High Pressure Water Cleaner

[transam]

From my POV it's pretty simple - if the manufacturer supplied the device with an earthed plug, it's best to assume it needs an earth, no?

Just curious stick your head under the stairs or wherever your water pump is. It only has a 2 pin plug so no earth required? But curled up near the motor is a short length of green/yellow wire. Is yours connected?

.... what an illogical conversation this has changed into...

Well it is all the grounding missionaries. Just another thing that is wrong with Thailand. I'm surprised anyone live here.

Just buy a Pair of Wellies and enjoy yourself, shake hands with a Neighbour,and test the Earthing.

Mine is...............and a 2 meter rod in the ground about a foot away...............

[WarpSpeed]

Bottom line they don't NEED an earth they are required to have it in SOME countries for safety reasons of redundancy but they don't NEED them to be safe..It is just easier for the manufacturer to build them for the rules of most countries to meet requirements rather then having different equipment for EVERY country and therefore the plugs being the way they are. This should be some of that "common sense" we've been talking about just like car manufacturers using plenty of parts that cross between models and the like something everyone here should understand but sadly doesn't. With one exception, most of those plugs also work for most European countries but won't work for ours.

I'm sorry, but that's dangerous advice. For all you or I know, the pressure washer in question could use a metal impeller, connected to a metal shaft, that could easily be shorted to active... from there all it needs to do is find a path to you...

I've had a jolt from the active line of 220V, and even with a 30mA RCD that tripped, my shoulder is still permanently damaged.

Been there, got the T-shirt, as they say (but taking a t-shirt off hurts a lot now).

I'm sorry but a large part of my career is electrical with swimming pools for the last 26 years so I'm far more qualified to make this advice then you are, that includes EVERYTHING electrical and even with salt pools, motors, heat pumps, gas heaters, automated systems and systems that can now be operated by smart phone from around the world. You're making up hypothetical dangers you know nothing about first hand. Electricity can not be transferred in enough amperage thorough an inconsistent stream of water to electrocute someone, you may get a tingling sensation or small zap as one poster mentioned but not electrocuted. End of..

I respect your opinion most times IMHO but you're off base on this one. For example there are very few, if ANY current manufacturers of any such pumps that use metal impellers anymore due to cost, durability and safety and I DO know it can't be shorted that way, there are internal safeties you know nothing about that prevents it.

[WarpSpeed]

if you don't have metal strips on the side of the plug and/or a metal hole on the pin side, then yes, it's not an earthed appliance - go ahead and just plug it into a regular Thai socket.

Why does a plastic appliance or power tool need an earth. If the operator does not come into contact with any metal parts during the operation of the tool or appliance why does it need one?

Water? Well I assume everyone reading this will have grounded their water meter or at the very least inserted a bronze fitting somewhere in their blue PVC piping and grounded that?

"Short" answer, It doesn't...

[WarpSpeed]

Errr, I seem to opened up a hornets here and am almost regretting my post re the 3 pin plug. I was simply trying to pass on my humble opinions based on experience to the OP as requested.

It was simply my opinion and it's clear there are many here who know much more than I do about electricity. I'm curious tho as I noted (when I bought mine in Homepro) that some of the Zinzano washers only had 2 pin plugs and others had a 3 pin attached? I also saw this some time ago with samsung washing machines. In both cases the things all looked similar but just different sizes / capacity.

One final thought from me then I'm off 'cos I think this is straying too far from the OP's question. What is the problem with fitting a 3 pin plug to an appliance anyway? they only cost a few baht, can it really invalidate a warranty?

Ah well, good luck to Robert (the OP) whatever you decide.

Yeah there's also a host of power strips and extension cords there with 3 pin receptacles, open one up and see what the ground is attached to? Most I've seen don;t even have a ground it;s just a hole for your perception and to help hold the plug in..

[WarpSpeed]

if you don't have metal strips on the side of the plug and/or a metal hole on the pin side, then yes, it's not an earthed appliance - go ahead and just plug it into a regular Thai socket.

Why does a plastic appliance or power tool need an earth. If the operator does not come into contact with any metal parts during the operation of the tool or appliance why does it need one?

Water? Well I assume everyone reading this will have grounded their water meter or at the very least inserted a bronze fitting somewhere in their blue PVC piping and grounded that?

None of my power tools have earthed plugs, but plenty of other electrical appliances I have do...

From my POV it's pretty simple - if the manufacturer supplied the device with an earthed plug, it's best to assume it needs an earth, no?

.... what an illogical conversation this has changed into...

You're missing the point, more then once now I've mentioned redundancy, not necessity.. I agree with your illogical comment because it's not about logic it's about knowledge and understanding of electricity and how to be smart about it and not paranoid.

Edited May 12, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

I believe the small pressure cleaners for home us are 110 -120V in the US and have internal residual current devices. I dunno for sure but maybe that avoids the legal requirement for an earth in the US.

Most other places require an earth for appliances with exposure to water because whenever there is electricity and water in close proximity there is a risk, particularly if extension cords and plugs are in the wet area. Neither RCDs or earths are perfect. We have had safety reports at work about shocks from pressure washers in different countries with either system. Just curious but do any of the pressure washers sold in LOS with 2 pin plugs have a separate earth wire, like water coolers etc?

The bigger industrial pressure washers use 3 phase power (with an earth) and are 10x the pressure and flow of the home units. These are probably the ones TA's mate warned about. They will flatten heat exchanger fins, strip of paint and destroy electrical harness plugs etc unless they are used very carefully.

Yes, much of what you said is true and it's funny that ALL of the members who've not digested my posts are now showing their approval of your post which says essentially the same thing, just beyond their electrical understanding it seems including what you said about the industrial pressure washer which obviously was not the topic, so if T/A was referring to those well he was off topic once again..

[WarpSpeed]

I believe the small pressure cleaners for home us are 110 -120V in the US and have internal residual current devices. I dunno for sure but maybe that avoids the legal requirement for an earth in the US.

Most other places require an earth for appliances with exposure to water because whenever there is electricity and water in close proximity there is a risk, particularly if extension cords and plugs are in the wet area. Neither RCDs or earths are perfect. We have had safety reports at work about shocks from pressure washers in different countries with either system. Just curious but do any of the pressure washers sold in LOS with 2 pin plugs have a separate earth wire, like water coolers etc?

The bigger industrial pressure washers use 3 phase power (with an earth) and are 10x the pressure and flow of the home units. These are probably the ones TA's mate warned about. They will flatten heat exchanger fins, strip of paint and destroy electrical harness plugs etc unless they are used very carefully.

Bought a Samsung washing machine about 7 years ago, had a 2 pin plug, they delivered it, banged a nail in the floor and wrapped a bit of wire around it and fixed the other end to a rear casing screw. Now why did they do that when the manufacturer "thought" there was no need for an earth ? Most places have no earthed 3 pin outlets, hence the 2 pin plugs on most stuff.

My thoughts are that someone was electrocuted using one or another type of washing machine.

Warpy has given you dangerous information, if ANY country fits an earth wire to anything it means there could be risk to life, period .

If LOS doesn't, don't automatically think it's OK, cos it's not. Water & Electricity can or will cause your demise IF a problem occurs between the two.

THEY did that you thick browed....... Because there was a ground wire to be installed!! It isn't in the outlet, it's external and 90% of Thai outlets don't even have a ground in them and moreover the neutrals are all attached to the grounding bar unless the house was built in the last few years and well monitored by the owner to be who has that sort of knowledge. Mine came with one too!! But stupidly you think that nail is a ground?? That's how off base you really are, it won't ground an f'ing thing if it's needed, you'll still get shocked and that's what you'll get a shock, which is inconvenient and disturbing but it's not an electrocution!! You're info is dangerous because it's based on ignorance of electricity.

Edited May 12, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

There a many good things about LOS but electrical standards are not one of them. Power boards are sold here with 3 pin sockets and 2 pin plugs, like the Chinese version in the picture. Sadly these are too convenient for appliances with pesky 3 pin plugs (pressure washer, water heater/cooler, washing machine etc) and the old standard 2 pin wall socket.

They know this, open one up, 90% percent don't even have an attached ground.

Edited May 12, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

From my POV it's pretty simple - if the manufacturer supplied the device with an earthed plug, it's best to assume it needs an earth, no?

Just curious stick your head under the stairs or wherever your water pump is. It only has a 2 pin plug so no earth required? But curled up near the motor is a short length of green/yellow wire. Is yours connected?

.... what an illogical conversation this has changed into...

Well it is all the grounding missionaries. Just another thing that is wrong with Thailand. I'm surprised anyone live here.

Just buy a Pair of Wellies and enjoy yourself, shake hands with a Neighbour,and test the Earthing.

Funny stuff and perfectly illustrates why you won't get shocked with a plastic washer and plastic spray nozzles regardless of grounds or not. Try peeing on the electric fence, that won't shock you either as electricity does not cross a broken stream of water which is the same as what a pressure washer produces, it's a myth.. Stand in a bucket of water and grab the fence that's another situation altogether if one foot is in and one is out on the ground. Try standing in a high voltage electrical stream produced by a Tesla coil and you won't get shocked if not earthed in spite of the electric flowing right through you, how does that work? Same, same.. If you'd like to know more? Consult this guys work, my great, great grandfather worked with him to produce the first NE electric transformer station that became Con Edison. We have a picture (I should l say my sister does) of him, my great, great grandfather and one other guy I can't remember leaning against a shovel on ground breaking day.

that goes with my ow 26 years of personally working with water and electricity, so I'm quite sure I have plenty of credibility on the topic. Sorry Op i gave you my recommendations, I won't comment anymore, my point has been made, those here can take it or leave it.

Edited May 12, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Hmmmmmmmmm Warpy, many moons ago I worked on underground MAINS electricity cable jointing, we did it LIVE, soooooooooo, I have complete respect for the stuff which you clearly have not.

[Ace of Pop]

Dont Argue with T.A.!!..His Tire Pressure Gauge is Re Chipped to Measure Jet Washer Pressure.

[transam]

Dont Argue with T.A.!!..His Tire Pressure Gauge is Re Chipped to Measure Jet Washer Pressure.

Absolutely..........Well someone has to take care of you lot............

[BSJ]

I bough a Zinsano Amazon (I think Amazon?)...it's a cheap one to clean the 2 wheelers but I still have to go over each one after the first rinse with a wash mitt and detergent and use it to do the final rinse.

Will be taking it up the village to clean the tractor next visit. Will see how it goes on something a bit tougher!

If you have a slick layer of surface protection (sealant, wax or glass), use a foam lance first to get a good layer of surfactant down, and you wash regularly (no more than 7 days apart) you can avoid using a mitt altogether, for all but really heavy soling.

Mitts/sponges are bad - no matter what you do, when you hand wash you are going to damage the surface, somewhere, somehow. I've even progressed past the "2 bucket wash" and onto the "11 mitt wash" (i.e. one fresh mitt per panel) and there's still always a new swirl..

I think your working on a higher level of perfection than I!

[BSJ]

Driving a nail into the floor to make an earth! Why not take the rubber feet off the washing machine and save a penny!

[WarpSpeed]

Hmmmmmmmmm Warpy, many moons ago I worked on underground MAINS electricity cable jointing, we did it LIVE, soooooooooo, I have complete respect for the stuff which you clearly have not.

Respect yes, paranoia and ignorance no.. I once worked for an Australian guy there in LOS and he argued with me that you could safely seal a severed pool light cord under water to replace the light, meaning the repair would be forever submerged, even though the light comes from the factory as a one piece hermetically sealed unit with the length of cord ready to be cut to length, even in salt pools. He claimed they did it all the time in Australia and there and it was an accepted practice for underground applications, . Yet their idea for "sealed" was merely heat shrink tubing and not even marine shrink either, which has an adhesive on the inside that seals the line and is double thick, but is still not made for this permanent under water application, so forgive me if I don't bow to your knowledge of being a line man as many pool lights in Thailand are 220V and submerged with their safeties overridden due to cheap, ignorance and expediency, that WILL kill you!

He just couldn't grasp the difference between under ground and under water, needless to say I didn't do the repair and also didn't work for the moron Aussie much longer after that. BTW there was 5 lights in the commercial pool he wanted to fix that way ..

I know it's off topic but a necessary safety tip:

Another piece of good safety advice, if you stay in a hotel there with a pool and avail yourselves of it's use, (I wouldn't and that includes ANY water themed attractions as well, since either the electrical may kill you or the poor water chemistry might get you) If you see any smallish round metal plates on the floor do not step on them with bare feet. They are likely older style junction boxes that have a cord connection joined for some sort of lighting. The problem is they are usually not well sealed and they are supposed to contain paraffin wax in them to seal the joint from moisture as well as a seal on the cover. Because they're older most there don't realize how they are supposed to be properly sealed or are too lazy to do so and it's certain the light has been repaired at some juncture over the course of it's life so they don't reseal them well if at all, the ones I've seen which is quite a few were not sealed properly and the 220V wires sitting in a puddle of water .

Edited May 12, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

Dont Argue with T.A.!!..His Tire Pressure Gauge is Re Chipped to Measure Jet Washer Pressure.

Absolutely..........Well someone has to take care of you lot............

So here goes the childish jibes since no real facts to bring to the debate eh? Yes you're all doing a fine job, as questioned by several here..

Edited May 12, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Anyone heard from Warpy today, hope he 'aint gone up in smoke experimenting with water and electric.............. ......................

[transam]

Update................Just looked at my PW and it is NOT a sealed unit, it has about a dozen vents about 5 cm wide X 100 cm long.

[IMHO]

Update................Just looked at my PW and it is NOT a sealed unit, it has about a dozen vents about 5 cm wide X 100 cm long.

Give up TA - the whole debate is about a rational as debating that the sun orbits the Earth, or that TATA will one day be recognised as the worlds leading premium automotive brand

[WarpSpeed]

Anyone heard from Warpy today, hope he 'aint gone up in smoke experimenting with water and electric.............. ......................

Childish, but expected..

[WarpSpeed]

Update................Just looked at my PW and it is NOT a sealed unit, it has about a dozen vents about 5 cm wide X 100 cm long.

More childish nonsense. Of course it isn't showing your ignorant side again, it has to cool itself or it will burn up and WILL become a hazard but hopefully you noticed they point downward and moreover the motor and electrics are above that point, but you'd have to disassemble it to see that so quite certain you haven't done that.

[transam]

Update................Just looked at my PW and it is NOT a sealed unit, it has about a dozen vents about 5 cm wide X 100 cm long.

More childish nonsense. Of course it isn't showing your ignorant side again, it has to cool itself or it will burn up and WILL become a hazard but hopefully you noticed they point downward and moreover the motor and electrics are above that point, but you'd have to disassemble it to see that so quite certain you haven't done that.

Your wroooooooooooooong yet agaaaaaaaaaaaain. But, I think guys who want to live a long and electrocution free life have got the posts point.............

[WarpSpeed]

Update................Just looked at my PW and it is NOT a sealed unit, it has about a dozen vents about 5 cm wide X 100 cm long.

Give up TA - the whole debate is about a rational as debating that the sun orbits the Earth, or that TATA will one day be recognized as the worlds leading premium automotive brand

Well first off, having no life anytime when he gets to take shots he does, and being childish like my 9 and 10 year old he doesn't know when to quit.

TATA don't they own Range Rover and some other premium brands? Anyway back in the day they used to think that exactly about the sun and earth, until THEY became educated and those who thought they were educated took similar shots at those who REALLY were.

[transam]

Even German rides BOUGHT British car names, I wonder why............... ..............In fact why has anyone bought British car names as you think they are crap ?.

As far as I know, nobody has bought the Plymouth or Buick names, probably a few others too that could be bought eh.

Sorry off topic as they don't make power washers, BUT if they did they would be earthed...........

[WarpSpeed]

Update................Just looked at my PW and it is NOT a sealed unit, it has about a dozen vents about 5 cm wide X 100 cm long.

More childish nonsense. Of course it isn't showing your ignorant side again, it has to cool itself or it will burn up and WILL become a hazard but hopefully you noticed they point downward and moreover the motor and electrics are above that point, but you'd have to disassemble it to see that so quite certain you haven't done that.

Your wroooooooooooooong yet agaaaaaaaaaaaain. But, I think guys who want to live a long and electrocution free life have got the posts point.............

Your opinion is all that is and sorry but you're incorrect once again.....

[IMHO]

Page 4 here: http://www.karcher.co.uk/document/BTA-5342869-000-00.pdf

[Ace of Pop]

Happy Way..... Go to Mom n Pops Carwash , sit with you Mates, Drink Beer, talk rubbish, have a good chucle, pay 140 Simsons , wander Home.

[rayinkrabi]

"Happy Way..... Go to Mom n Pops Carwash" ...

and watch as they climb all over your pride and joy completely oblivious to the fact their jewelry and zips are scraping all over the bodywork then drop the sponge on the gritty floor and pick it up and continue the 'valeting' without even a shake or rinse of the sponge, then, when they've sponged the tyres and under the wheel arches, proceed onto the doors etc.

Yep, good advice if you have an old banger..but..I still reckon a pressure wash at home is the only way to go, earthed or not .

[rayinkrabi]

I know I said I wanted 'out' of this discussion but quite frankly it concerned me so I did a bit more research.

I now know that there are a number of different types of grounding methods and it seems everyone is correct here, indeed a class 2 or 'double insulated' appliance doesn't require an earth..apparently! My own Zinsano and previous Karchers have the double insulated symbol on it however did come with a three core cable, which is why I fitted a 3 pin plug, 'just in case' anyone know if this is in any way detrimental to safety or can damage the appliance?

I also came across some news items related to this subject and can only assume the offending washers were not double insulated? or maybe they were and something else went badly wrong?

"A 53-year old man was electrocuted recently while using an electric pressure washer to wash a truck. This incident has prompted the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission to reissue a consumer alert about these products.

The Commission warns that consumers could receive a fatal electrical shock from pressure washers if the power cord connections become wet or an internal short exists. At least 13 such fatalities have been reported to the Commission to date, including incidents in Iowa, Louisiana, Minnesota, Alabama, and Illinois.

One incident involved a 3-year-old boy who was killed when he contacted a pressure washer being used by his father.

Since pressure washers are used to spray water, the power cord, washer, and consumer are often in contact with water. This can be a fatal combination, especially if the machine is not properly grounded." (source: http://www.aptcontractors.com/pressure-washer-warning)

Another one from just a year ago:

"Orange Walk police are investigating the sudden death of an eighteen year old Mennonite laborer of Blue Creek Village in Orange Walk Town. Clayton Rempel was electrocuted on Monday afternoon around two-thirty as he was operating an electrical power wash machine." source: http://edition.channel5belize.com/archives/84585

There are many other articles on this subject of course such as this from 8 yrs back http://www.nclabor.com/news/Deadly%20Info/06DeadlySeptOct.pdf.

Back onto the subject of the presssure washer, I replaced the tiddly in-line filter that came with mine with one much larger and I swear it works better for it.

[Woodsie888]

"Happy Way..... Go to Mom n Pops Carwash" ...

and watch as they climb all over your pride and joy completely oblivious to the fact their jewelry and zips are scraping all over the bodywork then drop the sponge on the gritty floor and pick it up and continue the 'valeting' without even a shake or rinse of the sponge, then, when they've sponged the tyres and under the wheel arches, proceed onto the doors etc.

Yep, good advice if you have an old banger..but..I still reckon a pressure wash at home is the only way to go, earthed or not .

I really like the way they drag the roof mounted high pressure hose all around your car which leaves designer scratches all over......