Help! Thai wife buys house but farang husband has no rights?

[bigbamboo]

The laws for an uncontested divorce are relatively straightforward. The problem is that they are alien to most foreigners.

Foreigners cannot own any land. Any assets accrued during marriage are split 50/50. Similarly all debts are too. So of you have a property you cannot own it but in the event of divorce it must be valued or sold and you will receive half of whatever it's worth. If you have a mortgage then those liabilities are shared too. If your wife wants to dump you for another man he'd better be prepared to stump the cash if she can't otherwise no divorce.

In the event of an amicable split it should be no worse than a divorce in the west. in fact it could actually be better given the lousy deal the husband usually gets from the courts at home.

The big mosquito in the tiger balm is a messy divorce and there are a pack of hungry relatives circling.........

[pinkpanther99]

As most people have said, Get a good Lawyer.

Also why not consider getting the good lawyer to create a company with both names on the title. The land doesnt belong to you as such, but belongs to the Company.

Yes you have to pay taxes but it is an investment also.

Let me know how things go. I'm very interested.

We are in the process of starting a real estate company and mainly looking after the Farangs best interest. www.siam-living.com

Best of luck and don't be a statistic

I was told that setting up a company for the purpose of a foreigner 'owning' property and land is actually illegal and although many foreigners have gone down this route in the past, it isn't advisable now

Not illegal at all. We just finished doing our yearly taxes, we were visited by the IRS to ensure the people that are registered here are the people on the company name, All is correct, yes there are many shifty lawyers that bypass the correct paperwork, But I can assure you I am and my wife are fully legal. here is a link if your interested a page from our site explaining the law when it comes to Thai ownership. http://www.siam-living.com/?page_id=497 We have the Blue book and all documentation in our company names.

Apologies, i wasnt trying to say that you were doing anything illegal.

The example that was put to me was when a company is created when someone is buying house/land, said company is then registered and the Thai company directors are perhaps some admin girl or accountant whose name is just used as a way of getting a Thai national listed as a director. The reality is that the office girl or who ever the person may be isn't a really a director at all and are used as a way to milk the system. This is what i was told was illegal because you're not creating a genuine company, instead just one that is used for the purpose of getting around Thailands laws on foreigners owning land.

But like i said, i'm far from an expert on this, just telling you what was told to me.

Sent from my GT-N5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[wvavin]

peter48, my sincere advice to you is that even though you are married with a Thai wife you have to be ABSOLUTELY CAREFUL with money matters. Things may turn out the least you are expecting. Got it?

[GAZZPA]

Heard this story many times. My advice is leave it alone, simple as that. the harsh reality is that you are not allowed to own land,, there may be some rare exceptions but in general it is not permitted. If Thailand doesn't want foreign ownership of land there is nothing you can do about it.

I guess you have a few options, buy a condo if possible, rent a house and keep your cash safe (perhaps invest in condo's to rent) or buy the house and protect yourself as much as possible but know that this has a lot of risk attached. At least you have your eyes wide open.

Good luck.

[Trouble]

Why does she need a house in Thailand if you and family are living in UK? Don't do it! It is a gift and you have absolutely no rights. Like others have said read and consult with a lawyer first.

[DekDaeng]

Peter, the above is correct.

You can buy a Condo/Apartment in your own name, but a house has a definable land content, and foreigners are not allowed to own land ... there are rare exceptions.

Go to the Real-Estate Forum, there are literally 100's on threads on the subject.

In essence, what the Thai government are asking you to confirm is that the Money (your money) is hers and not you gifting it to her ... or something along those lines.

Hundreds, maybe thousands of Westerners have lost their life savings 'investing' in Thai housing.

It's a serious step and, if I were you, read up here on the subject, then make your decision based on your gut feeling about the relationship.

Just tell the missus that there is a technical delay and read, read and read some more.

The game is 'Pussy Galore' at least until the docs are in her name. Heard of one guy, came home 'that' (docs) day, (BKK), locks changed & all his stuff in the street.

& many other stories. This place makes millions of $ a day with this game.

[DekDaeng]

Peter, the above is correct.

You can buy a Condo/Apartment in your own name, but a house has a definable land content, and foreigners are not allowed to own land ... there are rare exceptions.

Go to the Real-Estate Forum, there are literally 100's on threads on the subject.

In essence, what the Thai government are asking you to confirm is that the Money (your money) is hers and not you gifting it to her ... or something along those lines.

Hundreds, maybe thousands of Westerners have lost their life savings 'investing' in Thai housing.

It's a serious step and, if I were you, read up here on the subject, then make your decision based on your gut feeling about the relationship.

Just tell the missus that there is a technical delay and read, read and read some more.

The game is 'Pussy Galore' at least until the docs are in her name. Heard of one guy, came home 'that' (docs) day, (BKK), locks changed & all his stuff in the street.

& many other stories. This place makes millions of $ a day with this game.

Keep assets in uk. Bring all the 'income' you like to TH.

No rule of law in TH - not fer ferlangs, anyway.

Edited April 7, 2014 by DekDaeng

[DekDaeng]

Peter, the above is correct.

You can buy a Condo/Apartment in your own name, but a house has a definable land content, and foreigners are not allowed to own land ... there are rare exceptions.

Go to the Real-Estate Forum, there are literally 100's on threads on the subject.

In essence, what the Thai government are asking you to confirm is that the Money (your money) is hers and not you gifting it to her ... or something along those lines.

Hundreds, maybe thousands of Westerners have lost their life savings 'investing' in Thai housing.

It's a serious step and, if I were you, read up here on the subject, then make your decision based on your gut feeling about the relationship.

Just tell the missus that there is a technical delay and read, read and read some more.

The game is 'Pussy Galore' at least until the docs are in her name. Heard of one guy, came home 'that' (docs) day, (BKK), locks changed & all his stuff in the street.

& many other stories. This place makes millions of $ a day with this game.

Keep assets in uk. Bring all the 'income' you like to TH.

No rule of law in TH - not fer ferlangs, anyway.

& that's not including the guy who got barbecued.

[khunPer]

To OP:

I support the strong advises with finding an English speaking Thai lawyer with experience in property deals.

To my knowledge you can inherit the land from your wife, or have half of it in case of divorce, but you have to sell it within a certain period of time, think it’s 6 or 12 month. However, the document you mention, which some Land Offices claims, may state that your wife buys the land for her own money, and you will need a lawyer to tell you how you then stand in case of divorce settlement (normally 50/50 without prenuptial). Your wife may need to make a will for you to inherit the land, however she can at any time change a will.

You can as foreigner own a house, but not the land. If there already is a house on the land, the ownership can be noted at the Land Office; however having a mortgage may complicate the case – again you will need a lawyers advise.

A usufruct has been suggested, but you need to check if you can obtain a legal usufruct from your wife. That may even be dealt with different at various Land Offices.

Thai children (Thai citizenship/nationals) can own land. More specific with dual citizenship etc. you will again need a lawyers advise, also if a child can grant you a usufruct, which again may depend of the Land Office practise.

Lease is a possibility, but a long-term lease – long term is more than 3 years – need to be declared at the Land Office to be legal and a small tax paid; think it’s around 1 percent of the total lease value for the full duration. A lease contract can be up to 30 years, however a lease contract can include options for at least one additional 30-year period (some states 2 optional 30-year periods). That’s an option, not noted at the Land Department, but a legal binding contract, which in case of breach need to be taken to court (information I have received from my Thai lawyers, like most of the other information I mention).

I presume the land deed is Chanute; if not you may face other problems. I am in general positive about investing in Thailand, hereunder land via various instruments, just one is aware of the risk and take the time to consult proper advisors for a correct legal set-up from the beginning. Especially when a mortgage becomes part of the land/house deal; will you for example sign as guarantee for the mortgage of land/house in the name of your wife?

A by lawyers often suggested solution is, that you make your wife sign a loan agreement for the money you spend on the house, and that that loan is stated on the back of the deed at the Land Office, as a kind of mortgage. The House cannot the transferred or sold without the loan being paid in full, included stated (legal) interest. However, when a real mortgage is also part of the funding, you will need lawyers advise, also so a loan agreement do not conflict with a signed declaration, that your wife buys from her own money.

I wish you good luck with your project.

[Arkady]

The 'confirmation' is from a 1999 Interior Ministry regulation that replaced the previous interpretation of the Land Code which was that Thai women married to or cohabiting with foreigners were not allowed to purchase land at all. So look on it as a distinct improvement. Also in 1992 the Nationality Act was amended to allow children of Thai women with foreign fathers to have Thai nationality. Previously neither your wife nor your children would have had any rights to own land at all. Things have been getting better and better. They even permit you to sign the 'confirmation' overseas in a Thai embassy, rather than travel to Thailand to do it.

Both your sons are Thai citizens whether they have applied for Thai passports or not. In fact the 'confirmation' might not stand up to a challenge in the courts, if you got divorced and could prove that all the money used to buy the property came from you. There is a precedent like that in a Supreme Court case but it dates back to the days before the 'confirmation'. The court ruled that since the foreigner had paid for the property, it should be divided equally on divorce.

Another thing you could do is to purchase the property in the names of your children or transfer it to them later, if they don't ID cards yet. Having property in the names of children under 20 is fine, as long as you don't want to apply for planning permission or sell, rent (on a long term lease) or mortgage the property because any transaction like that would need the permission of a court while they are under 20. Many people in your situation feel that is the best solution because it reduces the risk in the event of divorce and it is not easy for the wife to sell or mortgage the property. If your wife transfers the property to her children, there is a special low rate of transfer tax for family transfers.

[beammeup]

Can I buy property, put it in my Thai kids names then lease for 30 + years? Or Usufruct the land?

[Pattaya Pat]

All very confusing isn't it.

Rather sad that you have been married for 10 years have 2 children and you are stressing because you may fall on your sword later on? So what? Suck it up and man up for heavens sakes. As long as my wife and 2 kids have a nice house over their heads in their name I'm happy about that, I only care that they are sorted, isn't that the idea? I could go back back to living in a studio room if the worse came to the worse, so what, you just get on with it. Be a man and put your wife and kids first instead of worrying about yourself.

[Pattaya Pat]

And by the way if you make it obvious that you don't trust your wife of 10 years and the mother of your children she will soon pick up on it if she hasn't already. Not going to make her feel good is it, and it's hardly a good basis to base a marriage on.

Just look at it as you are taking care of your families future. If you are that fussed take a out a 30 year lease on the property so it will be very diffulcult for her to sell as no buyer would buy once they are aware of this.

[GOLDBUGGY]

What seems unclear to me is you mention this house will be purchased with "Our Money" and a Mortgage, which obviously your wife is taking out. For her to do that she must have an income or job. So...how much of this house are you paying for, and how much is she?

As mentioned that piece of paper is simply to state that this house is being totally purchased with your wife's money. So later, if things go South, you can't go to court and say you paid for it with your money, since you already legally swore you did not. You still might be able to fight it out in court if you helped pay off the mortgage, but nobody wants to do that. In Thailand you also stand to probably lose anyway. You would not be the first or last one to try this though.

Since you can't legally own more than 49% of land, then you can't own a house. This is how you can purchase a Condo in your name but only as long as the rest of the building, or 51% of it, is owned by Thai. Some people have worked around this by forming a Fake Company, thus being able to buy any land or building like a Thai. But if you do not actually own a company, and are just using this fake company to purchase a property, this is illegal. You could end up having it all taken away one day, with no compensation, if they ever do enforce this long standing Thai Law.

You can't have the children's name as owners of the property either as the mortgage company will not allow this. They will have the first "Caveat" (Lean) on the property. Understand they use this property as there security on the loan, and they cannot take the property back from your wife, for lack payment, if your children own it. No Security...No Loan! Your wife can Will this property to you, and your children as inheritance, but this may not be the best way to go. A Will can be changed anytime by your wife, the Legal Owner, and if things go South you can bet that it is a sure thing she will change it.

If you must own a House and want security in that, then in my opinion the best way to go is a 30 Year Lease. It cost a little more to do this but it will be registered as a Caveat on the property, preventing your wife for selling it. But you also have to decide if you want to live there if things do go South. If the Wife left, do you want to be living next door to the In-Laws? Will you still live in Thailand then? So before you sign anything, relook and rethink about this house purchase, and before you drop any money down.

I am not 100% sure about this next statement but I think your lease will expire when you do, or in 30 years with a possible 30 year extension. Not too uncommon for that Pretty Thai Wife to pull the plug on the Old Man, once the house is paid for and there is no use for him anymore. In Thailand they mostly call this suicide! But a 30 year lease at least gives you some bargaining power if the marriage goes South, which is more than any other way I know of. At least you might get half the house this way. If you just go flat out and purchase it, you will likely get nothing except a lot more arguments.

Good Luck!

[GOLDBUGGY]

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Well, it is true that foreigners cannot own land, with some very special exceptions, and cannot have his name on the title deed, but that doesn't mean you own nothing. As you and your wife are legally married both of you will own half of the property's value as the purchase will be done during the marriage. This property will therefore be regarded as sin somros.

In Thailand you are also allowed to keep the money you brought into a marriage after the Divorce, so it is not all 50/50. Now if the OP signs a piece of paper saying that none of his money was used to buy this house, and all of it is hers, let me ask this question.

In a Divorce Court who is the judge going to believe? The Farang Man, who now claims that it was all his money, after he already signed a Legal Document saying it was not, or the Thai Wife, claiming it was all her money before the marriage?

If you ever stopped and wondered why they make you sign this document in the first place, stating it was all her money that bought this property, here is one good reason why.

Hum???

[parajon]

After lifetime in uk property market and with Thai partner and with close friends fooled into buying Thai property that becomes a gift to the wife my suggestion is " don't buy, rent " unless you afford the capital loss which is what it is! Its a real challenge with Thai wives pushing this and its too easy for a brit used to uk clear regulations to misunderstand. Simple solution is to KEEP YOUR CAPITAL IN YOUR NAME and rent a home for your wife. That still leaves you able to leave capital to her when you die but avoids you unintentionally sacrificing hard earned capital which is the outcome if you buy in Thai. John W

[BB1955]

Well if the house is part financed by the bank she can not sign a lease or Usufruct the banks wont allow it so that's not an option . What you are signing is a statement that the funds used to purchase this house did not come from outside of Thailand . They do this so that if you sell and try to take the money back out of the country you are taxed to the max . As in most banks here they will make you buy life insurance that will pay off the house in the event she dies. Make sure you are listed as the beneficiary on that policy . Also get a will in place that wills everything to you in the event she dies . Granted you have to sell in one year or you can pass it to your children. Like most say never invest in Thailand what you are not willing to walk away from and you will always be ok ...

[MAJIC]

Welcome to the club.

falang's (foreigners) have no right to own land and cannot own land in Thailand. period!

"falang's (foreigners) have no right to own land and cannot own land in Thailand. period!"

And the follow up should be: and don't let anyone tell you otherwise,...end of story.

The 30 year lease is not ownership, neither is the Company 49% of the company house,ownership.And there are many shysters trading as Lawyers,who will tell you that they know something that no one else knows i.e a legal way to buy land to build your house on,in your name. Believe me,sooner or later,you will kiss your money goodbye,how to avoid,throwing your money away? just make the first port of call,the Land Registry Office,with a Thai speaker,and ask the relevant questions, and see how far you will get!

No replies please,with foolproof ways and legal ways to fulfill your building dreams required! there are none!

The only thing you can buy, in your own name is an Apartment,but don't expect the ground floor,that's why you can buy it,the land is a very small consideration,especially on the 30th floor!

[mrfaroukh]

Simple rule to follow such questions should be discussed with proper lawful person. I forum like this you may get wrong answer and you repent later.

[dighambara]

First, just cross that bridge - the property is hers, even though you paid for it.

You should receive a personal yellow copy of the 'tabien ban', showing co-ownership.

Thai law is convoluted, but the typical result for a wife's death, is (w/o children) the property is yours (1 year clock) and (w/ children) is theirs under your management. Divorce is even more convoluted - not in your favor.

Why is your son, age 11 in England and not with you..??

Learning Thai is much easier here.

Why have you failed to get him a Thai passport..??

[Pattaya Pat]

Are we talking about his wife of 10 years and the Mother of his children or some bar girl get he met 3 months ago?

Good to see that mysogyny is alive and well amonsgt tv members.

Has anyone told him to' rent, not buy' yet

Edited April 8, 2014 by Pattaya Pat

[tomwct]

Tell your wife no deposit for home in Thailand! Leave your money in a Bank Account in England! She can buy a home in Thailand

after your gone! I have rented my home in Korat for 9 years and can live here for eternity! No deposit, no losses, no need to worry about ownership and Number One, I am abiding by Thai Law. The Law does not want you to own anything in Thailand! So, why gamble with a Thai National! Don't do it even if she is your wife! Enjoy a simple way of life in Thailand without problems!

[robert888d]

T.I.T. This is Thailand. I was thrown out of 'our house' AFTER 12 YEARS LIVING TOGETHER. I had no rights at all and I have been living in a hotel for the past year !.

Edited April 22, 2014 by metisdead
Oversize font reset to normal.

[Pattaya Pat]

T.I.T. This is Thailand. I was thrown out of 'our house' AFTER 12 YEARS LIVING TOGETHER. I had no rights at all and I have been living in a hotel for the past year !.

There you go! That's just about the worst thing that can happen, living in a hotel. No biggie.

Go with your heart man and buy your own home, don't live in somebody elses (rent)

[hhfarang]

You nor your Thai/English son with only a foreign passport can ever "own" the land. I guess a Usufruct or something similar is a way to protect you in case of divorce, but a will written up properly by a Thai lawyer will protect you in case of your wife's untimely demise before you and give you total "control" of your assets, including land here. I invested heavily into land and house when I first came here ten years ago and had to sign the same form you mentioned saying I have no financial interests in the land, however I got a Thai will drawn up that gives me control over the land until my death or sale of the land (and house). This is legal.

I did it because this happened to an American friend who lives here. He, luckily, had this type of will drawn up as soon as he bought property here in his wife's name (who was the same age as him). He did it to keep the family vultures from swooping in upon her death and taking everything from him. The will stated (as mine does) that if the Thai wife passes away before the foreign husband, the husband has a right to live in the house for the rest of his life, or sell the land and house and keep the proceeds. My friend's wife did pass away about ten years ago. He lived in the house until last year when he sold it for 28m baht that went into his bank account.

On his advice I had the same type of wills (you may want one for you and one for your spouse) drawn up for us. I used a very professional law firm (same one he used) called Pensit and Laws in Bangkok. It covers my wife's farm, her family home in Issan which are both in her name and land and houses we own in Hua Hin. I can control, live on, lease out, sell, any of them as I wish upon her death before mine. If I die first, of course everything is hers, and if we both go together or when the last of us dies everything will go to our daughter who lives in California but has both Thai and U.S. passports.

My daughter was born in the uk, has both passports. Owns a house and land.

Can you explain whose name the chanote was in, when he sold for 28m..

On the death of his wife, did he actually go thru probate..?

Interesting..

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The Chanote was in his wife's name and yes he did go through probate and went to probate court along with a lawyer from the Bangkok firm I mentioned.

Edited April 8, 2014 by hhfarang

[hhfarang]

T.I.T. This is Thailand. I was thrown out of 'our house' AFTER 12 YEARS LIVING TOGETHER. I had no rights at all and I have been living in a hotel for the past year !.

Did you try to do anything or did you just go willingly. I've heard of many court proceedings in cases like this where the judge was actually favorable to the foreigner's position as this situation comes up a lot and some judges believe the foreigner should get at least his share. If you got a lawyer and took her to court you may be able to win a judgement of 50% of the value of the property, or more if you can prove you paid for it, or the right to move back in if you want.

Collecting on the judgement is another problem though as enforcement of these judgements by police is spotty.

You said you were "thrown out". Did she throw out your clothes and change the locks while you were out, or is she strong enough that she physically threw you out, or did she get friends or family to physically threaten you or physically throw you out. You could have her arrested for some of the above actions... I suspect you had a big argument and you left willingly. Please elaborate on "thrown out". That could never happen to me as I weigh 100 kilos and the missus weighs 43!

Edited April 22, 2014 by metisdead

[Krataiboy]

Sorry on my last point - its quite general really but can be seen as ambiguous.In Thailand if the Thai wife passes away or 'the Farang -Thai couple' divorce does not the husband have some rights to the property especially after long marriage ? Surely we are not saying he is left with zero.

Foreigner can inherit property in Thailand, but will have to sell it within a certain period of time set by the court .

I would think that in a divorce he also can claim some part, since it are assets the wife acquired during the marriage, but you better ask that question in the Ask the lawyer forum.

Your wife can legally leave you the house and land in her Will. But you will have to sell it within six months after taking possession. According to Thai law, all assets of a marriage belong to both partners, which means you could claim half the cost of the house/land sale if you divorce. In practice, I have yet to find a single case where a falang has walked away with half of anything!

[Pattaya Pat]

'or is she strong enough that she phyisically threw you out'

Hahahahhahhahaha...farang man physically thrown out of house by Thai female...now that would be a headline!!

I assume he didn't take out the 30 year lease thingy..

I'm sure he's enjoying the hotel anyway....FREEDOM!

[Pattaya Pat]

Sorry on my last point - its quite general really but can be seen as ambiguous.In Thailand if the Thai wife passes away or 'the Farang -Thai couple' divorce does not the husband have some rights to the property especially after long marriage ? Surely we are not saying he is left with zero.

Foreigner can inherit property in Thailand, but will have to sell it within a certain period of time set by the court .

I would think that in a divorce he also can claim some part, since it are assets the wife acquired during the marriage, but you better ask that question in the Ask the lawyer forum.

Your wife can legally leave you the house and land in her Will. But you will have to sell it within six months after taking possession. According to Thai law, all assets of a marriage belong to both partners, which means you could claim half the cost of the house/land sale if you divorce. In practice, I have yet to find a single case where a falang has walked away with half of anything!

If one can't accept that he may 'lose' at least half of the land/house at some point in the future then don't buy it. It really is that simple.

[Pattaya Pat]

Tell your wife no deposit for home in Thailand! Leave your money in a Bank Account in England! She can buy a home in Thailand

after your gone! I have rented my home in Korat for 9 years and can live here for eternity! No deposit, no losses, no need to worry about ownership and Number One, I am abiding by Thai Law. The Law does not want you to own anything in Thailand! So, why gamble with a Thai National! Don't do it even if she is your wife! Enjoy a simple way of life in Thailand without problems!

That's right, you tell him!

Go and tell your wife that she cannot have a home in Thailand because a stranger on an internet forum told me not to buy you one.

This is hilarious