gdringjr Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I have a few friends who are renting their Chiang Mai houses and condos on AirBnB.com and they are having great success with booking travellers into their accommodations. The bookings tend to be short term (a few days to a few weeks) and while the turnover is high, so is the compensation. All of my friend's homes are straightforward condo or house rentals with no other services or amenities. None of my friends have a work permit. Here is my question. If I open a bed and breakfast at my home (using my spare guest bungalow) and offer not only accomodation but breakfast and dinner, use of bicycles, golf clubs, computers, motorbike, etc., would I need a work permit? It seems to me that changing linens, preparing meals, cleaning up after guests, giving touring advice, picking people up at the airport, etc. is work. Since I'm being compensated for this work would I need a work permit? What's your take on this? I'm not looking for advice on whether the idea of opening a bed and breakfast is practical or not. The scope of my question is limited to the need for a work permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post wayned Posted March 11, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted March 11, 2014 Of course, you are working and by law you need a work permit! Members of the "Work Permit Brigade" will be along shortly and tell you the same, many of which are blatently working without a work permit, . Just wait a minute! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubonjoe Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 According to the law you would need a work permit. And some licensing and/or registration needed also, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slipperylobster Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 That and a business permit. Guest houses are covered by the same laws as hotel, and you would need to keep copies of passport and submit guest information to authorities. That would be the legal way. Of course, others are not concerned, and I suppose you could get away with it, just saying they are house guests. I suppose if your neighbors do not mind ..and you keep quiet about it. I know several people that just let the wives take care of the business... That relieves you of responsibility. My friend sits in his furniture store, but his wife did all the legalities. He never handles the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdringjr Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 OK, I've got three veteran posters telling me that a work permit is needed. Thank you very much. In a somewhat different scenario: I am the owner of a condo which I would like to rent to others. In order to rent my condo I have to post advertisements, respond to emails and calls, show the condo, collect rents, make or direct repairs and improvements, manage evictions, etc. This certainly sounds like work l but I know at least a dozen expats who have bought condos and then perform this work without the benefit of a work permit. Is a work permit needed if one buys and then rents or leases his/her condo? Would you HAVE to hire a management company to perform the management of the rental property to be within the law? If you did have to hire a management company, are the acts of of hiring and then working with your management company considered "work"? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdringjr Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 I guess what I'm asking is there any bright line rule that determines when a persons activity is deemed to be "work". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 I guess what I'm asking is there any bright line rule that determines when a persons activity is deemed to be "work". No, the rule of what is considered working is on purpose very vague to cover as much as possible. What you are proposing is making a business out of providing bed and breakfast, etc to generate income. Of course you would need a work permit for an activity like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdringjr Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 Thanks for that Mario. I've moved on from my original question which was answered succinctly by three members and my question now asks for a bright line or a definition of what you call " ...the rule of what is considered working...". What is this rule you mention? Is it codified in immigration law? There must be some definition of "work" for the purposes of Thai immigration law. Otherwise I suppose I could be arrested for weeding my carrots. If a government intends to charge someone with a violation of a law or rule than that law or rule must be defined or codified. Does anyone know the text of the rule or law defining "work" for the purposes of Thai immigration or where it could be found? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 The Alien working act: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=162114 Gives a very broad definition of labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post digitalchromakey Posted March 11, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted March 11, 2014 OK, I've got three veteran posters telling me that a work permit is needed. Thank you very much. In a somewhat different scenario: I am the owner of a condo which I would like to rent to others. In order to rent my condo I have to post advertisements, respond to emails and calls, show the condo, collect rents, make or direct repairs and improvements, manage evictions, etc. This certainly sounds like work l but I know at least a dozen expats who have bought condos and then perform this work without the benefit of a work permit. Is a work permit needed if one buys and then rents or leases his/her condo? Would you HAVE to hire a management company to perform the management of the rental property to be within the law? If you did have to hire a management company, are the acts of of hiring and then working with your management company considered "work"? Thanks! Yes it's work. If you hire a management company, then you are buying a service, that is not work. Thai Working of Aliens Act does not even take into account the issue of remuneration, so even voluntary activites can also be defined as work. The expats you know doing this with condos are, I guess, 'below the radar' and thus getting away with it, however the law is clear enough and they are certainly working illegally and also probably evading paying the taxes that would be due on these private business activities. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdringjr Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Wow! You were right Mario when you said there was a "broad definition of labour". I just read the Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008), Section 5 which defines "working" as "working by physical strength or knowledge whether intended for wages or any other benefits". Not only does this incredibly broad definition describe virtually everything everyone does during every waking moment but it fails as a definition at the most elementary level. It defines "working" as "working". That's like defining "run" as " to run". Amazing Thailand Edited March 11, 2014 by gdringjr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy B Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Even going to the toilet and taking a poop and then cleaning your own ass is classed as work here, as there is a Thai person who can be paid by you to do it for you..............insane Thailand laws. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunnydrops Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 It is confusing. I work on my families land, clearing brush and the like. I live 2 doors down from the district office. They know I work on the land--- but still, if I see their truck, I put down what I am doing and sit until they drive by. Kind of like the fake ID sellers covering their wares with a sheet when the police walk by on Kosan Rd. This is Thailand, if you aren't hurting anybody's business and there isn't any money they can make off you, you are most likely OK--But don't count on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The simple answer regarding work permit and other legalities in renting a property through AirBnB.com is that it is no problem unless/until somebody complains to the relevant authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fstarbkk Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 To the question of simply renting out a condo which you legally own: I do not believe that this in itself would be interpreted as work. However, any janitorial or maintenance should be assigned to a Thai, or someone with appropriate work permit. Once you're seen fixing the plumbing for your tenant etc., you have definitely crossed the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 (edited) Usually paint my fence and gate annually, no problems yet, they just think I'm crazy, working. One guy did ask me why I didn't get someone to do it and I wondered where he was coming from? When i said they don't do a good job and I have to do it again afterwards anyway, he didn't say anything else......that was about 5 years ago. it's makes sense to live under the law. But it seems to me some people are living here scared to death.......which must be awful. Edited March 12, 2014 by uptheos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 The alian labour law must be read in conection with what it wants to reguate: labour. It does not want to regulate doing your own dishes or even building your own house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdringjr Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 The way the law or rule is written it actually DOES apply to washing your dishes. Read it. Carefully. The Act states: "working" is "working by physical strength or knowledge whether intended for wages or any other benefits". Your cleaning of your pots and pans is "working by physical strength" and has the "benefit" of clean cookware and pleasing your wife. You can chuckle but that's how the law is written viewing it in a fairly broad intepretation. I'm really not trying to split hairs here. I'm just saying it would be nice if we expats had a clear, understandable rule or law to follow. You know a law or rule is vague when it raises more questions than it answers. If I told my fourteen year old "You must be home, in bed with your teeth brushed by 9PM" he would understand and could follow the rule. If I simply told him "I need you home after sunset" then I've opened up a real pandoras box and set myself up for some bodacious family disagreements. Of course rules and laws need to be read and interpreted in the spirit in which they were written. However sometimes, such as in this case, the spirit in which they were written is not clear at all. I know that the English version of the Alien Working Act was translated from Thai and I'll give the benefit of the doubt that there are errors in the translation. It's tough to write an understandable, clear and defining law, let alone translate it. You know a law or rule is vague when it raises more questions than it answers. If I told my fourteen year old "You must be home, in bed with your teeth brushed by 9PM" he would understand and could follow the rule. If I simply told him "I need you home after sunset" then I've opened up a real pandoras box and set myself up for some bodacious family misunderstandings and disagreements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uptheos Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Ask people why they're here and a LOT will say to get away from 'the rules' . Seems strange that so many then seem to become victim to the very thing they wanted to get away from...... and more. Of course no one came for the chicks and booze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLCrab Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Usually paint my fence and gate annually, no problems yet, they just think I'm crazy, working. One guy did ask me why I didn't get someone to do it and I wondered where he was coming from? When i said they don't do a good job and I have to do it again afterwards anyway, he didn't say anything else......that was about 5 years ago. it's makes sense to live under the law. But it seems to me some people are living here scared to death.......which must be awful. Painting your own fence & gate and starting Ca-MOOZ painting contractor service are not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laislica Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 I'm sure that I read on another thread that a chap was painting his own (wife's) house and had is collar felt. The conclusion was that he must have upset a neighbour and they had made a complaint. Therefore, stay on good terms with the neighbours and keep a lows profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recycler Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 In the end what is work is at the discretion of the officer on duty to decide. If an immigrations police officer is convinced that what you do is work, you'll have a hard and long time to convince the court of an other opinion. Also realize that the law is in Thai language en therefore even more vague and open to multiple interpretations than any English translation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirchai Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Keep a low profile and let your misses do the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
little mary sunshine Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Work permit and Business permit and tax license. If not you'll be paying the BIB 25% to keep out of jail....Piss off the wife and get deported !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebkk Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 OK, I've got three veteran posters telling me that a work permit is needed. Thank you very much. In a somewhat different scenario: I am the owner of a condo which I would like to rent to others. In order to rent my condo I have to post advertisements, respond to emails and calls, show the condo, collect rents, make or direct repairs and improvements, manage evictions, etc. This certainly sounds like work l but I know at least a dozen expats who have bought condos and then perform this work without the benefit of a work permit. Is a work permit needed if one buys and then rents or leases his/her condo? Would you HAVE to hire a management company to perform the management of the rental property to be within the law? If you did have to hire a management company, are the acts of of hiring and then working with your management company considered "work"? Thanks! it's not about what is considered "work". Dish washing is also work for which many people get paid for, yet you can do it at your home or even come to my home and do the dishes - no problem as long as you are not paid a salary for it, meaning you are NOT employed for doing dish washing. Same goes for working in your garden and washing your (and mine while you at it) car. If you live in a big house or condo and accept paying guests unofficially - not by running a proper business, then you are not legally working nor need a work permit. Whether or not it is legal to get paid for hosting people in your house or not is a totally different question. as for opening a proper guest house / hotel - as some people mentioned already - you have to register a business and get the proper permits for what you want to do, and if you are running this business, that means you are working and you need a working permit. Basically you can't sign cheques if you don't have work permit! and your question about renting out your property and collecting rent and such - again, if you have 1 or 2 places you rent our and this is not you JOB - then now actual business nor work permit. If you have 10 condos and it is actually a business - then again you need to register a business and get the proper work permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Off Topic post deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travel Dude Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 OK, I've got three veteran posters telling me that a work permit is needed. Thank you very much. In a somewhat different scenario: I am the owner of a condo which I would like to rent to others. In order to rent my condo I have to post advertisements, respond to emails and calls, show the condo, collect rents, make or direct repairs and improvements, manage evictions, etc. This certainly sounds like work l but I know at least a dozen expats who have bought condos and then perform this work without the benefit of a work permit. Is a work permit needed if one buys and then rents or leases his/her condo? Would you HAVE to hire a management company to perform the management of the rental property to be within the law? If you did have to hire a management company, are the acts of of hiring and then working with your management company considered "work"? Thanks! Hey, please wake up. This is Thailand. Don't ask all those questions based on your western values. You know all the answers already but you are trying to stir the xx. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neilcnx Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 It is still not decided whether you can do volunteer work - even without pay - without a work permit. So yes, you'll need one to avoid risk from possible fines, deportation or both. Don't take my word for it or any other amateur who may respond. I can't imagine any lawyer who would not answer your question in a free consultation. If you don't trust a lawyer, call your embassy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct99q Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 It is still not decided whether you can do volunteer work - even without pay - without a work permit. So yes, you'll need one to avoid risk from possible fines, deportation or both. Don't take my word for it or any other amateur who may respond. I can't imagine any lawyer who would not answer your question in a free consultation. If you don't trust a lawyer, call your embassy.Yes it has been decided, and yes you need the correct visa and work permit for volunteer work. Do not confuse people with missinformation if you are not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsjohnsson Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Isn't it rather obvious that you need work permit to run a B&B place. Just like you need it in other countries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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