Different Kinds Of Income Other Than Pensions

[Thaiquila]

Here is perhaps an interesting question.

Say you have income other than a pension and you want to use in lieu of the 800K baht Thai bank account to qualify for the one year visa extension.

For examples,

you have an ownership interest in a non- Thai company or corporation and have an income from it

you have an annuity which pays an annual payout

you own stocks which pay dividends, or bonds which pay interest

Now, as many know, if you are American, you can make a statement to the embassy about your income and that document can be used to prove your income (the embassy only requires your word).

On the Thai end, do they ask specifically about the TYPE of income, for example, pension?

If not, couldn't you just use these other types of income to qualify for the visa (in whole or part)?

[backflip]

I recently renewed my retirement visa with a "pension" form from the US embassy. In Immigration, they glanced at the letter, but no one asked about the exact source (for example: bond interest, 401K selloff) of the money.

[Thaiquila]

I recently renewed my retirement visa with a "pension" form from the US embassy. In Immigration, they glanced at the letter, but no one asked about the exact source (for example: bond interest, 401K selloff) of the money.

Interesting. When you say pension form from the embassy, can you be more specific? Does the form actually say the word "pension" on it? What is exactly involved in the statement to the US embassy?

[backflip]

Inside of the US residents' side of the embassy, there are a couple wooden racks of various forms. The one you're interested is "pension" or "income" - I don't remember. If you have any questions, a person @ the window can steer you to it. You'll fill it in, sign it, and give it to the person @ the window. You'll be directed to the cashier, and pay 1200THB, to have the form notorized. You'll take the cashier's receipt back to the window, and you'll get a notorized form. That, your bank book, and a slew of other papers is needed to renew your visa. I've always found that Thai Immigration was easiest to navigate early in the morning, early in the week. If you get there early on Monday - assuming all of the forms are in order - you should be out in 30 minutes. If you insist on waiting until 2PM on a Friday afternoon, bring a book, and a snack!

[hereforgood]

I recently renewed my retirement visa with a "pension" form from the US embassy. In Immigration, they glanced at the letter, but no one asked about the exact source (for example: bond interest, 401K selloff) of the money.

Interesting. When you say pension form from the embassy, can you be more specific? Does the form actually say the word "pension" on it? What is exactly involved in the statement to the US embassy?

The Form you refer to asks how much money you are getting from the Government or other sources and the lady there did not want to see any verification of it as well.

[Thaiquila]

I recently renewed my retirement visa with a "pension" form from the US embassy. In Immigration, they glanced at the letter, but no one asked about the exact source (for example: bond interest, 401K selloff) of the money.

Interesting. When you say pension form from the embassy, can you be more specific? Does the form actually say the word "pension" on it? What is exactly involved in the statement to the US embassy?

The Form you refer to asks how much money you are getting from the Government or other sources and the lady there did not want to see any verification of it as well.

That might be an important detail. Money from the government would pretty much be social security "pension" for most people getting anything from the government. Are people who are getting private company pensions using another form, the "income" form mentioned above?

Of course, what I am getting at is that can you in all honesty fill out some kind of form at the embassy, and then present it to Thai immigration without anything on the letter specifically indicating what kind of income it is?

Hmmm, OK, I reread the above posts, still a bit confused, but assuming you can fill out some kind of form at the embassy, is there anything on the letter you get from the embassy stating what kind of income it is, in which case, if it was anything other than social security or pension, would be a red flag for Thai immigration. Also, on the form for the US embassy, do they ask you to specifiy the TYPE of income source you are claiming?

Edited June 4, 2006 by Thaiquila

[stoneman]

Hmmm, OK, I reread the above posts, still a bit confused, but assuming you can fill out some kind of form at the embassy, is there anything on the letter you get from the embassy stating what kind of income it is, in which case, if it was anything other than social security or pension, would be a red flag for Thai immigration. Also, on the form for the US embassy, do they ask you to specifiy the TYPE of income source you are claiming?

Maybe I can help you understand...Assuming you are a US citizen, you go to the ACS section at the Embassy and you complete a preprinted affidavit in which you state your total monthly income from ALL sources (just fill in the blanks), without specifying or documenting the source. You pay a 1200 baht notary fee and then an Embassy official notarizes your affidavit and that is it...

The

[hereforgood]

Hmmm, OK, I reread the above posts, still a bit confused, but assuming you can fill out some kind of form at the embassy, is there anything on the letter you get from the embassy stating what kind of income it is, in which case, if it was anything other than social security or pension, would be a red flag for Thai immigration. Also, on the form for the US embassy, do they ask you to specifiy the TYPE of income source you are claiming?

Maybe I can help you understand...Assuming you are a US citizen, you go to the ACS section at the Embassy and you complete a preprinted affidavit in which you state your total monthly income from ALL sources (just fill in the blanks), without specifying or documenting the source. You pay a 1200 baht notary fee and then an Embassy official notarizes your affidavit and that is it...

The

Nothing to state where the income is coming from

[redwood13]

The form is simply in letter form. Applicant fills in his/her name, date and place of birth, passport number along with place of issue, date of issue and expiry date.

Form then states:

"He/she affirms that he/she receives in amount US$________every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

And the next paragraph is just a boiler plate request that Thai Immigration give assistance to the applicant in extending his/her current visa.

-redwood

[Thaiquila]

OK, if this is true, then it seems fair to assume that it would be OK and also even honest (assuming the income is real) to use any kind of income (including dividends, interest, and ownership profit distributions for owned US businesses, correct?

[OlRedEyes]

AFAIK as long as the income is from a foreign source there are no questions?

Even whether from a foreign source doesn't seem to be questioned. Just proof of account balance, in my experience.

[Thaiquila]

AFAIK as long as the income is from a foreign source there are no questions?

Even whether from a foreign source doesn't seem to be questioned. Just proof of account balance, in my experience.

Aren't you talking about something different here, qualification based on money in a Thai bank account, where you are supposed to prove foreign source?

[OlRedEyes]

AFAIK as long as the income is from a foreign source there are no questions?

Even whether from a foreign source doesn't seem to be questioned. Just proof of account balance, in my experience.

Aren't you talking about something different here, qualification based on money in a Thai bank account, where you are supposed to prove foreign source?

Retirement visa based on 800k in bank acc. On reread it seems you're asking about an income flow. Sorry.

Edited June 4, 2006 by OlRedEyes

[Thaiquila]

AFAIK as long as the income is from a foreign source there are no questions?

Even whether from a foreign source doesn't seem to be questioned. Just proof of account balance, in my experience.

Aren't you talking about something different here, qualification based on money in a Thai bank account, where you are supposed to prove foreign source?

Retirement visa based on 800k in bank acc. On reread it seems you're asking about an income flow. Sorry.

Thanks, but this is really a separate issue. Of course, you can qualify with 800K in a Thai bank transferred from abroad OR 800K in "pension" income documented with a letter from your embassy, or a combination of both totally 800K. In practicality, you also need some kind of Thai bank account even if pension meets 800K. The question I raise is about documenting your income and whether there is any problem with using non-pension income as a part way or full financial qualifier for the visa.

[OlRedEyes]

AFAIK as long as the income is from a foreign source there are no questions?

Even whether from a foreign source doesn't seem to be questioned. Just proof of account balance, in my experience.

Aren't you talking about something different here, qualification based on money in a Thai bank account, where you are supposed to prove foreign source?

Retirement visa based on 800k in bank acc. On reread it seems you're asking about an income flow. Sorry.

Thanks, but this is really a separate issue. Of course, you can qualify with 800K in a Thai bank transferred from abroad OR 800K in "pension" income documented with a letter from your embassy, or a combination of both totally 800K. In practicality, you also need some kind of Thai bank account even if pension meets 800K. The question I raise is about documenting your income and whether there is any problem with using non-pension income as a part way or full financial qualifier for the visa.

This is why I got involved... They have never asked me for proof of where any income comes from.

[Thaiquila]

Yes, for bank transfers into Thailand, they wouldn't be interested in how the money got into your foreign bank account, only that the foreign money was transferred into Thailand. However, it is my understanding that for a retirement visa extension, the intention of the policy of using income as a qualifier so you don't have to show 800K in a Thai bank, is that the income you are documenting from your embassy is supposed to be some kind of pension, government or private. So the possible problem I see with trying what I am talking about (using non pension income to avoid having to show an 800K balance) is that technically they don't want you to use non-pension income for that, and maybe trying to do that would backfire.

[stoneman]

" So the possible problem I see with trying what I am talking about (using non pension income to avoid having to show an 800K balance) is that technically they don't want you to use non-pension income for that, and maybe trying to do that would backfire."

You seem to have a real hang up about this non pension income...Is there some reason for this?...I have a retirement visa and I have ALL non-pension income from interest on bonds to rental income to farm income....When it comes time to renew, I will add it all up, make a conservative estimate and get my affidavit from the US embassy and renew my retirement visa... If they want to check, I can certainly document everything, but no one has ever questioned it..

[tomallison]

For retirement extension I show 800k plus in thai bank. Never any questions about where or how the money got there. End of story.

[tomallison]

For retirement extension I show 800k plus in Thai bank account. Never any questions about where from or how the money got there. End of story.

[ernieK24]

Here are the facts.....plain and simple. I just extended three weeks ago, at the Pattaya Immigration office, in Jomtein. You HAVE TO DO the following.:

Make a money transfer to a Thai bank, from a foreign account. I used Bangkok bank, the choice is yours. NO MATTER HOW MUCH PENSION INCOME YOU HAVE, IMMIGRATION WANTS TO SEE THE BANK ACCOUNT...! Just before you go for your extension you will have to go to the bank where you hold the account and tell them you need a letter to immigration for extending your visa. It's a pre-printed form, they need your passport with the visa stamp in it, which they will copy, and your passbook of course, and in about ten minutes you'll have your letter from the bank, signed by the bank officer. It cost me 200 baht, (that seems to be the going rate). Then go get the letter copied along with your passport, and your bankbook, making sure to copy the FIRST page and all the pages with entries. It wouldn't hurt to make a couple extras, the service counter at Carrfour on Central Road in Pattaya only charged one baht a copy. I also used the BKK bank branch at Carrfour to open my account. (Plan on standing in line for awhile, it's a small branch with only two people working there). I suggest you get the letter the day or so before you go for your extension, it has to be timely.

In addition you will need a letter from a doctor, or a clinic. Right across the street, and up a little, from Carrfour on Central rd. in Pattaya, there is a clinic. I went in, with my lady as an interpreter, and told the gentleman I needed a letter for immigration stating that I did not have any of the five dreaded diseases, (I forget what they were). The gentleman pulled out a form, asked my lady, in Thai, if I was healthy, or words to that effect, looked at my passport, and visa, copied the number down on the form, along with my name, etc.....and handed it to me. Cost.....200 baht. No examination, no check-up........no nuthin'.....just the 200 baht. The form was written in Thai so I don't know WHAT it said, but I assumed it was what I needed, and it was.

Next, The American Embassy. It's crowded.....there's no place to park, I suggest you take public transportation, or a cab. A friend dropped my lady and I off, drove to a shopping center, went inside and waited till we called her on the cell phone that we were outside waiting for her. They will make you check your camera and cell phone at the entrance.

Inside there are two windows. The lines were very short, two or three, I got in line and asked for the form I needed, then went into the adjoining room and filled it out. Basically it asks you to enter your monthly income, and at the bottom. the total amount. It's self explanatory and very simple. I took all the w-2 forms, SS forms for the current year, and past three years.....she didn't ask for any of that. I handed in the filled out form, she looked at it and instructed me to go have a seat and she would call me. I fudged a little bit, by adding my medicare payment to the total ss amount, but not one word was said. I didn't really need to, my income is quite a bit over the minimum. I expected a long wait because the room was really crowded, but in less than ten minutes the same lady called my name, I went to the window and she asked me if the statements on the form I filled out were the truth to the best of my knowledge, to which I answered yes maam. She had me sign the letter from the embassy stating that I was a U.S citizen, with xxxx amount of income every month from the United States Government and/or other sources. It goes on to say he/she is applying for an extension of a current Thai visa and any assistance you can provide.......etc.

I signed it in her presence, she signed it, stamp dated it and that was that. 1200 baht...

Make one, or two copies of the original. Keep the original for next year, they will accept a copy but they want to see the original.

Now you're ready to go to the Thai Immigration. The one on soi 5 in Jomtein was a snap, after I got everything together it took less than a half hour, but wherever you go, go Monday early.

They shuffle you around between three different immigration officers, mostly women, but they were very polite, and most helpful.........cost 1900 baht for the extension. And you have to report back every 90 days to report your status, address, and I suppose, the fact that you are NOT working, cause that's a NO-NO.

If you plan on leaving the country and returning anytime before your visa expires nine months from that date you will have to have a "re-entry" permit. To leave without a re-entry would mean you would have to leave the country and start the whole visa process again, from the start. The cost of a re-entry permit varies depending on how many re-entries you wish.

Sure hope this helps, it took me a long time to write it, and if I've left anythng out, I'm sure someone will correct me. Good luck.....and enjoy your life. ErnieK

[Thaiquila]

Ernie, thank you very much for writing that, I am sure it will be very useful to a lot of people!

One of your statements:

NO MATTER HOW MUCH PENSION INCOME YOU HAVE, IMMIGRATION WANTS TO SEE THE BANK ACCOUNT...!

I think may be misunderstood. Yes, many people have said that even if you can show income letter from the embassy over 800K, yes, you still do need to show a Thai bank account of SOME reasonable amount of money, for example 200K baht. However, your statement implies that if your income statement from your embassy shows over 800K, you ALSO need to show a balance over 800K in your bank account, and I believe that is incorrect!

[briley]

Would be interesting to build up a list of how ameniable embassy's are.

US seems willing to issue a 'pension' letter if you say you have X baht a year and no proof.

I know that the UK asks for evidence of income from any source to issue a pension letter, but make no checks.

Believe that Australia actually checks on you evidence!

What do the other embassy's do?

[Thaiquila]

" You seem to have a real hang up about this non pension income...Is there some reason for this?...I have a retirement visa and I have ALL non-pension income from interest on bonds to rental income to farm income....When it comes time to renew, I will add it all up, make a conservative estimate and get my affidavit from the US embassy and renew my retirement visa... If they want to check, I can certainly document everything, but no one has ever questioned it..

You are a smart cookie.

Busted, yes, I was being obtuse, because the core of what I am really worried about is this. Say, for example, your NON-PENSION income does indeed involve some active WORKING from your location in Thailand. For examples,

-- trading stocks from your computer in your Thai condo

-- working online in your Thai condo on details about your US based rental business

-- managing and working on an active US based LLC or corporation online from your Thai condo

-- anticipating a sale and capital gain from stocks you already own during the year and claiming that estimate as income (this is more of a passive income example)

We all know lots of us are running online businesses in Thailand that have foreign bases and do not touch Thailand economically (in other words, all the banking for the business occurs outside Thailand and there are no Thai customers). So I assume many of those are on retirement visas. So are such people using such non passive income qualify for the "pension income" part of the financial qualification for a retirement visa extension? Because if so, don't you all see the possible problem? It isn't pension income and it involves work in Thailand.

In other words, not all PASSIVE income (such as interest and bonds) but income you are still deriving from ACTIVE WORK in Thailand (though having nothing to do with Thailand), which we all know is technically verbotten for a retirement visa extension.

Now, it seems rather clear that the US embassy does not require explanation or documentation, and Thai immigration will accept a letter from the US embassy, but are there imaginable scenarios where Thai immigration is going to ask for more than the letter, in other words specific proof other than the generic letter of the income claimed, might Thai immigration ask how the income derived (and for proof other than the letter of same)?

Edited June 4, 2006 by Thaiquila

[stevehaigh]

it seems to me the US embassy has opened up a nice loophole for people who want a retirement visa but don't have 800k. just tell them you have income in the US and they'll sign off on it. am i getting this right?

i guess if thai immigration figures this out, they could ask for additional documentation like a US tax return maybe?

what about marriage extension? will a letter from the embassy reduce the 400k in the bank requirement there too?

[Thaiquila]

it seems to me the US embassy has opened up a nice loophole for people who want a retirement visa but don't have 800k. just tell them you have income in the US and they'll sign off on it. am i getting this right?

i guess if thai immigration figures this out, they could ask for additional documentation like a US tax return maybe?

what about marriage extension? will a letter from the embassy reduce the 400k in the bank requirement there too?

I actually think this is a harsh way of looking at this.

You are telling the embassy your income. If you lie, you are lying to your own government, something most people wouldn't be thrilled to do. I still think the issue is the grey area about type of income, source of income, and whether working on your computer in Thailand on a a non-Thai based business really constitutes "working" in Thailand.

Edited June 5, 2006 by Thaiquila

[ernieK24]

Ernie, thank you very much for writing that, I am sure it will be very useful to a lot of people!

One of your statements:

NO MATTER HOW MUCH PENSION INCOME YOU HAVE, IMMIGRATION WANTS TO SEE THE BANK ACCOUNT...!

I think may be misunderstood. Yes, many people have said that even if you can show income letter from the embassy over 800K, yes, you still do need to show a Thai bank account of SOME reasonable amount of money, for example 200K baht. However, your statement implies that if your income statement from your embassy shows over 800K, you ALSO need to show a balance over 800K in your bank account, and I believe that is incorrect!

Draw your own summation if you will......I'm giving you the facts as they exist. I have more than enough pension income to qualify. Not a lot more, but more. I went to the Immigration office sans the letter. One of the female officers, with nothing to do at the time, asked to see my papers while I was waiting for my interview. She looked them over and advised me that I was missing the letter from the bank. I asked her if it was neccessary, (a stupid question). She said, "Yes, the first time you need the letter". I got back in the car, drove back to Pattaya. went to the branch bank of BKK bank, at Carrfour, and asked the young lady sitting at the tellers station for a letter for imigration.

She took my passport and bank book, made copies of both for their records, and about five minutes later she presented me with the confirmation letter from the bank, signed and certilfied.

Ten minutes total, including waiting in the very short line......200 baht. I then drove back to the Immigration office on soi 5 in Jomtein and presented my paperwork. In fifteen minutes I, and my future wife, were in the car, heading for home.....two very, very happy people.

I am told that the reason they want to see the bankbook is to veryify that you are dipping into it periodically to support yourself in Thailand, and not working. Now you take it from here, with your commentary. I'm not a "fancy-schmantzy"....just an 82 yr. old, retired electrician from California who just recently went through what I thought was going to be a harrowing experiences, which actually turned out to be not too bad at all. The worst part of it all was the long drive into BKK and the crowded American Embassy, but there were people along the way to help you out.

All, or any part of this post, may be reproduced, published, or used in ANY way that will help some poor soul over the bumps in the road. Hope I've helped someone.....ErnieK

[Thaiquila]

Thanks again Ernie. Who could doubt your story? Not me!

However, I wouldn't want people to get the idea that they if they can show embassy proof of 800K pension, that they ALSO have to show an 800K Thai bank account balance. Showing the bank letter is a separate issue than the required AMOUNT in the bank, and it is understandable.

[ernieK24]

Thanks again Ernie. Who could doubt your story? Not me!

However, I wouldn't want people to get the idea that they if they can show embassy proof of 800K pension, that they ALSO have to show an 800K Thai bank account balance. Showing the bank letter is a separate issue than the required AMOUNT in the bank, and it is understandable.

I guess I failed to say that if you have the required amount of pension income.....approx 65K a mo., (based on 40 baht to the dollar, it's right at 38 now.....and falling), you do not, repeat, DO NOT

need 800K in a Thai bank account. It is my understanding that Thai immigration wants to see a reasonable amount in an account, say 50K or so, to assure them that you can meet living expenses, and not be a burden to the state, (like a backpacker for instance), and not working illegally, without a work permit, and taking a job away from a Thai citizen. I think that applies to almost every country in the world.............EXCEPT THE USA of course.....if your name is "Jose",

and you know how to pick cabbage and handle a shovel, and roll a "joint" with one hand. Cheers