Business Start Up / Work Permit

[PercyinOz]

Hi everybody,

Ok, so this is my situation, I am a Australian married to a Thai and we are thinking about moving permanently from Australia to Bangkok (wife is homesick). When we make the move I intend to enter the country on a non immigrant 0 visa (3 months) then apply for the extension based on 400k THB in a bank account.

However I am still fairly young (39 years old) and want/need to work still. I have worked in the recruitment industry for all my adult life in the UK, Hong Kong and Australia.

Whilst I am somewhat confident that I could find an employer and get a work permit via that route I would much prefer to start my own recruitment agency/consultancy in Bangkok. I have been researching the implications of starting a business in Thailand and am starting to become a bit overwhelmed / confused with some of the conflicting information out there.

I'd like some clarity on the following please?

1. I trust my wife implicitly so is there any benefit to letting her set up the company in her name then employing me rather than me being a director / shareholder?

2. In order to get a work permit for me what is the deal with the required 4 Thai employee's? To get the work permit renewed do I have to evidence that they have been paid a salary or can you get by with just making the social security payments. If not what is the minimum salary per employee per month that you are required to pay?

3. Can my wife count as an employee even if she is a director of the company.

If needs must then I guess I could find 4 Thai employess but I am kinda over management and training staff and would ideally like to operate as a one man band (i.e. small serviced office, me, 1 telephone, 1 PC).

Is what I am trying to achieve possible in a legal / compliant sense?

Any tips or advice would be greatly welcomed.

Thanks,

PercyinOz

[ubonjoe]

In my opinion the best option is to set up a partnership (51/49) with you wife. It will need to have registered capital of 1 million baht to get a work permit since you are married to a Thai.

You could then be managing partner or just a partner.

The number of employees needed will be dependent upon which work permit office you have to use. Many still allow for two employees if married to a Thai.

You wife can be one of the employees.

I suggest you down load this A Business Guide to Thailand (English) (2014) from the BOI. It has a lot of useful info about company formation, taxes, work permit and etc.

[samran]

There might also be avenues under the Thai Australia FTA

[guavagirl]

If you are married to a Thai you only need 2 Thai employees and if your wife owns a piece of the company she can not be one of the employees. When you renew your WP you only have to show that you have paid their Social Security.

[PercyinOz]

Thanks Guavagirl...when renewing the WP does the number of Thai employees jump to 4? Still a bit confused ubonjoe says wife can be employee but you say she can't?

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[Noi657]

What % of wages is social security paid? Or is this a set amount?

[ubonjoe]

If you are married to a Thai you only need 2 Thai employees and if your wife owns a piece of the company she can not be one of the employees. When you renew your WP you only have to show that you have paid their Social Security.

This is another thing that will entirely depend upon the office where you apply for the work permit.

I have seen no rules that say that an owner cannot be counted as an employee.

Even the two employee rule is not etched in stone from what I seen. There have been reports that the regulations were changed in late 2010 or early 2011 that eliminated the 2 employee rule when married to a Thai. The new regulations were never made public so I have not seen a copy anywhere.

[MRTHAIBRI]

Have a look at this site. It will answer most of your questions. I will be doing a similar thing to you in 2015. No matter what uneducated advice you receive always talk to a reputable Law Firm. I have used Siam Legal in BKK for Visas etc. They can sort everything out for you. It's worth the money in the long run. Remember it's Thailand not Australia. Things change all the time and you don't want to be an Aussie doing the wrong thing in a foreign country.

http://www.boi.go.th/upload/content/AW_BOI-BusinessGuide2014-20130905-web_36759.pdf

This is a Thai Gov website.

[Fraserman]

As per my case, I already set up a ltd company with my Thai wife, registered capital 2mTHB.

Now we wanted to apply for a working permit for myself.

The Immigration Office in the South of Thailand (Kantang) claimed, foreigner married to a Thai must still employ 4 Thai staff. My wife pointed out, 2 Thais should be sufficient to employ (excluding her) since the foreigner is married to a Thai. But the immigration officer said, we should show him the law where it is mentioned that only 2 instead of 4 staff are needed.

Therefore my question: Does anybody know, which paragrah in the Thai law mentiones about the minimum number of Thai empolyees for a ltd company who wants to employ a foreigner, which is also the share holder of the company? If not mentioned, what else could I do -apart from hiring 4 Thais-?

By the way, no issues with the department in charge of issuing the work permit. But they pointed out, it is up to the immigration office whether the WP is finally granted.

Would be great if anybody could help.

Cheers

Fraserman

[thepool]

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As per my case, I already set up a ltd company with my Thai wife, registered capital 2mTHB.

Now we wanted to apply for a working permit for myself.

The Immigration Office in the South of Thailand (Kantang) claimed, foreigner married to a Thai must still employ 4 Thai staff. My wife pointed out, 2 Thais should be sufficient to employ (excluding her) since the foreigner is married to a Thai. But the immigration officer said, we should show him the law where it is mentioned that only 2 instead of 4 staff are needed.

Therefore my question: Does anybody know, which paragrah in the Thai law mentiones about the minimum number of Thai empolyees for a ltd company who wants to employ a foreigner, which is also the share holder of the company? If not mentioned, what else could I do -apart from hiring 4 Thais-?

By the way, no issues with the department in charge of issuing the work permit. But they pointed out, it is up to the immigration office whether the WP is finally granted.

Would be great if anybody could help.

Cheers

Fraserman

Immigration officers do not issue work permits and are not involved in the process !

[ubonjoe]

Immigration has nothing to do with work permits and should have no say in its issuance. The only time that immigration would need to even know about the number of Thai employees would be if you were applying for an extension of stay based upon working. Those rules do say 4 employees.

The rules for getting a work permit are in a ministerial regulation the only copy of those I have seen are dated 2004.. It is my understanding that those regulations were changed in late 2010 or early 2011 but were never made public. It has been said that the 2 employee rule was eliminated in that change but I have seen no written proof of it.

[Fraserman]

Yes, thepool and ubonjoe, you are both right. And thanks for your quick reply!

The labor department pointed out that in the past, they issued the WP to a foreigner and -as you say, ubonjoe- by applying for an extension of stay with the immigration office, they did not grant an extension, because the foreigner did not employ 4 Thais.

So, any suggestion, what I could do?

Cheers

Fraserman

[ubonjoe]

You can apply for an extension of stay based upon marriage to a Thai. Even if using income from the business to get it there is no requirement to have 4 Thai employees. Just your tax payments and work permit.

Only an extension based upon working under clause 2.1 of the police order requires the 4 Thai employees.

[thepool]

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Yes, thepool and ubonjoe, you are both right. And thanks for your quick reply!

The labor department pointed out that in the past, they issued the WP to a foreigner and -as you say, ubonjoe- by applying for an extension of stay with the immigration office, they did not grant an extension, because the foreigner did not employ 4 Thais.

So, any suggestion, what I could do?

Cheers

Fraserman

As you are married to a Thai and living in Thailand you are either in possession of a Visa or an extension of stay based on marriage.

Either allows application for a WP to be made !

You must meet the requirements for the WP, immigration has nothing to contribute.

[Fraserman]

I am on an an extension of stay due to married to a Thai.

To make sure, my understanding is correct, the WP, I can get based on the extension to stay due to married to a Thai (type of visa must not be changed after I got the WP). And once, my marriage visa is expired and I want to extend by one year, I apply again for an extension of stay due to married to a Thai, right?

Is my understanding also correct that the immigration cannot refuse my extension of stay due to married to a Thai, even they might now that I am having a WP, my own ltd and not employing 4 Thais?

But do we then need to employ any Thai at all for my WP based on extension of stay due to married to a Thai, if we are both the shareholders of the ltd? I am asking, because the labor department did not even request to employ a certain amount of Thai people. Only the immigration department requested 4 Thais but if they have nothing to say in case I am on a marriage visa, then no need to go into further discussions with them...

Cheers

Fraserman

[ubonjoe]

Getting a work permit changes nothing for your extension of stay or if you have a multiple entry visa. Unless you are using your income (40k baht) from the business for the extension you do not even have to show immigration your work permit.

It is up to the work permit office as to what they require to issue you a work permit. Every office can have their own policies or interpretations of the rules.

[thepool]

I know nothing about the rules and regulations associated with the issue of a WP

However, the extension of stay based on marriage (it is not a visa) can be renewed for as long as you meet the qualifications for the extension.

Having an extension of stay based on marriage allows the holder to work.

Immigration are not interested in whether you work or not unless an application for an extension of stay based on work is applied for.

My advice is for you to separate the issues of the extension of stay and work permit. In your case they are unrelated.

[Fraserman]

Thanks a lot to both of you guys, thepool and Ubonjoe!! Your comments and advices were VERY helpful!

I will go ahead with the applicatoin of WP and as for the immigration, I will separate the issues of WP and extended stay. I will not show any income from the business to immigration but only the required amount of 400k for 2 montsh in my bank account.

I will report back once WP is issued or in case more issues come up.

Cheers

Fraserman

[PercyinOz]

Please report back Fraserman, interested to hear how you get on.

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[Fraserman]

yes, PercyinOz, I will report back.

Cheers

Fraserman

[digitalchromakey]

Thanks Guavagirl...when renewing the WP does the number of Thai employees jump to 4? Still a bit confused ubonjoe says wife can be employee but you say she can't?

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Whether the wife as a director can be considered as a Thai employee also varies from area to area.

No, if the local labour office allows 2 Thai Employees at formation, then this can definitely continue year on year, but they may expect to see the company growing at some point, perhaps if there is evidence in the annual company accounts.

Note that if you/your wife are company directors, then you both loose any right to Thai Social Security/State Health Provision and are also excluded from making contributions.

All in all a bit random.

As you are outside of Thailand, I suggest you form a business plan based on worse case - remember that the employees can be cleaner, maid, receptionist all on jobs that do not pass the tax threshold, so look at 4x monthly social contributions based on minimum wages, plus the annual start of year company social payment for 4x employees on minimum salary.

[digitalchromakey]

I know nothing about the rules and regulations associated with the issue of a WP

However, the extension of stay based on marriage (it is not a visa) can be renewed for as long as you meet the qualifications for the extension.

Having an extension of stay based on marriage allows the holder to work.

Immigration are not interested in whether you work or not unless an application for an extension of stay based on work is applied for.

My advice is for you to separate the issues of the extension of stay and work permit. In your case they are unrelated.

You cannot work here without a WP.

It's not just the extension of permission stay, you also require the Work Permit as well, so there is a relationship, as you cannot get the WP issued without a suitable non immigrant 90 day visa entry/Extension of Permission to Stay.

I think what thepool intended to say was that you are eligible to qualify for Work Permit if you have an extension of permission based on Thai Family (in your case spouse).

[scorecard]

You say that you've worked in the recruitment field for many years, including in other countries.

Then I'm sure your well aware that Thailand will have it's own idiosyncrasies in regard to what Thai employers look for etc etc. And equally true Thai employees / job seekers see a picture / have expectations which has differences compared to either Australia or Hong Kong or wherever.

I wonder whether it might be worthwhile to seek employment, perhaps at a senior level in one of the many such agencies (Thai and foreign) who run such companies in Thailand to get some local insights before establishing your own agency.

[PercyinOz]

That is something I am strongly considering scorecard

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[Fraserman]

Sorry for my late reply.

Last week, I finally received my work permit. The officers visited our office (we have 2 staff) talked to my wife -not one single word / question to me- went back to their office and 2 weeks later, they said, I can pick up my work permit. According to my wife, they were very helpful and supported our request where ever they could. Paid officicial fee of 3,000THB for the work permit which is valid for 1 year. No requests had been made in terms of qty of empolyees etc. I am in Thailand under an "1 yr extension to stay" due to marriage.

The office we are having at the moment is under my wife's name. Our Ltd. - which hired me- does not have any other empolyees than me yet. But we will move our present 2 staff to the Ltd., once running project is finished. We do not have actual business yet under the Ltd. yet, but will do very soon in the near future.

As Ubonjoe pointed out correctly before - and I am VERY thankful for this VERY important piece of information - immigration has nothing to say in regards of the work permit. But of course, they do not tell you, even better, they requested us to employ 5 people...

The labour department pointed out before, one time, they issued a WP but immigration later on made it invalid by not issuing a visa to that person (I assume, this person was here under a working visa) since that person did not follow immigrations "request" of emplyoing 5 Thais in his/her Ltd. Not sure, mabye other unknown reasons were involved as well. That's why the Labour department was at the beginning reluctant to process my case due to the bad experience they had in the past.

Anyway, in conclusion, I suggest, first doing some business under one's partner's name. This is also a good test to see, whether the business one is planning to do is successful or not. After 1 year or so, apply for a work permit by holding an extenion of stay based on marriage. Once the officer want to see the office, one can already show the business set up and the labour department is easier convinced that this is a real company set up - not a fake one only to keep a foreigner in Thailand - a company, which will generate jobs and / or at least additional tax income for the government.

Cheers

Fraserman

PS: Forgot to add, of course, regardless what the rules are, at the End, it always depends on the officers in charge....

[ParadiseLost]

...

Is my understanding also correct that the immigration cannot refuse my extension of stay due to married to a Thai, even they might now that I am having a WP, my own ltd and not employing 4 Thais?

I would be careful with this line of thought - immigration can and will deny the extension if they feel like it, for any number of reasons.

Being married to a Thai woman does not give you any rights at all in Thailand. Nothing!

You will be informed that if you do not like it then you are free to leave - with your wife.

Sucks but true...

Most married men I know here live in limbo, not quite sure what to expect from immigration on their next visit. I personally gave up on extensions a few years back as I had to pay a 5,000 Baht 'sweetener' just to get them to take the application This happened 3 years running.

And, before it is asked - I am not working, or doing anything else which should require a bribe - that was just the norm. The same guy is still there, even though it was reported by several posters (Koh Samui). I presume it is still ongoing.

[ubonjoe]

...

Is my understanding also correct that the immigration cannot refuse my extension of stay due to married to a Thai, even they might now that I am having a WP, my own ltd and not employing 4 Thais?

I would be careful with this line of thought - immigration can and will deny the extension if they feel like it, for any number of reasons.

Being married to a Thai woman does not give you any rights at all in Thailand. Nothing!

You will be informed that if you do not like it then you are free to leave - with your wife.

Sucks but true...

Most married men I know here live in limbo, not quite sure what to expect from immigration on their next visit. I personally gave up on extensions a few years back as I had to pay a 5,000 Baht 'sweetener' just to get them to take the application This happened 3 years running.

And, before it is asked - I am not working, or doing anything else which should require a bribe - that was just the norm. The same guy is still there, even though it was reported by several posters (Koh Samui). I presume it is still ongoing.

Just because you had a bad experience with an immigration office that is well known to be one of the worst in the country does not mean it is the same at all offices. The 5000 baht fee for all extension there is well know as you said. The suggestion from a fellow mod of mine is that you put 1900 baht in an envelope and write 1900 baht fee on it.

I have done 6 extensions of stay based upon marriage and have never felt that I was living in limbo. I am not in the least bit concerned about being able to get my next extension..

Being married to a Thai does give you some privileges. One is being able to get an extension of stay at any age by just showing 400k baht in the bank or 40k baht income. This extension also allows you to work and get a work permit without having to jump through a lot of hoops to get an extension based upon working and loosing that extension if you loose your job.

[ParadiseLost]

...

Is my understanding also correct that the immigration cannot refuse my extension of stay due to married to a Thai, even they might now that I am having a WP, my own ltd and not employing 4 Thais?

I would be careful with this line of thought - immigration can and will deny the extension if they feel like it, for any number of reasons.

Being married to a Thai woman does not give you any rights at all in Thailand. Nothing!

You will be informed that if you do not like it then you are free to leave - with your wife.

Sucks but true...

Most married men I know here live in limbo, not quite sure what to expect from immigration on their next visit. I personally gave up on extensions a few years back as I had to pay a 5,000 Baht 'sweetener' just to get them to take the application This happened 3 years running.

And, before it is asked - I am not working, or doing anything else which should require a bribe - that was just the norm. The same guy is still there, even though it was reported by several posters (Koh Samui). I presume it is still ongoing.

Just because you had a bad experience with an immigration office that is well known to be one of the worst in the country does not mean it is the same at all offices. The 5000 baht fee for all extension there is well know as you said. The suggestion from a fellow mod of mine is that you put 1900 baht in an envelope and write 1900 baht fee on it.

I have done 6 extensions of stay based upon marriage and have never felt that I was living in limbo. I am not in the least bit concerned about being able to get my next extension..

Being married to a Thai does give you some privileges. One is being able to get an extension of stay at any age by just showing 400k baht in the bank or 40k baht income. This extension also allows you to work and get a work permit without having to jump through a lot of hoops to get an extension based upon working and loosing that extension if you loose your job.

My point was really that the immigration office/officer you deal with has uber power over you and could at their whim deny you an extension, or make life very difficult.

I agree with your points, but it still does not make me feel confident that just because I am married I have the right to anything here...

Even the WP process varies from office to office and you could be just as likely to run into a sticky situation, like the member who reported he had to have an office, with 4 uniformed employees at their desks to qualify. One million or two? Two employees or four? Next time it may/can/will be different - without any warning, or official police order.

My mistake with the Birdman of Koh Samui was to present a bank book with way more than the 400k required on my first application. Obviously he chooses his victims carefully and the message you get loud and clear is no bribe, no extension. No shame either.

[ubonjoe]

Just because you had a bad experience with an immigration office that is well known to be one of the worst in the country does not mean it is the same at all offices. The 5000 baht fee for all extension there is well know as you said. The suggestion from a fellow mod of mine is that you put 1900 baht in an envelope and write 1900 baht fee on it.

I have done 6 extensions of stay based upon marriage and have never felt that I was living in limbo. I am not in the least bit concerned about being able to get my next extension..

Being married to a Thai does give you some privileges. One is being able to get an extension of stay at any age by just showing 400k baht in the bank or 40k baht income. This extension also allows you to work and get a work permit without having to jump through a lot of hoops to get an extension based upon working and loosing that extension if you loose your job.

My point was really that the immigration office/officer you deal with has uber power over you and could at their whim deny you an extension, or make life very difficult.

The officer that you hand paperwork over to cannot deny your application. They can ask for more documents if they want to but there is even a limit to that.

The application is approved by a higher ranking officer than the one that takes you application. If denied you do have the right to appeal.by way of a petition.

From police order 777/2551.

4. In the case where an applying alien does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein, the alien must be notified of the non-permission order and must depart from the Kingdom within seven days from the date following the date on which the permitted period has lapsed.

If the alien wishes to seek reconsideration of the non-permission order under Paragraph 1 herein, he may submit one petition only in writing, stating the reasons and necessity, to a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector for which a written order accepting such petition must be issued first. The petitioner may submit the application together with supporting documents for consideration simultaneously. The reconsideration must be completed within the period of time stated in Paragraph 1. During the reconsideration, competent officers must stamp permission allowing the alien seven business days from the submission date of the petition for reconsideration to wait for the result.

[ParadiseLost]

Just because you had a bad experience with an immigration office that is well known to be one of the worst in the country does not mean it is the same at all offices. The 5000 baht fee for all extension there is well know as you said. The suggestion from a fellow mod of mine is that you put 1900 baht in an envelope and write 1900 baht fee on it.

I have done 6 extensions of stay based upon marriage and have never felt that I was living in limbo. I am not in the least bit concerned about being able to get my next extension..

Being married to a Thai does give you some privileges. One is being able to get an extension of stay at any age by just showing 400k baht in the bank or 40k baht income. This extension also allows you to work and get a work permit without having to jump through a lot of hoops to get an extension based upon working and loosing that extension if you loose your job.

My point was really that the immigration office/officer you deal with has uber power over you and could at their whim deny you an extension, or make life very difficult.

The officer that you hand paperwork over to cannot deny your application. They can ask for more documents if they want to but there is even a limit to that.

The application is approved by a higher ranking officer than the one that takes you application. If denied you do have the right to appeal.by way of a petition.

From police order 777/2551.

4. In the case where an applying alien does not meet the full qualifications stipulated by the criteria herein, the alien must be notified of the non-permission order and must depart from the Kingdom within seven days from the date following the date on which the permitted period has lapsed.

If the alien wishes to seek reconsideration of the non-permission order under Paragraph 1 herein, he may submit one petition only in writing, stating the reasons and necessity, to a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector for which a written order accepting such petition must be issued first. The petitioner may submit the application together with supporting documents for consideration simultaneously. The reconsideration must be completed within the period of time stated in Paragraph 1. During the reconsideration, competent officers must stamp permission allowing the alien seven business days from the submission date of the petition for reconsideration to wait for the result.

Without being pedantic - good luck with that...

First problem; finding 'a competent officer equivalent to or higher than inspector' and even if you do, getting 'a written order accepting such petition' should be a hoot...

The only thing you will be told is to leave the country and get a new visa, then start again.

It happened to me on my first extension, and no, I did not give them any attitude and my paperwork was in order. The problem I had was the money was only seasoned two months (as reported as required in TV) but they wanted three months. Only on that day, as the wind was blowing from the south I guess.

The only point I was trying to make in my first post was to address the OP's feeling that they cannot deny him the extension. Best be prepared for something to go wrong than to start arguing 'you have the right' to anything in this country - you have no rights.