Questions over crackdown on Phuket dive industry as foreigners arrested over permits

[Rorri]

PattayaPhom, on 12 Mar 2014 - 11:05, said:

ingvar, on 12 Mar 2014 - 10:39, said:

If you have a work permit to work at a dive shop, that is where you have to be when working and nowhere else.

For example you as a foreigner cannot wash your car or cut the grass in your garden, if you do these tasks you illegally are taking away a job opportunity from a Thai (Burmese) worker.

Cutting grass etc isnt work....

Um, wrong, by definition it is, in fact, by the Thai definition even "thinking" can be considered work. Section 5 of The Alien Work Act 2551 ""Working" means working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits." Technically you can not do anything, even cut your own grass (I'm assuming here lawn ). It's not that long ago that two guys were charged for building their OWN boats in their OWN yards. Another interesting point is, volunteer police do not have work permits, but by law they should as there is no Royal Decree removing the need for a WP. Therefore the volunteers AND the police, who hire them, are guilty.

[BudRight]

PattayaPhom, on 12 Mar 2014 - 11:05, said:

ingvar, on 12 Mar 2014 - 10:39, said:

If you have a work permit to work at a dive shop, that is where you have to be when working and nowhere else.

For example you as a foreigner cannot wash your car or cut the grass in your garden, if you do these tasks you illegally are taking away a job opportunity from a Thai (Burmese) worker.

Cutting grass etc isnt work....

Um, wrong, by definition it is, in fact, by the Thai definition even "thinking" can be considered work. Section 5 of The Alien Work Act 2551 ""Working" means working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits." Technically you can not do anything, even cut your own grass (I'm assuming here lawn ). It's not that long ago that two guys were charged for building their OWN boats in their OWN yards. Another interesting point is, volunteer police do not have work permits, but by law they should as there is no Royal Decree removing the need for a WP. Therefore the volunteers AND the police, who hire them, are guilty.

Now I know why my wife says I think too much.

[Malthus101]

Both the marine police in uniform with the same marked vehicle they always bring and the tourist police in a marked pick-up truck, 3 in plain clothes with ID's around their necks, and one with a black tourist police polo shirt, were at the pier yesterday. Our staff was checked both on the way out by the marine police and when we returned by the tourist police. The tourist police were photographing anyone carrying equipment. One of our customers was momentarily detained by the tourist police for carrying boxes. How can both of these departments have rogue officers working off the reservation? This is not the first time this has happened. I think it's time to start photographing the officers while they photograph us!

My friend - they want evidence, get some. Set up a video recorder and a stills camera and record these activities on the pier. Attach audio recording devices to your person, get arrested, record it all and play along, pay the fine when they ask. Even goes as far as to wear glasses with small video cameras in the frame.

Put together a nice little narrative package and make your claims in court - be prepared to leave Phuket ASAP.

[joboss]

I wonder when this witches hunt will stop ....

When all the dive boats have moved on because the reef is no longer worth looking at and nobody goes to Phuket anymore.

Most people I know, when asked how was their time in Phuket, answer, "I'm not in a hurry to go again"

[PattayaPhom]

I wonder when this witches hunt will stop ....

When all the dive boats have moved on because the reef is no longer worth looking at and nobody goes to Phuket anymore.

Most people I know, when asked how was their time in Phuket, answer, "I'm not in a hurry to go again"

The past few months track record, when they are all sunk

[martinhp]

This police er same like dogs they always come back and always need somebody to take care of them can not do much not to much brain

but take picktures and make them public if every body do so it is difficult to steal money and stay here on phuket for them

[stevenl]

Another example of "Thainess" and cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Places that rely on the dive industry (such as Koh Tao) are going to suffer if this becomes widespread. The visa rules are unworkable for this industry (where the place of work is an office) and its safety critical to have a native language speaker teaching things that are effectively life or death information (I've worked with compressed gasses for years, and if you get it wrong - its boom!).

That is unless all these Thai dive instructors are learning to speak swedish, french, german, spanish, russian, korean, chinese, japanese etc...

Please don't confuse the nearly exclusively illegal practices on Koh Tao (working without workpermits and many, many people working on tourist visas or visa exempt entries) with the practices on Phuket, where the people taken to the police station nearly all were in possession of a valid workpermit and proper visa.

The visa rules are clearly workable for the dive industry, as has been proven here for years and years.

[fullcave]

Chalong is a rats nest. Nothing new here….

[Jerry Cornelius]

Another example of "Thainess" and cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Places that rely on the dive industry (such as Koh Tao) are going to suffer if this becomes widespread. The visa rules are unworkable for this industry (where the place of work is an office) and its safety critical to have a native language speaker teaching things that are effectively life or death information (I've worked with compressed gasses for years, and if you get it wrong - its boom!).

That is unless all these Thai dive instructors are learning to speak swedish, french, german, spanish, russian, korean, chinese, japanese etc...

Depends on how well a work permit is worded.

If I was managing a dive school, I wouldn't have much confidence that I had an adequate work permit, if it had been written by an accountant.

Jerry

[PiPiFFS]

Another example of "Thainess" and cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Places that rely on the dive industry (such as Koh Tao) are going to suffer if this becomes widespread. The visa rules are unworkable for this industry (where the place of work is an office) and its safety critical to have a native language speaker teaching things that are effectively life or death information (I've worked with compressed gasses for years, and if you get it wrong - its boom!).

That is unless all these Thai dive instructors are learning to speak swedish, french, german, spanish, russian, korean, chinese, japanese etc...

Please don't confuse the nearly exclusively illegal practices on Koh Tao (working without workpermits and many, many people working on tourist visas or visa exempt entries) with the practices on Phuket, where the people taken to the police station nearly all were in possession of a valid workpermit and proper visa.

The visa rules are clearly workable for the dive industry, as has been proven here for years and years.

Funny then how everyone I know that works on Tao has a work permit and pays taxes yet the people I know that work on Phuket don't have any and I don't know of a single person on Koh Phi Phi that has one either. There farangs are touting for diving from the front of dive shops and actively handing out flyers throughout the island unlike the supposedly lawless Tao.

[falkan]

a couple of years ago immigration visited phuket gazette after some articles i wonder how long it will take for them to visit thephuketnews after this article...

[stevenl]

Another example of "Thainess" and cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Places that rely on the dive industry (such as Koh Tao) are going to suffer if this becomes widespread. The visa rules are unworkable for this industry (where the place of work is an office) and its safety critical to have a native language speaker teaching things that are effectively life or death information (I've worked with compressed gasses for years, and if you get it wrong - its boom!).

That is unless all these Thai dive instructors are learning to speak swedish, french, german, spanish, russian, korean, chinese, japanese etc...

Please don't confuse the nearly exclusively illegal practices on Koh Tao (working without workpermits and many, many people working on tourist visas or visa exempt entries) with the practices on Phuket, where the people taken to the police station nearly all were in possession of a valid workpermit and proper visa.

The visa rules are clearly workable for the dive industry, as has been proven here for years and years.

Funny then how everyone I know that works on Tao has a work permit and pays taxes yet the people I know that work on Phuket don't have any and I don't know of a single person on Koh Phi Phi that has one either. There farangs are touting for diving from the front of dive shops and actively handing out flyers throughout the island unlike the supposedly lawless Tao.

On both Koh Tao and Phi Phi working without workpermit and proper visa is the norm. On both places the managers of the DC's will have a WP and maybe the head instructor, that's it.

Regarding workpermits and visas there is I think no place in Thailand where the rules are enforced as much as they are here. Which is perfectly ok by the way, just wish they'd do it more in some other places as well.

[BudRight]

Another example of "Thainess" and cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Places that rely on the dive industry (such as Koh Tao) are going to suffer if this becomes widespread. The visa rules are unworkable for this industry (where the place of work is an office) and its safety critical to have a native language speaker teaching things that are effectively life or death information (I've worked with compressed gasses for years, and if you get it wrong - its boom!).

That is unless all these Thai dive instructors are learning to speak swedish, french, german, spanish, russian, korean, chinese, japanese etc...

Please don't confuse the nearly exclusively illegal practices on Koh Tao (working without workpermits and many, many people working on tourist visas or visa exempt entries) with the practices on Phuket, where the people taken to the police station nearly all were in possession of a valid workpermit and proper visa.

The visa rules are clearly workable for the dive industry, as has been proven here for years and years.

Funny then how everyone I know that works on Tao has a work permit and pays taxes yet the people I know that work on Phuket don't have any and I don't know of a single person on Koh Phi Phi that has one either. There farangs are touting for diving from the front of dive shops and actively handing out flyers throughout the island unlike the supposedly lawless Tao.

On both Koh Tao and Phi Phi working without workpermit and proper visa is the norm. On both places the managers of the DC's will have a WP and maybe the head instructor, that's it.

Regarding workpermits and visas there is I think no place in Thailand where the rules are enforced as much as they are here. Which is perfectly ok by the way, just wish they'd do it more in some other places as well.

Yeah, to be more fair. Or rather, more broadly unfair.

[NomadJoe]

Technically a work permit only permits the holder to work at the address(es) listed in the work permit. Any other work locations need to be added. This is a simple matter if a company has several branches but to work on a pier is probably impractical, as the employer needs to have confirmation in writing that the owner of that property has leased the space to the employer.

This is an example of the ridiculous rigidity of Thai bureaucracy. They like to keep things rigid, so that they can waive overly burdensome regulations at their discretion but still have the right to enforce them when they want to crack down on some one or shake them down for a bribe. Of course, many workers need to work at multiple locations, such as clients' offices, hotel conference rooms, work sites etc and it is impractical to list all of these in a WP. Some may only be required for one meeting. Wealthy Thais enjoy the right to have foreign enemies arrested for working temporarily in the wrong location and no one is going to want to take away this important privilege. It has happened to foreign accountants working on insolvency cases. Sometimes the foreign worker gets arrested due to some one having a grudge against his Thai employer that he knows nothing about.

In the Phuket case, the police enforcing this absurd regulation seem to be either complete fraudsters or moonlighting police. There are a lot of extortion rackets operated there by well connected criminals.

Related: http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1378

[NomadJoe]

PattayaPhom, on 12 Mar 2014 - 11:05, said:

ingvar, on 12 Mar 2014 - 10:39, said:

If you have a work permit to work at a dive shop, that is where you have to be when working and nowhere else.

For example you as a foreigner cannot wash your car or cut the grass in your garden, if you do these tasks you illegally are taking away a job opportunity from a Thai (Burmese) worker.

Cutting grass etc isnt work....

Um, wrong, by definition it is, in fact, by the Thai definition even "thinking" can be considered work. Section 5 of The Alien Work Act 2551 ""Working" means working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits." Technically you can not do anything, even cut your own grass (I'm assuming here lawn ). It's not that long ago that two guys were charged for building their OWN boats in their OWN yards. Another interesting point is, volunteer police do not have work permits, but by law they should as there is no Royal Decree removing the need for a WP. Therefore the volunteers AND the police, who hire them, are guilty.

I can't imagine you two are serious about the grass cutting comments, but just in case others are falling for your troll posts:

"...you cannot do any kind of work for anyone else even if you dont receive pay or any other reward for it....However, this doesnt mean that you cannot do work for your daily life at your home. You are still able to clean the dishes, cut grass, cook or whatever in your home, just as anyone does in their normal daily lives."

- Janya Yingyong, an officer at the Phuket Provincial Employment Office Work Permit Section.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1038&Search=workpermit%20cut%20grass

There were several versions of the story about the foreigners arrested for building their own boats. One was they were building them for others, another was they were arrested for overstay, not for violating labor laws. Who knows where the truth lies.

Edited March 13, 2014 by NomadJoe

[Rorri]

NomadJoe, on 13 Mar 2014 - 09:37, said:

Rorri, on 12 Mar 2014 - 12:25, said:

PattayaPhom, on 12 Mar 2014 - 11:05, said:

PattayaPhom, on 12 Mar 2014 - 11:05, said:

ingvar, on 12 Mar 2014 - 10:39, said:

ingvar, on 12 Mar 2014 - 10:39, said:

If you have a work permit to work at a dive shop, that is where you have to be when working and nowhere else.

For example you as a foreigner cannot wash your car or cut the grass in your garden, if you do these tasks you illegally are taking away a job opportunity from a Thai (Burmese) worker.

Cutting grass etc isnt work....

Um, wrong, by definition it is, in fact, by the Thai definition even "thinking" can be considered work. Section 5 of The Alien Work Act 2551 ""Working" means working by physical strength or knowledge whether or not intended for wages or any other benefits." Technically you can not do anything, even cut your own grass (I'm assuming here lawn ). It's not that long ago that two guys were charged for building their OWN boats in their OWN yards. Another interesting point is, volunteer police do not have work permits, but by law they should as there is no Royal Decree removing the need for a WP. Therefore the volunteers AND the police, who hire them, are guilty.

I can't imagine you two are serious about the grass cutting comments, but just in case others are falling for your troll posts:

"...you cannot do any kind of work for anyone else even if you dont receive pay or any other reward for it....However, this doesnt mean that you cannot do work for your daily life at your home. You are still able to clean the dishes, cut grass, cook or whatever in your home, just as anyone does in their normal daily lives."

- Janya Yingyong, an officer at the Phuket Provincial Employment Office Work Permit Section.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1038&Search=workpermit%20cut%20grass

There were several versions of the story about the foreigners arrested for building their own boats. One was they were building them for others, another was they were arrested for overstay, not for violating labor laws. Who knows where the truth lies.

Nomad Joe, I suggest, instead of taking the word of this officer, as we know, they all interpret the laws differently, I suggest you read the "Section 5 of The Alien Work Act 2551 ". I am fully aware there were several versions, mostly on this site not from the islands news media, of the boat building saga, the fact remains they were not charged with anything else except no WP.

[cloghead]

"Diving Instructors"...

"but, but, but... back in Norway/Switzerland/Kansas they told me Thailand was all brown-skinned nymphos, white sand beaches, crystal clear water, palm trees swaying gently in the breeze"...and no need for silly stuff like certified qualifications, work permits or licenses...

nobody said nothing about 'if you wanna play, you gotta pay'

welcome to Paradise

Edited March 13, 2014 by cloghead

[ingvar]

Dear Nomad Joe, of course I was not serious about the grass cutting thing or the car washing, nobody really cares about those things. I just pointed out that if an officer want to apply the law in the worst way he can, according to the strictest interpretation of the law, you cannot do anything that can otherwise be done by a local (against pay), this includes cutting the grass and washing your car amongst many other things.

Now this is if the officer choose to use the law against you.

[EBlair48]

If you have a work permit to work at a dive shop, that is where you have to be when working and nowhere else.

For example you as a foreigner cannot wash your car or cut the grass in your garden, if you do these tasks you illegally are taking away a job opportunity from a Thai (Burmese) worker.

This is just not true, it has been clarified time and again. You can certainly wash your car do your laundry etc, even maintain your own property- anyone tries to hassle you for this , you need to give them your lawyer's number. And if you cannot afford a competent lawyer, well you'll find it hard going here.

As for working outside the designated address, true that can get you arrested rightfully so but seems one only has to put down on the WP application , or make a change on an exisiting WP to include " On a boat, "( name of boat..)

I'm the first one to hate the Thais for their treatment of foreigners, among other reasons- believe me, but you simply have to keep it legal , or yes you are subject to shakedowns, and I guess that's fine for some people to operate like that.

If you're legal, just be firm , say no- do not pay, and they will not hassle you beyond a fishing expedition. I've had 9 uniformed officers on

" Monkey Monday " ( I call it as that's the day officials put on their uniform monkey suits to puff themselves up) descend upon my place of business and make things up to try to get 30,000.

Nope not paying, though will have to pay a lawyer- " Ah, we'll need this in writing, please " never heard back so they get us one way- or the other yeah, hate is the word.

I think the trick to living relatively worry -free in Thailand is to not actually want to live here. Once you're hooked on the women, or whatever, well then they got ya and they can smell it, too.

I also agree even if you can- do not speak Thai in these circumstances, that just makes it convenient for them,not you. -

Edited March 13, 2014 by EBlair48

[BudRight]

Dear Nomad Joe, of course I was not serious about the grass cutting thing or the car washing, nobody really cares about those things. I just pointed out that if an officer want to apply the law in the worst way he can, according to the strictest interpretation of the law, you cannot do anything that can otherwise be done by a local (against pay), this includes cutting the grass and washing your car amongst many other things.

Now this is if the officer choose to use the law against you.

Damnit, don't let my wife see this! She'll have me behind a lawnmower before I can say 'let the kids do it,'

[stevenl]

If you have a work permit to work at a dive shop, that is where you have to be when working and nowhere else.

For example you as a foreigner cannot wash your car or cut the grass in your garden, if you do these tasks you illegally are taking away a job opportunity from a Thai (Burmese) worker.

This is just not true, it has been clarified time and again. You can certainly wash your car do your laundry etc, even maintain your own property- anyone tries to hassle you for this , you need to give them your lawyer's number. And if you cannot afford a competent lawyer, well you'll find it hard going here.

As for working outside the designated address, true that can get you arrested rightfully so but seems one only has to put down on the WP application , or make a change on an exisiting WP to include " On a boat, "( name of boat..)

I'm the first one to hate the Thais for their treatment of foreigners, among other reasons- believe me, but you simply have to keep it legal , or yes you are subject to shakedowns, and I guess that's fine for some people to operate like that.

If you're legal, just be firm , say no- do not pay, and they will not hassle you beyond a fishing expedition. I've had 9 uniformed officers on

" Monkey Monday " ( I call it as that's the day officials put on their uniform monkey suits to puff themselves up) descend upon my place of business and make things up to try to get 30,000.

Nope not paying, though will have to pay a lawyer- " Ah, we'll need this in writing, please " never heard back so they get us one way- or the other yeah, hate is the word.

I think the trick to living relatively worry -free in Thailand is to not actually want to live here. Once you're hooked on the women, or whatever, well then they got ya and they can smell it, too.

I also agree even if you can- do not speak Thai in these circumstances, that just makes it convenient for them,not you. -

I agree with a big part of what you're saying, but "As for working outside the designated address, true that can get you arrested rightfully so but seems one only has to put down on the WP application , or make a change on an exisiting WP to include " On a boat, "( name of boat..)" this is not workable.

The instructors are working on multiple boats, so all boats would have to be mentioned, they are also working on the pier, in several swimming pools, at several beaches and sometimes at several shop locations. On top of that also a Krabi workpermit should be applied for, since the Shark Point area and Phi Phi area are within Krabi jurisdiction.

[NomadJoe]

If you have a work permit to work at a dive shop, that is where you have to be when working and nowhere else.

For example you as a foreigner cannot wash your car or cut the grass in your garden, if you do these tasks you illegally are taking away a job opportunity from a Thai (Burmese) worker.

This is just not true, it has been clarified time and again. You can certainly wash your car do your laundry etc, even maintain your own property- anyone tries to hassle you for this , you need to give them your lawyer's number. And if you cannot afford a competent lawyer, well you'll find it hard going here.

As for working outside the designated address, true that can get you arrested rightfully so but seems one only has to put down on the WP application , or make a change on an exisiting WP to include " On a boat, "( name of boat..)

I'm the first one to hate the Thais for their treatment of foreigners, among other reasons- believe me, but you simply have to keep it legal , or yes you are subject to shakedowns, and I guess that's fine for some people to operate like that.

If you're legal, just be firm , say no- do not pay, and they will not hassle you beyond a fishing expedition. I've had 9 uniformed officers on

" Monkey Monday " ( I call it as that's the day officials put on their uniform monkey suits to puff themselves up) descend upon my place of business and make things up to try to get 30,000.

Nope not paying, though will have to pay a lawyer- " Ah, we'll need this in writing, please " never heard back so they get us one way- or the other yeah, hate is the word.

I think the trick to living relatively worry -free in Thailand is to not actually want to live here. Once you're hooked on the women, or whatever, well then they got ya and they can smell it, too.

I also agree even if you can- do not speak Thai in these circumstances, that just makes it convenient for them,not you. -

I agree with a big part of what you're saying, but "As for working outside the designated address, true that can get you arrested rightfully so but seems one only has to put down on the WP application , or make a change on an exisiting WP to include " On a boat, "( name of boat..)" this is not workable.

The instructors are working on multiple boats, so all boats would have to be mentioned, they are also working on the pier, in several swimming pools, at several beaches and sometimes at several shop locations. On top of that also a Krabi workpermit should be applied for, since the Shark Point area and Phi Phi area are within Krabi jurisdiction.

Actually SP, KC and AR are in Phangna province, so that one will have to be added too.

[gk10002000]

So how about somebody that has a work permit as an airplane flight instructor? Sure you can do the classroom stuff, navigation, rules and regs, etc. But at some point yous gots to get into an airplane with the student. Same thing here with diving, and I am sure with many other occupations. You have to be out in the field or out of the office/building