Visa Runs

[Minburi]

I have a friend here in Bangkok and he is working teaching english in a nearby school but has to do border runs to keep his visa valid. Any ways we have this on going argument where my side is if you have to make the run to get a new stamp in your passport then you are working illegally in Thailand and with out the proper work permit.

Am i wrong in my thinking? Is my friend working illegally or not? I say he is because if everything was on the up and up there would be no reason to make the border run.

So does this make all these people working in Bangkok and Thailand and making the Visa runs illegal in the eyes of the law?

I would like to hear some opinions on this please.

[lopburi3]

If he has a work permit he can work. Nothing illegal about having to make visa runs because you can not meet the extension of stay requirements of immigration (income requirements based on your nationality in addition to much paperwork). This is normally done with a multi entry non immigrant B visa that allows stays of 90 days each.

That said, there are probably a number of visa runners who do not have work permits that are working illegally.

[Axel]

Whenever the permission to stay-date is changed you have to report to the labour dept. who happily, against a fee, adjust the validity of the WP.

[sriracha john]

I have a friend here in Bangkok and he is working teaching english in a nearby school but has to do border runs to keep his visa valid. Any ways we have this on going argument where my side is if you have to make the run to get a new stamp in your passport then you are working illegally in Thailand and with out the proper work permit.

Am i wrong in my thinking? Is my friend working illegally or not? I say he is because if everything was on the up and up there would be no reason to make the border run.

So does this make all these people working in Bangkok and Thailand and making the Visa runs illegal in the eyes of the law?

I would like to hear some opinions on this please.

Easy enough to settle the "argument" or "bet." Have him show you his work permit and his

non-immigrant visa.... by the way... if he's taking any wagers on this, I'll put 2,000 baht down on him having neither.

[Minburi]

He has neither so you would have won your 2000 baht

He is on a his latest 90 day visa. He has 10 concurrent stamps in his passport.

He is also being paid under the table as in no taxes.

He also says that the state has more important things to worry about other then him and as he stays out of the lime light and keeps a low profile so there is little chance that he will be picked up.(I have to agree with him on that)

But if caught it would be the IDC for him me thinks.

[sriracha john]

He has neither so you would have won your 2000 baht

He is on a his latest 90 day visa. He has 10 concurrent stamps in his passport.

He is also being paid under the table as in no taxes.

He also says that the state has more important things to worry about other then him and as he stays out of the lime light and keeps a low profile so there is little chance that he will be picked up.(I have to agree with him on that)

But if caught it would be the IDC for him me thinks.

Can't say I'm really surprised by my winning wager, but nice to have it confirmed. Thank you.

Actually it was a pretty safe bet as he fit the typical illegal, non-compliant teacher profile so much.

He really doesn't know how simple it is for him to be found out and then carted off... it takes so little.

Oh well... not all teachers are "educated."

[PeaceBlondie]

As lopburi3 points out, you can have a work permit and still need to do visa runs because you don't meet the income requirements.

But lopburi3, I keep hearing rumors that the income requirements don't apply to teachers, or English teachers, or English teachers in government schools.

The typical well-educated TEFLer without a major in education or English, such as I am, would never meet the income requirements in their first year or two or three or four.

Also, I'd add that you can have a great one-year visa, be employed over the table with a contract, and not have a work permit. Then you might be doing 90 day visa runs, as I did for two years. Followed by a flight to a first world country (or Malaysia, if you're lucky) to get another one year visa.

And then again, you might need a Teacher's License. And if you lose your job for no fault of your own at the end of the school year, you don't have a contract until the new year starts up, and the typical Thai school will wait a few months before helping you on these minor inconsequential legal matters, and then....and then...

[lopburi3]

There are lower income requirements for some occupations than the nationally amounts but believe there is sill a minimum so you still could face not meeting the extension requirements. But in every case one should check with immigration and try to obtain extensions of stay as it makes everyones life easier; rather than having to do visa runs/work permit extensions.

[astral]

Visa runs, per se are not illegal, but working without a permit is.

If the Labour Dept find out he will be arrested and spend time in the

Black Hole of Suan Plu before being deported.

[monochaser]

He has neither so you would have won your 2000 baht

He is on a his latest 90 day visa. He has 10 concurrent stamps in his passport.

He is also being paid under the table as in no taxes.

He also says that the state has more important things to worry about other then him and as he stays out of the lime light and keeps a low profile so there is little chance that he will be picked up.(I have to agree with him on that)

But if caught it would be the IDC for him me thinks.

I despise, I mean really despise people who do this shit

[sriracha john]

He has neither so you would have won your 2000 baht

He is on a his latest 90 day visa. He has 10 concurrent stamps in his passport.

He is also being paid under the table as in no taxes.

He also says that the state has more important things to worry about other then him and as he stays out of the lime light and keeps a low profile so there is little chance that he will be picked up.(I have to agree with him on that)

But if caught it would be the IDC for him me thinks.

I despise, I mean really despise people who do this shit

I wouldn't go so far as to say I despise them, but I think their numbers far surpass those in similar situations as to what PeaceBlondie and Lopburi3 describe.

Rather than despise them, I feel more pity for them as I don't think they fully appreciate neither the gravity of their actions nor the precarious nature of their continued existence in Thailand.

I would only add that the majority of what I would consider unsuitable teachers... for any number of reason whether it's English being their 3rd language... or whether their alcoholism impeded their ability to be effective teachers... or.. various other sundry reasons... anyway, the majority of these teachers I've encountered fall into this category as being without proper visas and proper work permits. Hence, my rather safe wager.

[PeaceBlondie]

Visa runs, per se are not illegal, but working without a permit is.

If the Labour Dept find out he will be arrested and spend time in the

Black Hole of Suan Plu before being deported.

Not really disagreeing, astral, but I personally know of a case where two farang went to the Labour dept. with their supervisor (a 20-year teacher there) and the MoL folks were ignorant, saying they'd never given a WP to a teacher, ever. He then gave them paperwork, an inappropriate OneStop book, and said he didn't even know where they should send the paperwork.

astral, you're not wrong about the risk, but many people don't realize how difficult it can be to play by the rules. That was probably a bizarre example, so how's this: a respected 99-year old school has been hiring farang teachers for countless years, and tells you up front they won't move one Thai muscle to make their teachers legal.

I might not believe these stories if I hadn't lived them.

Then there are teacher's licenses for those who don't teach at govt. schools. Not at all easy to get, but I think you need TL before you get work permit.

lopburi3, aren't the income/salary limits for Americans something like 50,000 baht per month? It takes 3 to 4 years to make that kind of money if you're good, and lucky.

[lopburi3]

The income levels are another factor and for most occupations quite high for those from developed countries but there are exceptions for some positions, teaching and reporters being several, where the extension can be granted at a lower income level. While I don't disagree that most doing the visa runs do not hold work permits there are some that do so we should not just assume. Even when they meet conditions many are just not aware there is a better way - unfortunately not everyone reads forums or is given correct information by those they are in contact with.

[p_brownstone]

What particularly angers me about the foreign teachers here with no Work Permit, Teachers Licence or proper qualifications is that they treat the job as just that – a job that has to be endured so they can stay in Thailand and enjoy the lifestyle here. (Well, as much as anyone can on the pittance which is the usual reward for teachers in Thailand). The vast majority have no real vocation for the work, let alone an interest in their pupils.

To me this is the real wrongdoing – they will never know the harm they inflict on their young charges.

I am approaching 60 years of age but still remember my first Primary Grade teacher with great affection and appreciation, she loved her work and, apparently effortlessly, instilled in me a love of learning which is with me to this day.

The itinerant foreign “teachers” who wash up here convey their feelings of disinterest and drudge to their pupils at an early age and implant the idea that learning is tedious and worthless. (I realise of course that many native Thai teachers have the same attitude, but that should not be used as an excuse - by anyone).

Patrick