Homebuilder Driving Me Crazy

[luckizuchinni]

I bought a new home last year in Thonburi. The house is OK. There have been some issues with windows and water, but generally they have been addressed. However, there is a situation now that is driving me bonkers, and I am not sure if I have any options.

I wanted a bathtub in the master bath, so I bought the tub and hot water heater before the house was finished. I was told that to use the heater, I would need to upgrade the wiring, so I paid for the upgrade. The house was finished, and I finally found someone who could install the tub. It looks great, and I eagerly jumped in for my first bath. No hot water. It tripped the breakers after about 10 seconds. We asked the mooban office to look, and they said we need to upgrade the wiring. We told them we paid for the upgrade already, and they said the foreman forgot to tell the workers to install the correct wiring. And now that the home is finished, they cannot install the correct wiring unless we pay the paid for that, but we should pay for the extra labor now that they have already finished the walls. They think they are doing us a favor as they are not going to charge us for the smaller capacity wiring they already (and mistakenly) installed.

Then, as we have been arguing that, the foreman said that the box coming from the power company is too small. The mooban ordered the original box, but then charged me. Now, the power company says I have to pay for a new box. We asked the foreman once again why he had the wrong box installed, and he said he forgot to tell the power company which size they needed to put in When we said the mooban should chip in the cost of the smaller box that we wasted our money on, they said that no, that wasn't right as we would still own the smaller power box. Not that it would be connected or of any use but would be in the storage closet just sitting there.

The so-called "logic" of their position is mind-boggling to me. This was all been caused by their mistake, yet they expect us to pay to get it fixed. I really don't know what our options are, but I'm going to try and fight their position.

[sam sen]

their logic is clear. there were too lazy, stupid or corrupt to carry out your original request and now, typically, refuse to take any responsibility for their 'forgetfulness'.

have they offered to repay the money you paid for work and materials not supplied? i guess not!

my mate built his in-laws a house and said he had to be there very day and had to check everything as the builders were so unreliable hopeless.

i'd have a word with a lawyer.

[luckizuchinni]

my mate built his in-laws a house and said he had to be there very day and had to check everything as the builders were so unreliable hopeless.

Our neighbor did go to his house every day while it was being built. He said he caught many, many things that were being done incorrectly. Silly us, though. We thought home building companies knew how to build houses, and we came to see the place only on the weekends.

[Costas2008]

Really sympathise with you, Luckizuchinni......you haven't been very Lucky.

Hope your problems will be fixed soon and you have a Happy life.

[kannot]

Best advice is be on site 24/7 ....if it can be bodged or up in any way they will do it I GUARANTEE that 100%

[ABCer]

OP, mind it, I'm on your side.

But

- where have you been at the time of construction? if not present - it was coming;

- were all your conditions written on paper? if not - it was coming;

- sure you can fight, but you may not win or if you win - at what cost?

- save yourself nerves and trouble - TIT!

Here is my story to match.

Renovations (complete refurbishing) of an apt in a Condo.

Left money with the office girls and went back home - was not present.

Big mistake. Huge!

Kitchen - washing machine under granite top can not be moved out. One day if it breaks I have a demolition job on my hands.

Kitchen - sink down pipe stank - went straight down - no goose neck. Had to replace myself.

All water pipes 1/2 inch. Result - hot water heaters cut off because of water pressure drop.

2 out of 14 power points have no earth wire.

Next time I'll make sure I am here breathing into their backs.

My advice - check if the el. heater cuts off because of wiring or the water pressure drop or you will lose time and money again.

Good luck.

[namdocmai]

A lawyer will cost you more then new wires. Can you not use the wires of an aircon that you never use which are in the same area?

Thai construction always goes like this, they never take their responsability and you always pay or have a big problem.

I bought a brand new house with warranty, the cables for the boilers were 30 cm to small to install it safely, they wanted to extend them with tape what i refused. I paid for new cables myself at the end and also installed the things.

Thai electricians are also very amatueristic, i let them install an extra box and that caught fire one day. I did everything myself but for the connection between the old and new fusebox i wanted a specialist to make it, next time i will do it all myself.

[SjaakNL2013]

Yes... I can nothing else say that if you want quality you need to be there and check all for thy cover it up.

First house from in village from a big national company. Wiring and plumbing was done by a 10 year old. Only 10 cm pipe by the outlet the rest in concrete.. Changing wire colors and tape tape and tape to keep all together. Plumbing leaking and smelly.

Second house much better but still some serious miscalculations in roof strength an plumbing.

Third house totally build to German standards by a engineer who worked many years in Germany No cutting corners and all build from quality materials. Live here now 5 year in and only have to change sometimes a light bulp. .No leaking, no heating wiring, all an earth with switch and a total of 23 groups so well separated. All walls double stones (Gipsium) with isolation. Roof and floor isolation. Price of the house about double what the house would cost by Thai builder. But a great piece for mind.

[h90]

I would recommend to post here how much Watt the water heater needs.

There are a lot people who know a lot, maybe the wiring is actually strong enough. It seems no one is calculating the wiring here, often they use a way too big wiring or a way too small one.

The same counts for the box....I can't see where hot water needs huge electric.

Also you may consider to do it yourself......If you think you can't do it, or you don't have the time, just consider how much time you wasted with it already and how much you'll waste till it is done. In this time you may have learned it yourself already.

And by the way I REALLY recommend that after everything is working you go in the electric forum and ask how to check if your installation is proper connected and grounded. Non grounded hot water is very dangerous and most of the time it isn't grounded.....

I am servicing Air Cons myself....because after 10 different guys who brake more (some too silly, 1 or 2 made small problems on purpose) than they repair, I found it less time consuming to do it myself (and of course way cheaper).

[mmh8]

I empathise with you. professional building firms who produce thousands of new houses such as scasset, not one of the extra budget ones.

doors, substandard, why such cheap matierial

ceilings and floors - not level <deleted> why did you not check those at the time of building

electrics - how can you have wired it up wrongly if this switch turns it on that one should turn it off, surely it should work since when the upstairs switch for ight turns on the downstairs turns it off, so why not vice versa? and how does that even happen?

tiling - ok very nice but if you saw it had cracked already why did you install it?

yes I can see how getting the stairs to be level as opposed to sloping must have been difficult for you, I still want it level though.

windows - yes I do want them to be openable and fitted in the frame properly, well I assume the window in the frame came together yes all those windows with the latch should be openable

plumbing - hmm I like the fitting , you have done well with using metal fittings and metal reinforced hose, but why does the tap not tighten, yes I can see that when I tighten it up it slips back, obviosuly faulty, you must have spotted that during installation

do they have a contract to use cheap substandard material cast offs from other building firms?

the foreman smiled and spoke at length with the wife, we got everything changed, at their cost, but why was it not done professionally in the first place. they did try to charge us for moving the air conditioning, but was not having it when we even had a copy of the picture we gave showing exactly where it was meant to be.

[wym]

never buy only rent

[phil2]

check the circuit breaker

[Dave 74]

their logic is clear. there were too lazy, stupid or corrupt to carry out your original request and now, typically, refuse to take any responsibility for their 'forgetfulness'.

have they offered to repay the money you paid for work and materials not supplied? i guess not!

my mate built his in-laws a house and said he had to be there very day and had to check everything as the builders were so unreliable hopeless.

i'd have a word with a lawyer.

Ah yes, even more money for the OP to throw away until he realizes that is what he's doing.

Unfortunately you have to accept that this is what happens when you get Thais to do things.

[Rooo]

Moved to housing for more input.

[casualbiker]

Try saying you will go and get advice from the Consumer protection board. I presume you have receipts and notes about the changes? Most companies do not like the OCPB.

http://www.ocpb.go.th/main.php?filename=index

[Crossy]

Questions:-

What size is the water heater (Watts)?

What size is the breaker that supplies it (Amps)?

What size is the cable to the heater (mm²) the cable should be marked?

What size meter do you have (5/15, 15/45, 30/100)?

What size main breaker do you have (Amps)?

With this information we can suggest a way forward that will minimise your costs.

If you're not sure of any of this please post clear photos of the relevant items.

[bbradsby]

TiT. The solution is merely to understand that when doing a custom house or customizing any portion thereof, you must hire a professional [read: non-Thai]. This is true anywhere in the world.

Now its done, but not a huge thing. Relax. Know you'll NEVER get money back in Thailand, will lose more months, money, hair and heartache trying to fight it. Cut to the inevitable chase scene: take it as a learning experience, then do it /contract it yourself. Upgrade the wires in the in-wall conduit that all merchant builders use, install a new GFCI breaker in it's own sub-panel off the main distribution panel if there's no room in the existing main panel. Done. The feeders upstream of the meter should be up to the job unless youve maxed out the house with air con units.

The sparky knowledge-base here is awesome, and someone can chime in on wire sizes if you provide the tech specs on your water heater.

All the best,

[maswov]

Buy a solar water heater.

[rotary]

Chalk it up as a lesson learned, supervise everything if at all possible. What you are not sure about Google it to get the basic idea which is more than many builders know. I have been lucky with building 2 different houses and an addition. I had semi-competent builders and with very little supervision I was able to get it done 98% to my spec and very little problem. The biggest thing that went wrong was we asked for 1 bedroom to be light pink colour and the other rooms wheat colour. Well we ended up with all light pink interior walls. It grows on you after awhile! ha ha

There are calculators online to figure the proper electric wire size for the wattage needed. I use these for any wiring issues then use the next larger size as a safety factor.

Edited March 21, 2014 by rotary

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my mate built his in-laws a house and said he had to be there very day and had to check everything as the builders were so unreliable hopeless.

Our neighbor did go to his house every day while it was being built. He said he caught many, many things that were being done incorrectly. Silly us, though. We thought home building companies knew how to build houses, and we came to see the place only on the weekends.

To be honest of you build a house you must be on-site daily to make sure your house gets build in the same way you want it.

[godden]

come on get real, thai never make mistake, you pay or you have big problem, falang rich have big money, thai people poor, no like go home, just for the thai holier than thou brigade

[luckizuchinni]

The water heater is 9500 watts. We confirmed with the builders that it would work before buying it, then gave it to the builders to hold until it was time to install it.

It looks like the breaker is only good for 6,000 watts. The overall limit in the house, I think, is 10,000 watts with the current breaker box.

I have no idea what wiring they put in, only that it is not what we had paid to upgrade it to.

The reason we chose this house over another a few kilometers away was that this one had room for the bath and room for a proper western-style kitchen, so this really was a big deal for us.

[buck99]

I bought a high rise penthouse in the Phratamnak area of Jomtien built by a well known Pattaya developer. I wanted the condo built to my specifications and layout so I had professional CAD drawing done with exact layouts. I did floor plans, elevations, schedules and reflected ceiling plans. Everything was clearly detailed and specified. I gave the project manager 8 full sets of drawings figuring he could distribute the drawings to all of various trades. Each day I would check the progress only to find plumbing and electrical out of place. I went to the project manager and he would smile and ask me if I had some more sets of drawings. The next time I checked the progress, I found the plumbing and electrical were indeed moved but not to the correct location. I again went to speak to the project manager and he again smiled and asked for additional sets of drawings. It was only after many times of doing this that I realized that NOBODY could read plans and the project manager was just placating me by asking for more drawings. From then on, I was full hands on with all the trades as there was almost no supervision on the job site. They did everything three times and never seemed to mind the additional cost of time and material. I can't believe the developer puts up with these cost overruns. It must take a big bite out of his bottom line.

[Marcel1]

Yes... I can nothing else say that if you want quality you need to be there and check all for thy cover it up.

First house from in village from a big national company. Wiring and plumbing was done by a 10 year old. Only 10 cm pipe by the outlet the rest in concrete.. Changing wire colors and tape tape and tape to keep all together. Plumbing leaking and smelly.

Second house much better but still some serious miscalculations in roof strength an plumbing.

Third house totally build to German standards by a engineer who worked many years in Germany No cutting corners and all build from quality materials. Live here now 5 year in and only have to change sometimes a light bulp. .No leaking, no heating wiring, all an earth with switch and a total of 23 groups so well separated. All walls double stones (Gipsium) with isolation. Roof and floor isolation. Price of the house about double what the house would cost by Thai builder. But a great piece for mind.

I think Sjaaks story is spot on, in the end you get where you pay for. Everyone wants a cheap house built here in Thailand but you get cheap quality. there are no minimum requirements for materials and no skills needed for workers.

If you want a western quality house you pay western prices but in the end you fix a lot less which can come down to the same total amount minus all the stress

[SjaakNL2013]

The water heater is 9500 watts. We confirmed with the builders that it would work before buying it, then gave it to the builders to hold until it was time to install it.

It looks like the breaker is only good for 6,000 watts. The overall limit in the house, I think, is 10,000 watts with the current breaker box.

I have no idea what wiring they put in, only that it is not what we had paid to upgrade it to.

The reason we chose this house over another a few kilometers away was that this one had room for the bath and room for a proper western-style kitchen, so this really was a big deal for us.

Heaters go in Watts so the 9500 sound ok but breakers/switches go in Ampere.If not sure make photos of the breakers switches , the cables, the earth system and of the heater.

[FiftyTwo]

I can beat that.

The builder wired my house with the live and neutral wires to the house reversed.

The result being, every neutral wire was live all the time the main (double pole) breaker was on, not going through any fuses at all.

Made me jump when I tried to fit the shower heater.

Not because I got shocked, but because I couldn't work out why neutral had power with the breaker off.

They did rush round the other houses to check.

Then

The lid on the sewage tank wasn't fixed down. Nobody realized they were meant to remove the plastic lid, screw the lid holder to the tank access shaft, then put the lid back on. My kid could have fallen in and drowned in pooh. They didn't fix any of the other 200 houses they built because they claimed nobody else complained. I checked, none of the sewage covers safe.

Not to mention outside wiring all run about 5cm under the surface, at least they are in plastic pipes.

TiT.

PS

Changing the house feed ...... cheap.

Extra fuse box for heater ..... cheap.

Bit of a wire run to the bathroom ... cheap but it might look ugly (outside cable run will do the job).

Treating the heart attack resulting in beating your head against the numbnuts ........ expensive.

Best to just get on with it yourself.

Edited March 21, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[laislica]

Oops, the stable door was open and the horse bolted.

Never mind, just another of life's little lessons.

Just find a reliable person to install the heater and supporting switches for you and concentrate on arranging the house party.

Confrontation is a no no in Thailand and you will only have more grief and spend more.

Get it fixed and behind you and enjoy your new house.

Good luck.

[jacko45k]

OP...... could you perhaps buy a new water heater of smaller power rating, but one that stores a lot of water.

You know like a well insulated tank with a heater in it sufficient to fill the bath?

A 9900 watt heater would need a 50 amp breaker......and it sounds like you only have a 25amp system....

My house is a 100 amp system and a friend was doing his wiring and I suggested he had the same rating...... his workers etc all thought he was insane having such a high rating system and all the expense involved. I said do as you feel fit but 2 people can't have a shower at the same time unless they are in the same shower.

[dotpoom]

I had a bathtub installed and hot water heater in the en suite when we had the house renovated, got the electric company to upgrade the box to a 15 A from the original 10 A on the pole outside and had the whole house rewired.. We all stood in great expectations in the en suite toilet for the initial "test run" of the water heater....everything went well for about 15 seconds until somebody noticed water entering the kitchen from the dividing wall between the kitchen and the en suite..............soon discovered where it was coming from as it was slightly hot......the pipe that had been connected to the water heater inside the wall was a plastic pipe which quickly melted.....amazing now how well a metal pipe works when carrying hot water....if you get my drift. ....All's well now.

Edited March 21, 2014 by dotpoom

[derekwyoung]

Hi , lets see if I can shead some light on what you should have. If you have only just finished your house you have 4 things efecting how much power you have advailable .

1 Outside your house the electricity co . will have put a meter to mesure your consumsion . these come in several sizes and phazes . some one must have told the elect company what you wanted and how many phazes and you would have been charged for what u have ordered. they would have also ran cables from the meter into your house and conected them to your distribution box (propername consumer unit) this is the box inside your house that your bilders electrician wil have conected all your wires from all your lights sockets ,heaters and aircons.

If you have bought a good box (SAFE box)it will have two parts on the side that the electricity com conected to is a double pole safety switch (rcd or rcbo) . this swich will shut of all power if there is a faulty applience or wireing fault this box needs to have a good earth from the box to an earth rod bered into the ground.this switch comes in different sizes 32 amp, 60 amp 100 amp depends on how many rooms and applience in your house most houses would have 60 amp unless you have many aircons.60 amp would be the max amount you can draw from all of the mcb added together Next to this swich there may be a round switch that sets how much fault curent will go through this switch befor it trips . the smaller the better and safer

finaly your o/p side of your consumer unit consists of a number of breakers feeding different rooms and applience these are called mcb and set how much power can go through it befor it cut out ( turns off) they come in many sizes depending on the job you want them to do ie 4 or 6 amp for lighting 16 or 32 amp for wall sockets or aircon units , these are not perment fixtures and can be swaped or changed if necessary. it ma be that u only have to uprate the breaker that is feeding your water heater. the last thing is the size of the wiring to your heater .I can't help you much there unles u can get from the electrician the size of the wireing he putin and if u bleve what he tels you. All the switches should have there ratings printed on them in amps. Thailand is 220 volts for single phase . amps times volts =watts.: wats divided by volts = amps Hop this helps