Can we shrink fat by cutting off it's blood supply?

[Jingthing]

The science is clearly not fully resolved. Mr RB cites a source from 2009 and tries to act like this is some kind of locker room pissing contest, where there needs to be a winner and loser. (Perhaps testosterone poisoning?) That's not my game.

I realize there is personal dislike between Mr RB and myself but sorry this kind of game is simply not interesting or productive to help people impacted by obesity.

Back to the OP and that list of foods.

It's interesting that similar foods seem to come up plenty of times supporting other food choice programs to promote health, and health of course includes weight control.

So without being a scientist, and sorry I can NEVER speak at a high scientific level any more than I can repair a car engine or write an annual corporate report, there might be some CLUES in that list to help us along with our quest for better health. That includes PREVENTION of obesity of course ... but for many reading this forum it is too late for that.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[h90]

Unfortunately, I tried just about everything with weight loss. the only thing that has worked for me and my family is good old fashioned exercise that is a minimum of 30min, 3 to 5 times a week and cutting out the junk food.

unless you get fat removed from your body with surgery, fat cells only expand and retract with the amount of fat in them. you must use up the fat inside those cells to shrink them, but they are always there.

good luck shrinking those fat cells!

Well it always boils down to eat less than you use....Different styles of diets make it easier or more difficult (cutting away the carbohydrates makes it easy) having some exercises makes it easier.

Well the junk food is junk.....

Jingthing is on a quest to find a magic solution that allows him to eat a lot and still get slimmer. So far he didn't find something....That causes endless discussions......

[Jingthing]

...

Jingthing is on a quest to find a magic solution that allows him to eat a lot and still get slimmer. So far he didn't find something....That causes endless discussions......

I am sick and tired at your personal dirt throwing at me, now on multiple threads.

Your charges are a total lie.

Please stick with the topic content and not your personal attacks.

As far as "endless" discussions, dude, this is an internet DISCUSSION FORUM.

Of course that is the idea here ... to discuss stuff.

But your endless efforts to diminish me personally based on total lies ... JUST STOP IT.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[partington]

Your opinion has been expressed. I would still like feedback from actual scientists.

http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2009/01/28/zafgens-big-idea-fight-fat-by-cutting-off-its-blood-supply/

His Ideas are far from mainstream, meaning just theoretical and not proven.

Also there seems to be some confusion here as what it says in that article is to make sure no new fat can be deposited in the fat cells. Then he assumes that the body will burn it off.

That is already different from shrinking.. (read the article its confusing).

This is a bit more logical keeping the door locked so no extra fat can get in fat cells, opposed to locking the fat in and hoping it shrinks.

Seems i was RIGHT poor JT.

So this probably wont help obese as this is to prevent addition of fat (if his theory is true and the body really does burn it off and not find other ways to store it)

Zafgen’s technique is different than those underlying all the other anti-obesity drugs in clinical trials now. Most such treatments are designed to work on receptors in the brain, making people feel full, or to block the absorption of fat. Zafgen’s drugs, on the other hand, are built on the belief that if you cut off the growth of blood vessels supplying the body’s fatty parts (aka adipose tissue), then they will shrink. Instead of storing excess calories as fat the body will find some other way to burn them off, like by fidgeting.

I am a scientist.

I must admit that I have not looked at the original video, partly through lack of time and partly through, to be honest, complete disbelief in the idea that the guy in the video is not a con artist. This is because of the concept that eating certain foods can be antiangiogenic in any meaningfully therapeutic way. Once I look at the video, I will come back and apologise if I've been too sceptical (scepticism is not wrong but exercising it before actually looking at the video probably is).

As to the scientific concept of using antiangiogenesis as a treatment for cancer, this is a very mainstream and scientifically well grounded idea, pioneered by discoveries by scientists like Judah Folkmann. The idea that this could also be applied to fat cells (in principle!) is also plausible.

The basis is that cells that are suffering oxygen deprivation secrete natural compounds that stimulate the growth of new blood vessels. VEGF is the most well known one, though there are at least 20.

The reason they do this is that all cells need oxygen ( and nutrients eg glucose) to live. The faster a cell is metabolising or dividing the more oxygen it needs, and the more they secrete these factors to ask for new blood vessels to grow into them. Cancer cells are the fastest growing and most active cells and desperately need oxygen to sustain their massive rate of division. If you block these angiogenic signals new tumors will die through lack of oxygen.

Robbiok is wrong in principle - fat cells deprived of a blood supply would simply die through lack of oxygen, no energy burning or any metabolic function can occur in these cells if they do not get enough oxygen to live. In principle once a fat cell mass got beyond a certain minimal size, say a thimble (I don't know), antiangiogenesis would prevent new blood vessels supplying its interior , and it would not be able to grow.

However the angiogenic program is complex, controlled by many factors in a specific sequence, and differs for different tissue types. An antiangiogenic treatment

like a diet, that didn't depend on the development of specific therapeutic compounds designed to block specific steps in this process, seems to me so unlikely to do anything that I am sceptical.

Moreover angiogenesis is really essential for normal bodily growth and wound healing for example, and you would not want to prevent this on a sustained basis in a whole body way. It would be bad.

So I sense a quack....

[robblok]

@partington

I am sure you know more as me so I am going to ask some specific questions.

What happens if a fat cell dies when deprived of oxygen ? I mean what happens with the energy stored in there does it disappear.

And thank you I never knew fat cells needed oxygen too, i saw it as just a storage of energy.

I found this whole thing also reeking os quack, many obese people love to believe all those new things and wait for the wonder pill to arrive.

[Jingthing]

To be clear Dr. Lee's focus is on cancer not obesity and such therapy is accepted for cancer. He is not selling a therapy for obesity which will be clear when you watch the video. Thanks for the scientific feedback! Above any expectations. Is this doc a quack? Possibly but I am not convinced either way.

To add I think Lee isn't suggesting these foods cure obesity but rather that eating them may be helpful but that research on more targeted medical therapies for obesity based on the blood vessel approach are needed.

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Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[h90]

@partington

I am sure you know more as me so I am going to ask some specific questions.

What happens if a fat cell dies when deprived of oxygen ? I mean what happens with the energy stored in there does it disappear.

And thank you I never knew fat cells needed oxygen too, i saw it as just a storage of energy.

I found this whole thing also reeking os quack, many obese people love to believe all those new things and wait for the wonder pill to arrive.

Every living cell needs oxygen (if we keep normal human conditions and not some bacteria). But as partington told. cancer cells need a lot. While fat cells need very little. So it is a good question if it is even possible to cut them off from the small supply they need?

And yes good question: the fat doesn't disappear....what is happening with it considering there is no blood supply there.

[robblok]

@partington

I am sure you know more as me so I am going to ask some specific questions.

What happens if a fat cell dies when deprived of oxygen ? I mean what happens with the energy stored in there does it disappear.

And thank you I never knew fat cells needed oxygen too, i saw it as just a storage of energy.

I found this whole thing also reeking os quack, many obese people love to believe all those new things and wait for the wonder pill to arrive.

Every living cell needs oxygen (if we keep normal human conditions and not some bacteria). But as partington told. cancer cells need a lot. While fat cells need very little. So it is a good question if it is even possible to cut them off from the small supply they need?

And yes good question: the fat doesn't disappear....what is happening with it considering there is no blood supply there.

Still its useless if the fat stays there. Anyway learned something new about oxygen and fat cells. I was thinking more along the lines of blood flow as a transport mechanism to get fat into the fat cells and out of it. I did not think of killing it as i saw it as a storage place not a living cell.

Anyway Id love to hear what happens if the fat cell dies.. how does its mass go away.

[Jingthing]

If the cell has shrunk how is that useless? Of course it's subject to expanding again but we kind of know about that problem. Once obese you've got a lifetime issue even if thinner.

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[transam]

For the really fat guys/gals they can have an operation to reduce the stomach to the size of an egg. So, they cannot eat much. Body then educates itself to use the fat. All that is left is skin that can be cut away.

[Jingthing]

For the really fat guys/gals they can have an operation to reduce the stomach to the size of an egg. So, they cannot eat much. Body then educates itself to use the fat. All that is left is skin that can be cut away.

That's an entirely different subject and only medically suited to the very obese. Also it is no panacea either. The end result for most is still obese but less obese.

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[partington]

@partington

I am sure you know more as me so I am going to ask some specific questions.

What happens if a fat cell dies when deprived of oxygen ? I mean what happens with the energy stored in there does it disappear.

And thank you I never knew fat cells needed oxygen too, i saw it as just a storage of energy.

I found this whole thing also reeking os quack, many obese people love to believe all those new things and wait for the wonder pill to arrive.

Ok, there's a difference between antioangiogenic therapy to prevent tumour growth, and antiangiogenic treatment to "destroy" existing fat cells.

The point of antiangiogenic treatment is that it prevents new blood vessel formation, it doesn't destroy existing blood vessels. It would do nothing to existing fat deposits because they already have enough blood vessels. If it did actually work at all, it would preserve the status quo, so the fat deposits could not get any bigger. That's all. They wouldn't shrink unless you burnt off the calories.

For tumours antiangiogenesis is effective because in cancer, cells break off and travel in the bloodstream to new sites, then start to divide to make new tumours , i.e. metastasis, which is its most frightening aspect. However once these new tumours get to be bigger than a few mm the cells inside can't get enough oxygen- the ones outside are blocking them . So the cells inside begin to secrete signals for new vessels to form, and once they grow new vessels the tumours can expand massively. Antiangiogenic treatment will stop these new tumours dead, at a few harmless mm. They wouldn't even die, they would just be harmless.

But for fat it's not so good: existing fat would stay exactly as it was, and (if this really worked) no new fat would form. However to get rid of existing fat you'd still need to burn it off with exercise. And if you had prevented new fat forming, then fat you eat wouldn't disappear- it would simply build up in your liver or blood, causing all sorts of health problems unless it was burnt off.

It's like if you bought a lot of coal to heat your house - you could lock the door to your coal cellar, but then you'd have to put it somewhere else , in the corridors, on the stairs, in the bath... The only way to get rid of it would be to use it up.

In small amounts cells are dying all the time in your body- they are eaten up and disposed of by white cells called macrophages. But all the components have to go somewhere: burnt up, changed into something else, or excreted.

[Jingthing]

It may be this approach for fat is much more relevant for prevention not treatment of obesity. As far as the spin of my OP perhaps that has incorrectly led some people to call Lee a quack. I defend that spin due to the subject area of this forum which is not cancer.

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[Jingthing]

The input from poster Partington is massively appreciated!!!!!

One can always hope for such informed input but its folly to ever expect it.

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Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

@partington

I am sure you know more as me so I am going to ask some specific questions.

What happens if a fat cell dies when deprived of oxygen ? I mean what happens with the energy stored in there does it disappear.

And thank you I never knew fat cells needed oxygen too, i saw it as just a storage of energy.

I found this whole thing also reeking os quack, many obese people love to believe all those new things and wait for the wonder pill to arrive.

Ok, there's a difference between antioangiogenic therapy to prevent tumour growth, and antiangiogenic treatment to "destroy" existing fat cells.

The point of antiangiogenic treatment is that it prevents new blood vessel formation, it doesn't destroy existing blood vessels. It would do nothing to existing fat deposits because they already have enough blood vessels. If it did actually work at all, it would preserve the status quo, so the fat deposits could not get any bigger. That's all. They wouldn't shrink unless you burnt off the calories.

For tumours antiangiogenesis is effective because in cancer, cells break off and travel in the bloodstream to new sites, then start to divide to make new tumours , i.e. metastasis, which is its most frightening aspect. However once these new tumours get to be bigger than a few mm the cells inside can't get enough oxygen- the ones outside are blocking them . So the cells inside begin to secrete signals for new vessels to form, and once they grow new vessels the tumours can expand massively. Antiangiogenic treatment will stop these new tumours dead, at a few harmless mm. They wouldn't even die, they would just be harmless.

But for fat it's not so good: existing fat would stay exactly as it was, and (if this really worked) no new fat would form. However to get rid of existing fat you'd still need to burn it off with exercise. And if you had prevented new fat forming, then fat you eat wouldn't disappear- it would simply build up in your liver or blood, causing all sorts of health problems unless it was burnt off.

It's like if you bought a lot of coal to heat your house - you could lock the door to your coal cellar, but then you'd have to put it somewhere else , in the corridors, on the stairs, in the bath... The only way to get rid of it would be to use it up.

In small amounts cells are dying all the time in your body- they are eaten up and disposed of by white cells called macrophages. But all the components have to go somewhere: burnt up, changed into something else, or excreted.

Yes is basically what i understood too from the article i posted. Only thing i missed was that fat needed oxygen too. I also did not think it was a good idea to have the fat flowing in your veins unless it would be excreted.

Thanks for the extra details here its good to learn more, I would not mind a magic cure as it would help a lot and me too. I like good food but I limit myself to stay in shape. If it were up to me id have a chocolate diet

[robblok]

It may be this approach for fat is much more relevant for prevention not treatment of obesity. As far as the spin of my OP perhaps that has incorrectly led some people to call Lee a quack. I defend that spin due to the subject area of this forum which is not cancer.

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The article I posted was talking about stopping the buildup in a way Parlington described only that guy theorized that the excess fat in the bloodstream would be burned up by extra activity like moving around a lot automatically. No real testing has been done about the effects of fat in the bloodstream as this still is just a theory nothing more. So who knows how bad it can be (or not). But unless excreted it has to go somewhere.

That was the difference between your link and my article.. but my article was vague too calling it shrinking of fat cells while he was talking about blocking extra fat coming in.

[robblok]

I still think appetite suppressants are the way to go, not this way. Ethically at least, I mean with hunger in the world why make it possible for someone to gorge himself on food while others starve and take tablets so he can do that and stay in shape.

[partington]

The input from poster Partington is massively appreciated!!!!!

One can always hope for such informed input but its folly to ever expect it.

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Thanks for that, but of course I now have to entirely apologise for even suggesting that Dr Li is a quack, having watched the video.

He definitely is not: I was amazed to hear he worked with Judah Folkmann, who created the field of angiogenesis in cancer (and who I mentioned before I saw the video , honest!), and he's published many research papers on the subject, so you can safely assume he knows a damn sight more about all this than I do or ever will.

So his theory that one reason why healthy (mostly vegetable rich ) diets help prevent cancer is that they may have antiangiogenic properties, is probably pretty good.

Though I will say I was uncomfortable with his presentation of lists of foods with anti-angiogenic properties based on putting extracts of those foods on cells in a dish. I accept it was not a scientific talk, but this is very different from providing evidence that the same happens in humans when they eat those foods.

If I put a teaspoon of salt in a dish of cancer cells it will kill them-this does not mean salt cures cancer!

He did emphasise that he was mostly talking about preventative effects not curative effects, even for cancer, and it still doesn't really change the message that applies to almost every health condition - 70-80% of your diet should be vegetables, and eat as many different colours as possible.

The obesity bit was brief, and he was using a genetically mutant mouse that eats uncontrollably, a model that may not be very similar to obese humans. They were injected with a powerful antioangiogenic drug , rather than eating healthy foods, and the reason their weight went down was not given- did they stop eating? or did their fat shrink away for some other reason?

But it's very interesting, and he is doing good science, not selling his own range of products.

[Jingthing]

I accept responsibility for anyone who jumped to conclusions about Lee's quackery due to the way I framed the OP with an emphasis on obesity which Lee doesn't have. On the other hand I did suggest people watch the video. Also all humans obese and otherwise should have an interest in cancer prevention. Obese even more so as it increases the risk.

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Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[RaoulDuke]

As long as your caloric intake exceeds your use, you will continue to gain weight. The only real and lasting solution is to eat less and move more. Every one of these 'get skinny quick and easy' gimmicks are backed by a 'doctor' who brings all kinds of exciting jargon and 'medical expertise' that is very effective for a sales pitch. But the bottom line is that if you put more in than you take out, the excess will result in a net gain. Obesity has exploded in the last 20 years because we are eating more food, more calorie-dense/low nutrition food, and living a more sedentary lifestyle, where even shopping can be done without getting up off of our butt. Everyone wants a magic cure that enables them to keep eating like cow and be healthy, but that defies logic and physics.

Edited May 8, 2014 by RaoulDuke

[slipperylobster]

cutting off the blood supply is never a good idea.

the key is diet.

[sensei]

The good doctor is preaching about obesity while he is clearly overweight...

[Jingthing]

The good doctor is preaching about obesity while he is clearly overweight...

He is not obese and his field is cancer actually.

[sensei]

The good doctor is preaching about obesity while he is clearly overweight...

He is not obese and his field is cancer actually.

Can you point out where I said he was obese?

I said overweight.

[Jingthing]

Can we make Jingthing brain more sensible by cutting off it's blood supply?

That is out of line. Comment on the topic and avoid personal attacks. I doubt you have anything to say on the topic do you?

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[Jingthing]

The good doctor is preaching about obesity while he is clearly overweight...

He is not obese and his field is cancer actually.

Can you point out where I said he was obese?

I said overweight.

His weight is irrelevant. He's a cancer researcher not a fad diet marketer.

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Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

cutting off the blood supply is never a good idea.

the key is diet.

Actually if you read the thread targeting cancer cells in the way described is very good indeed.

The more controversial aspect is whether this approach would ever be useful with fat cells.

I agree that food choices and portion are the most important thing. However this topic does not need to be about all things obesity. It is intended to be focused on the narrow area talked about by Dr. Lee.

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Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[sensei]

The good doctor is preaching about obesity while he is clearly overweight...

He is not obese and his field is cancer actually.

Can you point out where I said he was obese?

I said overweight.

His weight is irrelevant. He's a cancer researcher not a fad diet marketer.

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Irrelevant? Now your argument has become irrelevant.

So let's talk about cancer and turn a blind eye on the health risks brought about by being overweight.

[Jingthing]

We all here are well aware of the health risks of obesity. The docs weight is his personal business. He's not Atkins and not selling diet products.

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[Jingthing]

The input from poster Partington is massively appreciated!!!!!

One can always hope for such informed input but its folly to ever expect it.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thanks for that, but of course I now have to entirely apologise for even suggesting that Dr Li is a quack, having watched the video.

He definitely is not: I was amazed to hear he worked with Judah Folkmann, who created the field of angiogenesis in cancer (and who I mentioned before I saw the video , honest!), and he's published many research papers on the subject, so you can safely assume he knows a damn sight more about all this than I do or ever will.

So his theory that one reason why healthy (mostly vegetable rich ) diets help prevent cancer is that they may have antiangiogenic properties, is probably pretty good.

Though I will say I was uncomfortable with his presentation of lists of foods with anti-angiogenic properties based on putting extracts of those foods on cells in a dish. I accept it was not a scientific talk, but this is very different from providing evidence that the same happens in humans when they eat those foods.

If I put a teaspoon of salt in a dish of cancer cells it will kill them-this does not mean salt cures cancer!

He did emphasise that he was mostly talking about preventative effects not curative effects, even for cancer, and it still doesn't really change the message that applies to almost every health condition - 70-80% of your diet should be vegetables, and eat as many different colours as possible.

The obesity bit was brief, and he was using a genetically mutant mouse that eats uncontrollably, a model that may not be very similar to obese humans. They were injected with a powerful antioangiogenic drug , rather than eating healthy foods, and the reason their weight went down was not given- did they stop eating? or did their fat shrink away for some other reason?

But it's very interesting, and he is doing good science, not selling his own range of products.

It sounds like you think and I would agree that it is worthwhile to do further research antioangiogenic meds for obesity. Lee seems to suggest it couldn't hurt to use his food list for obesity prevention and it sounds like you are skeptical on that.

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Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing