Losing temper with Thai staff

[GAZZPA]

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Maybe you are expecting the Thais to behave , in an employment situation, in the same/similar manner as Westerners ?

They will not ! Thais carry a lot of cultural baggage and their education system is rooted in rote learning even at University level.

What is being invested in developing the Thai employees skills. ?

No investment then no return !

True, but if never told when wrong, they will also never learn anything. That is also why the "Lose Face" concept (and Thais hiding behind that) is a load of BS, because it is actually keeping people from ever learning anything.

Your reply demonstrates exactly why some people have a problem .

Get yourself educated and begin to appreciate the values and complexities of cultural issues.

Enabling people is about more than "telling them" when wrong.

Is the "big boss" always right ?

It doesn't matter if you spend a long time educating yourself on Thai culture. I firmly believe the main problem is that Thai face is not logical in the business world, it just doesn't work. Coupled with the rampant nepotism and cronyism mentioned throughout this thread and what you end up with is a team of people who are likely not qualified to do the job and are just a drain on the financial resources of the company.

This results in the good people that are there carrying the extra load to try and keep the business on the straight and narrow. Sooner or later tempers fray, people get frustrated and people get upset and "lose face",, then it gets worse.

I have seen this many times, it is not uncommon. The reality is that Thailand needs to wake up if it wants to compete. It has had the benefit of wealthier countries throwing business at them in order to reduce margins and improve profits (exactly the same as china) but that won't last forever. They have to be great to compete or they will lose eventually.

I have been working in Thailand for nearly 2 years now. The situation is such that instead of putting all of the business through the Thai company i am moving some back to a Western (EU) company,, why? simply because it may be an extra 2% but I can trust that everything is done on time, every time (nearly) and the qualify is right. I know i am not alone in this thinking. Sometimes the slightly lower cost is more then offset in dealing with all of the problems and the reputation issues you face when the end product is late or has problems.

In summary, it is not for everyone else to learn and adjust to Thai culture, it is for Thailand to adjust to International business standards.

Good luck with dealing with this, just remember you can't fix it on your own.

[DogNo1]

Well, despite the talk about the harsh relationships in business in Japan, a smooth working climate is the norm and personal confrontations are avoided. Employees are very rarely fired. All of the comments so far have related to you and your employee as individuals. I recommend that you consider the morale of the group. Groups in Asia, in general, are not as permeable as groups in Western countries. I would like to recommend that you be cheerful and pleasant to the employee that you disciplined and that if you later find that it is advisable to remove her for the good of the company,try to do it in a way that is least harmful to her. The issue should not be your ego and ensuring that the employees have the proper fear of you. You must consider the covert audience of your behavior. In my experience, you can complain and criticise if it is seen as reasonable by the group (your employees, your family and whoever else) and you do it in a reasonable and calm way. As an old friend of mine once said, "In Asia, if you lose your cool, you lose."

[gp2002]

Whatever!!

Thais yell and scream at each other, as well as scream at us, all the time. But if a Foreigner does it then it's a big taboo.

[thailiketoo]

It doesn't matter if you spend a long time educating yourself on Thai culture. I firmly believe the main problem is that Thai face is not logical in the business world, it just doesn't work. Coupled with the rampant nepotism and cronyism mentioned throughout this thread and what you end up with is a team of people who are likely not qualified to do the job and are just a drain on the financial resources of the company.

This results in the good people that are there carrying the extra load to try and keep the business on the straight and narrow. Sooner or later tempers fray, people get frustrated and people get upset and "lose face",, then it gets worse.

I have seen this many times, it is not uncommon. The reality is that Thailand needs to wake up if it wants to compete. It has had the benefit of wealthier countries throwing business at them in order to reduce margins and improve profits (exactly the same as china) but that won't last forever. They have to be great to compete or they will lose eventually.

I have been working in Thailand for nearly 2 years now. The situation is such that instead of putting all of the business through the Thai company i am moving some back to a Western (EU) company,, why? simply because it may be an extra 2% but I can trust that everything is done on time, every time (nearly) and the qualify is right. I know i am not alone in this thinking. Sometimes the slightly lower cost is more then offset in dealing with all of the problems and the reputation issues you face when the end product is late or has problems.

In summary, it is not for everyone else to learn and adjust to Thai culture, it is for Thailand to adjust to International business standards.

Good luck with dealing with this, just remember you can't fix it on your own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ASEAN_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

Thailand has been competing for a long time and has done very well. Perhaps you need to check out the GDP statistics of the ASEAN countries listed above.

[thailiketoo]

Whatever!!

Thais yell and scream at each other, as well as scream at us, all the time. But if a Foreigner does it then it's a big taboo.

Can white people use the same words that black people use when screaming at one another? Just saying....

[gemguy]

Thank you for the comments, even the scathing ones.

Of course I know I was wrong but I don't think I will fire myself, not just yet anyway. But I think it has shown me that it is time for a break as this is not normally my style, hence the post.

Don't take it too serious....My wife is shouting at her staff things I would never imagine. Or second biggest competitors owner and manager is feared for his choleric shouting. It is common in Thailand.

Even more in China and in Japan it can happen that the boss even slap his staff.....

So all the peaceful culture thing isn't true.

I never shout and I never loose temper, I think it is poor management. But these who do often get things done faster than I.....

Edit: But we are a technical production company with mostly males and the southern ladies here are more male than most men.....When I hear one of them rising her voice I am going to hide in the bunker.....

It is difficult to work around the inept performance of some Thai workers..a lot actually.

The young girls and women far more so than the boys and men.

They are more or less childish including the childishness of this thing they call face.

A manager or company owner should never have to apologize rather you have a private talk with her and make her understand this is business and when someone makes a mistake you will be letting them know where the mistake lies and how it will be fixed.

You let them know if they can not do the job correctly then you will replace them.

You let them know if they can not accept criticism for their mistakes that cause a lot of problems then they are welcome to go work elsewhere.

You let them know if they can not accept the fact that they will be criticized for their mistakes ( if need be ) then they decide right now if they want to continue working at this company under the management of a foreigner.

Best to do this using another Thai person who can explain it properly in Thai language.

My Wife works with incompetent and childish Thai workers for the last 3 years and sometimes she lets them know how stupid their mistakes are because the mistakes they make are the same mistakes over and over again on top of the new mistakes they make.

None of what they are requested to do is rocket science and far from it yet they consistently make the same errors and mistakes over and over again...costing the company a lose of revenues or long delayed payments or a lot of complaints continually from clients and or partners within the company structure.

There is not one of them that does not have to be continually monitored and or helping them to finish the work they have been assigned.

Something that she can do in 2 hours takes the Thai workers 2 days...or worse yet they have to be reminded and prompted over and over and over again to do what they were asked to do 1 or 2 weeks before and even then it does not get done and my wife has to do their job for them...while they all say: I very busy

She has to commonly argue with the Thai staff in various departments to straighten out their mistakes and often enough go to the big boss or owners of the company and explain it to him or them and then slowly it gets straightened out the Thai way....for that time and instance. But then it starts all over again next week or next month relative to the cycle of billing or accounting or schedules needing to be met.

If the members think the Thais never shout at one another to get their attention and straighten out the mess that one or other workers created then you are wrong.

The saving face thing goes right out the window real fast when they are angry and or losing money....often enough...but maybe most members have never witnessed it.

She is Filipina by the way and let me put it this way:...The Thai workers make it easy for her to look absolutely brilliant while everyone knows she gets the job done with no excuses and or childish face saving behavior on her part.

All her bosses have repeatedly requested that she does not leave the company because if she does the department she handles would simply fail and they all recognize that.

One of the aspects that is disturbing is knowing that all these girls and boys are hired through the companies HR department ( a department that the wife has had plenty of arguments with before ) and they all come with university degrees and diplomas...yet none of them can perform satisfactorily relative to what they went to university for.

They are commonly confused about what needs to be done.

Not one of them can come to work and focus on the work on hand while I told my wife that is one of the things you will notice about working with the Thais in an office environment.

Their minds are elsewhere such as thinking about their next meal while they have Som Tum on their brain and what is for lunch or dinner and what they will do this weekend or this coming evening or family matters or boyfriend or girlfriend woes and problems and money issues while they play on their cell phones or computers for around 20 to 30% of the day while they go to the wash room for 20 minutes to 30 minutes at a time while they drop everything for lunch and quickly exit and basically try to do as little as possible while always saying: sorry,sorry ..I very busy, can not do...I very busy.

She also notices that they will focus on something for about one hour at the most and then they can not handle the stress and leave their desk and come back and sigh and bemoan the fact that the work is still there ( "My Sanuk" ) in front of them needing to be addressed while they feel hard done by actually having to work doing the work they are reluctantly having to perform.

Rather than get it over with they leave it for another day and I can only surmise they think the task they were assigned to perform and complete will just fade away and they will not not have to deal with it...but it does not go away of course while the wife has to get in their face and ask them again for the 5th time or more where is the paper work or documents I asked for last week and 2 times yesterday while they say once again:" I very busy", while feeling they are being pressured to much....( "Yung Muck" )

Where as the truth is they can not do anything more than 2 things at a time or they get a headache ( "Poowart Whoure" ) while believing they are being overly pressured and many of them actually cry and break down while some of them quit the job and look for a job where they can do as little as possible and get away with it.

Some girls have lasted 1 day and they decide the work load is too much and they quit while nothing about the work is considered difficult or overly challenging.

Everything they throw at my wife she handles well and completes her work load while the Thai staff is left fumbling around and struggling to complete the work that they are ( always, always ) way behind schedule on ..or having to correct over and over again until it is right before it can be passed down the line.

Anyhow I am telling her it maybe time to look for another job because the work load keeps on piling higher and higher while she ends up doing the work of the Thai staff that can never complete their work time or correctly without a number of repetitive mistakes.

.

Anyhow if you have to work with the Thais you will, no doubt about it, begin to develop a feeling of mental superiority.

[Kirikow]

Posted 2014-03-24 12:25:14

"Yes, today I committed the ultimate sin of losing it with a staff member in front of others. She also happens to be a family member. I know it causes a major loss of face but I didn't expect the following to happen:

I realised I shouldn't have shouted and asked for a quiet chat, partly to apologise and also to explain why I reacted as I did. Not only would she not speak to me, she took a cushion and just held it over her face so we couldn't even see each other!

Anyone else come across a reaction like this?"

A cushion over her face? Wow.... Just say she should get her act together and behave like a grown-up.Tell her this is life, she'll get used to it eventually..

It's no biggie

[cup-O-coffee]

Before the crew meeting, inform the employee that she will be apologizing to everyone for her poor performance at the crew meeting, or else she will no longer be employed.

At the crew meeting, and after the public apology for the poor performance is given, inform everyone else that that kind of performance will not be tolerated and will be grounds for immediate termination. Outline a few other rules and guidelines which you expect to be followed.

Have them all sign a document (containing those meeting notes) that they have all been warned and that they all acknowledge as understanding and agreeing to comply. Retain this document for the purpose of giving to the Department of Labor in the event they sneak off to them after being sacked, and lie about the reason for removal.

Thank them for the meeting and move on.

If all goes well, let it sink in for a week or two, and then invite them all to an after hours meal at a cheap noodle shop and thank them all for their good work.

This story is one example whereby admitting any kind of wrong (for your part) can and will be more destructive to the whole than to the parts which make up the whole. Parts can be modified, hammered back into place or replaced, but not the whole.

[gemguy]

She came to work for you because she was currently unemployed.

This means she was fresh out of school, unemployable, unconnected, unpresentable, stoopid, useless or all of the above.

She is under the mistaken impression that she need not relate to you or allow you to relate to her in any meaningful way.

What, exactly was her job description ??

What were the consequences of her mistake

OR

Is this more of an attitude problem, ie is she just waiting for an opening in another company ? First job out of school ?

Pulling a face anytime she's given a task ?

Facebooking, downloading Korean TV series (on your dime and your time) and burning CD's of them for her friends ?

Introducing viruses into your intranet or otherwise breaching security, when she should be working at her job ?

Failing to record details of customer enquiry ?

Chatting on "Line" rather than working or right in your face (instead of answering a direct question) ?

Listening to music and eating giggling, laughing and talking loudly at any and ALL hours of the day.

Chatting with friends on her mobile instead of answering calls.

Interrupting client calls to chat with friends.

Late for work ALL the time.

Distracting others who actually really want to focus on their jobs.

Using family gossip, racist disrespectful remarks, ridicule and exclusionary ritual to team-build other employees against your authority ?

All because she thinks that her "family connection" trumps any obligation she has to do anything but aggrandize herself ?

Many more . . . . . But you get the idea.

There's PLENTY you can do.

And you should do it.

Thais-style PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE acting out are a luxury no business can afford.

Put a mop, bucket, cleaning cloths, duster, spray bottle of cleanser, and (best of all) a nice copra TOILET BRUSH next to her desk along with the suggestion that it is really the most convenient place to store it.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

I like that approach also and I would do something like that to make a point rather than talk to a person who is not going to comprehend what you said or what you meant anyhow, as is usually the case, while it goes in one ear and out the other and most of what you say simply goes way over their heads anyhow and does nothing or very little to change the situation.

It reminds me of a foreign acquaintance I was talking with one time and he told me how his maid in his apartment building never cleaned the kitchen floor correctly leaving a greasy film and dirt on the floor while he told her many times that she performed her work adequately in other aspects but the kitchen floor was basically neglected.

Maybe he was being too picky but that is his privilege or prerogative anyhow as he is paying for the service.

He was British and ........well you know how the pain in the ass British can be all too often...ha ha

So after telling her many times she was not cleaning the kitchen floor correctly or adequately he decided to go out on to the street where there was a women and her young daughter he knew selling food on the street and told the mother he had 20 minutes of work for the daughter and he would pay her 200 Baht for her time explaining it was simply cleaning the floor but cleaning it well.

The mother said yes right away and he brought the young girl into the apartment while the maid was there and had the girl start to clean the floor thoroughly.

The maid immediately understood what was going on and quickly took over from what the young girl was doing while my acquaintance handed the young girl the 200 baht, as promised, right in front of the maid and then sent her on her way.

The point being: Often enough Action speaks louder than words while all too often is the only way to wake a person up.