US retirement extension, annual income/12 vs. "monthly"

[chubby]

hello, I am aware that as a US person, I would go to embassy and vouche that I have the 65k THB/month income ; and may or may not be asked to prove it at Immigration.

my question is: Is there anyone whom is printing out a statement of their annual "income" (dividends+interest bond coupon value)(65000thb x 12) and using that instead of a "pension" as their proof, if/when asked for it, instead of strickly the monthly ?

and/or is this not worth the risk, or how do BKK and CM immigration interpret whatever the statute says , please ?

as my friends "income" varies, but overall is well above the 65k THB; it peaks in December when mutual funds distribute their capital gains for the year .

[JLCrab]

The wording on the US Income affidavit states:

-- I also affirm that I receive US$ __ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

One of your 'other' sources might be a wash account wherein you transfer from your various other accounts 65K (ie the US dollar equivalent as in the affidavit) every month and -- if ever asked by Thai Immigration -- you could show a statement denoting exactly that.

[Strangebrew]

As a US citizen myself I just take statement from my pension plan to US embassy they Stamp it then get visa for retirement now getting SS also so make well over required amount.

[Strangebrew]

A federal income tax return might help as proof also

[wayned]

As a US citizen myself I just take statement from my pension plan to US embassy they Stamp it then get visa for retirement now getting SS also so make well over required amount.

As a US citizen I fill out an income affidavit that is a sworm statement affirming that I receive US$ __ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources. It is then signed and notorized and no proof of income is required.

I don't know what you are getting "stamped" but I once asked them about certifying my yearly pension statement as a true copy. They said that they do not do that as they don't have access to the records. I take my pension statement along with my SSA statement, not stamped, with me to immmigration but have never had to show either, or any other proof of income, since my first retirement extension 8 years ago.

[NancyL]

Hubby uses the Income Letter method. He fills out the letter at the consulate with the amount he receives from SS and a private pension every month. But for "proof" he takes the 1040 and 1099 statements to CM Immigration with him. He's never been asked to show any "proof" to anyone, but it wouldn't prove how much he receives each month, just how much he received for the previous calendar year. And actually that income letter isn't his total income, just the amount from the two pensions -- public and private. The rest of the income fluctuates and isn't pension income.

Of course, there's no need to ever show that money comes into Thailand, but he does bring our joint Bangkok Bank passbook to show enough comes in to demonstrate a reasonable standard of living here. Again, he's never been asked to show anything, but I think they do like to see people come in toting some documents and folders, like they've done some preparation ahead of the appointment.

[ubonjoe]

Phuket is the only immigration I know of that wants back up proof now. I don't recall any recent reports of any other office asking.

I have never been asked for it. But I do have a bank book that shows my money coming in if they did ask.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Hubby uses the Income Letter method. He fills out the letter at the consulate with the amount he receives from SS and a private pension every month. But for "proof" he takes the 1040 and 1099 statements to CM Immigration with him. He's never been asked to show any "proof" to anyone, but it wouldn't prove how much he receives each month, just how much he received for the previous calendar year. And actually that income letter isn't his total income, just the amount from the two pensions -- public and private. The rest of the income fluctuates and isn't pension income.

Nancy, your comment above seems to be interpreting Immigration's financial requirements for retirement extensions a bit more narrowly than it actually is.

The regulation language references pension income, but also other income as well. Likewise, the U.S. consulate letter refers to income from the U.S. government and other sources.

Thus, for Thai Immigration purposes, a pension from the U.S. government is no different from a private pension. And pension income in general is no different than any range of other monthly incomes, whether it be from CD dividends, stock dividends, income from rental property, etc etc.

All of those would legitimately count toward meeting Immigration's 65,000 baht per month requirement. And AFAIK, the amounts of the total income can fluctuate, or individual components of that can fluctuate month to month, just so long as the total each month still at least meets the 65K requirement.

The question the OP raised is a different one, though, and that's whether Thai Immigration would accept annualized equivalent monthly income instead of regular monthly income -- for example, stock dividends that are paid quarterly instead of monthly.

That's a good and legitimate question, and I think we generally don't know the answer to that... Because most of the time, Immigration simply accepts the U.S. Consulate income letters without delving into the details of just how one's reported income figures are derived. They certainly could delve, though, if they wanted to.

Your cited example of hubby bringing 1040 and 1099 documents to Immigration as backup documents is a good example. As you noted above, those documents don't show anything about one's monthly income, but they do show one's annual income, from which you can derive a monthly average. But those docs wouldn't in any way prove that hubby met the 65K monthly requirement for each of the 12 prior months.

The "letter of the law" for the Immigration regulation clearly says "monthly income" -- not income averaged out over a year to monthly equivalents. But whether they'd give grief to someone who really meets the annualized monthly income average, but may not meet the requirement each and every month, I don't know. Obviously, it would be safer to meet the monthly income threshold every month -- month to month.

[thepool]

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Phuket is the only immigration I know of that wants back up proof now. I don't recall any recent reports of any other office asking.

I have never been asked for it. But I do have a bank book that shows my money coming in if they did ask.

Recently renewed my extension of stay at the Phuket office. I was not asked to evidence my income, maybe because I did not present an affidavit as "proof" of income.

[ubonjoe]

It could be they changed policy since the last report I saw also.

[thepool]

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It could be they changed policy since the last report I saw also.

I am aware of some who's Embassies provide an Affidavit being challenged by the Phuket immigration service.

One in particular was refused an extension as he was unable to provide evidence to support the sworn claim.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

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Phuket is the only immigration I know of that wants back up proof now. I don't recall any recent reports of any other office asking.

I have never been asked for it. But I do have a bank book that shows my money coming in if they did ask.

Recently renewed my extension of stay at the Phuket office. I was not asked to evidence my income, maybe because I did not present an affidavit as "proof" of income.

They only ask for income proof if you were claiming monthly income to meet the 65,000 baht requirement, and documenting it with an income affidavit from your Consulate.

If you were meeting the financial requirement by showing 800,000 baht in a Thai bank, then they'd ask for different things... bank letter, bank book, etc.

[NancyL]

TallGuy--Hubby just doesn't think it's anyone's business for him to have to explain income beyond the regular monthly gov't and private pension. Those two sources of income more than meet the Thai retirement visa requirements and he shouldn't have to explain the other sources of income to anyone. Yes, we're probably making it more complex that it needs to be, and yes those other sources of income would "count" if needed, but in his case they're not needed, so why "count" them since they're not pensions or retirement income in the traditional sense of the word.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Nancy, makes perfect sense... and I agree.

The only purpose of my prior post was to make sure other readers here did NOT come away with the mistaken impression that ONLY government or private pension income like your husband's could be counted toward meeting Immigration's income requirement.

As stated above, a wide range of different kinds of income can be counted, even those that are not pensions.

[JLCrab]

The Income Affidavit form as provided by the US Embassy states that you affirm you receive US$ X from various sources EVERY MONTH. Rather than get into a discussion on how much leeway you are allowed when you so swear and you actually do not receive $US X EVERY MONTH, creating a wash account as I described in Post #2 allows you to do exactly that.

Such would create an easy corroboration for Thai Immigration officials when they see a bank statement:

MAY 2013 $2300

JUN 2013 $2300

JUL 2013 $2300

AUG 2013 $2300

etc.

[chubby]

Mr. Crab

Am I correct when you mention a "wash" account, is that simply transferring money back and forth between to Independent Banks ? As, I'm not sure that would be technically "income"

cheers

The Income Affidavit form as provided by the US Embassy states that you affirm you receive US$ X from various sources EVERY MONTH. Rather than get into a discussion on how much leeway you are allowed when you so swear and you actually do not receive $US X EVERY MONTH, creating a wash account as I described in Post #2 allows you to do exactly that.

Such would create an easy corroboration for Thai Immigration officials when they see a bank statement:

MAY 2013 $2300

JUN 2013 $2300

JUL 2013 $2300

AUG 2013 $2300

etc.

[sfokevin]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It could be they changed policy since the last report I saw also.

I am aware of some who's Embassies provide an Affidavit being challenged by the Phuket immigration service.

One in particular was refused an extension as he was unable to provide evidence to support the sworn claim.

I can see them possibly questioning anyone who is 50-62 years old and the closer to 50 the higher the probability of being asked... But after 62 Immigration is aware that all US citizens are eligible for Social Security and I doubt it is asked...

[JLCrab]

Mr. Crab

Am I correct when you mention a "wash" account, is that simply transferring money back and forth between to Independent Banks ? As, I'm not sure that would be technically "income"

cheers

The Income Affidavit form as provided by the US Embassy states that you affirm you receive US$ X from various sources EVERY MONTH. Rather than get into a discussion on how much leeway you are allowed when you so swear and you actually do not receive $US X EVERY MONTH, creating a wash account as I described in Post #2 allows you to do exactly that.

Such would create an easy corroboration for Thai Immigration officials when they see a bank statement:

MAY 2013 $2300

JUN 2013 $2300

JUL 2013 $2300

AUG 2013 $2300

etc.

No -- I am suggesting that a monthly transfer be set-up from the mutual fund account (as mentioned in Post #1) to a bank account such that there is a record EVERY month of an ACH transfer from say Fidelity to a bank account in an amount corresponding to the 65K baht requirement.

You supply Thai Immigration with a sworn affidavit from the US Embassy that you receive $US X every month. One should be prepared that the IMM official will ask someday ask to see corroboration that one receives that amount every month and not have to go into a song-and-dance routine as to why you feel it's OK to receive otherwise.

[JLCrab]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

It could be they changed policy since the last report I saw also.

I am aware of some who's Embassies provide an Affidavit being challenged by the Phuket immigration service.

One in particular was refused an extension as he was unable to provide evidence to support the sworn claim.

I can see them possibly questioning anyone who is 50-62 years old and the closer to 50 the higher the probability of being asked... But after 62 Immigration is aware that all US citizens are eligible for Social Security and I doubt it is asked...

According to 'Social Security Basic Facts April 2, 2014' the 38 million retired workers in USA receive, as of December, 2013, an average benefit of $1,294 per month which is about $1000 shy of the 65,000 baht monthly requirement for extension of stay based upon retirement. http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/basicfact.htm

[chubby]

so one of the "various sources" can be yourself , in your interpretation ?

Mr. Crab

Am I correct when you mention a "wash" account, is that simply transferring money back and forth between to Independent Banks ? As, I'm not sure that would be technically "income"

cheers

The Income Affidavit form as provided by the US Embassy states that you affirm you receive US$ X from various sources EVERY MONTH. Rather than get into a discussion on how much leeway you are allowed when you so swear and you actually do not receive $US X EVERY MONTH, creating a wash account as I described in Post #2 allows you to do exactly that.

Such would create an easy corroboration for Thai Immigration officials when they see a bank statement:

MAY 2013 $2300

JUN 2013 $2300

JUL 2013 $2300

AUG 2013 $2300

etc.

No -- I am suggesting that a monthly transfer be set-up from the mutual fund account (as mentioned in Post #1) to a bank account such that there is a record EVERY month of an ACH transfer from say Fidelity to a bank account in an amount corresponding to the 65K baht requirement.

You supply Thai Immigration with a sworn affidavit from the US Embassy that you receive $US X every month. One should be prepared that the IMM official will ask someday ask to see corroboration that one receives that amount every month and not have to go into a song-and-dance routine as to why you feel it's OK to receive otherwise.

[JLCrab]

From "Application for Retirement extension as of 3 December 2008" as received from Thai Immigration (English translation with Thai original):

4. In the case of monthly Income: Applicant must provide evidence of a monthly income with a minimum of 65,000 baht. ... Income could be pension, interest, investment payoff, etc.

[Strangebrew]

Been there done that here how it works I brought in letter from pension plan stating I make 2700.00 USD per month Plus letter from SSA stating I get 1615.00 a month from so total of 135,000 Thai baht a month well above required amount. Get embassy stamp of approval on it good to go. Remember your signing on to an official doc. if you lie that is fraud.

[JLCrab]

Been there done that here how it works I brought in letter from pension plan stating I make 2700.00 USD per month Plus letter from SSA stating I get 1615.00 a month from so total of 135,000 Thai baht a month well above required amount. Get embassy stamp of approval on it good to go. Remember your signing on to an official doc. if you lie that is fraud.

The US Embassy will not issue a 'stamp of approval' to any pension or SSA documents. They will only issue an affidavit as to your sworn statement before a consular official. The information I posted above is only in the case that Thai Immigration asks for corroborating material.

[chubby]

How about a Fidelity Money Market (or short term bond mutual fund) account transfering to <your bank> ? Would you consider the MM to be an "investment payoff" ?

Then do you buy back that "investment" after it registers in <your bank> ?

I would think if that were the case it would not be difficult to demonstrate adequate monthly income for anyone and everyone....

Been there done that here how it works I brought in letter from pension plan stating I make 2700.00 USD per month Plus letter from SSA stating I get 1615.00 a month from so total of 135,000 Thai baht a month well above required amount. Get embassy stamp of approval on it good to go. Remember your signing on to an official doc. if you lie that is fraud.

The US Embassy will not issue a 'stamp of approval' to any pension or SSA documents. They will only issue an affidavit as to your sworn statement before a consular official. The information I posted above is only in the case that Thai Immigration asks for corroborating material.

[JLCrab]

I realize where this is heading: You are suggesting that you could withdraw the same 65,000 baht and re-deposit it each month like a revolving door. All I will say is in the situation I have for myself that is not possible. You can try it if you like.

You take your US affidavit to the Thai Immigration once a year. You swear on the affidavit that you receive an amount EVERY month -- not average per month, not a yearly distribution divided by 12. I am only concerned as to what point -- if ever -- someone at Thai Immigration asks for me to provide the information exactly as sworn to on the affidavit.

[ItDontMeanAThing]

I have no idea how suspicious a Thai immigration official might be of the 'monthly transfer' method. Seems to me one could make this more believable by doing two things. First is don't use a round figure. Every pension check i've seen was unrounded, e.g. $1993.23 vs $2000. Second is to make two wire transfers a year out of that account which matches wire transfers into one's Thai bank account. Overkill? Maybe.

[ubonjoe]

My social security payments are rounded down there is no pennies shown on the direct deposit.

[thailiketoo]

Been there done that here how it works I brought in letter from pension plan stating I make 2700.00 USD per month Plus letter from SSA stating I get 1615.00 a month from so total of 135,000 Thai baht a month well above required amount. Get embassy stamp of approval on it good to go. Remember your signing on to an official doc. if you lie that is fraud.

What is a embassy stamp of approval?