Life in the uk test

[7by7]

1) For ILR you need to pass the LitUK test and have B1 in speaking and listening; regardless of which immigration category you originally entered the UK under (unless exempt; which is unlikely to be the case for all except family applicants) .

Unless you are a national of an English speaking country, e.g Australia, or have an academic qualification that was taught in English and is recognised by UK NARIC as being equivalent to a UK bachelor’s degree. In either case just the LitUK test is required.

The standard of English reading and writing necessary to be able to easily study for and take the LitUK test is B1 (equivalent to ESOL Entry Level 3).

2) For the initial visa family settlement applicants need only A1 in speaking and listening; tier 2 applicants need B1 in speaking, listening, reading and writing.

In addition, Tier 2 visa applicants need to be sponsored by an approved employer; many of whome will, like hospital trusts, have their own, higher English requirement before offering an overseas national a job and thus sponsoring them.

Conclusion; for the initial visa the language requirements are easier for a family settlement visa than for a Tier 2 visa. For ILR they are the same.

[thomasteve]

1) For ILR you need to pass the LitUK test and have B1 in speaking and listening; regardless of which immigration category you originally entered the UK under (unless exempt; which is unlikely to be the case for all except family applicants) .

Unless you are a national of an English speaking country, e.g Australia, or have an academic qualification that was taught in English and is recognised by UK NARIC as being equivalent to a UK bachelor’s degree. In either case just the LitUK test is required.

The standard of English reading and writing necessary to be able to easily study for and take the LitUK test is B1 (equivalent to ESOL Entry Level 3).

2) For the initial visa family settlement applicants need only A1 in speaking and listening; tier 2 applicants need B1 in speaking, listening, reading and writing.

In addition, Tier 2 visa applicants need to be sponsored by an approved employer; many of whome will, like hospital trusts, have their own, higher English requirement before offering an overseas national a job and thus sponsoring them.

Conclusion; for the initial visa the language requirements are easier for a family settlement visa than for a Tier 2 visa. For ILR they are the same.

Correct : Tier 2 visa applicants such as medical staff can work freely in UK without having to pass a Life in UK test.

It is only needed if they should later choose to apply for ILR

[7by7]

Indeed, which is what I said; glad you agree.

But remember, a tier 2 applicant not only has to pass speaking and listening at B1, whilst a family settlement applicant only needs speaking and listening at the lower A1, they also need B1 in reading and writing.

Which is the standard necessary to be able to easily study for and pass the LitUK test.

Indeed, all PBS applicants coming to the UK to work have to meet the same language requirement as tier 2 applicants.

So your original assertion that the language requirement for family members is more stringent than that for workers is, as I said, rubbish. It is, in fact, the other way round.

In addition, although it is possible to extend a tier 2 visa, and other PBS visas, the maximum a holder can stay in the UK for is 6 years. After that they would have to apply for ILR or leave.

So it is not a matter of choosing to apply for ILR or remaining on their PBS visa; It's a matter of choosing to apply for ILR or leaving the UK!

Edited May 26, 2014 by 7by7

[Arkady]

Totally agree virgomjh. For those of you here that seem to support this LITUK let me put this to you. You and your partners decide to go and live in Thailand. Thailand says ok no problem but you will have to :-

1. Pay B45,000 for a visa - designated in US$ at a rate specified by the Thai government. No appeal rights or refunds if it is declined.

2. Pass a speaking and listening test in Thai.

3. Take and pay for a TB test.

4. Demonstrate that you and your partner have income of B910,000 p.a. or savings of B3,125,000

5. Show that you and your partner have adequate accommodation.

Thailand will then let come for a period of 2 1/2 years after which you will have to pay another B30,000 to stay another 2 1/2 years. After 5 years you will be able to stay in Thailand permanently after you have passed a Life In Thailand Test. This test must be taken in Thai script and you must achieve a passmark of at least 75%. Sample question of this test - Rama II died in (a) 2361 ( 2364 © 2367 (d) 2374.

If you don't pass you can pay another B30,000 to stay another 2 1/2 years and so on.

Mmmmmmmmm I can't think that many of you will be jumping on the next plane to Bangkok. Let's hope Thailand doesn't reciprocate and impose the sort of ridiculous, onerous visa requirements that we impose on the Thais.

The fact is that Thailand doesn't provide any way you can obtain permanent residency at all based on solely on marriage to a Thai citizen or having Thai children. You have to to have been working in Thailand for at least 3 years to apply and you are unlikely to be considered with a salary of less then B960,000 a year or work for a small company majority owned by your spouse, although they won't tell you these requirements. The process takes 5-6 years with no appeal if you are rejected, which does happen, and the Immigration Bureau often doesn't disclose the real reason for rejections. Having a Thai spouse doesn't improve your chances of being approved but does subject you to additional tests to prove your marital status, including humiliating photographs of you and your spouse sitting on the marital bed together, and DNA tests are required for your Thai children. The tests of relationship are only done to ensure that you are not fraudulently trying to reduce the total fees from B240,000 to B120,000 which is the only benefit of having a Thai spouse. Officials will come to your house without at appointment and quizz anyone in the house and neighbours about you and your spouse. You also have to do an interview in Thai before a panel of senior civil servants which requires more than the baby Thai spoken by most foreigners in Thailand.

I agree with the concept of the Life in UK test but think questions should be made more relevant to every day life in the UK. However, the financial requirements are moderate compared to the cost of living in the UK. If you look through other TV forums, you will find many posts by farangs bitter that they have lived in Thailand for many years and have Thai families but are condemned to remain as temporary residents in their adopted countries. Many of them would jump at the chances that your Thai wives are given to obtain permanent residence and citizenship in the UK. I guess the grass is always greener.

[durhamboy]

Yes I agree that it is difficult/impossible to get PR in Thailand. However, I lived there for over a year and met many farangs with Thai spouses/partners. None of them expressed any concern that they couldn't get PR. They all seemed to be quite happy with the visa requirements of basically just popping along to an immigration office occasionally.

If you read the topics and posts here in TV (as I'm sure you do) you will see many people who are very unhappy about the visa requirements for their spouses/partners when trying to go back to the UK. Many cannot obtain the basic Settlement Visa because they cannot show enough income.

Thailand, unlike the UK, allows them to live together without many of the ridiculous hoops (and expense) that has to be endured for them to live together in the UK.

[wooloomooloo]

Thailand, unlike the UK, allows them to live together without many of the ridiculous hoops (and expense) that has to be endured for them to live together in the UK.

And how do they manage to live together without the ridiculous expense?

Please succinctly clarify how easy it is.

[7by7]

Yes I agree that it is difficult/impossible to get PR in Thailand. However, I lived there for over a year and met many farangs with Thai spouses/partners. None of them expressed any concern that they couldn't get PR. They all seemed to be quite happy with the visa requirements of basically just popping along to an immigration office occasionally.

If you read the topics and posts here in TV (as I'm sure you do) you will see many people who are very unhappy about the visa requirements for their spouses/partners when trying to go back to the UK. Many cannot obtain the basic Settlement Visa because they cannot show enough income.

Thailand, unlike the UK, allows them to live together without many of the ridiculous hoops (and expense) that has to be endured for them to live together in the UK.

Popping along to the immigration office occasionally? Is it not every 90 days? Or leaving the country every 30 days?

This is a topic about the LitUK test, not the financial requirement; but as you brought it up I will comment.

My opposition to the current level of this requirement is a matter of record; I feel the minimums are way to high.

However, to compare with Thailand:-

1) To obtain UK ILR applicant and sponsor have to show they have the required finances only three times; for the initial visa, FLR and ILR.

If living in Thailand as the spouse of a Thai, one needs to prove one meets the finance requirements every 90 days; for ever unless one obtains PR.

2) For the initial UK settlement visa only the sponsor's income can be used, but for FLR and ILR the applicant's income can be used as well. If using savings these can be in the name of sponsor, applicant or both for all three applications.

In Thailand only the non Thai spouse's income and/or savings can be used; any income or savings the Thai spouse has cannot be used at any stage.

3) The minimum income required for the UK is £18,600 p.a.; £357.69 per week. Although this is too high, IMHO, it is still below the average wage, as at Dec 2013, of £513 per week (source).

The minimum income required for the spouse of a Thai national is 40,000baht per month; more than three times the average Thai income, for the first quarter of 2014, of 12,772.48 baht per month (source).

It seems to me that the British spouse of a Thai living in Thailand has to regularly and continuously 'jump' through far more 'hoops' than the Thai spouse of a Brit living in the UK; who once they have ILR has no further 'hoops' through which to 'jump.'

Unless they want to go for naturalisation; which as the spouse of a British citizen is very simple to obtain. especially when compared to a British spouse of a Thai getting PR in Thailand, let alone Thai citizenship!

(Edited to add average incomes and for clarity)

Edited June 14, 2014 by 7by7

[Arkady]

Yes I agree that it is difficult/impossible to get PR in Thailand. However, I lived there for over a year and met many farangs with Thai spouses/partners. None of them expressed any concern that they couldn't get PR. They all seemed to be quite happy with the visa requirements of basically just popping along to an immigration office occasionally.

If you read the topics and posts here in TV (as I'm sure you do) you will see many people who are very unhappy about the visa requirements for their spouses/partners when trying to go back to the UK. Many cannot obtain the basic Settlement Visa because they cannot show enough income.

Thailand, unlike the UK, allows them to live together without many of the ridiculous hoops (and expense) that has to be endured for them to live together in the UK.

I am lucky enough to have got PR in Thailand in the 90s when it was a lot easier and cheaper and am now close to getting my citizenship, four years after applying which is considered quite fast. I had to jump through many unexpected bureaucratic hoops for both which I won't bore you with here but they involved the need to appeal for help from senior Thais to prevent both applications being blocked due to minor technicalities. So I am not bitter with the system which has worked well for me but I have come across many long-term farang residents with Thai wives and children who can't get PR or citizenship and are bitter. I sympathise with their situations.

Yes, it is relatively easy to pop along to Immigration for another annual extension of stay based on marriage, if you have the B400,000 in the bank but you are only ever going to be a temporary resident with no longer-term rights based on having Thai family. You have no right to healthcare which you might need when you are old and have been cut off by your insurance company, or just can't afford it (and also have no right to the UK NHS, unless you re-establish residence there for 6 months).

You never know what will happen in future either. The lump sums needed for extensions based on marriage or retirement have not been raised for about 20 years. The last time they were raised they were raised without prior notice by 4 times. Suddenly having to show B1.6 million for an extension based on marriage would break up more than a few farang-Thai families. Right now there is a crack down on illegal foreign workers in Thailand. Visa runners are being left stranded at border crossings and 60,000 Cambodian labourers have fled over the border after being kicked out of their illegal jobs without notice by their Thai employers. It is not clear where this will end but adjusting up 20 year old financial requirements to take inflation into account is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

[durhamboy]

Thanks for the replies guys. Responses as follows :-

Wooloomooloo - the expense I was talking about is the cost of the visas and costs of the related hoops. Trying to be as succinct as possible, in my wife's case in order for us to be able to come and live in the UK these are :-

Visa Application = £900

English exam - fees and tuition etc. = £500

TB test = £35

Total = £1,435 which excludes the costs of numerous trips to Bangkok to accomplish the above.

Then after 2 years and 9 months we will have to pay a further c.£600 for FLR.

The cost for a farang to stay in Thailand on a temporary visa is nowhere near that amount.

7 by 7 / Arkady - seems to be a bit of a discrepancy in what you are saying. Arkady you say that it is relatively easy to get extensions whereas 7 by 7 you seem to be questioning how easy it is. Well Arkady lives there so personally I would agree with him.

You both talk about the costs of staying in Thailand. 7 by 7 you mention having income of B40,000 per month (c. £800) whereas Arkady mentions having B400k (c. £8000) in the bank. You both might be right but when I was there people talked about having B400k in the bank - many of them actually engaged the services of a lawyer and were able to deposit the 400k on one day and withdraw it the next. So 7 by7 I therefore don't think that you have to prove this to Thai immigration everytime you report.

The bottom line is that these financial requirements are not unreasonable. Having c. £8,000 in the bank as compared to £62,500 for the same sort of thing in the UK!

Arkady - I accept that it is much more difficult to get PR in Thailand than it is in the UK. However, it is a lot more easier for couples to live in Thailand than it is for them to live in the UK. The way the UK rules are set up at the moment many people cannot meet the requirements and families are effectively being either forced apart or having to live in Thailand. Shame on the UK but that's just my opinion.

[7by7]

<snip>

7 by 7 / Arkady - seems to be a bit of a discrepancy in what you are saying. Arkady you say that it is relatively easy to get extensions whereas 7 by 7 you seem to be questioning how easy it is. Well Arkady lives there so personally I would agree with him.

Read my post again; I have not questioned how easy it is.

I's as easy or hard as obtaining FLR or ILR in the UK. If you satisfy the criteria it's easy; if you don't then it's hard!

You both talk about the costs of staying in Thailand. 7 by 7 you mention having income of B40,000 per month (c. £800) whereas Arkady mentions having B400k (c. £8000) in the bank. You both might be right but when I was there people talked about having B400k in the bank - many of them actually engaged the services of a lawyer and were able to deposit the 400k on one day and withdraw it the next. So 7 by7 I therefore don't think that you have to prove this to Thai immigration everytime you report.

My understanding, and I'm more than willing to be corrected by one who knows for sure, is that it is either 40,000baht per month income or 400,000baht in the bank.

I also thought you had to show this at every 90 day report, not just once a year; otherwise what is the point of the 980 day report?

However, if you do only have to show it once a year, that is still more inconvenient, for want of a better word, than the UK; where income/savings only have to be shown three times to obtain ILR and that's it.

The bottom line is that these financial requirements are not unreasonable. Having c. £8,000 in the bank as compared to £62,500 for the same sort of thing in the UK!

Compared to the average income in both countries and the cost of living in both countries; the UK requirements are more reasonable.

Some Brits living and working or retired in Thailand obviously have no trouble meeting the requirement; but many don't. Otherwise, why do so many do visa runs?

As Arkady says, these levels have not been raised for 20 years. What happens if, more likely when, the Thai government does raise them to take account of 20 years worth of inflation? How many will still be able to meet this requirement then?

Arkady - I accept that it is much more difficult to get PR in Thailand than it is in the UK. However, it is a lot more easier for couples to live in Thailand than it is for them to live in the UK. The way the UK rules are set up at the moment many people cannot meet the requirements and families are effectively being either forced apart or having to live in Thailand. Shame on the UK but that's just my opinion.

I agree that the UK financial requirement is not fair, the levels are set way to high; and have said so many times here and campaigned elsewhere for change.

But this topic is not about the financial requirement; it is about the LitUK test.

For reasons already given, whilst some of the questions could be made more relevant, the general principal of requiring ILR applicants to show they have some knowledge of life and language in the UK is one I wholeheartedly support.

As applicant's have 5 years in which to study for and pass the test, I can see no reason why anyone would be unable to do so.

Unless they have a disability which means they are physically or mentally unable to do so; in which case they are exempt.

Does the Thai government give the disabled any exemptions to their requirements?

[wooloomooloo]

Thailand, unlike the UK, allows them to live together without many of the ridiculous hoops (and expense) that has to be endured for them to live together in the UK.

And how do they manage to live together without the ridiculous expense?

Please succinctly clarify how easy it is.

The cost for a farang to stay in Thailand on a temporary visa is nowhere near that amount.

Have a careful read of the above quotes, durhamboy. You finally hit the nail on the head with the word 'temporary' in the last quote.

Your wife/girlfriend is more than welcome to visit the UK on a temporary basis for the trifling amount of about £90. Hardly a ridiculous hoop and expense, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not entirely sure why this thread keeps returning to comparisons between Thai and UK immigration policy as it's not relevant in the slightest.

In my personal opinion permanent residence and citizenship in the UK is expedient and well worth the outlay.

Edited June 15, 2014 by wooloomooloo

[durhamboy]

7 by 7 - you said "Popping along to the immigration office occasionally? Is it not every 90 days? Or leaving the country every 30 days?" sorry, but isn't that questioning how easy it is to get an extension?

I can't understand your point about getting FLR or ILR. Of course it's easy if you satisfy the criteria. The problem is that it is the criteria that is so onerous.

Maybe Arkady can enlighten us about the visa extension process in Thailand but my understanding is that you do not have to continue proving your income or bank balance. Like you, I am happy to be corrected. People with spouse visas do not go on visa runs. People with "non-O immigration visas" which are valid for a year have to leave the country every 90 days. I had one of these.

You say that you that savings/income "only have to be shown three times to obtain ILR and that's it." Well that's assuming that the applicant passes LITUK. If they don't then you are having to prove income/savings until the applicant is 65. As it is, under the new rules this income/savings has to be maintained and shown over a minimum of 5 years.

You say "Compared to the average income in both countries and the cost of living in both countries; the UK requirements are more reasonable." Looking at the savings requirements Thailand is £8k whilst UK is £62.5k almost 8 times as much. Are you saying that the cost of living is almost 8 times greater in the UK. I don't think so. The fact that apparently Thailand hasn't raised the threshold for 20 years I think is not relevant. Maybe Thailand realises that by keeping the requirements reasonable more people will choose to live there and therefore spend more money in Thailand. Unlike the UK the Thais are not scared of immigration.

You say that you think anyone should be able to pass LITUK after living and studying in the UK for 5 years. What do you base that on? Whether you would be able to pass it or someone whose first language is not English and who has never previously understood roman script?

I really think that you should stop spouting off about how easy you think things are when you really have had very little practical knowledge about what you consider to be easy. As you have posted before, your wife never had to do an English exam or LITUK for her visa. I am sure she would have passed but then you would have got into the nitty gritty of how difficult this process has become and also possibly the related practical problems that our current system is imposing on people.

[steady]

Reading through all of the replies has left me wondering if you are talking about the same thing. I understand the concepts of the Thai way and the British way but in my opinion these are two very different ideas. One is designed to be temporary and you have to drip feed the system for as long as they allow you to remain. The other expects people who want to settle there to commit both financially and culturally to the values of that society. It is like comparing apples with oranges.

After living in Thailand for 10 years I know that I always had reservations when going for a visa renewal or 90 day report. I met all the Thai financial requirements but knew that I was totally at the whim of the person I came up against and if he or she wanted to give me a problem then that's what I got. As everyone who has been to Thailand knows problems cost money to disappear and if the problem (real or otherwise) gets big enough then leaving Thailand is the only real option. Thankfully that is rare but it does happen.

Anyway I think that both situations are entirely different, both with merits and both with shortfalls.

[RAZZELL]

7 by 7 - you said "Popping along to the immigration office occasionally? Is it not every 90 days? Or leaving the country every 30 days?" sorry, but isn't that questioning how easy it is to get an extension?

I can't understand your point about getting FLR or ILR. Of course it's easy if you satisfy the criteria. The problem is that it is the criteria that is so onerous.

Maybe Arkady can enlighten us about the visa extension process in Thailand but my understanding is that you do not have to continue proving your income or bank balance. Like you, I am happy to be corrected. People with spouse visas do not go on visa runs. People with "non-O immigration visas" which are valid for a year have to leave the country every 90 days. I had one of these.

You say that you that savings/income "only have to be shown three times to obtain ILR and that's it." Well that's assuming that the applicant passes LITUK. If they don't then you are having to prove income/savings until the applicant is 65. As it is, under the new rules this income/savings has to be maintained and shown over a minimum of 5 years.

You say "Compared to the average income in both countries and the cost of living in both countries; the UK requirements are more reasonable." Looking at the savings requirements Thailand is £8k whilst UK is £62.5k almost 8 times as much. Are you saying that the cost of living is almost 8 times greater in the UK. I don't think so. The fact that apparently Thailand hasn't raised the threshold for 20 years I think is not relevant. Maybe Thailand realises that by keeping the requirements reasonable more people will choose to live there and therefore spend more money in Thailand. Unlike the UK the Thais are not scared of immigration.

You say that you think anyone should be able to pass LITUK after living and studying in the UK for 5 years. What do you base that on? Whether you would be able to pass it or someone whose first language is not English and who has never previously understood roman script?

I really think that you should stop spouting off about how easy you think things are when you really have had very little practical knowledge about what you consider to be easy. As you have posted before, your wife never had to do an English exam or LITUK for her visa. I am sure she would have passed but then you would have got into the nitty gritty of how difficult this process has become and also possibly the related practical problems that our current system is imposing on people.

I'm afraid most things in life worth having are not easy.

As someone who has paid for visit visas, a fiancee visa, FLR, ILR and now a UK passport in the last 5 years I know how easy it is for some and how difficult it can be for others.

Unfortunately, the rules are the rules and no amount of whinging or hand wringing will do anything - you just have to get on with it.

So - let's tackle some of your points.

1 - The visa rules/criteria are "onerous" - only if you don't qualify/can't afford it. And yes the arbitrary figures are a joke - but what can you do?

2 - LITUK is not easy. But I can't see why anyone would not be able to pass eventually given enough tuition. My wife passed second attempt (after she actually did some work and read the book rather than just studied online). She has just passed her driving theory at the 3rd attempt which I think is even harder.

3 - Savings - look at the average salary in the UK and Thailand and then make a comparison.

4 - The Thais are not scared of immigration? See how they treat guest (illegal) workers...Did you read The Guardian last week? http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/10/supermarket-prawns-thailand-produced-slave-labour

Thais like a lot of Asians are pretty xenophobic...plus I doubt Thailand have had 2m+ immigrants in the last 10 years either

There you go...some spouting off from someone who's wife has been, there, seen it, done it

RAZZ

Edited June 15, 2014 by RAZZELL

[theoldgit]

Offensive and inaccurate post removed.

[Jay Sata]

Totally agree virgomjh. For those of you here that seem to support this LITUK let me put this to you. You and your partners decide to go and live in Thailand. Thailand says ok no problem but you will have to :-

1. Pay B45,000 for a visa - designated in US$ at a rate specified by the Thai government. No appeal rights or refunds if it is declined.

2. Pass a speaking and listening test in Thai.

3. Take and pay for a TB test.

4. Demonstrate that you and your partner have income of B910,000 p.a. or savings of B3,125,000

5. Show that you and your partner have adequate accommodation.

Thailand will then let come for a period of 2 1/2 years after which you will have to pay another B30,000 to stay another 2 1/2 years. After 5 years you will be able to stay in Thailand permanently after you have passed a Life In Thailand Test. This test must be taken in Thai script and you must achieve a passmark of at least 75%. Sample question of this test - Rama II died in (a) 2361 ( 2364 © 2367 (d) 2374.

If you don't pass you can pay another B30,000 to stay another 2 1/2 years and so on.

Mmmmmmmmm I can't think that many of you will be jumping on the next plane to Bangkok. Let's hope Thailand doesn't reciprocate and impose the sort of ridiculous, onerous visa requirements that we impose on the Thais.

It is not just imposed on Thai's as it applies to everyone. Designed to encourage migrants to integrate and be able to speak the language of their new country.

To be fair this is also a common requirement in a number of European countries as well.

[durhamboy]

7 by 7 - you said "Popping along to the immigration office occasionally? Is it not every 90 days? Or leaving the country every 30 days?" sorry, but isn't that questioning how easy it is to get an extension?

I can't understand your point about getting FLR or ILR. Of course it's easy if you satisfy the criteria. The problem is that it is the criteria that is so onerous.

Maybe Arkady can enlighten us about the visa extension process in Thailand but my understanding is that you do not have to continue proving your income or bank balance. Like you, I am happy to be corrected. People with spouse visas do not go on visa runs. People with "non-O immigration visas" which are valid for a year have to leave the country every 90 days. I had one of these.

You say that you that savings/income "only have to be shown three times to obtain ILR and that's it." Well that's assuming that the applicant passes LITUK. If they don't then you are having to prove income/savings until the applicant is 65. As it is, under the new rules this income/savings has to be maintained and shown over a minimum of 5 years.

You say "Compared to the average income in both countries and the cost of living in both countries; the UK requirements are more reasonable." Looking at the savings requirements Thailand is £8k whilst UK is £62.5k almost 8 times as much. Are you saying that the cost of living is almost 8 times greater in the UK. I don't think so. The fact that apparently Thailand hasn't raised the threshold for 20 years I think is not relevant. Maybe Thailand realises that by keeping the requirements reasonable more people will choose to live there and therefore spend more money in Thailand. Unlike the UK the Thais are not scared of immigration.

You say that you think anyone should be able to pass LITUK after living and studying in the UK for 5 years. What do you base that on? Whether you would be able to pass it or someone whose first language is not English and who has never previously understood roman script?

I really think that you should stop spouting off about how easy you think things are when you really have had very little practical knowledge about what you consider to be easy. As you have posted before, your wife never had to do an English exam or LITUK for her visa. I am sure she would have passed but then you would have got into the nitty gritty of how difficult this process has become and also possibly the related practical problems that our current system is imposing on people.

I'm afraid most things in life worth having are not easy.

As someone who has paid for visit visas, a fiancee visa, FLR, ILR and now a UK passport in the last 5 years I know how easy it is for some and how difficult it can be for others.

Unfortunately, the rules are the rules and no amount of whinging or hand wringing will do anything - you just have to get on with it.

So - let's tackle some of your points.

1 - The visa rules/criteria are "onerous" - only if you don't qualify/can't afford it. And yes the arbitrary figures are a joke - but what can you do?

2 - LITUK is not easy. But I can't see why anyone would not be able to pass eventually given enough tuition. My wife passed second attempt (after she actually did some work and read the book rather than just studied online). She has just passed her driving theory at the 3rd attempt which I think is even harder.

3 - Savings - look at the average salary in the UK and Thailand and then make a comparison.

4 - The Thais are not scared of immigration? See how they treat guest (illegal) workers...Did you read The Guardian last week? http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/10/supermarket-prawns-thailand-produced-slave-labour

Thais like a lot of Asians are pretty xenophobic...plus I doubt Thailand have had 2m+ immigrants in the last 10 years either

There you go...some spouting off from someone who's wife has been, there, seen it, done it

RAZZ

I decided to give you a notification that I liked your post because essentially we seem to be in agreement :-

1. Agreed, yes the rules are onerous if you don't qualify or can't afford it. It's the absurdity of some of the rules and the high cost of visas that is the problem.

2. Agreed LITUK is not easy. Congrats to your wife on passing.

3. Not sure if we agree of disagree here. I suspect that you are saying that average salary in the UK is higher than Thailand. I would agree that it is. However, have a look at the Big Mac index i.e. the cost of buying a Big Mac in every country of the world - Thailand US$2.46 versus UK US$3.82. That would make the UK less than twice the cost of Thailand. I would accept that as people don't just spend their money on hamburgers then the UK is maybe more like 4x the cost of living in Thailand but 8x.....no!

4. Sorry I don't think we are talking about the same thing here. You are talking about illegal workers whereas I am talking about people living in Thailand legitimately.

I also agree with you that the rules are the rules and we just have to get on with it. I just want to voice my opinion against them. You call it whinging and I call it arguing. You say tomato and I say tomato!

[durhamboy]

Thailand, unlike the UK, allows them to live together without many of the ridiculous hoops (and expense) that has to be endured for them to live together in the UK.

And how do they manage to live together without the ridiculous expense?

Please succinctly clarify how easy it is.

The cost for a farang to stay in Thailand on a temporary visa is nowhere near that amount.

Have a careful read of the above quotes, durhamboy. You finally hit the nail on the head with the word 'temporary' in the last quote.

Your wife/girlfriend is more than welcome to visit the UK on a temporary basis for the trifling amount of about £90. Hardly a ridiculous hoop and expense, wouldn't you agree?

I'm not entirely sure why this thread keeps returning to comparisons between Thai and UK immigration policy as it's not relevant in the slightest.

In my personal opinion permanent residence and citizenship in the UK is expedient and well worth the outlay.

Sorry but I think that you misread my post of yesterday - I said the visa cost £900 for a settlement visa (which is temporary as it only lasts for 2 years 9 months).

You seem to have thought that I was talking about a tourist visa for £90. I wasn't. I suggest that you need to read the posts more carefully.

In my case I estimate that to get my wife's citizenship in the UK will cost around £5,000 in total. I pay it because our relationship is worth it not because I think HMG is giving me a bargain! Someone posted in this forum a couple of months ago that they thought having a foreign wife in the UK is a luxury that a lot of Brits can't afford. At £5,000 I agree with him...........but there I go whingeing again!

[7by7]

I am not going to repeat my previous posts to answer your points on Thailand vs. UK again, durhamboy.

Neither am I going to attempt to justify visa and LTR fees and the income requirements. My belief that both are too high is a matter of record; despite your attempts to convince that I believe the opposite!

But there is one point I will deal with.

You say that you think anyone should be able to pass LITUK after living and studying in the UK for 5 years. What do you base that on? Whether you would be able to pass it or someone whose first language is not English and who has never previously understood roman script?

I really think that you should stop spouting off about how easy you think things are when you really have had very little practical knowledge about what you consider to be easy. As you have posted before, your wife never had to do an English exam or LITUK for her visa. I am sure she would have passed but then you would have got into the nitty gritty of how difficult this process has become and also possibly the related practical problems that our current system is imposing on people.

My wife and step daughter did, indeed, obtain first ILR and then British citizenship before the introduction of KOLL.

My step daughter was 10 when she and her mother first entered and had no English at all; her school arranged the necessary extra English lessons for her; as is their legal obligation.

My wife could speak and understand English to a reasonable degree; but could not read nor write it.

So she enrolled on an English course, not only to improve her speaking and listening but also to learn to read and write English.

She didn't have to do so for any visa or LTR purpose; she did so voluntarily so that she could improve her employment prospects and integrate better into UK society.

We know many Thais who entered before KOLL and did not bother taking such courses and so improving their English skills.

They have difficulty in finding work.

Any interaction with non Thais requires help from their English spouse/partner; for example they have to get their spouse/partner to make doctor/dentist appointments for them and go with them to these appointments to explain things to them.

They very rarely socialise outside the circle of Thais in our area.

Living in an area with a high population of South Asian origin, I see, and have done for many years, the same for the immigrant spouse/partners, especially women, from that community. Many are now grandparents and still have to take their children or grand children everywhere with them to translate.

Now, you may very well say that these people should have buckled down and learned English, even though they was at the time no legal requirement for them to do so.

I would agree with you; that is exactly what my wife did!

But many, the majority in fact, did not. Hence the need for KOLL and hence my support for it.

We also know many Thais who entered after the introduction of KOLL. All of them passed; not all first time, but they did all pass before they were due to apply for ILR; which for all of them was within 2 years, not the 5 years people have now.

They did so by working at it, both on English courses and at home.

As I have said at least twice before, but you have ignored, if someone is unable to study for and take the tests, LitUK and B1, due to physical or mental disability or age then they are exempt from KOLL.

Unless your wife falls into one of the above exemptions, I can see no reason why she cannot enrol on an appropriate English course to improve her verbal and written English to the (fairly low) standard required to be able to study for and pass both tests.

If there is a valid reason why she cannot do so, I'm sure you'll tell us.

[bobrussell]

My wife could speak, read and write English well. She had prepared with courses in Thailand over a number of years. She still took a course in the UK (ESOL with life skills) and gained a lot of benefit from it. Her confidence was boosted and she has friends of many nationalities. Playing cards and gambling is entirely a Thai social activity unless my younger son joins them. He practices his Thai counting skills as he loses money!

She spent a lot of time using a computer course to pass the written driving test and I say again the LitUK test is no more difficult to pass than the driving test. She did not have to do the test but like most Thai's I know would have taken it in her stride!

Settlement fees are high but by the time you factor healthcare and schooling plus the other benefits of living in the UK still seem a bargain to me!

[7by7]

<snip>

To be fair this is also a common requirement in a number of European countries as well.

Plus many other countries; for many years.

I have already mentioned Humphrey Bogart helping Ingrid Bergman study for the USA version in between takes on the set of Casablanca!

[wasas]

My wife could speak, read and write English well. She had prepared with courses in Thailand over a number of years. She still took a course in the UK (ESOL with life skills) and gained a lot of benefit from it. Her confidence was boosted and she has friends of many nationalities. Playing cards and gambling is entirely a Thai social activity unless my younger son joins them. He practices his Thai counting skills as he loses money!

She spent a lot of time using a computer course to pass the written driving test and I say again the LitUK test is no more difficult to pass than the driving test. She did not have to do the test but like most Thai's I know would have taken it in her stride!

Settlement fees are high but by the time you factor healthcare and schooling plus the other benefits of living in the UK still seem a bargain to me!

[jojo90]

So I just had a stab at this. As background I've obtained a First in my BSc. (top of the year) and a Distinction in my MSc (2nd in the year).

Didn't get a summary at the end but failed a good number of the questions. I agree with the sentiment here that you need to put in some graft to pass the test. That's fine. But it's supposed to be preparing people for a life in the UK, right? I'd say 90% of the questions are irrelevant to preparing someone for life in the UK.

Perhaps better questions would be centred around our culture, what is acceptable and isn't acceptable (granted there are some in there), but also things like :

a) Where can I buy a bus pass?

Which is the cheapest supermarket?

c) What is the difference between peak, off peak, etc travel?

d) What do I need to do to legally drive a car?

e) What is the minimum wage?

f) What are my rights at work?

g) What things are illegal in this country?

h) What should I do in an emergency?

i) What are my rights as a women?

Perhaps all this is in the study material, however I highly doubt it. How the hell would knowing the name given to a group of French immigrants 200 years ago help someone in the UK? Hell, I don't even think that's in the general GCSE History syllabus.

[durhamboy]

I am not going to repeat my previous posts to answer your points on Thailand vs. UK again, durhamboy.

Neither am I going to attempt to justify visa and LTR fees and the income requirements. My belief that both are too high is a matter of record; despite your attempts to convince that I believe the opposite!

But there is one point I will deal with.

You say that you think anyone should be able to pass LITUK after living and studying in the UK for 5 years. What do you base that on? Whether you would be able to pass it or someone whose first language is not English and who has never previously understood roman script?

I really think that you should stop spouting off about how easy you think things are when you really have had very little practical knowledge about what you consider to be easy. As you have posted before, your wife never had to do an English exam or LITUK for her visa. I am sure she would have passed but then you would have got into the nitty gritty of how difficult this process has become and also possibly the related practical problems that our current system is imposing on people.

My wife and step daughter did, indeed, obtain first ILR and then British citizenship before the introduction of KOLL.

My step daughter was 10 when she and her mother first entered and had no English at all; her school arranged the necessary extra English lessons for her; as is their legal obligation.

My wife could speak and understand English to a reasonable degree; but could not read nor write it.

So she enrolled on an English course, not only to improve her speaking and listening but also to learn to read and write English.

She didn't have to do so for any visa or LTR purpose; she did so voluntarily so that she could improve her employment prospects and integrate better into UK society.

We know many Thais who entered before KOLL and did not bother taking such courses and so improving their English skills.

They have difficulty in finding work.

Any interaction with non Thais requires help from their English spouse/partner; for example they have to get their spouse/partner to make doctor/dentist appointments for them and go with them to these appointments to explain things to them.

They very rarely socialise outside the circle of Thais in our area.

Living in an area with a high population of South Asian origin, I see, and have done for many years, the same for the immigrant spouse/partners, especially women, from that community. Many are now grandparents and still have to take their children or grand children everywhere with them to translate.

Now, you may very well say that these people should have buckled down and learned English, even though they was at the time no legal requirement for them to do so.

I would agree with you; that is exactly what my wife did!

But many, the majority in fact, did not. Hence the need for KOLL and hence my support for it.

We also know many Thais who entered after the introduction of KOLL. All of them passed; not all first time, but they did all pass before they were due to apply for ILR; which for all of them was within 2 years, not the 5 years people have now.

They did so by working at it, both on English courses and at home.

As I have said at least twice before, but you have ignored, if someone is unable to study for and take the tests, LitUK and B1, due to physical or mental disability or age then they are exempt from KOLL.

Unless your wife falls into one of the above exemptions, I can see no reason why she cannot enrol on an appropriate English course to improve her verbal and written English to the (fairly low) standard required to be able to study for and pass both tests.

If there is a valid reason why she cannot do so, I'm sure you'll tell us.

Firstly, I know that you have posted that UK visa fees and income requirements are too high. I don't know where I have said any different. What surprises me is, given that you think these things are too high, you seem to think that Thailand's visa requirements for spouses are as high and as onerous as the UKs. They are not. My main point here is that Thailand allows couples and their families to stay together with the minimum of fuss and expense whereas the UK imposes the onerous hoops and expense and income requirements that we all know about. Therefore there are many instances given by people in this forum where they, their partners and children can live forever in Thailand (albeit renewing every 90 days or so) but those same people cannot live in the UK.

I am not sure why you have seen fit to give us chapter and verse of your wife's and step-daughter's education in the UK. It is good that they are obviously integrating into the UK. As my wife is doing with English lessons etc. You, in my opinion, post all this as a smokescreen to the real issue i.e. because your wife came here before KOLL you have very little practical knowledge of the English test and LITUK and therefore, in my opinion, you should not spout off about how easy you think these things are. For example, when people have asked in this forum for guidance about the English test you have trotted out many times that if an applicant can say simple sentences in English then they should have no problem. SIMPLY NOT TRUE!

Whilst I commend your in-depth knowledge of the visa rules and processes you should not take that as carte blanche to express opinions on things that you have very little experience of.

[durhamboy]

Oh yes so that I am not accused of not addressing your points. I do understand that there is a disability exemption for the LITUK and English tests. Seeing as my wife has no mental or physical disability then I have not looked into the matter.

[wooloomooloo]

Is your wife experiencing difficulty with the revision part of the LitUK test, durhamboy?

[a99az]

I have been out the country since 87 came back with Thai wife last year I tried the online test and got 80% but then again I love English history and that helped. Have now got the new books for my wife to study, however I do find the test to be very wrong as the pass mark is set too high as the average Brit (White resident British Brit) would fail. Why should we expect our foreign wife's husband's to score more than us.

[durhamboy]

Is your wife experiencing difficulty with the revision part of the LitUK test, durhamboy?

Before I answer what on the face of it looks like a ridiculous question, please have the courtesy to explain why you are asking such a question. Thank you.

[wooloomooloo]

Are you helping your wife in her studies, a99az?

[wooloomooloo]

Is your wife experiencing difficulty with the revision part of the LitUK test, durhamboy?

Before I answer what on the face of it looks like a ridiculous question, please have the courtesy to explain why you are asking such a question. Thank you.

A straightforward question, durham.

You can continue with your present line of questioning [bordering on hectoring] or get to the heart of the matter and endeavour to assist your wife in passing the test.

I and my wife would be happy to assist and certain that 7by7 and many others would too, if you so wish.

This thread is going round in circles and of no benefit to anyone in its current form.

I'm more inclined towards practical solutions and the mature solution would be to break the current endless cycle of nonsense and save time by achieving the goal. The rules aren't going to change anytime soon.

What can we do to help?