Thai PM set to give defence against negligence charges

[Baerboxer]

all politically motivated

can you imagine Obama taken to court over Obamacare? or Thatcher over Poll Tax?

it's a farce wrapped up in an absurdity

Have any of Obama's family and friends made money from Obamacare?

Did any of Thatchers family or friends profit from the poll tax?

Did either Obamacare or poll tax projects incur unaccountable losses? Did either Obama or Thatcher or their representatives at ministerial level openly lie and contradict one another when speaking about these projects?

Different circumstances.

[almafudd]

Actually their corruption strategy is to setup an agency that investigates and prosecutes corruption.... NACC, done and dusted!

They're claiming she is negligent in not stopping corruption, but that's their job, if there was negligence, it was theirs.

They've made some allegations of corruption against others, but haven't proved them in court, so if the court says the claims are false, and it was not corruption, then how can she prove she was not negligent in not stopping things that didn't happen?

Surely they have to prove there was corruption first, before they can remove her from power for failing to stop it.

Also the timing is an issue, January 16th 2014, they decide to investigate her, and 31st March they're ready to indict her. Man that's fast. Even giving her a whole 3 days to read 280 pages of claims against her.

Of course they have to move fast, if they're to submit the claim to the Senate while the appointed part is the only part in power. That senate can then suspend her, while the prosecution proceeds, and they can put their neutral middle man in power.

AFP really have a good grasp of what's going on.

I don't think you know how the law works.

Each case brought before a court is judged on it's own merits.

Judges can use precedence if they want to - they don't have to.

It is their court room and they can do as they like so long as it is legal.

It could well turn out that Yinluck is guilty of being negligent and no one is ever charge with corruption!

Courts can take as long as they like to decide a case (or as little time as they like).

This is how the law works.

Where does it say this is against Thai law???

One reason why the NACC may have moved so quick (over two years!) maybe due to the large amounts of money involved in this case and the impact it is having on the Thai economy!

So stop your ranting incorrect posts and get over it!!

Not at all. The court doesn't come into it.

NACC's job it to prevent corruption, It takes them 1.25 years to find some, and maybe 2 year to prove it happened in a court (if it really did happen). Which they haven't yet done.

They then go and say "well why didn't you stop this a year ago, you must be negligent", yet that's not her job, it's their job, and they're claiming she should have been faster than them at their own job! A job which they haven't yet even finished!

The court doesn't come into it, because the Senate can suspend the PM on an allegation alone from the NACC. The case never needs to come to court, they remove her and as the only body in power, they can appoint one of Suthep own to run the country.

Yes it's about money, 500 billion baht's worth of rice can be sold for 821 billion baht at export. So 300 billion profit will ultimately go either to the government, or the the rice cartel. If Suthep sells it off at rice cartel market price and they export it, then he can blame PT for the loss and they become very very rich. If he leaves the scheme unchanged, he can't claim he 'reformed the scheme'.

You really don't get it do you?

How does the NACC prevent corruption? What powers do they have to achieve this??

THEY INVESTIGATE and then it's up to the senate to decide!!!

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT DH

[BlueNoseCodger]

The scheme, which paid farmers above market rates for their crop

Not really, it paid above the rice cartels price, but that price has always been held low by agreement between the rice middlemen.

They pay about 8000 baht a tonnes for the best quality paddy, which is equivalent to 11,111 baht per tonne of milled, which is then exported for 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne and it is then sold in Tesco UK for 80000+ baht a tonne equivalent (5kg = 8 quid).

The government replaced their cartel with a government agency, that pays 15000 baht a tonne paddy, equivalent to 20833 milled and exported at 37770 baht.

Abhisit's democrat price guarantee worked differently, it subsidied the rice cartel price to a minimum. It worked out to be 11500 baht per tonne of paddy (link) for the best grades. The big issue with the Democrats scheme was it let the cartel drive the buy price lower, and the government made up the difference so farmers still farmed.

The rice cartel loves the democrat scheme because it's more money in their pocket, they hate the government scheme because all that money that was theirs is handed to farmers and the government. The export agency the government set up, didn't get its exporting act together quickly enough, hence that gave them a chance to attack! Although we're back on track.

There is a WORLD RICE PRICE you dh - Thailand does not dictate that price the world market does

You do know other countries grow and sell rice don't you?? Thailand doesn't set the price the world market does

And when a country tries to manipulate the price you end up with what Thailand has today.

Research what you are posting and stop posting utter carp!

btw who are these rice mafia / cartels?

That is the export price, and Thailand is the top exporter even at those prices. Thai rice sells at a premium because it is the best. Thai Fragrant rice necessarily is grown in Thailand, hence the name, so it competes with all manner of long grain and other rices, and wins.

So you are now a rice expert? EVERY CROP GROWN IS A DIFFERENT QUALITY!! And with all the mountains of Thai rice sitting around the place, the quality is being lost with each passing second.

And for your information other countries grow Thai Fragrant rice - it is a type of rice

20-30 years storage life for rice. The 15k a tonne is for A grade Hom Mali with low moisture content. Thai Fragrant rice is Fragrant rice from Thailand, the actual type of rice is Hom Mali, Hom Pathumthani, etc. Others sell their product as "fragrant rice", or "Jasmine rice" or similar branding claims.

[Seastallion]

"Some cases see no progress because of a lack of documents but I have just been accused after a 21-day investigation and I was denied additional time to be prepared for the interrogation.''

Because, Madam, the evidence was so blatantly obvious that it was gathered so quickly.

The only thing I'll say in your favour is that full disclosure should have been made to you.

My only concern is that the refusal to disclose the evidence may make for grounds to acquit or appeal..

[Seastallion]

20-30 years storage life for rice. The 15k a tonne is for A grade Hom Mali with low moisture content. Thai Fragrant rice is Fragrant rice from Thailand, the actual type of rice is Hom Mali, Hom Pathumthani, etc. Others sell their product as "fragrant rice", or "Jasmine rice" or similar branding claims.

To be fair, I just bought a 22 kg sack of "Thai Jasmine Rice", product of Viet Nam....which is not to say that it's not illegal branding or copyright infringement.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Seastallion

[stoli]

Even though I am not a supporter of Yingluck, I do support he fully her quest to make sure that the farmer is subsidized to ensure that they can continue to provide. A country that puts it's farmers out of business will not survive. Every country in the modern world makes sure that farmers are able to survive, and give subsidies. Thailand just needs to put this cost in their budget, even if they need to raise taxes to do it. What good is a restaurant without an affordable product?

Being able to buy food is a basic right, and a necessity.

Edited March 31, 2014 by stoli

[dutchisaan]

The scheme, which paid farmers above market rates for their crop

Not really, it paid above the rice cartels price, but that price has always been held low by agreement between the rice middlemen.

They pay about 8000 baht a tonnes for the best quality paddy, which is equivalent to 11,111 baht per tonne of milled, which is then exported for 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne and it is then sold in Tesco UK for 80000+ baht a tonne equivalent (5kg = 8 quid).

The government replaced their cartel with a government agency, that pays 15000 baht a tonne paddy, equivalent to 20833 milled and exported at 37770 baht.

Abhisit's democrat price guarantee worked differently, it subsidied the rice cartel price to a minimum. It worked out to be 11500 baht per tonne of paddy (link) for the best grades. The big issue with the Democrats scheme was it let the cartel drive the buy price lower, and the government made up the difference so farmers still farmed.

The rice cartel loves the democrat scheme because it's more money in their pocket, they hate the government scheme because all that money that was theirs is handed to farmers and the government. The export agency the government set up, didn't get its exporting act together quickly enough, hence that gave them a chance to attack! Although we're back on track.

As normal you try to turn everything around. The price you quoted was for the high quality rice and ofcourse you think that all the rice that is stockpiled and slowly rotting away is of this high quality.

But with this statement you shoot yourself in your foot. So I have two questions for you.

1. If this, so called government, can make or is making so much money than please explain wy the rice farmers are not been paid?

2. And if they made all this money where did it go?

And please don't answer with your normal party line bs.

Thank you.

Edit

Sorry but what do you mean we are right back on track? Do you mean that the farmers haven't be paid yet and you are back on track because you don't give a sh*t about these rice farmers?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited March 31, 2014 by dutchisaan

[fab4]

With all the back and forth on this thread the main argument has been ignored. Can anybody who finds the rice subsidy scheme so corrupt and wants to see Yingluck impeached please explain to me why they regard the NACC's approach as not politically motivated particularly in light of their handling of abhisits case that's more than 5 years old?

They're so obvious, it's embarrassing. NACC = AEC, different era, same objectives, same bosses.

Edited March 31, 2014 by fab4

[binjalin]

Even though I am not a supporter of Yingluck, I do support he fully her quest to make sure that the farmer is subsidized to ensure that they can continue to provide. A country that puts it's farmers out of business will not survive. Every country in the modern world makes sure that farmers are able to survive, and give subsidies. Thailand just needs to put this cost in their budget, even if they need to raise taxes to do it. What good is a restaurant without an affordable product?

Being able to buy food is a basic right, and a necessity

sensible post amongst the yellow 'noise'

EC gives BILLIONS in farming subsidy and they don't have to go to court every five minuets

it's not about subsidy - it's about politics

[binjalin]

1. Why did the agency take more than five years to probe the case against Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva over the corruption allegation involving rice distribution and make no progress, while pressing charges against Yingluck after only 21 days?

2. Does the NACC want to bring about a swift prosecution against Yingluck by having a full NACC panel investigating the case instead of appointing a sub panel to do the job, as it normally does with other cases?

3. The NACC pressing charges of malfeasance and dereliction of duty against Yingluck shows that Yingluck had nothing to do with the corruption, so why is the agency pressing charges in the broad spectrum against her?

4. The NACC produced a 280-page document covering the charges against Yingluck and only three days before she is forced to make her defence statement. Is the time given to her too short?

5. Does the NACC carry out its duties fairly?

6. Why doesn't the NACC give Yingluck additional time to submit her defence statement, even though the NACC's decision in this case could result in her being suspended from duty?

No one wants to argue against these very fair points? non-political???

[Baerboxer]

This ia what happens when you go shopping and travelling around the world all the time - and do your brother's bidding all the time. The plan of being able to deny responsibility for everything has failed. Be honest! Did you really expect to be able to deny responsibility for the rice scam scheme for ever?

The flip side of that, is what happens if Suthep gets power? What does he do with the rice pledge stocks?

The current buy price is 15000 baht, and export price is 37770 baht. If Suthep continues to export that stock at 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne, then the scheme ultimately becomes very very profitable for government. On the other hand he supports the rice middleman cartel, what if he sells it back to them at their usual price of 11,111 (milled) or similar? Then the government takes a huge loss, and these rice middlemen get a huge windfall!

Before you vote for him , you might want to ask him his plan to reform the rice pledge scheme.

Strange that with your figures, the current bunch of criminals government can't make it profitable. Instead they ran a loss of 800 Billion. Why would that be ?

Totally correct.

He can quote prices all day long to try to support his glorious masters. It means absolutely nowt.

The reason she is in the dock is that a budget of hundreds of billions was provided at the start of each season. That budget has disappeared, or at least 600 to 800 billion baht has disappeared, which is why the farmers are no longer getting paid.

The money has gone from the coffers..... WHERE?????????

Irrespective of rice prices etc.

That money for that rice handed over, was sent to the rice scheme and has gone somewhere else. about 60% is missing.

Is it OK with you reds if the NACC asks where it is??? Or is Thailand YOUR country now or what?

You have a cheek to question the Thai courts, it have sod all to do with you.

I'm sure the erstwhile caretaker Finance Minister knows exactly where its gone. No mystery to him.

Whether he's going to tell, or maybe even tell a little white lie is anybodies guess. He's very quiet these days.

PTP do not like answering questions, being hold accountable or even challenged and criticized. They think winning an election gives them the right to do just what they please and that they are above the law. TRT, PPP, now PTP - same master, same thinker, same behavior. Not surprising.

Now they've pushed things too far, so their answer is to squeal everything is politically motivated and mobilize their private paramilitaries. The message is leave us alone or else.

Notice how they always verbally defend by accusing others. They never offer answers or transparency and definitely no opening the books!

There is no chance YL will attend. She has no idea what to say, how to answer questions or what's really been going on. She could study that document for 45 weeks let alone days and still be none the wiser.

[BlueNoseCodger]

This ia what happens when you go shopping and travelling around the world all the time - and do your brother's bidding all the time. The plan of being able to deny responsibility for everything has failed. Be honest! Did you really expect to be able to deny responsibility for the rice scam scheme for ever?

The flip side of that, is what happens if Suthep gets power? What does he do with the rice pledge stocks?

The current buy price is 15000 baht, and export price is 37770 baht. If Suthep continues to export that stock at 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne, then the scheme ultimately becomes very very profitable for government. On the other hand he supports the rice middleman cartel, what if he sells it back to them at their usual price of 11,111 (milled) or similar? Then the government takes a huge loss, and these rice middlemen get a huge windfall!

Before you vote for him , you might want to ask him his plan to reform the rice pledge scheme.

Strange that with your figures, the current bunch of criminals government can't make it profitable. Instead they ran a loss of 800 Billion. Why would that be ?

Your loss is fiction, a loss isn't realized unless the stock is sold below cost. So a stock bought at 15000/t (i.e. 21000/t milled) and sold at 37770/t turns out to be a profit. Whereas a stock sold back to the rice cartel at 11,111/t (milled), is then realized as a loss.

The trick the Democrats are using is

1) Claim the rice is all rotten and thus 15000 becomes zero. This claim is false, spoliage is just the usual and small.

2) Compare the price to the fake low cartel price, to claim an exaggerated loss will be realized. i.e. that it will be sold at 8000/t.

3) Block the funding via court and senate/EC/Bank, forcing the existing stock to be sold at domestic auction to fund the ongoing system, which then lets them claim that as the sale price, see 2).

Edited March 31, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[Stan7444]

all politically motivated

can you imagine Obama taken to court over Obamacare? or Thatcher over Poll Tax?

it's a farce wrapped up in an absurdity

If the Republicans in the states could find one flaw in Obamacare that they think is criminal they would try in a heart beat to impeach Obama. You could ask Bill Clinton about impeachment

yes but there is that process - not this bizarre jumping into Court every five minutes - that's not a justice system that's a 'playground' system of tit for tat

I do not for one minute believe Yingluck, personally, has sat down and thought out any corrupt strategy - has someone, below her, mis-managed? yes a high probability as Thai's are not known for their 'management' skills but any such mis-management should be challenged at election time (you know that strange process most countries use?)

To suggest Yingluck is corrupt is using a piledriver to smash a tomato

When will they grow up? reform the justice system number ONE

Actually their corruption strategy is to setup an agency that investigates and prosecutes corruption.... NACC, done and dusted!

They're claiming she is negligent in not stopping corruption, but that's their job, if there was negligence, it was theirs.

They've made some allegations of corruption against others, but haven't proved them in court, so if the court says the claims are false, and it was not corruption, then how can she prove she was not negligent in not stopping things that didn't happen?

Surely they have to prove there was corruption first, before they can remove her from power for failing to stop it.

Also the timing is an issue, January 16th 2014, they decide to investigate her, and 31st March they're ready to indict her. Man that's fast. Even giving her a whole 3 days to read 280 pages of claims against her.

Of course they have to move fast, if they're to submit the claim to the Senate while the appointed part is the only part in power. That senate can then suspend her, while the prosecution proceeds, and they can put their neutral middle man in power.

AFP really have a good grasp of what's going on.

I have said it in other forums and will say it again that this is a total farce and set up. I reviewed the law establishing the NACC and they are chartered to ONLY investigate CORRUPTION charges and NOT Negligence of Duty, which there have been no corruption charges personally brought against Yingluck. If there are corruption charges in the rice pledging program, then who are the person(s) being charged? What proof does the NACC or anyone else have to show Yingluck was personally knowledgeable as to any potential corruption? You mean to tell me if a rice warehouse owner was making money under the table off of the rice program, the PM is now personally responsible for every such warehouse owner? That is like saying that someone in the US gov't was smuggling guns to the Mexicans and that guy sitting in the White House who knew about it is to be blamed, or maybe there might be a case there, which is called “plausible deniability” and will never be pursued.

In a fair legal system everyone has the right to a proper defense and not have to face a "Kangaroo Court" with haste judgments that only support a certain faction in society. Fair is fair in a proper judicial system and if the courts and independent agencies (which is very questionable as to how "independent" they really are) cannot handle such matters in a fair and appropriate manner, then they should also be reformed as part of the electoral process. Why is the Criminal Court now relying upon the NACC witness testimonies in order to make their decisions about the Abhisit case?

I attended an NACC high level briefing 2 years ago in which the speaker mentioned Yingluck was already on their radar screen to be investigated, indicating this has been going on for some time now.

[Thait Spot]

all politically motivated

can you imagine Obama taken to court over Obamacare? or Thatcher over Poll Tax?

it's a farce wrapped up in an absurdity

So where are the missing hundreds of billions?

You're not comparing like with like.

[airconsult]

This ia what happens when you go shopping and travelling around the world all the time - and do your brother's bidding all the time. The plan of being able to deny responsibility for everything has failed. Be honest! Did you really expect to be able to deny responsibility for the rice scam scheme for ever?

The flip side of that, is what happens if Suthep gets power? What does he do with the rice pledge stocks?

The current buy price is 15000 baht, and export price is 37770 baht. If Suthep continues to export that stock at 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne, then the scheme ultimately becomes very very profitable for government. On the other hand he supports the rice middleman cartel, what if he sells it back to them at their usual price of 11,111 (milled) or similar? Then the government takes a huge loss, and these rice middlemen get a huge windfall!

Before you vote for him , you might want to ask him his plan to reform the rice pledge scheme.

Strange that with your figures, the current bunch of criminals government can't make it profitable. Instead they ran a loss of 800 Billion. Why would that be ?

Your loss is fiction, a loss isn't realized unless the stock is sold below cost. So a stock bought at 15000/t (i.e. 21000/t milled) and sold at 37770/t turns out to be a profit. Whereas a stock sold back to the rice cartel at 11,111/t (milled), is then realized as a loss.

The trick the Democrats are using is

1) Claim the rice is all rotten and thus 15000 becomes zero. This claim is false, spoliage is just the usual and small.

2) Compare the price to the fake low cartel price, to claim an exaggerated loss will be realized. i.e. that it will be sold at 8000/t.

3) Block the funding via court and senate/EC/Bank, forcing the existing stock to be sold at domestic auction to fund the ongoing system, which then lets them claim that as the sale price, see 2).

Let's check the scorecard...

Palm Oil - Ka-ching!

Rubber - temporary setback, preparing for round 2

Rice - in process to change scheme to realise enormous personal profits for rice buyers...

I think I fully understand the money backing behind the protests now - Thanks BNC.

[Thait Spot]

all politically motivated

can you imagine Obama taken to court over Obamacare? or Thatcher over Poll Tax?

it's a farce wrapped up in an absurdity

absolutely.

Dont forget, Suthep doesn't have time for the court and his murder charges.

Very different things.

Suthep has been charged with murder (spuriously) and has arrest warrants out for his failure to attend court that the police have not actioned.

Yingluck has been asked to explain - and thus far has not only failed to attend but brought the NACC into disrepute

[Baerboxer]

1. Why did the agency take more than five years to probe the case against Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva over the corruption allegation involving rice distribution and make no progress, while pressing charges against Yingluck after only 21 days? They have been investigating for considerably longer, as they have publicly stated. Do your research rather than believe the PTP PR version.

2. Does the NACC want to bring about a swift prosecution against Yingluck by having a full NACC panel investigating the case instead of appointing a sub panel to do the job, as it normally does with other cases? Given the seriousness of the situation, ask some farmers if you want to understand, a swift resolution is required.

3. The NACC pressing charges of malfeasance and dereliction of duty against Yingluck shows that Yingluck had nothing to do with the corruption, so why is the agency pressing charges in the broad spectrum against her? Pressing charges for negligence does not show she had nothing to do with corruption (which by you wording you admit exists). This is sophistry. Until the evidence is made public, no one knows what other charges may be brought.

4. The NACC produced a 280-page document covering the charges against Yingluck and only three days before she is forced to make her defence statement. Is the time given to her too short? YL waived her right to review and receive a copy of all the evidence by not bothering to attend before. This was explained several times publicly to her. But her "advisers" knew best. The NACC bent the rules and allowed her copies of the information. Their courtesy has been repaid by accusations, intimidation and threats to their members.

5. Does the NACC carry out its duties fairly? You would need to look at a bigger sample of cases and results of their cases to determine this. A look at the DSI cases and results over a similar period might prove interesting comparison.

6. Why doesn't the NACC give Yingluck additional time to submit her defence statement, even though the NACC's decision in this case could result in her being suspended from duty? The NACC did give YL and her defense team extra time. She isn't working alone, she has a team of lawyers working on this for her. Her lawyers requested extra time which the NACC declined believing that the original time plus the extended time allowed to be enough. Perhaps they remember the Ombudsman who has been waiting nearly 3 years for an answer to his questions. YL requested several "30 day" extensions and now simply completely ignores it. Looks like the NACC won't fall for the same trick won't allow that to happen to them.

No one wants to argue against these very fair points? non-political??? PTP and its previous incarnations have a history of dismissing any charges or accusations against them as "politically motivated". This defense doesn't work every time, or just because they were elected.

Comments as above.

[almafudd]

yes but there is that process - not this bizarre jumping into Court every five minutes - that's not a justice system that's a 'playground' system of tit for tat

I do not for one minute believe Yingluck, personally, has sat down and thought out any corrupt strategy - has someone, below her, mis-managed? yes a high probability as Thai's are not known for their 'management' skills but any such mis-management should be challenged at election time (you know that strange process most countries use?)

To suggest Yingluck is corrupt is using a piledriver to smash a tomato

When will they grow up? reform the justice system number ONE

Actually their corruption strategy is to setup an agency that investigates and prosecutes corruption.... NACC, done and dusted!

They're claiming she is negligent in not stopping corruption, but that's their job, if there was negligence, it was theirs.

They've made some allegations of corruption against others, but haven't proved them in court, so if the court says the claims are false, and it was not corruption, then how can she prove she was not negligent in not stopping things that didn't happen?

Surely they have to prove there was corruption first, before they can remove her from power for failing to stop it.

Also the timing is an issue, January 16th 2014, they decide to investigate her, and 31st March they're ready to indict her. Man that's fast. Even giving her a whole 3 days to read 280 pages of claims against her.

Of course they have to move fast, if they're to submit the claim to the Senate while the appointed part is the only part in power. That senate can then suspend her, while the prosecution proceeds, and they can put their neutral middle man in power.

AFP really have a good grasp of what's going on.

I have said it in other forums and will say it again that this is a total farce and set up. I reviewed the law establishing the NACC and they are chartered to ONLY investigate CORRUPTION charges and NOT Negligence of Duty, which there have been no corruption charges personally brought against Yingluck. If there are corruption charges in the rice pledging program, then who are the person(s) being charged? What proof does the NACC or anyone else have to show Yingluck was personally knowledgeable as to any potential corruption? You mean to tell me if a rice warehouse owner was making money under the table off of the rice program, the PM is now personally responsible for every such warehouse owner? That is like saying that someone in the US gov't was smuggling guns to the Mexicans and that guy sitting in the White House who knew about it is to be blamed, or maybe there might be a case there, which is called “plausible deniability” and will never be pursued.

In a fair legal system everyone has the right to a proper defense and not have to face a "Kangaroo Court" with haste judgments that only support a certain faction in society. Fair is fair in a proper judicial system and if the courts and independent agencies (which is very questionable as to how "independent" they really are) cannot handle such matters in a fair and appropriate manner, then they should also be reformed as part of the electoral process. Why is the Criminal Court now relying upon the NACC witness testimonies in order to make their decisions about the Abhisit case?

I attended an NACC high level briefing 2 years ago in which the speaker mentioned Yingluck was already on their radar screen to be investigated, indicating this has been going on for some time now.

Please provide a link to "law establishing the NACC and they are chartered to ONLY investigate CORRUPTION charges and NOT Negligence of Duty". So we can verify this information for ourselves.

[Thait Spot]

all politically motivated

can you imagine Obama taken to court over Obamacare? or Thatcher over Poll Tax?

it's a farce wrapped up in an absurdity

If the Republicans in the states could find one flaw in Obamacare that they think is criminal they would try in a heart beat to impeach Obama. You could ask Bill Clinton about impeachment

yes but there is that process - not this bizarre jumping into Court every five minutes - that's not a justice system that's a 'playground' system of tit for tat

I do not for one minute believe Yingluck, personally, has sat down and thought out any corrupt strategy - has someone, below her, mis-managed? yes a high probability as Thai's are not known for their 'management' skills but any such mis-management should be challenged at election time (you know that strange process most countries use?)

To suggest Yingluck is corrupt is using a piledriver to smash a tomato

When will they grow up? reform the justice system number ONE

Actually their corruption strategy is to setup an agency that investigates and prosecutes corruption.... NACC, done and dusted!

They're claiming she is negligent in not stopping corruption, but that's their job, if there was negligence, it was theirs.

They've made some allegations of corruption against others, but haven't proved them in court, so if the court says the claims are false, and it was not corruption, then how can she prove she was not negligent in not stopping things that didn't happen?

Surely they have to prove there was corruption first, before they can remove her from power for failing to stop it.

Also the timing is an issue, January 16th 2014, they decide to investigate her, and 31st March they're ready to indict her. Man that's fast. Even giving her a whole 3 days to read 280 pages of claims against her.

Of course they have to move fast, if they're to submit the claim to the Senate while the appointed part is the only part in power. That senate can then suspend her, while the prosecution proceeds, and they can put their neutral middle man in power.

AFP really have a good grasp of what's going on.

You must be giddy after all that spinning.

The NACC just determines if there is a case to answer given the evidence.

It goes to the Senate to decide whether to impeach and at some time later to the courts.

Gievn that she was and still is the chairman of the rice committee but has never attended a meeting - negligence? Dereliction of duty? Even if the inventory and cash all balanced those charges would still stand especially if she receives remneration for being a member of the committee

Given the time period that this has been happening over - why on earth has PTP NEVER submitted any accounts as requested?

[Thait Spot]

The scheme, which paid farmers above market rates for their crop

Not really, it paid above the rice cartels price, but that price has always been held low by agreement between the rice middlemen.

They pay about 8000 baht a tonnes for the best quality paddy, which is equivalent to 11,111 baht per tonne of milled, which is then exported for 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne and it is then sold in Tesco UK for 80000+ baht a tonne equivalent (5kg = 8 quid).

The government replaced their cartel with a government agency, that pays 15000 baht a tonne paddy, equivalent to 20833 milled and exported at 37770 baht.

Abhisit's democrat price guarantee worked differently, it subsidied the rice cartel price to a minimum. It worked out to be 11500 baht per tonne of paddy (link) for the best grades. The big issue with the Democrats scheme was it let the cartel drive the buy price lower, and the government made up the difference so farmers still farmed.

The rice cartel loves the democrat scheme because it's more money in their pocket, they hate the government scheme because all that money that was theirs is handed to farmers and the government. The export agency the government set up, didn't get its exporting act together quickly enough, hence that gave them a chance to attack! Although we're back on track.

If you truly believe that then why don't you go and make your millions selling to Tesco?

Numerical falacies are still falacies.

[almafudd]

This ia what happens when you go shopping and travelling around the world all the time - and do your brother's bidding all the time. The plan of being able to deny responsibility for everything has failed. Be honest! Did you really expect to be able to deny responsibility for the rice scam scheme for ever?

The flip side of that, is what happens if Suthep gets power? What does he do with the rice pledge stocks?

The current buy price is 15000 baht, and export price is 37770 baht. If Suthep continues to export that stock at 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne, then the scheme ultimately becomes very very profitable for government. On the other hand he supports the rice middleman cartel, what if he sells it back to them at their usual price of 11,111 (milled) or similar? Then the government takes a huge loss, and these rice middlemen get a huge windfall!

Before you vote for him , you might want to ask him his plan to reform the rice pledge scheme.

Strange that with your figures, the current bunch of criminals government can't make it profitable. Instead they ran a loss of 800 Billion. Why would that be ?

Your loss is fiction, a loss isn't realized unless the stock is sold below cost. So a stock bought at 15000/t (i.e. 21000/t milled) and sold at 37770/t turns out to be a profit. Whereas a stock sold back to the rice cartel at 11,111/t (milled), is then realized as a loss.

The trick the Democrats are using is

1) Claim the rice is all rotten and thus 15000 becomes zero. This claim is false, spoliage is just the usual and small.

2) Compare the price to the fake low cartel price, to claim an exaggerated loss will be realized. i.e. that it will be sold at 8000/t.

3) Block the funding via court and senate/EC/Bank, forcing the existing stock to be sold at domestic auction to fund the ongoing system, which then lets them claim that as the sale price, see 2).

What about all the money tied up in that rice? Lost interest earned on that money, Thai people suffer because they aren't receiving the services or infrastructure that money could be used for and lastly the Thai Government borrowing money to buy the rice - interest paid put to Chinese financiers.

The trick you are trying to pull is that you don't know what you are talking about and comment on everything without any facts or evidence - and no newspapers and tv reports aren't considered factual! Mostly fictional...

btw I asked you about these rice cartels / mafia and you failed to provide any additional information - but you keep on harping a out them.!

[AleG]

The scheme, which paid farmers above market rates for their crop

Not really, it paid above the rice cartels price, but that price has always been held low by agreement between the rice middlemen.

They pay about 8000 baht a tonnes for the best quality paddy, which is equivalent to 11,111 baht per tonne of milled, which is then exported for 37770 (link to export prices) baht a tonne and it is then sold in Tesco UK for 80000+ baht a tonne equivalent (5kg = 8 quid).

The government replaced their cartel with a government agency, that pays 15000 baht a tonne paddy, equivalent to 20833 milled and exported at 37770 baht.

Abhisit's democrat price guarantee worked differently, it subsidied the rice cartel price to a minimum. It worked out to be 11500 baht per tonne of paddy (link) for the best grades. The big issue with the Democrats scheme was it let the cartel drive the buy price lower, and the government made up the difference so farmers still farmed.

The rice cartel loves the democrat scheme because it's more money in their pocket, they hate the government scheme because all that money that was theirs is handed to farmers and the government. The export agency the government set up, didn't get its exporting act together quickly enough, hence that gave them a chance to attack! Although we're back on track.

37.700 Baht per tonne is the price for the most expensive variety, Jazmin rice, which you are comparing with the paddy price of white rice, in other words you are intentionally misleading by posting misinformation.

The latests sales of Thai rice have yielded 12.328 Baht per tonne (hint, that's a lot less than 37.700 Baht)

So your argument is based on using the wrong figures, therefore it is completely invalid.

The Thailand caretaker government has sold 730,000 tons of rice worth about 9 billion baht (around $277 million) of its stockpiled rice to exporters, according to Reuters.

Of the 730,000 tons, the government sold 180,000 tons through auctions and 550,000 tons directly to exporters who have overseas orders and were seeking rice for delivery, the Commerce Minister told Reuters. He says that the selling price was around current market prices.

However, it is likely that the government sold the rice at a loss. The government received 9 billion baht (around $277 million) for the 730,000 tons of rice, which suggests an average price of around 12,300 baht (about $380) per ton. This is much less than the 15,000 baht (about $462) per ton price that the government for paddy rice during 2011-2013.

9 Billion Baht from 730.000 tonnes is 12.328 Baht per tonne.

[Thait Spot]

Actually their corruption strategy is to setup an agency that investigates and prosecutes corruption.... NACC, done and dusted!

They're claiming she is negligent in not stopping corruption, but that's their job, if there was negligence, it was theirs.

They've made some allegations of corruption against others, but haven't proved them in court, so if the court says the claims are false, and it was not corruption, then how can she prove she was not negligent in not stopping things that didn't happen?

Surely they have to prove there was corruption first, before they can remove her from power for failing to stop it.

Also the timing is an issue, January 16th 2014, they decide to investigate her, and 31st March they're ready to indict her. Man that's fast. Even giving her a whole 3 days to read 280 pages of claims against her.

Of course they have to move fast, if they're to submit the claim to the Senate while the appointed part is the only part in power. That senate can then suspend her, while the prosecution proceeds, and they can put their neutral middle man in power.

AFP really have a good grasp of what's going on.

I don't think you know how the law works.

Each case brought before a court is judged on it's own merits.

Judges can use precedence if they want to - they don't have to.

It is their court room and they can do as they like so long as it is legal.

It could well turn out that Yinluck is guilty of being negligent and no one is ever charge with corruption!

Courts can take as long as they like to decide a case (or as little time as they like).

This is how the law works.

Where does it say this is against Thai law???

One reason why the NACC may have moved so quick (over two years!) maybe due to the large amounts of money involved in this case and the impact it is having on the Thai economy!

So stop your ranting incorrect posts and get over it!!

Not at all. The court doesn't come into it.

NACC's job it to prevent corruption, It takes them 1.25 years to find some, and maybe 2 year to prove it happened in a court (if it really did happen). Which they haven't yet done.

They then go and say "well why didn't you stop this a year ago, you must be negligent", yet that's not her job, it's their job, and they're claiming she should have been faster than them at their own job! A job which they haven't yet even finished!

The court doesn't come into it, because the Senate can suspend the PM on an allegation alone from the NACC. The case never needs to come to court, they remove her and as the only body in power, they can appoint one of Suthep own to run the country.

Yes it's about money, 500 billion baht's worth of rice can be sold for 821 billion baht at export. So 300 billion profit will ultimately go either to the government, or the the rice cartel. If Suthep sells it off at rice cartel market price and they export it, then he can blame PT for the loss and they become very very rich. If he leaves the scheme unchanged, he can't claim he 'reformed the scheme'.

"NACC's job it to prevent corruption, It takes them 1.25 years to find some, and maybe 2 year to prove it happened in a court (if it really did happen). Which they haven't yet done."

How long do you think it will take them to find the G2G deal was a lie? If the company involved proves to be Arisman's wife as suggested a very long time ago then you have it hook, line and siker....

[Baerboxer]

With all the back and forth on this thread the main argument has been ignored. Can anybody who finds the rice subsidy scheme so corrupt and wants to see Yingluck impeached please explain to me why they regard the NACC's approach as not politically motivated particularly in light of their handling of abhisits case that's more than 5 years old?

They're so obvious, it's embarrassing. NACC = AEC, different era, same objectives, same bosses.

Tarit said it was ok for YL to commit perjury as she was only giving evidence, not the one being tried. A rather novel and unique interpretation that implies it's o k to swear an oath to tell the truth to a court, and then lie, providing your only the witness. He made this proclamation just after she took office. No political motivation there?

The past AG rules Thaksin should not be charges for his involvement in the 2010 insurrection as "he was out of the country" at the time, despite all the video, YouTube and evidence showing he was very involved. No political motivation there?

Abhisit and Suthep"s murder charges. No political motivation there? That will be demonstrated on how the charges filed against YL, Chalerm, Tharit and cousin number 1 progress.

All charges against PTP politically motivated - they are clean as the driven snow. YL has stated that there is no corruption in the rice scheme, no corruption in her caretaker administration and that there was bona fide deals for rice sales to the Chinese government. All these are easily verified once the books are opened and audited. She should have no worries then eh?

[GuestHouse]

ruin the countries economy? It goes since 2005 and the economy is more healthy than everywhere in Europe with stable politics.

Perhaps the economies of the EU could be improved with Thailand's practices of importing vast numbers of 'Guest Workers' under direct contracts to the businesses they work for, denied basic human rights and 'employed' in what are at best conditions of 'Tied-Labour' at worst, and credibly reported, conditions of slavery.

The EU might further cut the cloth to improve economic performance by reducing health and welfare expenditure to that of Thailand while further savings in public expenditure on education are their for the taking.

Yes, Thailand's economy is booming.

[Scamper]

Yingluck and Pheu Thai have done nothing but try to derail this investigation from the word go, and whatever they haven't done, the UDD has been more than willing to pick up the slack. Try to picture this as the backdrop of a criminal investigation :

The NACC has been under frequent grenade attack.

The NACC has been under constant physical threat from the UDD.

The NACC has been discredited on a constant basis by the defendant, her lawyers, and her party.

The defendant continually refuses to show up as legally required.

Even with all of this, the National Anti-Corruption Commission has kept its head held high as the constitutionally empowered institution that it is. And they have been remarkably patient. Citizen Yingluck has spent more time coming up with ways to discredit the agency in public, more time to come up with ever more elaborate excuses to dodge responsibility - than she's been willing to devote to answering thoroughly legitimate and legal and constitutional questions about it. For a woman who assumed the responsibility of a prime minister, and promised accountability, suddenly she has decided that she is not responsible or accountable, after all.

For anything.

And now to the Pheu Thai lies :

For the millionth time, this investigation did not take 21 days ! It took fifteen months.

For the millionth time, Yingluck and her lawyers were warned - in advance and repeatedly - that they would forfeit the documentation if they failed to show up. Period. They failed to show up. Period. They don't get the documentation. Period. Having said that, the NACC bent their own rules and gave them documentation, after all. Then Citizen Yingluck asked for more time. The NACC gave her more time. Then the NACC gave them more documents.

The rules of process are the rules of process. As a defendant, and as a lawyer of a defendant you don't barter with the process. This is a process of law. It's not a garage sale. There are rules. You abide by the rules.

But at the end of the day, neither Yingluck, nor her lawyers, nor Pheu Thai - want to address these charges. They have no idea what to say to them. Because the evidence is that overwhelming. Everyone knows that. And they know it too. When this goes to the Senate, the Senate is not going to denigrate the NACC, and they aren't going to denigrate the process. When this goes to the Senate, they are not going to ask for more time, or complain on facebook. They're going to actually study this documentation, as is their constitutionally duty. And then they will render their constitutional judgement, as they should.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Scamper

[JesseFrank]

They then go and say "well why didn't you stop this a year ago, you must be negligent", yet that's not her job, it's their job, and they're claiming she should have been faster than them at their own job! A job which they haven't yet even finished!

I called you a fool previously, and will do it again if you keep sprouting drivel.

The NACC warned her more than a year ago that they had concluded that the scheme was a scam, and that she should stop it. She neglected to follow the advice of the NACC at that time.They had done their job already more thana year ago, and they have done it again now. The only problem is that Thaksin Yingluck thinks she's above the law.

[Artisi]

" no one knows her mind or thoughts about the issues ' and that includes YL herself.

But, her brother told her all about it.

He also instructed her to send her lawyers to represent her.

As evidence, a video of her crying will be presented to the court.

Good Luck Yingluck, we are all behind you, and we will send you some tissues.

Together with a food parcel ever week while you are prison, believe the foods not all that good.

[Artisi]

all politically motivated

can you imagine Obama taken to court over Obamacare? or Thatcher over Poll Tax?

it's a farce wrapped up in an absurdity

See all the red brigade love your bullshit post, but what else could you expect.

Think there is a big difference between Obamacare and Thatchers poll tax, they weren't lining their own pockets with money from the scheme as YL and her brown-nosing hanger on's have been doing even since the introduction of this flawed project, but then it was only flawed if you were a farmer, if a PTP member it was a some what perfect scheme until the wheels fell off.

[BlueNoseCodger]

Actually their corruption strategy is to setup an agency that investigates and prosecutes corruption.... NACC, done and dusted!

They're claiming she is negligent in not stopping corruption, but that's their job, if there was negligence, it was theirs.

They've made some allegations of corruption against others, but haven't proved them in court, so if the court says the claims are false, and it was not corruption, then how can she prove she was not negligent in not stopping things that didn't happen?

Surely they have to prove there was corruption first, before they can remove her from power for failing to stop it.

Also the timing is an issue, January 16th 2014, they decide to investigate her, and 31st March they're ready to indict her. Man that's fast. Even giving her a whole 3 days to read 280 pages of claims against her.

Of course they have to move fast, if they're to submit the claim to the Senate while the appointed part is the only part in power. That senate can then suspend her, while the prosecution proceeds, and they can put their neutral middle man in power.

AFP really have a good grasp of what's going on.

I don't think you know how the law works.

Each case brought before a court is judged on it's own merits.

Judges can use precedence if they want to - they don't have to.

It is their court room and they can do as they like so long as it is legal.

It could well turn out that Yinluck is guilty of being negligent and no one is ever charge with corruption!

Courts can take as long as they like to decide a case (or as little time as they like).

This is how the law works.

Where does it say this is against Thai law???

One reason why the NACC may have moved so quick (over two years!) maybe due to the large amounts of money involved in this case and the impact it is having on the Thai economy!

So stop your ranting incorrect posts and get over it!!

Not at all. The court doesn't come into it.

NACC's job it to prevent corruption, It takes them 1.25 years to find some, and maybe 2 year to prove it happened in a court (if it really did happen). Which they haven't yet done.

They then go and say "well why didn't you stop this a year ago, you must be negligent", yet that's not her job, it's their job, and they're claiming she should have been faster than them at their own job! A job which they haven't yet even finished!

The court doesn't come into it, because the Senate can suspend the PM on an allegation alone from the NACC. The case never needs to come to court, they remove her and as the only body in power, they can appoint one of Suthep own to run the country.

Yes it's about money, 500 billion baht's worth of rice can be sold for 821 billion baht at export. So 300 billion profit will ultimately go either to the government, or the the rice cartel. If Suthep sells it off at rice cartel market price and they export it, then he can blame PT for the loss and they become very very rich. If he leaves the scheme unchanged, he can't claim he 'reformed the scheme'.

You really don't get it do you?

How does the NACC prevent corruption? What powers do they have to achieve this??

THEY INVESTIGATE and then it's up to the senate to decide!!!

GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT DH

So you're case is a play on the word 'prevent'?

It's disingenous to claim NACC isn't to prevent corruption. Catching them is the deterrent that prevents corruption and their role isn't limited to investigating only after corruption is suspected, they must be looking for corruption to find suspected corruption!

Sort of like:

NACC "Why did you not stop cars speeding"

GOVT "What speeding?"

NACC "Here at this corner"

GOVT "You caught them and prosecuted them, that's how"

NACC "Yes but you didn't prevent them speeding"

NACC "...also we didn't prosecute them yet"

GOVT "then how do we know they were actually speeding and you didn't simply make it up?"

GOVT "... and how can we justify spending money to stop you making stuff up?"

NACC "Never mind that, how did you *prevent* the speeding"

GOVT "We'll put a speed camera there"

NACC "I'm sorry that wouldn't *prevent* speeding, only catch it, I'm removing you for neglience"

And then the Senate puts Speedy McRacer in as PM, a man known for speeding.