just received this news from my lawyer. We were due to sign the contract on our off-plan property this week and pay the first 20%.

´According to the Ministry of the Interior and the Department of Land have set up the rules and regulations, which have been into force on the 29th May 2006 since then, pertaining to the acquisition of land for the company with foreign shareholder (s) for the authorities to comply with.

The Department of Land will not allow us to have a purchase of property by a company in case that the company has foreign shareholders or foreign directors. Therefore, we strongly recommend, in order to solve the problem, that we will not put your name as a shareholder or a director as long as your company setup until the company take a receipt of the transfer of the property.

We are seeking your consent that your company will be set up with all 100% of Thai shareholder and a Thai director. In this regard, please you rest your assure that all Thais will be our staff that we will make change in respect of shareholders and director to what your intention is within 7 days after the day that the company takes a receipt of transfer of the property (or soonest as possible).´

They have attached a translation from the Ministry of the Interior and the Department of Land. If anyone is interested in seeing this email me and I will forward.

I for one will be pulling out of the purchase, I don´t need another warning sign. I know they are lawyers but I don´t know them personally and who knows what will happen next?

if that sleazy solution is the best that the lawyers and agents can come up with to offer a purchaser then things must be pretty desperate.

and if that is typical of the kind of advice being dispensed by agents , then the sooner they are put out of business the better.

i still maintain , as i have done from the beginning , that most agents and those in bed with them are the lowest of the low . in their business practice and in their greed , they only sow the seeds of disharmony between thai and falang.

the selling of land is always an emotive business , and especially in a country so fiercely patriotic and nationalistic as thailand , foriegners should never have been allowed to get involved in this business in the first place. but they were easy meat for equally greedy thais with land to sell to partner.

the sooner there is a halt on developments targeted purely at falangs the better for thailand and the better for the falang community here.

Personally I would be very wary of following this advice. There are two obvious risks: 1) that the Thai shareholders retain control of the company and the property; 2) that the company gets investigated after the transfer and when you have become a shareholder and director. It would not require much imagination to follow up on all the newly formed companies that have recently bought land in farang targeted developments. Thais don't use companies for personal land purchases because it is tax inefficient and creates an admin and accounting burden. You are lucky you have not signed the contract and paid the down payment yet. I would put off a decision. Prices of farang developments are going to go down sharply. If you decide to go ahead, renegotiate the price down make them put a 30 year lease in place as part of the transaction.

[number6]

It seems we have a lot of cynical, moaning, wingers who post on Thai visa who probably would and are not happy anywhere. I really can’t understand why they stay if its that bad – just go if you don’t like it – its not your country unless your Thai.

As far as buying property here is concerned – you all know or should its illegal for foreigners to own land – that’s the law and its up to Thais to make their own law weather we agree with it or not – personally I think it’s a silly law and does not help them get investment but its up to Thais - and those using tricks and schemes to try to get around the law get what they deserve.

I’e been coming to Thailand for 15+ years on business and lived here full time for over 4 years with my Thai wife and new family. Some years ago I bought a Condo for our main home in my name and a couple of years back we bought a house up North in my Thai wife’s name (for holidays). No problems everything legal and fair. If something happens to me, my wife has use of our Condo or income from it for her life then it goes to our child. If something happens to her I get the house which as a non Thai I must sell or if I can put in our child’s name. All arranged under proper Thai law and proper wills etc.

Sure if we fall out of love or whatever she has the house – she’s more than entitled to it and more for all wonderful times we’ve had together. I happily gave my first wife 50% of everything when through no fault of either of us we drifted apart. I’m happy to give my second wife at least as much.

My advice is:-

1. Do everything here 100% under law and 100% in spirit of Law – its clear foreigners are not allowed to own land.

2. So if you have a Thai wife but don’t trust her yet - don’t buy a house yet – buy a condo until you trust her or why marry her if u don’t trust her. Are all forangs unable to think with more than their junior members or are they just desperate.

3. Yes like everyone says be careful. Most Thais in my experience like most forangs are honest but too much money (like anywhere) temps even honest folk. Anyway if your not careful you’re going to get your fingers burnt (I’ve had mine burnt more often in UK and US, its just done a different way there) and anyone who trusts lawyers anywhere must need their head examining.

4. Stop getting paranoid, obey the law and you will be fine. If you try silly tricks then like anywhere you can get caught and pay the price.

5. Don’t trust anyone unless you’ve known him or her for a long time or they have a long good provable track record. This applies in any country.

6. Keep things in prospective. If u can afford it buy land/houses in your wife or Thai partners name or get another partner. Our 2 homes here cost a fraction of my previous home in UK.

7. It’s obviously not sensible to put all your life’s savings in a country you are not a citizen off . As a rough rule and dependent on how long you’ve been here and weather you intend to stay the rest of your life I’d say maximum 50% of your worth if you’ve been here over 5 years and intend staying for ever or 25% maximum if mot.

I’m glad I only discovered the Thai visa site long after I’d settled here – if you looked through a lot of post you’d be forgiven to believe that all Thais are crocks, all Thai girls only want forangs (forget age thing) for money and its impossible to have a fair chance here – utter rubbish – in my experience people are same world over – most like money, some will steal for it, some will try scams etc, most people are jealous to some extent of those who seem to have it all and so dislike them (same world over). Same applies here where most forangs have more than most Thais could ever dream of.

Some will say cynically that ill think different when I’ve been here another 5-10 years – maybe but I doubt it and if I do well that’s life – I’ve had a far better life and time here for 15 years than anywhere else I know.

So will wingers, mouners, doubters, sceptics etc play fair theirs tons I could say is wrong with UK or USA and theirs lots wrong here as well – enough said

Very eloquently put, but may I ask what a 'forang' is?

If youve been in Thailand long enough youll know its a kind of cheap fruit or are u complaining about my spelling ?? Sorry my spelling grammar in english or Thai is terrible

[lukamar]

One of the earlier posts stated that the land office would not transfer land with 49% farang shareholder, either IN or OUT.

That would lead you to think that as long as you are just living in/on the company owned property and don't want to transfer it, no one from the land department will bother you.

[TaxinMeter]

forang = Forget the age thing

as he said

The problems are going to arise not so much for existing companies holding land as the Land Offices have registered the said "bogus" companies for decades without blinking and now they go against the Thai shareholders to investigate their financial standing years back? Hardly. Too much hard and fruitless work and potential loss of face on all sides. Still, they may still come knocking with future enforcements and having the Thai government against one as a foreigner can involve a lot of stress in a country with a still immature (though improving) legal system.

It seems there won't be new land registrations involving foreigners and front companies which will depress the value of all properties owned by foreigners through Thai companies. And the investment climate for properties has certainly changed for the negative, popping the speculative bubble in many locations where valuations had reached absurd levels in just a few years. Schadenfreude aside, the motives for this law enforcement are hard to fathom because tax revenues for new transfers won't flow and the current account balance will dive even further.

[cobra]

The whole thing is TINK TONK! In this land of official xenephobia, investing, is like dropping a gold coin in the desert sands, the more you try to retreive it; the further it sinks!

Very well put,

I've always been inclined to rent instead of own, so it's a none issue to me, keeps my mobility unencumbered,

If you only rented all your life ,you lose the landlord wins.Only loser's never buy.Haven't you heard about inflation and property increasing.As far as Pattaya you can keep it all.

Never implied I've never owned, I own properties now, just not in the LOS,

In a short term scenario it isn't necessarily advantageous to own, Cash is King, (I'll assume you've heard that phase), a pile of cash just sitting in a modest Market Market Fund could yield more then the net from a reality sale in the short term. And your term "... only Losers never buy ... is just retarded,

[edd]

The solution is easy,

Buy the LAND in your wife’s name. Usually circa B1.000,000

Put a 30 year lease on it, plus another 30 to follow.

Build the house, this you can own and demolish if you choose to.

Keep your money out of Thailand and out of reach of the Thai courts and you’re soon to be ex wife.

If you end up divorced. The Thai law says all assets should be split 50/50.

So half the value of the house and land each. (poss, 2.000,000 each)

So it costs you about 2.000.000 Baht for the pleasure of getting rid of her.

You can offer to buy her out for a lower amount or make her wait till the end of the lease.

Get divorced in any western country and it will cost you a lot more.

Our house in Thailand is in my wifes name, if anything went wrong i would not want it, its in the village amongst the Thai family. property is one of the powest priorites in a divorce for me.

Quote

Hate to add to your woes,

SORRY you have got the wrong idea, we are happily married. going on 18 years

Quote

From what you have already read, it would come as no surprise if you were already on your way to a travel agent for a one-way ticket back to reality.

Bon voyage.

Good G*D i am not leaving Thailand, I love it here and the people

PS no one made us sign any papers or asked where the money came from when we built our house but it was 9 years ago

Edited June 1, 2006 by edd

[stevieff]

Perhaps we see things differently. I, too, hold land thru a company, but unlike you, I do care about my wife's financial future after I die, and so I am concerned about property values.

Hey there - of course I care about my wife's financial future. I dao have a lot of other assets that will be going her way after I die, which will be substantially more than any house I happen to leave her in Thailand. Whatever happens she and her family will be extremely well off for the rest of their lives - I'm simply not relying on some dodgy house ownership in Thailand to provide for that security - that's why I'm not having sleepless nights about it, and not too bothered about the value going up or down. OK?

Not exactly how you presented yourself in your original comment. This is a thread to discuss what is happening with regards to the new directive from the Land Office. If you're not interested in the financial impact of this upon your family, perhaps you might be better off commenting in the photography or bird-watching forums.

Look here - don't turn this into a f..cking pissing contest.

I have made many posts on what is now a combined thread, discussing the serious aspects of being deprived of the ownership of my property. I have already stated that the financial future of my Thai family is well taken care of and is not an issue - therefor it is of little interest to me if the short to medium term value of my house drops. I have, God willing, at least another 20 years on this earth, and by that time I can only imagine the house will be worth a reasonable amount. If not - it's simply not a big deal. Ok? Got it??

In any case, I wasn't aware that the sole purpose of this thread was to discuss the financial impact on families.

I would never have bought property here as a "nest egg" for my family, as I was aware of the risks and knew there was a chance I might lose it. I only invest in Thailand what I can afford to lose, as many have already advised - on this thread! How about you?

But that doesn't stop me discussing the current situation, and whether or not I can retain my current ownership.

Maybe you had better apply for a postion as a moderator as you seem keen on telling people which threads they should post on.?

Back to the subject in hand..

I have just been told through the "grapevine" that certain developers are planning to circumvent the new crackdown by simply transferring their shareholding in their companies rather than transferring the land to a new company.

Apparently, one particular developer has separate companies for each house he has built and he says he will transfer the 49% shareholding to the buyers when he sells the houses. No need to go to the land office, just transfer the shares in the existing companies, and thus solve the problem.

Seems too easy to be true

Any comments?

I wish to apologize for my earlier comments. You seem like a pretty good guy. I suppose I was angry at the government for this decision and writing things out of frustration. That does not excuse my behaviour, however. I doubt I'll ever meet you in person, but if I do, I'll buy the first round. As to the government, my anger is this. For years, they have let these companies exist, and then only after billions of foreign capital has flowed in, do they start to enforce the law. It's the ultimate bait and switch. People here say "well, its the law", well, it was the law many years ago as well. No one can honestly tell me the government is just now discovering this. If people here want to talk about the law, let's talk about the millions of dollars worth of pirated DVD's and software sold on the streets of Thailand everyday, most of which originates from my country, the USA. That's against the law as well. I don't see the great Thai government doing much about. So much for the sanctity of their "laws".

[stevieff]

Stevieff

It was me who thought

"Someone mentioned on this site that that foreign-owned hotels and resorts would be exempt, because they're engaging in trade"

and as I have no experience in this area it was a view taking from reading this and other boards so am willing to stand corrected.

However sunbelt Asia has said other lanholdings are going through such as a purchase of an office building as the main business is not the land ownership.

Would this then not be the case with a hotel or resort?

I hope this can be clarified.

I suppose it depends how you read the law. In a strick interpetation of the Land Code, I would think yes. But there are other commerce laws that may conflict with that. I have a friend in Chaweng Beach that has a bungalow operation, with 3 rai, acquired thru a company, with phony thai nominees, runs it profitably, pays taxes, etc. Could the government investigate and say it's just a front to own land? Possibly. I only mentioned this as something that might be possible. I mean certainly if he were to sell, he would have to transfer the land, yes?

[Rdrokit]

This seems like such a long thread, that no one has suggested suing your lawyer or your real estate agent. If you took their advice in buying the land it would seem they are culpable. I know in the states that would be the first alternative. As professionals they would have an obligation to know the law; while you as a layman would not. I see a huge sign in Pattaya across from the Marriot, that says "Foreigners can own Land" If not criminal liability, certainly civil.

Just had to chime in on this. Sounds like something said from someone who lived in the States as they are sue crazy there. Why sue the lawyer for your ingnorance? Do your due diligence BEFORE you see a lawyer. As some on once said about lawyers, "Believe nothing you hear and half of what you read"

[Rdrokit]

Perhaps we see things differently. I, too, hold land thru a company, but unlike you, I do care about my wife's financial future after I die, and so I am concerned about property values.

Hey there - of course I care about my wife's financial future. I dao have a lot of other assets that will be going her way after I die, which will be substantially more than any house I happen to leave her in Thailand. Whatever happens she and her family will be extremely well off for the rest of their lives - I'm simply not relying on some dodgy house ownership in Thailand to provide for that security - that's why I'm not having sleepless nights about it, and not too bothered about the value going up or down. OK?

Not exactly how you presented yourself in your original comment. This is a thread to discuss what is happening with regards to the new directive from the Land Office. If you're not interested in the financial impact of this upon your family, perhaps you might be better off commenting in the photography or bird-watching forums.

Look here - don't turn this into a f..cking pissing contest.

I have made many posts on what is now a combined thread, discussing the serious aspects of being deprived of the ownership of my property. I have already stated that the financial future of my Thai family is well taken care of and is not an issue - therefor it is of little interest to me if the short to medium term value of my house drops. I have, God willing, at least another 20 years on this earth, and by that time I can only imagine the house will be worth a reasonable amount. If not - it's simply not a big deal. Ok? Got it??

In any case, I wasn't aware that the sole purpose of this thread was to discuss the financial impact on families.

I would never have bought property here as a "nest egg" for my family, as I was aware of the risks and knew there was a chance I might lose it. I only invest in Thailand what I can afford to lose, as many have already advised - on this thread! How about you?

But that doesn't stop me discussing the current situation, and whether or not I can retain my current ownership.

Maybe you had better apply for a postion as a moderator as you seem keen on telling people which threads they should post on.?

Back to the subject in hand..

I have just been told through the "grapevine" that certain developers are planning to circumvent the new crackdown by simply transferring their shareholding in their companies rather than transferring the land to a new company.

Apparently, one particular developer has separate companies for each house he has built and he says he will transfer the 49% shareholding to the buyers when he sells the houses. No need to go to the land office, just transfer the shares in the existing companies, and thus solve the problem.

Seems too easy to be true

Any comments?

Oh yea, so you own 49% of your house?

[stevehaigh]

I just transferred land from my company to my wife, I figure it's not worth the sleepless nights worrying about the knock on the door.

I registered a Sitthigapgintalordsheevit as the same time. For those unfamiliar with that, it's like a lifetime (some say 30 year) lease but does not require any tax be paid.

I certainly do trust my wife more that I trust my lawyer/the government and if things go tits up with the marriage, I have control of the land until I die.

Mods, the multiple treads on this subject are annoying, maybe fold them into one and close the others?

Hi Steve,

I assume that you transferred the land from your company to your wife as a person - i.e no company involved on your wife's side. Stupid question, but just want to be clear on this.

One of the earlier posts stated that the land office would not transfer land with 49% farang shareholder, either IN or OUT. In other words he said that you couldn't even transfer (or sell?) the land to a Thai if the company still had a farang on the books as the 49% shareholder.

Has your transfer been completed? Was there any problem with transferring the land out of your company in which you were a shareholder?

Thanks

i transfered it to my wife the human, not a company.

interesting, i forgot to mension this in the original post, when we went in to the amphur with the NS3, the land officer mistakenly thought she was selling it to me. he gave her a photocopies piece of paper, presumably from head office which said they are not allowed to register land in company names until all the shareholders have been review by the revenue department to verify they are real investors (or something like that, my wife isn't a lawyer but she's very smart).

anyhow, she explained it was from my company to her and he signed off on everything in 10 mins.

steve

[Gary A]

I have to agree with Mobi as to increased or decreased home values. A house is a place to live and if you are happy with your house I fail to understand why it is important how much it is worth. I would guess the value increase or decrease would be important to speculators but if you plan to live there long term why is it important?

My condo has appreciated considerably but so what? I have no intentions of selling it so what's the difference?

[ovenman]

I have to agree with Mobi as to increased or decreased home values. A house is a place to live and if you are happy with your house I fail to understand why it is important how much it is worth. I would guess the value increase or decrease would be important to speculators but if you plan to live there long term why is it important?

I've never understood why people obsess about this increased value either, especially people I know back in the States. It's not like any of these folks are going to sell their sole dwelling for a tidy profit, stick that money in a bank, and then go live under a freeway overpass. They would need somewhere else to live. Guess what? The price of other property went up similarly along with theirs.

[Mobi]

I just transferred land from my company to my wife, I figure it's not worth the sleepless nights worrying about the knock on the door.

I registered a Sitthigapgintalordsheevit as the same time. For those unfamiliar with that, it's like a lifetime (some say 30 year) lease but does not require any tax be paid.

I certainly do trust my wife more that I trust my lawyer/the government and if things go tits up with the marriage, I have control of the land until I die.

Mods, the multiple treads on this subject are annoying, maybe fold them into one and close the others?

Hi Steve,

I assume that you transferred the land from your company to your wife as a person - i.e no company involved on your wife's side. Stupid question, but just want to be clear on this.

One of the earlier posts stated that the land office would not transfer land with 49% farang shareholder, either IN or OUT. In other words he said that you couldn't even transfer (or sell?) the land to a Thai if the company still had a farang on the books as the 49% shareholder.

Has your transfer been completed? Was there any problem with transferring the land out of your company in which you were a shareholder?

Thanks

i transfered it to my wife the human, not a company.

interesting, i forgot to mension this in the original post, when we went in to the amphur with the NS3, the land officer mistakenly thought she was selling it to me. he gave her a photocopies piece of paper, presumably from head office which said they are not allowed to register land in company names until all the shareholders have been review by the revenue department to verify they are real investors (or something like that, my wife isn't a lawyer but she's very smart).

anyhow, she explained it was from my company to her and he signed off on everything in 10 mins.

steve

Thanks Steve, at least we know that thger appears to be no problem in transferring land owned by a company with afarang shareholder.

One of my options is to simply transfer my shares to my wife, and not involve the land office, but it would seem that your way would be better -once its in the wife's name , there shouldn't be any further worries.

Think I'll just sit tight for a bit longer and see which way the wind blows.

At the risk of being a bore, I am interested in this business of farangs transferring their shares to other farangs when selling their houses, and effectively circumventing the new crackdown. I know it may only affect a small number of people, but it could be a way out for farangs who wish to sell their house and still retain a reasonable value, if they were able to sell to another farang via this route.

Do any of our "experts" out there have any views on this? Will it stand up to scrutiny? Will the companies registry office (or whatever it is called) raise any queries when the share transfers are lodged with the appropriate authorities?

[Gary A]

Steve, now that your wife is the sole stockholder will you now dissolve the company? What would be the purpose of paying an accountant to file tax returns? Yesterday I asked a male Thai friend of mine about this. He told me that since his company was inactive, the government would automatically dissolve it for him. That's contrary to what I have heard in the past.

[Jimbo551]

OK - so I cannot own land in my own right, but I can legally lease the land for 30 years and "possibly" another 30 years.

I can also build a house on the land and legally own the house.

What happens at the end of 30 years if, for whatever reason, the lease is not, or cannot be, renewed?

I still own the house so what happens to it?

[jaidam]

Gary,

If you just leave a company it does not get shut down automatically.

2 years ago we were advised by our lawyer to just leave our company which we wanted to close.He said nothing would happen and the govt would eventually shut it down.That worked for 2 years and then the govt started phoning us and actually came to our office and wanted to know where the tax,balance sheets etc were for the previous 2 years.

We are due to meet with the lawyer this week to find out how expensive a mistake we have made.I have heard of other people in a similar situation that have ended up being fined more than 100k baht.

[Mobi]

OK - so I cannot own land in my own right, but I can legally lease the land for 30 years and "possibly" another 30 years.

I can also build a house on the land and legally own the house.

What happens at the end of 30 years if, for whatever reason, the lease is not, or cannot be, renewed?

I still own the house so what happens to it?

Good question. I've wondering about this for some time.

[stevieff]

I just transferred land from my company to my wife, I figure it's not worth the sleepless nights worrying about the knock on the door.

I registered a Sitthigapgintalordsheevit as the same time. For those unfamiliar with that, it's like a lifetime (some say 30 year) lease but does not require any tax be paid.

I certainly do trust my wife more that I trust my lawyer/the government and if things go tits up with the marriage, I have control of the land until I die.

Mods, the multiple treads on this subject are annoying, maybe fold them into one and close the others?

Hi Steve,

I assume that you transferred the land from your company to your wife as a person - i.e no company involved on your wife's side. Stupid question, but just want to be clear on this.

One of the earlier posts stated that the land office would not transfer land with 49% farang shareholder, either IN or OUT. In other words he said that you couldn't even transfer (or sell?) the land to a Thai if the company still had a farang on the books as the 49% shareholder.

Has your transfer been completed? Was there any problem with transferring the land out of your company in which you were a shareholder?

Thanks

i transfered it to my wife the human, not a company.

interesting, i forgot to mension this in the original post, when we went in to the amphur with the NS3, the land officer mistakenly thought she was selling it to me. he gave her a photocopies piece of paper, presumably from head office which said they are not allowed to register land in company names until all the shareholders have been review by the revenue department to verify they are real investors (or something like that, my wife isn't a lawyer but she's very smart).

anyhow, she explained it was from my company to her and he signed off on everything in 10 mins.

steve

Thanks Steve, at least we know that thger appears to be no problem in transferring land owned by a company with afarang shareholder.

One of my options is to simply transfer my shares to my wife, and not involve the land office, but it would seem that your way would be better -once its in the wife's name , there shouldn't be any further worries.

Think I'll just sit tight for a bit longer and see which way the wind blows.

At the risk of being a bore, I am interested in this business of farangs transferring their shares to other farangs when selling their houses, and effectively circumventing the new crackdown. I know it may only affect a small number of people, but it could be a way out for farangs who wish to sell their house and still retain a reasonable value, if they were able to sell to another farang via this route.

Do any of our "experts" out there have any views on this? Will it stand up to scrutiny? Will the companies registry office (or whatever it is called) raise any queries when the share transfers are lodged with the appropriate authorities?

Still doesn't circumvent he possibility of the Land Office investigating the thai nominees of the company. It could also lead to further problems in the future, as now farangs are avoiding transfer taxes, etc. on land by simply transferring shares. If the company route is to survive, they will have to have wealthy thai nominees who can withstand the scrutiny of the Land Office. Just my 2 cents. This is just my opinion, but I think, until a more air-tight company structure is provided, land values will fall in Thailand, at least in the tourist areas. In the non-tourist areas, not really, because the market is not driven by farang capital.