Stop paying AC costs. New Way.

[gypsyrodeo]

But it's not secret is it? You've let the cat out of the bag.

Since it's no longer a dark technology there can be no harm in revealing exactly how it works and how adding an extra step to the heat transfer process can improve its efficiency.

By the way, my scientific and engineering qualifications are available for anyone to verify should they so desire.

i think I've figured out your true agenda

[Naam]

friend just delivered mine..works like a charm

based on all indications i conclude there's an undisclosed and secret gadget in the unit which nullifies any laws of physics and thermodynamics. consulting my dogs they pointed out that you used the word "charm" and that's why they are convinced that this gadget is a rabbit foot.

[Crossy]

Agenda? Moi?

I simply want to bring new and better cooling technology to the world of hot and sweaty people.

Seriously, there is no doubt that whilst the directed stream of cooled air produced by the Styrofoam marvel will make you feel cooler it is not competing with a whole room A/C.

[gypsyrodeo]

this is my friend choko before he invented the styrofoam ac..look how miserable his former coolant habits must have been..hes so happy now that his room is freezing. styrofoam was the missing ingredient for him to have a better quality life…now before all you conspiracy nuts point to the lavender object in front of him and claim it is jackie kennedys pill box hat…it isn't..its just soap

[gypsyrodeo]

see no resemblance to jackies hat

[gypsyrodeo]

a candid tender moment photo of choko taken right before the invention of the styrofoam ac

[circusman]

@bobo42…you're hilarious! The way you throw around numbers ...

If I didn't see it work I would probably fall for your engineer poseur missive. Very funny stuff

For all of you who would like to take this subject seriously, please note that all my friend does is freeze 6 one liter bottles of water. He takes 2 out at a time and puts them in the styrofoam container. It takes them a couple of hours to melt; when they do, he takes them out, puts them back in the freezer and takes 2 more out, and put them in the styrofoam container and rotates on that schedule.

Remember to place the 2 bottles about 5 inches away from the PVC tube so the air hits on the way out. You'll be shocked on how cold it is….

I could not stand the humidity this would produce.

[Crossy]

@bobo42…you're hilarious! The way you throw around numbers ...

If I didn't see it work I would probably fall for your engineer poseur missive. Very funny stuff

For all of you who would like to take this subject seriously, please note that all my friend does is freeze 6 one liter bottles of water. He takes 2 out at a time and puts them in the styrofoam container. It takes them a couple of hours to melt; when they do, he takes them out, puts them back in the freezer and takes 2 more out, and put them in the styrofoam container and rotates on that schedule.

Remember to place the 2 bottles about 5 inches away from the PVC tube so the air hits on the way out. You'll be shocked on how cold it is….

I could not stand the humidity this would produce.

Actually, since the ice in enclosed in a bottle the humidity would not be increased (condensation on the bottles will reduce the humidity slightly).

The principle is sound, it's just the claims of amazing (impossible) efficiency that grate.

[gypsyrodeo]

@bobo42…you're hilarious! The way you throw around numbers ...

If I didn't see it work I would probably fall for your engineer poseur missive. Very funny stuff

For all of you who would like to take this subject seriously, please note that all my friend does is freeze 6 one liter bottles of water. He takes 2 out at a time and puts them in the styrofoam container. It takes them a couple of hours to melt; when they do, he takes them out, puts them back in the freezer and takes 2 more out, and put them in the styrofoam container and rotates on that schedule.

Remember to place the 2 bottles about 5 inches away from the PVC tube so the air hits on the way out. You'll be shocked on how cold it is….

I could not stand the humidity this would produce.

Actually, since the ice in enclosed in a bottle the humidity would not be increased (condensation on the bottles will reduce the humidity slightly).

The principle is sound, it's just the claims of amazing (impossible) efficiency that grate.

what grates is the styrofoam challenged know it alls..im telling you crossy ..chokos invention is the answer to cancer

[heybruce]

I may have thought of an even simpler way to explain why this won't work. This is "Refrigeration for People Who are Really, Really Challenged by Science":

Any type of refrigeration unit, meaning things like refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners, are devices that take heat from one place and move it to another. That's all they do. This is a key point; refrigeration units can't eliminate heat or in some way make it completely vanish, they can only move it around. In refrigerators and freezers these units take heat from inside the box and moves it outside the box into whatever room they are in, usually the kitchen. Air conditioners take heat from inside a building and move it outside the building. That's why air conditioners are installed on outside walls.

If refrigeration units were 100% efficient the heat they took from one place would exactly equal the heat they dump somewhere else. However no refrigeration units are 100% efficient, there is always waste heat created in the process of moving the heat. This means freezers are dumping more heat into the kitchen than they are taking out of the box. This also means that the heat taken out of water in the freezer is less than the heat dumped into the kitchen. When you run a refrigerator or freezer you are literally running an electric heater; the cold generated on the inside is less than the heat dumped outside the box.

When you move the ice from the freezer into the bedroom and thaw it, you transfer heat from the bedroom to the water, resulting in it changing from solid to liquid state. However this heat removed from the bedroom by melting the ice is less than the heat dumped into the kitchen by the freezer while freezing the ice. You can create variations in heat distribution, and thus temperature, throughout your living space in this way, however by using the freezer to freeze the ice you will still increase the total amount of heat in your living space.

The only way I can think of that this approach can save money is if you have a very poorly designed air conditioning system. For example, if there is no air conditioner in the bedroom and the only alternative way to cool the bedroom is to air condition the entire house, then this ice approach may save electricity if you use it to cool the bedroom when you're in there, and turn off the air conditioner for the rest of the house during this time. This will only work if the electricity used by turning off the air conditioner is greater than the electricity used in freezing the ice. Even then you would be better off getting an air conditioner for the bedroom. Remember, air conditioners take heat from inside the building and dump it outside, freezers generate heat inside the building.

By the way, fans, Styrofoam, bells, whistles, etc. don't change the fact that the freezer is dumping more heat into the living space than it is taking out of its interior. It really is an electric heater. If you want to cool the interior of a building you need something that takes heat from the inside and dumps it outside. You need an air conditioner.

That's it, I'm not going to try any more. If anyone who understands the subject can improve on (make simpler) this explanation, feel free. And I apologize to the purists, in the pursuit of simplicity I was imprecise in terminology.

[uptoyoumyfriend]

i just leave the refrigarator door open!

[heybruce]

i just leave the refrigarator door open!

You're too late with that one. See post #16. And of course post #20 with my incredibly clever reply (ok, maybe not incredibly clever).

[gypsyrodeo]

styrofoam

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Aight, so in summary: this contraption would be a good idea for those who don't have an air conditioner and/or can't/won't install one because they're in rented accommodation and they only really need some cooling in the hot season anyway. It will do a good job cooling a smallish personal space, and often that's just what's needed. But it won't make the Mitsubishi aircon division go out of business.

I did enjoy the discussion though, I especially loved the "I don't think you understand the science of styrofoam" comeback. (Even better in Daffy Duck voice; there's some cooling to be had just pronouncing that. )

Edited April 26, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[vagabond48]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

Edited April 26, 2014 by vagabond48

[vagabond48]

"the second law of thermodynamics"…might make you feel smart to use this type of terminology but it doesn't apply to the styrofoam ac..my eyes and body temperature did not lie..and i just double checked to be sure..his electric bill is WAY down

I am not an "engineer poseur", I am an engineer with qualifications in physics and thermodynamics (and electrical and electronic engineering).

In which particular universe are you situated such that the basic laws of physics (thermodynamics) do not apply?

If your friend moderated his aircon use to the same periods and space that his cooler is used he would see even greater savings.

Temperature gradient achieved? Timings? Volume cooled? Actual total energy use?

If these devices are really more efficient overall than 'real' aircons, why are we not all using them?

Because most people want an easy and inconspicuous solution.

[Bmouthboyo]

Just run the AC cheap Charlie!

[gypsyrodeo]

BREAKING NEWS…my friend Choko (the inventor of the amazing styrofoam ac) just phoned and has reported that he now is working on a solar panel that will provide the power for his refrigerator..hes making me one as well..any thoughts?..ill keep everyone posted..it might be technology similar to this

[Bmouthboyo]

Breaking news? Is this a wind up? Lol

My mate dangerous Dave says "turn the bloody AC on and stop filling the sodding freezer up"

Edited April 26, 2014 by Bmouthboyo

[Thaddeus]

My dog can't read so I had to read this thread out to him.

He would have laughed his balls off if he had any.

[Naam]

Captain Picard! long range sensors detected the approach of the famous inventor Choko who would like to revolutionarise the propulsion system of the Enterprise with a medium he invented which he calls Sty-Ro-Foam. what are your orders Sir?

[maswov]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

It doesn't really matter how full it is, rather the amount of heat that is put in the box. For example if you have a plate of food at room temperature, the amount of heat is less than the same weight of food just after cooking. Keeping the freezer full does reduce the volume of air that is exchanged when the door opens thus being less air to cool, however the heat does immediately start to transfer to items inside the freezer. Surface area is a factor in the amount of heat transferred as well, so many items with a lot of surface area would would allow for greater heat transfer into the box.

You are correct that the unit will cycle on and off. Every time a motor turns on there is a spike in power, it is brief but it does increase peak power and will increase energy consumption. ACs and refrigerators with variable speed compressors will minimize that.

[gypsyrodeo]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

It doesn't really matter how full it is, rather the amount of heat that is put in the box. For example if you have a plate of food at room temperature, the amount of heat is less than the same weight of food just after cooking. Keeping the freezer full does reduce the volume of air that is exchanged when the door opens thus being less air to cool, however the heat does immediately start to transfer to items inside the freezer. Surface area is a factor in the amount of heat transferred as well, so many items with a lot of surface area would would allow for greater heat transfer into the box.

You are correct that the unit will cycle on and off. Every time a motor turns on there is a spike in power, it is brief but it does increase peak power and will increase energy consumption. ACs and refrigerators with variable speed compressors will minimize that.

this is closer to how i saw it..so many on this thread are styrofoam haters and don't take me serious..i appreciate your knowledge and respect..your gravitas was greatly needed..thank you

[heybruce]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

A freezer that is full of frozen stuff will stay cold longer if the power goes out than a freezer with little in it, for much the same reason that a big block of ice takes longer to thaw than a small block of ice.

Two gallons of frozen water will not significantly affect the power use of the freezer, but routinely taking out frozen jugs of water and replacing them with much warmer jugs of liquid water will significantly drive up the energy use of the freezer.

[heybruce]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

It doesn't really matter how full it is, rather the amount of heat that is put in the box. For example if you have a plate of food at room temperature, the amount of heat is less than the same weight of food just after cooking. Keeping the freezer full does reduce the volume of air that is exchanged when the door opens thus being less air to cool, however the heat does immediately start to transfer to items inside the freezer. Surface area is a factor in the amount of heat transferred as well, so many items with a lot of surface area would would allow for greater heat transfer into the box.

You are correct that the unit will cycle on and off. Every time a motor turns on there is a spike in power, it is brief but it does increase peak power and will increase energy consumption. ACs and refrigerators with variable speed compressors will minimize that.

this is closer to how i saw it..so many on this thread are styrofoam haters and don't take me serious..i appreciate your knowledge and respect..your gravitas was greatly needed..thank you

I have mild concerns about the environmental damage styrofoam causes when disposed of improperly, but to say I hate it is a stretch. I don't take you seriously because you assume a one time fluctuation in a friends electricity bill is proof that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.

[gypsyrodeo]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

A freezer that is full of frozen stuff will stay cold longer if the power goes out than a freezer with little in it, for much the same reason that a big block of ice takes longer to thaw than a small block of ice.

Two gallons of frozen water will not significantly affect the power use of the freezer, but routinely taking out frozen jugs of water and replacing them with much warmer jugs of liquid water will significantly drive up the energy use of the freezer.

i knew it..this is why there are advantages to using the styrofoam ac,,the bottle replacements don't use near the electricity as running the ac all day…because the bottles are placed in STYROFOAM it lakes a long time for them to melt :) vindication…i can't put into words how good it feels..thank you bro..now i know how sir isaac newton must have felt..his findings were scorned at first..exactly like mine were.

[gypsyrodeo]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

It doesn't really matter how full it is, rather the amount of heat that is put in the box. For example if you have a plate of food at room temperature, the amount of heat is less than the same weight of food just after cooking. Keeping the freezer full does reduce the volume of air that is exchanged when the door opens thus being less air to cool, however the heat does immediately start to transfer to items inside the freezer. Surface area is a factor in the amount of heat transferred as well, so many items with a lot of surface area would would allow for greater heat transfer into the box.

You are correct that the unit will cycle on and off. Every time a motor turns on there is a spike in power, it is brief but it does increase peak power and will increase energy consumption. ACs and refrigerators with variable speed compressors will minimize that.

this is closer to how i saw it..so many on this thread are styrofoam haters and don't take me serious..i appreciate your knowledge and respect..your gravitas was greatly needed..thank you

I have mild concerns about the environmental damage styrofoam causes when disposed of improperly, but to say I hate it is a stretch. I don't take you seriously because you assume a one time fluctuation in a friends electricity bill is proof that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong.

i am shocked and a bit hurt that you don't take me seriously..im very confident about the revolutionary cooling principles used by the styrofoam ac..im staking my reputation on it

[Thaddeus]

Regarding refrigerators and freezers, I was always under the impression that it was more efficient to keep them as full as possible since the units continue cycle on and off. If your freezer/frig had the room to store 1 or 2 gallon jugs then would it cost less than running an AC?

I do agree that it would be silly to purchase a freezer just to make ice since it would probably be cheaper to buy ice directly from ice making shops.

I for one only use fans both here, and back in the days of NYC hot summers. I believe a major part of the discomfort healthy and fit people experience is that they don't try to acclimate to the indoor temperature even if it means using the AC closer to 75-80F. I can easily bicycle in the afternoon in this weather because I'm not going from an AC room of 70-75F to outdoor temps of 90F+.

Back in NYC during the summer heat, I always wondered how many more degrees the city gets due to the heat produced by huge number of ACs unless the AC produces the same amount of heat as it extracts.

A freezer that is full of frozen stuff will stay cold longer if the power goes out than a freezer with little in it, for much the same reason that a big block of ice takes longer to thaw than a small block of ice.

Two gallons of frozen water will not significantly affect the power use of the freezer, but routinely taking out frozen jugs of water and replacing them with much warmer jugs of liquid water will significantly drive up the energy use of the freezer.

i knew it..this is why there are advantages to using the styrofoam ac,,the bottle replacements don't use near the electricity as running the ac all day…because the bottles are placed in STYROFOAM it lakes a long time for them to melt vindication…i can't put into words how good it feels..thank you bro..now i know how sir isaac newton must have felt..his findings were scorned at first..exactly like mine were.

I think you have just created a new invention, the perpetual motion device, Sir Isaac Newton spinning in his grave.

[breaker]

I has made simple calculation for small condo room 32 sq. meters with height of wall 3 meters (V_air = S*h = 32*3 = 96 m³)

I suppose, we would like to cool air in this room from 32 to 26 degree (Δt_air = t_air1-t_air2 = 32-26=6°C).

I suppose, we would like to heat ice from 0 to 20 degree (Δt_water = t_water2-t_water1 = 20-0=20°C).

And we would like to know how much bottles of ice we need?

This is heat balance equation:

Q_air = Q_water

C_air*m_air*Δt_air = C_water*m_water*Δt_water

m_water = (C_air*m_air*Δt_air)/(C_water*Δt_water)

m_water = (C_air*V_air*ρ_air*Δt_air)/(C_water*Δt_water) = (1,0061*96*1,2*6)/(4,19*20) = 8,2 kg of ice

So, for cooling small condo room, we need about 6-7 bottles 1.25L of ice.

[gypsyrodeo]

I has made simple calculation for small condo room 32 sq. meters with height of wall 3 meters (V_air = S*h = 32*3 = 96 m³)

I suppose, we would like to cool air in this room from 32 to 26 degree (Δt_air = t_air1-t_air2 = 32-26=6°C).

I suppose, we would like to heat ice from 0 to 20 degree (Δt_water = t_water2-t_water1 = 20-0=20°C).

And we would like to know how much bottles of ice we need?

This is heat balance equation:

Q_air = Q_water

C_air*m_air*Δt_air = C_water*m_water*Δt_water

m_water = (C_air*m_air*Δt_air)/(C_water*Δt_water)

m_water = (C_air*V_air*ρ_air*Δt_air)/(C_water*Δt_water) = (1,0061*96*1,2*6)/(4,19*20) = 8,2 kg of ice

So, for cooling small condo room, we need about 6-7 bottles 1.25L of ice.

you nailed it..im using 6…there are about 4 hours a day (between 3-7am that the ice has melted and I'm asleep and don't change out..but the room is cool at that time because the styrofoam ac did such a good job the other 20 hours and its cooler at night AND its still cranking against bottles with cool water in them making the air cooler than a fan EVEN AFTER ICE HAS MELTED…freezing 6 bottles of water a day vs. ac on all day..give me a break..styrofoam ac is much much better value