UK pensioner expat or remain UK resident

[davejones23]

I find the whole thing very confusing.

I'm a UK passport holder and have been living and working in Thailand continuously since 2005.

I still get sent a notice to complete a UK Self-Assessment tax return every year (sent to my Thai address) which I complete online, with a comment in the notes that I am now living and working in Thailand. I declare all the interest I have earned on my UK accounts and savings, although this is minimal and I usually get a tax refund. I don't declare my Thai earnings (I pay Thai income tax) or my off-shore investment bond.

I've called them more than once to find out whether I really should be completing a Self-Assessment return and they just say that if I get a notice to complete it, I have to.

Edit: I assume I could apply for expat status, but I really don't have a problem paying tax on my UK income and assume I will be eligible for NHS services should I need them.

Your assumption is totally wrong. You are not eligible for free NHS treatment, as you are not resident in the UK - you are resident in Thailand. Being resident for tax purposes is different from being resident for NHS purposes. With a few exceptions,m you have to actually live in the UK to be entitled to free NHS treatment. But if you went back for treatment you may get it for free because no-one really checks, although this could change sometime. Paying UK tax and getting free NHS treatment are two totally unrelated things.

Thanks. Hopefully I won't need to use the NHS!

I surprised there are no exemptions for English teachers working overseas!

Why should they be exempt?

[SheungWan]

I find the whole thing very confusing.

I'm a UK passport holder and have been living and working in Thailand continuously since 2005.

I still get sent a notice to complete a UK Self-Assessment tax return every year (sent to my Thai address) which I complete online, with a comment in the notes that I am now living and working in Thailand. I declare all the interest I have earned on my UK accounts and savings, although this is minimal and I usually get a tax refund. I don't declare my Thai earnings (I pay Thai income tax) or my off-shore investment bond.

I've called them more than once to find out whether I really should be completing a Self-Assessment return and they just say that if I get a notice to complete it, I have to.

Edit: I assume I could apply for expat status, but I really don't have a problem paying tax on my UK income and assume I will be eligible for NHS services should I need them.

Your assumption is totally wrong. You are not eligible for free NHS treatment, as you are not resident in the UK - you are resident in Thailand. Being resident for tax purposes is different from being resident for NHS purposes. With a few exceptions,m you have to actually live in the UK to be entitled to free NHS treatment. But if you went back for treatment you may get it for free because no-one really checks, although this could change sometime. Paying UK tax and getting free NHS treatment are two totally unrelated things.

I am not going to wholly agree with you re the last sentence. I do agree that paying UK tax does not entitle you to free NHS treatment, but I do not believe that they are disconnected. If one is declaring that one is normally resident in the UK then doing so while at the same time being non-resident for taxation purposes is not a comfortable place to be.

[brewsterbudgen]

I find the whole thing very confusing.

I'm a UK passport holder and have been living and working in Thailand continuously since 2005.

I still get sent a notice to complete a UK Self-Assessment tax return every year (sent to my Thai address) which I complete online, with a comment in the notes that I am now living and working in Thailand. I declare all the interest I have earned on my UK accounts and savings, although this is minimal and I usually get a tax refund. I don't declare my Thai earnings (I pay Thai income tax) or my off-shore investment bond.

I've called them more than once to find out whether I really should be completing a Self-Assessment return and they just say that if I get a notice to complete it, I have to.

Edit: I assume I could apply for expat status, but I really don't have a problem paying tax on my UK income and assume I will be eligible for NHS services should I need them.

Your assumption is totally wrong. You are not eligible for free NHS treatment, as you are not resident in the UK - you are resident in Thailand. Being resident for tax purposes is different from being resident for NHS purposes. With a few exceptions,m you have to actually live in the UK to be entitled to free NHS treatment. But if you went back for treatment you may get it for free because no-one really checks, although this could change sometime. Paying UK tax and getting free NHS treatment are two totally unrelated things.

I am not going to wholly agree with you re the last sentence. I do agree that paying UK tax does not entitle you to free NHS treatment, but I do not believe that they are disconnected. If one is declaring that one is normally resident in the UK then doing so while at the same time being non-resident for taxation purposes is not a comfortable place to be.

Yes, I find it uncomfortable. But if they keep sending me a Self Assessment tax return I have no choice but to complete it or be fined. I've told them I live in Thailand but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I have no problem paying UK tax on my (minimal) UK income.

[chiang mai]

I'm loathe to admit so but I've just given SW a "like", on the rare basis that I agree with his logic.

[davejones23]

I find the whole thing very confusing.

I'm a UK passport holder and have been living and working in Thailand continuously since 2005.

I still get sent a notice to complete a UK Self-Assessment tax return every year (sent to my Thai address) which I complete online, with a comment in the notes that I am now living and working in Thailand. I declare all the interest I have earned on my UK accounts and savings, although this is minimal and I usually get a tax refund. I don't declare my Thai earnings (I pay Thai income tax) or my off-shore investment bond.

I've called them more than once to find out whether I really should be completing a Self-Assessment return and they just say that if I get a notice to complete it, I have to.

Edit: I assume I could apply for expat status, but I really don't have a problem paying tax on my UK income and assume I will be eligible for NHS services should I need them.

Your assumption is totally wrong. You are not eligible for free NHS treatment, as you are not resident in the UK - you are resident in Thailand. Being resident for tax purposes is different from being resident for NHS purposes. With a few exceptions,m you have to actually live in the UK to be entitled to free NHS treatment. But if you went back for treatment you may get it for free because no-one really checks, although this could change sometime. Paying UK tax and getting free NHS treatment are two totally unrelated things.

I am not going to wholly agree with you re the last sentence. I do agree that paying UK tax does not entitle you to free NHS treatment, but I do not believe that they are disconnected. If one is declaring that one is normally resident in the UK then doing so while at the same time being non-resident for taxation purposes is not a comfortable place to be.

Of course you can't do that, as it's fraud. But the two are unrelated in how they work. e.g. you can be resident for tax purposes but not entitled to free NHS treatment. Whether you have to pay tax in th eUK is treated separately from NHS entitlement. And NHS entitled meant is based on residency. Whether you pay tax or not has nothing to do with it. The entitlements are based on the facts, not some fraud you decide to carry out. Of course people can commit fraud if they want, but that's not the issue we were discussing. You can shoplift if you want, but that doesn't make it legal.

[davejones23]

Yes, I find it uncomfortable. But if they keep sending me a Self Assessment tax return I have no choice but to complete it or be fined. I've told them I live in Thailand but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

I have no problem paying UK tax on my (minimal) UK income.

I live in Thailand, am non-resident for tax purposes, but still have to fill in a SA tax return. I still have to pay UK tax on my property rental income. If you have similar income there, then of course you'll have to fill it in. If you don't, then maybe you haven't been accept as being non-resident for tax purposes. I requested it and it was accepted. Maybe you're planning to return one day, in which case you likely wouldn't be accepted. I can't remember the exact rules, but I think you have to have teh intention of permanently leaving. If you want to go overseas for 2-3 years and then return, you won't get it.

Why would you want to pay tax if you don't have to? One of the rare few people that doesn't mind paying tax.

[PattayaPhom]

CPI at less than 2%, is it worth the trouble, not forgetting if you dont inform HMRC you are residing in Thailand, you are infact commiting a crime and can be prosecuted. Research QOPS also

Yes its a crime and judging by the sentences the dole cheats are getting in the UK for scamming 20/30/40 thousand pounds you will get a stay on the naughty step and perhaps even a slapped wrist.

But they would fine you and recover that plus over payment from future pension payments

[PattayaPhom]

CPI at less than 2%, is it worth the trouble, not forgetting if you dont inform HMRC you are residing in Thailand, you are infact commiting a crime and can be prosecuted. Research QOPS also

Well wouldn't that depend on what the definition of residing is. Living 6 months in Thailand and 6 months in the UK but remaining a UK resident for tax purposes to my mind makes you just having a long holiday.

If you become an expat then by definition you are residing out of the UK and you would notify HMRC so that your offshore funds were UK tax exempt.

I am not sure were you got the idea I was trying to pull the wool over the eyes of HMRC. It is a straight stay UK resident, lose the tax advantages or become an expat and lose the increments. As I see it with low inflation the increments are hardly worth having but the tax savings are. Plus there is the other advantages of avoiding crippling council tax and death duties.

In no way did I mean to imply you would do that. Just so many do and do not realize it is illegal

[uptheos]

Older British Citizen arrives back in the UK after many years away, needs urgent treatment.

No assets, no place to live, classified as 'vulnerable'.

What do you think will happen?

1. Get treated free

2. Get treated and handed a 40,000 pounds invoice

2. Get benefits and accommodation so he can survive

3. Given a place to die under Waterloo Bridge

5. Deported back to wherever he came from

[uptheos]

If you are retired you should consider the implications for your NHS entitlement. No small matter.

Not sure I get your point. NHS entitlement is based on where you reside, not on where you pay tax, although is to some extent based on where you reside. If you return to the UK then you are UK resident and entitled to NHS treatment.

I suppose unless you are chronically ill it wouldn't matter, if you were chronically then you would stay in the UK.

Why would you stay in the UK if you were chronically ill. I'd prefer to be chronically ill in Thailand than the UK. Depends to some extent on costs and how much money you have. But some chronic illnesses aren't much more than annoyances and don't require any/much medical treatment. Even if seriously ill I'd prefer to be in Thailand.

In my view, people should live where they will be happiest. I don't see the point of living somewhere you don't want to live just for the sake of saving a few £ on medical treatment. In any case, cheap medical insurance is available in Thailand if you want it.

That's easy to say until you get to that point of it all getting real, if you don't have adequate medical insurance and you can't fall back into the safe arms of the NHS, it will get expensive and it will get very difficult. For example, it has been said (Sheryl) that an expat with a terminal illness here will need at least 5 million baht and that assumes a smooth exit. The other aspect to consider is that end of life care in Thailand is not exactly the same as in the UK, there are very few hospices and narcotic strength pain killers are not the norm - all in all it's not going to be an easy process as in the UK..

This is an important point that you make and very true.

I know two people who died in hospices. One man in St Josephs and one lady in a Sue Ryder place. Both were treated with great dignity and kept as free as possible from pain right up to the end. I dread to think of a similar situation here and Tramadol 50 mg three times a day isn't going to cut it.

[brewsterbudgen]

Older British Citizen arrives back in the UK after many years away, needs urgent treatment.

No assets, no place to live, classified as 'vulnerable'.

What do you think will happen?

1. Get treated free

2. Get treated and handed a 40,000 pounds invoice

2. Get benefits and accommodation so he can survive

3. Given a place to die under Waterloo Bridge

5. Deported back to wherever he came from

I would like to think 1.

[uptheos]

Older British Citizen arrives back in the UK after many years away, needs urgent treatment.

No assets, no place to live, classified as 'vulnerable'.

What do you think will happen?

1. Get treated free

2. Get treated and handed a 40,000 pounds invoice

2. Get benefits and accommodation so he can survive

3. Given a place to die under Waterloo Bridge

5. Deported back to wherever he came from

I would like to think 1.

Wrong, you'll get 1 and 3

[uptheos]

Older British Citizen arrives back in the UK after many years away, needs urgent treatment.

No assets, no place to live, classified as 'vulnerable'.

What do you think will happen?

1. Get treated free

2. Get treated and handed a 40,000 pounds invoice

2. Get benefits and accommodation so he can survive

3. Given a place to die under Waterloo Bridge

5. Deported back to wherever he came from

I would like to think 1.

Wrong, you'll get 1 and 3

[uptheos]

DP Sorry

Edited April 4, 2014 by uptheos

[brewsterbudgen]

DP Sorry

You might want to correct the original numbering unless dying under Waterloo Bridge is one of the answers!

[i claudius]

CPI at less than 2%, is it worth the trouble, not forgetting if you dont inform HMRC you are residing in Thailand, you are infact commiting a crime and can be prosecuted. Research QOPS also

Yes its a crime and judging by the sentences the dole cheats are getting in the UK for scamming 20/30/40 thousand pounds you will get a stay on the naughty step and perhaps even a slapped wrist.

But they would fine you and recover that plus over payment from future pension payments

Yes your right ,just like they fine the dole cheats ,taking 5 pounds a week off their benifits ,a few weeks ago it was reported that a woman would have to live to about 170 to pay it all back. so worth the risk ,in fact i know a chap who was caught ,they just asked him to confirm when he came to live here ,he said about 4 months ago and that is what they took off him ,4 months overpayments ,he had been here for years.

[BritManToo]

Some people seem to think they can move a pension out of the UK without getting a large percentage stolen. Anyone ever managed that and still thought it was a good idea 5 years later?

I met a lot of guys in chiangmai that lost most of their money trying just that.

Better off keeping it in the UK and having some protection as far as I can see.

NHS entitlement is based on ni payments and age.

[BritManToo]

Currently any British citizen over age 65 is entitled to free NHS care.

Soon anyone in the world with 10 years ni payments will be entitled to free NHS care.

[uptheos]

DP Sorry

You might want to correct the original numbering unless dying under Waterloo Bridge is one of the answers!

Oops too late, Lord knows what happened there

As Freud would say.......................

Yes, it's now 1 & the second 2

[Hugh Jarse]

Don't loose sight of the fact that older age and poor health can creep up on you, once you've gone to the trouble of becoming an expat it's sometimes quite hard to become a resident again and as the rules change over time, re attaining NHS eligibility will become even more difficult. My vote would be, unless you have substantial assets, go the 6 months in and 6 months out route.

HMRC changed the rules last year regarding what constitutes ordinary residence for tax purposes, Google it.

[SheungWan]

Currently any British citizen over age 65 is entitled to free NHS care.

Soon anyone in the world with 10 years ni payments will be entitled to free NHS care.

Where on earth did you find that information?

[chiang mai]

Don't loose sight of the fact that older age and poor health can creep up on you, once you've gone to the trouble of becoming an expat it's sometimes quite hard to become a resident again and as the rules change over time, re attaining NHS eligibility will become even more difficult. My vote would be, unless you have substantial assets, go the 6 months in and 6 months out route.

HMRC changed the rules last year regarding what constitutes ordinary residence for tax purposes, Google it.

I am aware of those changes, but the issue is not residency for tax purposes it's residency and eligibility for NHS purposes and the two are not the same.

I also agree with another poster who said that anyone over age 65 is eligible for NHS treatment, regardless of residency, it was a concession that was made last year when the green and then white papers on the NHS were drafted then approved.

[chiang mai]

Some people seem to think they can move a pension out of the UK without getting a large percentage stolen. Anyone ever managed that and still thought it was a good idea 5 years later?

I met a lot of guys in chiangmai that lost most of their money trying just that.

Better off keeping it in the UK and having some protection as far as I can see.

NHS entitlement is based on ni payments and age.

NHS entitlement is not based in NI payments, it's based on residency.

[BritManToo]

Currently any British citizen over age 65 is entitled to free NHS care.

Soon anyone in the world with 10 years ni payments will be entitled to free NHS care.

Where on earth did you find that information?

Here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/10303008/Brits-abroad-could-have-rights-to-free-NHS-treatment-restored.html

Current state of play,

"Expats of state pension age who have lived in the UK for a continuous period of 10 years remain entitled to some cover even if they permanently live abroad. Expats living within the European Economic Area are also entitled to subsidised health care."

Later this year,

"However, the government recently carried out a huge consultation into the NHS, suggesting that access to free treatment should be given to those who have made a fair contribution. A fair contribution would constitute at least seven years of National Insurance contributions, under the proposals."

Edited April 4, 2014 by BritManToo

[chiang mai]

I stand corrected, I'd forgotten about the ten years of NI payments. But for those under state retirement age, residency is the determining factor for NHS eligibility.

[SheungWan]

Currently any British citizen over age 65 is entitled to free NHS care.

Soon anyone in the world with 10 years ni payments will be entitled to free NHS care.

Where on earth did you find that information?

Here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/10303008/Brits-abroad-could-have-rights-to-free-NHS-treatment-restored.html

Current state of play,

"Expats of state pension age who have lived in the UK for a continuous period of 10 years remain entitled to some cover even if they permanently live abroad. Expats living within the European Economic Area are also entitled to subsidised health care."

Later this year,

"However, the government recently carried out a huge consultation into the NHS, suggesting that access to free treatment should be given to those who have made a fair contribution. A fair contribution would constitute at least seven years of National Insurance contributions, under the proposals."

What exactly is 'some cover'? Is this spelled out anywhere?

[chiang mai]

http://www.whittington.nhs.uk/document.ashx?id=3227

[Bernard Flint]

If you are retired you should consider the implications for your NHS entitlement. No small matter.

Not sure I get your point. NHS entitlement is based on where you reside, not on where you pay tax, although is to some extent based on where you reside. If you return to the UK then you are UK resident and entitled to NHS treatment.

I suppose unless you are chronically ill it wouldn't matter, if you were chronically then you would stay in the UK.

You have to reside in the uk for 6 months to get free nhs, so not quite true what u said

[BritManToo]

I stand corrected, I'd forgotten about the ten years of NI payments. But for those under state retirement age, residency is the determining factor for NHS eligibility.

Until later this year, when it will (likely) become 7 years NI payments.

[BritManToo]

What exactly is 'some cover'? Is this spelled out anywhere?

The 'some cover' is you have to be in the country and join the same queue as everyone else.

No access from overseas, so essentially to have to return to the UK for the period of the treatment.

Unlike EEC agreements that provide reciprocal cover.

Edited April 4, 2014 by BritManToo