Waterproofing around a tub/shower: more than caulk?

[Sheryl]

Have a leak coming into the downstairs bathroom, after removing the ceiling it is evident it is coming from the tub in the bathroom on the 2nd floor above it. The amounts of water at a time are small (droplets) so I think it is from slight seepage around the caulk seal. I had a similiar problem in past in a section of the kitchen located beneath the showerr of a different upstairs bathroom.

The "chang" needless to say initially wanted to competely remove the bathtub (probably destroying it and the tiling in the process). I suggested we just try re-caulking first, which worked in the prior situation (though the problem recurred after a few years).

I am just wondering if there is any thing I can apply over the tiles and caulking around tub and shower that would provide even more waterproofing? What seems to happen is that small amounts of water seep into the underlying cement over a long time and eventually starts dripping onto the ceiling below.

Appreciate any thoughts/ideas.....

[manarak]

I had a similar problem and it turned out the geniuses used non-waterproof grout !!

Indeed something to check out first.

[steve187]

to reseal the tub, you will need a good quality silicone, not 'caulk' which refers ( to us from the uk ) to decorators caulking, completely remove all old silicone, fill the tub with water, make sure area is dry and apply the new silicone, smooth with a 'spit' finger and leave to dry over night before draining water, a replacement for 'spit' would be a weak solution of washing up liquid in water in a squeezey bottle,

also make sure the grout above the seal is in good condition, very few grouts are water proof, only water resistant.

[bankruatsteve]

My experience with leaks is to find the source of the leak and repair that. External application of anything will only mask the problem at best.

[cdmtdm]

a product called Plug by Crocodile is very good esp for small stuff , check it out at homepro or one of the big hardware lines , easy to use and cheap ....

[Sheryl]

My experience with leaks is to find the source of the leak and repair that. External application of anything will only mask the problem at best.

There is no evident leak. There is just small seppage through the concrete. Which is why I think it must be from the spaces between the tube and the tile or between the tiles around the tub. Had exact same problme with a shower and re-grouting solved it.

I gather from above posts that silicon is preferred to grout., Any specifics as to what constitutes a "good wuality" silicone?

[Sheryl]

a product called Plug by Crocodile is very good esp for small stuff , check it out at homepro or one of the big hardware lines , easy to use and cheap ....

Is this suitable for use in a tub/shower? Or is it one of those cement things?

[Mrjlh]

Just a thought. Are you sure it is not the seal around the tub drain? That needs to be checked. From the bottom floor looking up into the ceiling can you see the drain pipe? One way to tell is plug the drain and partially fill the tub with colored water (red). Food coloring works. If its the drain then you will see it easily. Then you will need to remove the tub drain and reseal it. And that depends n how it was installed. Other wise scrap off any old sealant around the drain or the edge of the tub and use good silicon bath sealant. Best advice I can give without actually seeing the problem.

[Sheryl]

Will try that. I actually tries to remove the drain already thinking I'd go ahead and redo that seal just in case but there;s no getting it out, at least not without risking damage to the tub.. (House was built in 1997 so it's old).

Can you be more specific as to what constitutes a "good" silicon bath sealant?

[JesseFrank]

A good silicon sealant for bathrooms is a non-acetic ( neutral curing ) silicone. Most brands have it specified on the tube if is suitable for bathrooms.

http://www.phsealants.co.uk/about.html

Edited March 18, 2014 by JesseFrank

[Sheryl]

Very helpful, thanks. I have bought some and sealed up everything that looked like water could possibly be getting in. Now waiting for it to dry and will test tomorrow to see if still leaking. Fingers crossed.

[cheeryble]

As with most things Sheryl the preparation is the thing.

So with silicone.

You need to carefully remove anything previous traces leaving only the bed for the silicone (possibly old grout or mortar) but cleaning the edge of the seal to the bath and tiles properly, including a final wipe with a good solvent like alcohol to remove all trace of grease.

(In fact the best permanent seal is epoxy, I even lined a whole shower area with epoxy running it carefully onto the shower tray at the bottom an eighth inch with masking tape. Epoxy takes some skill but is strong as all hell, however for you go with good silicone as mentioned, and good cleaning).

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[eeeya]

had this problem in a house where my father and myself built a bathroom and tiled it ourselves. Was good for a couple of years then one day i moved a cupboard in a room which shared the same back wall and there was the biggest mould growth ive ever seen.. So we ripped the wall down and all the wood in the wall was damp and rotten.

we traced it back to the shower floor which had been weeping water over the years. Ripped up all the tiles, painted a membrane to seal it all up properly and then re tiled it.

Still going strong after 25 years.

[Sheryl]

Well alas it is clear that the leakage is nto from any of the caulked/sealed areas. It is either fro mthe drain itslef or else fro mthe entire tub (with the water seeping out in small quantities and then exiting around the drain since that is where there is space to do so.

Either way, am going to have to remove the tub and more than likely replace it. And possibly tiling as well depending on how much damage the rmeoval of the tub creates.

Serious expense that I am ill positioned for at the moment but as they say in my home town, Whaddja gonna do?

Since this is going tio be necessary anyhow I would like to ensure no repeat of a mistake made when the tub was first installed. Apparently there is sometghing they are supposed to do with the drain -- an S curve oir something like that? -- that would prevent it from causing water to spout up in the drain in the bathroom below it (which it does, unless I take measures to ensure slow drainage). The idiot who originally installed the tub (among his myriad sins) , when I complained to him about this, informed me it was my fault for filling the tub with water. (Apparently I was expected to do nothing but shower in the tub. Why I would have gone to the expense of buying a tub in that case, don't ask me!) Anyhow- can someone tell me what it is that needs to be done exactly next time to avoid this problem? I'm out in the sticks and local changs are not used to farang habits/houses.

[thepool]

This may be of assistance !

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HomebaseStaticPageSecondLevel?langId=110&storeId=10151&includeName=HBCreateTheLook/how_to_basin_bath.html

[lopburi3]

That seems to be good logic that it is your fault for using too much water. And suspect it is believed as have not found many Thai to use tubs for more than shower base. Our tub was built into house in 1974 and had same issue with area around drain becoming warn and allowing water to enter the cement base of bath and then drip down to 1st floor. We removed the tub and installed shower and a drain for that and no issues since (believe about 20 years ago). In our case water was leaking from drain area of tub and going to cement pad/wall where after time this had opened enough to allow water to drain down. Most homes have had same issues. We did not have the gray water issue as took showers but did have issues with toilet until better air vents instilled on both toilet and septic tank.

[harrry]

You may need one of those sealing paints for the whole floor if it is seeping through the concrete.

[Sheryl]

You may need one of those sealing paints for the whole floor if it is seeping through the concrete.

Where would that be applied? Other than immediately underneath the tub, the entire floor is already covered with either tile (in the Bathroom) or parquet (everywhere else).

[Sheryl]

This may be of assistance !

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HomebaseStaticPageSecondLevel?langId=110&storeId=10151&includeName=HBCreateTheLook/how_to_basin_bath.html

I'm not sure that is it, looks like a standard wast trap. My problem is that the tub ultimately empties into the same piping as a floor drain in the bathroom below it and the water shoots up like a geyser. So what would be needed would be something that I guess slows down the pressure of the draining water.

[harrry]

You may need one of those sealing paints for the whole floor if it is seeping through the concrete.

Where would that be applied? Other than immediately underneath the tub, the entire floor is already covered with either tile (in the Bathroom) or parquet (everywhere else).

At least under the bath.

By rights should have been applied all over the concrete before tiling.

[thepool]

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This may be of assistance !

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HomebaseStaticPageSecondLevel?langId=110&storeId=10151&includeName=HBCreateTheLook/how_to_basin_bath.html

I'm not sure that is it, looks like a standard wast trap. My problem is that the tub ultimately empties into the same piping as a floor drain in the bathroom below it and the water shoots up like a geyser. So what would be needed would be something that I guess slows down the pressure of the draining water.

Oh dear !

Sounds as though the system was poorly designed -----the problem is likely to be associated with venting and the actual diameter of the pipes.

Sorry I am no expert but hopefully someone here will proved a solution.

[Sheryl]

You may need one of those sealing paints for the whole floor if it is seeping through the concrete.

Where would that be applied? Other than immediately underneath the tub, the entire floor is already covered with either tile (in the Bathroom) or parquet (everywhere else).

At least under the bath.

By rights should have been applied all over the concrete before tiling.

Almost certainly was not. The sins of the contractor who built this house are legion. And the general quality of workmen out here is very very low.

Can you tell me the name of such a paint available in Thailand?

I am getting a bit paranoid about the stability of the concrete altogether at that section of the house. looking at it from below whole chunks are falling out and the iron bar things that I think were supposed to be inside it are showing.....

[harrry]

You may need one of those sealing paints for the whole floor if it is seeping through the concrete.

Where would that be applied? Other than immediately underneath the tub, the entire floor is already covered with either tile (in the Bathroom) or parquet (everywhere else).

At least under the bath.

By rights should have been applied all over the concrete before tiling.

Almost certainly was not. The sins of the contractor who built this house are legion. And the general quality of workmen out here is very very low.

Can you tell me the name of such a paint available in Thailand?

I am getting a bit paranoid about the stability of the concrete altogether at that section of the house. looking at it from below whole chunks are falling out and the iron bar things that I think were supposed to be inside it are showing.....

Don't get too paranoid Sheryl as we need you and though Mental Health Care is a little better than many people say I would rather you did not test it.

I cannot remember offhand the name of the sealer the painter I used got me to waterproof an area like that where we were having trouble. I will try to find out and let you know.

Most places here are built on the basis that labor is relatively cheap and it is better to use 2 year paint and apiont twice in ten years than 10 year paint and paint in 8.

[cheeryble]

This may be of assistance !

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/HomebaseStaticPageSecondLevel?langId=110&storeId=10151&includeName=HBCreateTheLook/how_to_basin_bath.html

I'm not sure that is it, looks like a standard wast trap. My problem is that the tub ultimately empties into the same piping as a floor drain in the bathroom below it and the water shoots up like a geyser. So what would be needed would be something that I guess slows down the pressure of the draining water.

Not so fast Sheryl

Let's try to save some work here.

1. The better solution if it is at all possible.....bearing in mind plastic piping is quick cheap work.....is not to slow down your outlet, it is to ensure the flow BELOW THE FLOOR DRAIN BELOW you speak of is CLEAR.

I have seen only recently water coming up thru a floor drain and the reason was a few feet below that drain was a bend in the drain from vertical to horizontal. Well being Thailand instead of using swept (gradual bends) they nearly always put sharp elbows in. So anything hair, bits of brick, any old rubbish or bits, coming down from above (especially in a condo building) tends to get caught at the bend and it builds up til it doesn't drain properly or at all. THIS IS COMMON HERE I personally have seen it several times, and once it is nearly clogged the water backs up to come up the floor drain even though it may have come from a bath floors above.

2. Going back to yr previous post the leak itself....

Can you get at......or just see....the outlet under the bath, without moving the bath, even if it means (very carefully) removing a handful of tiles?

If you can see it and have a flashlight you can see if the water is dripping out from there. Then you may be able to just replace it, possibly with one person extending their arm under holding the bottom piece and another holding the top piece above and winding it on between them.

Because u suggested it's either the outlet or the bath itself is leaking. Well let's try and nail that down.

Is the bath extremely rusty or something? If so is that around the outlet or is there a puddle in the middle after you empty in which case the plumber needs castration which u may be able to recommend a hospital for.

Or is it a plastic bath....in which case a potential leak crack should be visible?

If not we need to concentrate on merely changing the outlet, and this MAY.....usually is in fact....be doable without moving the bath.

3. Have you got another plumber than the retard who put it in?

Anyone else got one for Sheryl (sorry I don't now)? Is it CM?

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Edited March 21, 2014 by cheeryble

[lopburi3]

Cleaning the drainage is indeed good advise - but likely it was never designed for drain of bath amount under pressure from above so may not work if has always been an issue. You might install a stand pipe as used in laundry areas in US to prevent excess going into downstairs bathroom (or just a cap to block) (and if drain sometimes needed there have so you can unscrew to clean bathroom and replace after doing so. But new/larger drain is likely the best option if can be done. A third option is a sump in downstairs bath and pump when drain area gets full of water.

Do not believe she can access from under upstairs bathroom as normally there is a cement pad on that floor and leak would be at the top of it. If re-bar has become exposed it is likely also rusting so not a good sign (especially with added weight of tub full of water which am sure floor was never designed for). Use a shower upstairs and get a jacuzzi for downstairs if you want to relax in bath water? It might not cost anything more than trying to fix what is there now to support a tub and avoid leaking and likely would solve the too much flow to downstairs drain issue.

[cheeryble]

Oh yes forgot about the rebar (espoused metal) which you say is rusty Sheryl.

Remember rust is itself a protective coating.

My experience is USUALLY even very rusty looking rebar if you cut into the rust you will find good shiny metal underneath.

In any case the weight of filling bath should not be insignificant when the floor is made for many people and things (and a bath) to stand on.

BTW Lopburi and Sheryl I was thinking (assuming a concrete floor) of checking the bath outlet from the side not below, this is where (assuming no inspection panel in Thailand) I asked if one could remove say two or four tiles and check the outlet.

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[Sheryl]

Well at this point have removed the entire tub. Under the tub was a ton of sand all of it drenched in water. After clearing that out and letting it dry, no leak was visible. Removed some wall tiles/part of wall where the water enters (the water inlet turned out to be under the tub and then going up into the wall, likewise no leak apparent.

With the water turned on am going to wait 2-3 days to be sure no new water re-accumulates. If not then I can only assume that what happened was very small amount of water getting in at a time over a long time -- perhaps from around the drain area or or around the sides of the tub or both -- and accumulating little by little and then finally reaching enough mass that it began to leak through. That would explain the continued leakage for 2 days after I stopped using the tub (the water was already there) but not why it at one point seemed to worsen when the water to the house was turned on after having been off. Anyway if there is a leak in the water pipes, even a small one, it should result in visible water within a few days.

As for the cement/rebar issue I will post a picture later of how it looks (phine battery recharging)

[Sheryl]

Here's th pix, should I be worried?

[lopburi3]

Looks as if that was probably like that when they made the drain hole from the top - makes a mess on other side of concrete (done that). If that is the only spot does not appear structural to me (but not an engineer).

How was the rubber seal on drain from tub. Suspect they can decay with age and can allow water to leak. Over time getting everything wet as you indicated. I guess the sand was for counter support of the tub?

[JesseFrank]

Remember rust is itself a protective coating.

My experience is USUALLY even very rusty looking rebar if you cut into the rust you will find good shiny metal underneath.

You're joking, right ?

Rust is a corrosion and you will find shiny metal underneath until the point that the rust has eaten it all, and there isn't anything to cut in anymore.