Ukraine rebels seek to join Russia

[webfact]

East Ukraine separatists seek union with Russia

(BBC) A Ukrainian separatist leader is calling on Russia to "absorb" the eastern region of Donetsk after Sunday's referendum on self-rule.

Self-declared Donetsk People's Republic leader Denis Pushilin urged Moscow to listen to the "will of the people".

In neighbouring Luhansk, where a vote was also held, rebels declared independence.

Ukraine, the EU and US have declared the referendums illegal but Russia says the results should be "implemented".

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27369980


-- BBC 2014-05-13

[rebelplatoon]

Get to know our 'friend' Putin a bit, learn what he s about. This ex kgb just wants a Greater Russia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Rkom1RpKA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[hard124get]

Good luck to them . Self determination, small government. Mind your own business West.

[RuamRudy]

Good luck to them . Self determination, small government. Mind your own business West.

100.63% turnout for the 'referendum'?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-a-country-is-born--after-a-vote-by-10063-per-cent-of-its-population-9359411.html

A free and fair referendum without the interference of either Russia or the west is what is needed, with sufficient period of time for the implications of secession to be explored, but what happened yesterday was laughable and can, in no way, be considered legitimate by anything other than a banana republic.

[joshstiles]

Good luck to them . Self determination, small government. Mind your own business West.

Why don't you get an opinion of real Ukraine people...they know what is happening in their country....russian spies sent in to stir up trouble....Ukraine people are not stupid...they have been dealing with Russians for many years.

[SOTIRIOS]

...always the same scenario....for the U.S. to 'come in and save the day'.....they should get better script writers......

[fasteddie]

Good luck to them . Self determination, small government. Mind your own business West.

Why don't you get an opinion of real Ukraine people...they know what is happening in their country....russian spies sent in to stir up trouble....Ukraine people are not stupid...they have been dealing with Russians for many years.

Oh really?

US and EU Are Paying Ukrainian Rioters and Protesters ...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/americas-neo-nazi-government-in-kiev-towards-a-scenario-of-military-escalation/5380384

Odessa Massacre Updates

The Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity : What Does The US Government Want in Ukraine?

[Jingthing]

The vast majority of the Ukrainian people (including in Eastern Ukraine) do NOT want to join with Putin's Russia! This "election" was an obvious sham. It was pure political theater. These Russkie rebels if they want to be in Russia should BLOODY go to live in Russia, if Putin will take them. Enough with this disgusting land grab by dictator Putin. He's got Crimea, yes ... but enough is enough.

[user99]

Sorry,i don't agree with you jingthing..the majority of the east do.

Im sick of the west's propaganda machine making out Russia is behind the unrest in Ukraine when

the US and Europe paid protesters to riot in Kiev and other parts of the country.

Someone else mentioned that Russia had people on the ground there but there are also reports that

CIA and even the former Blackwater are there in force to help uphold another puppet government to

serve the wests needs.

One of the reasons the Berlin wall came down and the USSR collapsed was due to the

the US and Europe giving their promise not to expand eastward with NATO, but again the west cant

keep their word.

Another thing a lot of people don't know is after the IMF gave their loan with conditions that...

Cuts pensions 50%

Power costs up 50%

Wage cuts in government sectors and so on......

and all this on a population that has a very small monthly wage.

We all know Putin is no angel but I think he may have the moral high ground here and I agree the Ukrainian government was corrupt from top to bottom, but they were elected by the people.

How do you think any government in the west would act if their country had problems and foreign officials entered to make matters worse,

I cringed when I saw neuland on the street handing bread buns to the riot cops and protesters and what she was overheard saying on

the phone.....

I think the Ukraine should be Ukraine,not part of Europe,not part of Russia but the US has an agenda and we all know if they don't get there way

they throw their toys out of the pram and go to war.

This could be a very dangerous situation and if its not handled carefully we could all pay the price

[khunken]

Sorry,i don't agree with you jingthing..the majority of the east do.

Im sick of the west's propaganda machine making out Russia is behind the unrest in Ukraine when

the US and Europe paid protesters to riot in Kiev and other parts of the country.

Someone else mentioned that Russia had people on the ground there but there are also reports that

CIA and even the former Blackwater are there in force to help uphold another puppet government to

serve the wests needs.

One of the reasons the Berlin wall came down and the USSR collapsed was due to the

the US and Europe giving their promise not to expand eastward with NATO, but again the west cant

keep their word.

Another thing a lot of people don't know is after the IMF gave their loan with conditions that...

Cuts pensions 50%

Power costs up 50%

Wage cuts in government sectors and so on......

and all this on a population that has a very small monthly wage.

We all know Putin is no angel but I think he may have the moral high ground here and I agree the Ukrainian government was corrupt from top to bottom, but they were elected by the people.

How do you think any government in the west would act if their country had problems and foreign officials entered to make matters worse,

I cringed when I saw neuland on the street handing bread buns to the riot cops and protesters and what she was overheard saying on

the phone.....

I think the Ukraine should be Ukraine,not part of Europe,not part of Russia but the US has an agenda and we all know if they don't get there way

they throw their toys out of the pram and go to war.

This could be a very dangerous situation and if its not handled carefully we could all pay the price

A very good summary of the current crisis in Ukraine.

Unfortunately there are very few western media outlets prepared to stand up to the propaganda emanating from the US and half-heartedly supported by some in the EU.

[user99]

A very good summary of the current crisis in Ukraine.

Unfortunately there are very few western media outlets prepared to stand up to the propaganda emanating from the US and half-heartedly supported by some in the EU.

Maybe because most are government funded/controlled

[RuamRudy]

A very good summary of the current crisis in Ukraine.

Unfortunately there are very few western media outlets prepared to stand up to the propaganda emanating from the US and half-heartedly supported by some in the EU.

Maybe because most are government funded/controlled

I have no doubt that you are right in all your assertions, however the people of Ukraine are the losers, being fought over by Russia and the west.

You seem to think that only the West is at fault - meanwhile Putin has effectively clamped down on all media outlets that do not kowtow to him; he has fermented an armed rebellion in a sovereign country and encouraged an illegal referendum that saw voter turnout in excess of 100%!

It is all very well claiming that the west has intentions to absorb Ukraine into a western ideology, but do not turn your eyes from the efforts of Putin to destabilise the country.

[ABCer]

Ukraine... a country torn by controversies.

Two rivers two flows of water two mass media streams of lies in opposite directions.

From West to East. Russia is an aggressor. Putin is bad. Ukraine wants to go to Europe. Russia cannot be trusted - they took Crimea + 1 million other bad things.

From East to West. USA, NATO and Europe are aggressors. Ukrainians are Neo-Nazis. West cannot be trusted - they moved their forces East, they financed Ukrainian unrest + 1 million other bad things.

All of the above are truths and lies depending on viewpoint. Or half truths and half lies depending on which side you like better.

The undeniable truth is in the facts that

- there is a civil war going on in Ukraine;

- people are dying every day;

- things will be getting much worse before the end;

- all rivers in Ukraine flow from North to South;

- brothers may hate each other, but they are still brothers;

- no matter how far West you live - we all will be paying the price of this folly one day;

- the price to pay may be very high.

[khunken]

A very good summary of the current crisis in Ukraine.

Unfortunately there are very few western media outlets prepared to stand up to the propaganda emanating from the US and half-heartedly supported by some in the EU.

Maybe because most are government funded/controlled

I have no doubt that you are right in all your assertions, however the people of Ukraine are the losers, being fought over by Russia and the west.

You seem to think that only the West is at fault - meanwhile Putin has effectively clamped down on all media outlets that do not kowtow to him; he has fermented an armed rebellion in a sovereign country and encouraged an illegal referendum that saw voter turnout in excess of 100%!

It is all very well claiming that the west has intentions to absorb Ukraine into a western ideology, but do not turn your eyes from the efforts of Putin to destabilise the country.

And you seem to think that it's only Russia that's at fault.

I'm not a Putin fan - he is a thuggish ruler - but he didn't start the current crisis. It was the US and a few followers in EU that destabilised Ukraine by actively encouraging the protestors (including a fascist section) to overthrow the elected government. The pro-Russian government was in power due to various factional fights between opposition groups.

The various referenda may not be 100% legal or above board but they point to a serious gulf between the west-supported current 'government' and the Russian-speaking east. It doesn't help to blame one side and the future of Ukraine should be in the hands of Ukrainians - not the US (or CIA) or Russia. NATO bases are in the background too.

The constant rhetoric is Russia this, Russia that, sanctions, blah, blah. That is why it is good to have some open-minded thinking and User99 hit the nail on the head.

[RuamRudy]

A very good summary of the current crisis in Ukraine.

Unfortunately there are very few western media outlets prepared to stand up to the propaganda emanating from the US and half-heartedly supported by some in the EU.

Maybe because most are government funded/controlled

I have no doubt that you are right in all your assertions, however the people of Ukraine are the losers, being fought over by Russia and the west.

You seem to think that only the West is at fault - meanwhile Putin has effectively clamped down on all media outlets that do not kowtow to him; he has fermented an armed rebellion in a sovereign country and encouraged an illegal referendum that saw voter turnout in excess of 100%!

It is all very well claiming that the west has intentions to absorb Ukraine into a western ideology, but do not turn your eyes from the efforts of Putin to destabilise the country.

And you seem to think that it's only Russia that's at fault.

I'm not a Putin fan - he is a thuggish ruler - but he didn't start the current crisis. It was the US and a few followers in EU that destabilised Ukraine by actively encouraging the protestors (including a fascist section) to overthrow the elected government. The pro-Russian government was in power due to various factional fights between opposition groups.

The various referenda may not be 100% legal or above board but they point to a serious gulf between the west-supported current 'government' and the Russian-speaking east. It doesn't help to blame one side and the future of Ukraine should be in the hands of Ukrainians - not the US (or CIA) or Russia. NATO bases are in the background too.

The constant rhetoric is Russia this, Russia that, sanctions, blah, blah. That is why it is good to have some open-minded thinking and User99 hit the nail on the head.

Read again my very first line - I am under no illusion that the west is not meddling too.

I am also not ignorant of Russia or Russian thinking - I lived and worked in the country for over a decade.

[user99]

I have no doubt that you are right in all your assertions, however the people of Ukraine are the losers, being fought over by Russia and the west.

You seem to think that only the West is at fault - meanwhile Putin has effectively clamped down on all media outlets that do not kowtow to him; he has fermented an armed rebellion in a sovereign country and encouraged an illegal referendum that saw voter turnout in excess of 100%!

It is all very well claiming that the west has intentions to absorb Ukraine into a western ideology, but do not turn your eyes from the efforts of Putin to destabilise the country.

Your right, sadly the people of Ukraine will be at a loss.

Have you seen any reports of armed groups of neo-Nazi thugs shouting things like death to Russian scum ?...when the vast majority of the

east Ukrainian people are of Russian decent, Russian speaking ,have relatives living and working in Russia.

A couple of months ago the so called care taker PM made a statement saying the Russian language will be banned , only to retract his statements later.

Possession of firearms to civilians is highly restricted and if Putin has sent people/arms in for these people to protect themselves....then good on him.

The west only wants Ukraine for their missile defence systems and Russian doesn't like this because its too close to their boarders so they will have

little time to react.

Remember Turkey, the west claimed it was for defence of attack from Iran, but Iran had nothing capable of reaching Europe.

They are just poking at Russia, but Russia is not a big threat.....maybe the US is pissed at the snowden thing or they need a new boogy man

to justify military spending now that they are pulling out of afgan/Iraq.......need a new cold war.

As for the referendum, Scotland, Venice , catalonia .....why not East Ukraine......

Crimea was part of Russian before soviet times and has just gone home

[RuamRudy]

I have no doubt that you are right in all your assertions, however the people of Ukraine are the losers, being fought over by Russia and the west.

You seem to think that only the West is at fault - meanwhile Putin has effectively clamped down on all media outlets that do not kowtow to him; he has fermented an armed rebellion in a sovereign country and encouraged an illegal referendum that saw voter turnout in excess of 100%!

It is all very well claiming that the west has intentions to absorb Ukraine into a western ideology, but do not turn your eyes from the efforts of Putin to destabilise the country.

Your right, sadly the people of Ukraine will be at a loss.

Have you seen any reports of armed groups of neo-Nazi thugs shouting things like death to Russian scum ?...when the vast majority of the

east Ukrainian people are of Russian decent, Russian speaking ,have relatives living and working in Russia.

A couple of months ago the so called care taker PM made a statement saying the Russian language will be banned , only to retract his statements later.

Possession of firearms to civilians is highly restricted and if Putin has sent people/arms in for these people to protect themselves....then good on him.

The west only wants Ukraine for their missile defence systems and Russian doesn't like this because its too close to their boarders so they will have

little time to react.

Remember Turkey, the west claimed it was for defence of attack from Iran, but Iran had nothing capable of reaching Europe.

They are just poking at Russia, but Russia is not a big threat.....maybe the US is pissed at the snowden thing or they need a new boogy man

to justify military spending now that they are pulling out of afgan/Iraq.......need a new cold war.

As for the referendum, Scotland, Venice , catalonia .....why not East Ukraine......

Crimea was part of Russian before soviet times and has just gone home

As a Scot and a passionate supporter of the Yes campaign, I fully support a people's right to self determination, however the Scottish referendum is taking place after years of careful planning and amid strict rules about campaigning. If the people of Crimea or East Ukraine have a majority desire to join Russia, then great for them, but a referendum can only be taken seriously when carried out in accordance with international norms. Gunboat diplomacy and farcical voting does their cause no good at all.

Edited May 13, 2014 by RuamRudy

[Asiantravel]

Sorry,i don't agree with you jingthing..the majority of the east do.

Im sick of the west's propaganda machine making out Russia is behind the unrest in Ukraine when

the US and Europe paid protesters to riot in Kiev and other parts of the country.

Someone else mentioned that Russia had people on the ground there but there are also reports that

CIA and even the former Blackwater are there in force to help uphold another puppet government to

serve the wests needs.

One of the reasons the Berlin wall came down and the USSR collapsed was due to the

the US and Europe giving their promise not to expand eastward with NATO, but again the west cant

keep their word.

Another thing a lot of people don't know is after the IMF gave their loan with conditions that...

Cuts pensions 50%

Power costs up 50%

Wage cuts in government sectors and so on......

and all this on a population that has a very small monthly wage.

We all know Putin is no angel but I think he may have the moral high ground here and I agree the Ukrainian government was corrupt from top to bottom, but they were elected by the people.

How do you think any government in the west would act if their country had problems and foreign officials entered to make matters worse,

I cringed when I saw neuland on the street handing bread buns to the riot cops and protesters and what she was overheard saying on

the phone.....

I think the Ukraine should be Ukraine,not part of Europe,not part of Russia but the US has an agenda and we all know if they don't get there way

they throw their toys out of the pram and go to war.

This could be a very dangerous situation and if its not handled carefully we could all pay the price

Also, surely not enough people of asked this question?

The real question is why the US government is involved in Ukraine in the first place. We are broke. We cannot even afford to fix our own economy. Yet we want to run Ukraine? Does it really matter who Ukrainians elect to represent them? Is it really a national security matter worth risking a nuclear war with Russia whether Ukraine votes for more regional autonomy and a weaker central government? Isn’t that how the United States was originally conceived?

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/may/11/what-does-the-us-government-want-in-ukraine.aspx

[user99]

Also, surely not enough people of asked this question?

The real question is why the US government is involved in Ukraine in the first place. We are broke. We cannot even afford to fix our own economy. Yet we want to run Ukraine? Does it really matter who Ukrainians elect to represent them? Is it really a national security matter worth risking a nuclear war with Russia whether Ukraine votes for more regional autonomy and a weaker central government? Isn’t that how the United States was originally conceived?

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/may/11/what-does-the-us-government-want-in-ukraine.aspx

Im not a US citizen , but I wish that man had got the job! I like his thinking on foreign policy and bringing the states back to what it used to be!

Hope the son is a chip of the old block!

[user99]

As a Scot and a passionate supporter of the Yes campaign, I fully support a people's right to self determination, however the Scottish referendum is taking place after years of careful planning and amid strict rules about campaigning. If the people of Crimea or East Ukraine have a majority desire to join Russia, then great for them, but a referendum can only be taken seriously when carried out in accordance with international norms. Gunboat diplomacy and farcical voting does their cause no good at all.

The voting in Crimea was a snap election, unlike Scotland they were under pressure to vote (not from Russia but from Kiev) because of the threatening

behaviour of the anti-Russian mobs and the muppet pm that threatened their language and way of life, and if I remember correctly there were

international observers there that reported no fixing/stuffing of boxes/forcing to vote, the people knew what they wanted and voted for it.

As for the east we will have to wait and see,but I expect the same.

The only gunboats pointing guns at the people was kiev

[user99]

In a sign of Russia’s ability to use its economic clout to drive a wedge between its adversaries, France’s government said this week it will deliver Mistral helicopter carrier warships to Russia as planned, rejecting requests from its European and U.S. allies to cancel the sale.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-05-13/u-dot-s-dot-plays-down-russian-sectoral-sanctions-over-retaliation-risk

At least someone has a bit of sence, or they'd be E1.2b out of pocket.

Sanctions do nothing only hurt the people of that country

[Jingthing]

Sorry,i don't agree with you jingthing..the majority of the east do.

...

Think again.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-cnn-poll/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Ukrainians are a lot less pro-Russian than separatists there would like the world to believe, even in regions along the border with Russia which are supposedly voting overwhelmingly to declare independence from Ukraine, a new poll for CNN suggests.

...

The CNN poll found that even in eastern Ukraine, a minority of people back an alliance with Russia.

Just over a third (37%) of Ukrainians in three eastern regions favor an alliance with Russia, while 14% of the region backs an alliance with the European Union and about half (49%) say Ukraine would be better off if it did not ally with either, the poll found.

Please don't bother with the it's CNN so it's western propaganda. No, it's not. CNN is a free press organization that makes an attempt to report news objectively. The report on the poll is from a scientific polling organization. Of course no polls are perfect. But compare to the Putin propaganda press. He controls the press in Russia so you'd be very foolish to go there to look for information.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Jingthing

[user99]

Sorry,i don't agree with you jingthing..the majority of the east do.

...

Think again.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-cnn-poll/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Ukrainians are a lot less pro-Russian than separatists there would like the world to believe, even in regions along the border with Russia which are supposedly voting overwhelmingly to declare independence from Ukraine, a new poll for CNN suggests.

...

The CNN poll found that even in eastern Ukraine, a minority of people back an alliance with Russia.

Just over a third (37%) of Ukrainians in three eastern regions favor an alliance with Russia, while 14% of the region backs an alliance with the European Union and about half (49%) say Ukraine would be better off if it did not ally with either, the poll found.

Please don't bother with the it's CNN so it's western propaganda. No, it's not. CNN is a free press organization that makes an attempt to report news objectively. The report on the poll is from a scientific polling organization. Of course no polls are perfect. But compare to the Putin propaganda press. He controls the press in Russia so you'd be very foolish to go there to look for information.

Please don't be so naïve jingthing.... all (big) press organizations from west to east are biased government controlled/funded propaganda machines.

And what makes you think I look to Russia for info?

[Jingthing]

So predictable.

Look folks.

Crimea was different which is why it was so EASY.

The rest of Eastern Ukraine is much more diverse and that is a verifiable fact.

The vast majority of Ukrainians also do NOT want to become part of Russia. Also a fact.

[user99]

So predictable.

Look folks.

Crimea was different which is why it was so EASY.

The rest of Eastern Ukraine is much more diverse and that is a verifiable fact.

The vast majority of Ukrainians also do NOT want to become part of Russia. Also a fact.

So predictable because its true

Your right to say the vast majority don't want to be part of Russia,but this is in the western regions only,the east is totally

different and we'll just have to wait and see.

So for now I think its best to agree to disagree

[Jingthing]

So if this poll doesn't say anything close to your ideological beliefs, it's worthless.

Objective people I hope are more open minded.

Also if it was so clear cut in the east other than Crimea, Russia would have already grabbed it.

This other part ... assuming they want to grab it (who knows Putin's heart ... I don't) is certainly taking much more time and already much more violence.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Jingthing

[chuckd]

Wondering if this development will have any impact on US foreign policy in Ukraine.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Son of U.S. Vice President Biden Joins Ukraine Gas Company

The Moscow TimesMay. 13 2014 18:49 Last edited 18:49

The youngest son of U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, has been appointed head of legal affairs at Ukraine's largest private gas producer — a move he said would benefit Ukrainians and the country's economy.

In a statement published Monday on its website, Burisma Holdings announced Hunter Biden would join its board of directors and head the company's legal unit.

"As a new member of the board, I believe that my assistance in consulting the company on matters of transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international expansion and other priorities will contribute to the economy and benefit the people of Ukraine," Hunter Biden said in the statement.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/son-of-us-vice-president-biden-joins-ukraine-gas-company/500062.html

Consider the source.

[ABCer]

So predictable.

Look folks.

Crimea was different which is why it was so EASY.

The rest of Eastern Ukraine is much more diverse and that is a verifiable fact.

The vast majority of Ukrainians also do NOT want to become part of Russia. Also a fact.

Predictable? - agreed.

Crimea is different from Ukraine? - agreed.

East Ukraine is more diverse? - agreed.

Where did you find your last fact? - I would like to agree, but...

I understand your passion about the matter. But do not share your simplistic beliefs.

Average Ukrainians - prefer stability and proper economics. Jobs, bread on the table, reasonable pensions and less thieving Governments. They may go for Russia not against it.

Russian Ukrainians - are already for Russia. Pushed into their position by stupid thieving Ukrainian Governments.

Western Ukrainians - is a very confused mixed bag of people:

- there are Russians among them

- there are average people among them

- there are Jews among them

- there are Neo-Nazis, Nationalists and staunch Anti-Russians among them

- plus many other factions.

One of the above many groups will fight to the death against Moscow (they did it for the last 100 years).

All of the above groups are fiercely antagonistic (they were for the last 100 years).

The outcome? I do not know. It looks like you know better. Good luck to them and to you.

[user99]

So if this poll doesn't say anything close to your ideological beliefs, it's worthless.

Objective people I hope are more open minded.

Also if it was so clear cut in the east other than Crimea, Russia would have already grabbed it.

This other part ... assuming they want to grab it (who knows Putin's heart ... I don't) is certainly taking much more time and already much more violence.

jingthing, I was in Kiev when the trouble started and as it got worse we moved down to her home town just east of Dnipropetrovsk

Her (my wife) worked for a law firm not far from the centre of the troubles. Me, an electrical engineer working for a company outside the city. We decided to move out of the city for the sake of our children not knowing how far this might go. I don't look to Russia for info nor do I look to the west, I get my info from my wife,her family,friends and colleagues and I can tell you (unless those people are lying to me) that the majority of the east and even a lot not in the east favour Russia or want to be independent (they don't like/trust kiev). Right now we are looking at our options whether to go back to my home country or look toward Thailand where we have a small interest in a company in the Krabi area, thinking that we could build/expand on that. But we're not sure if Thailand would be best for the kids (schooling,culture,food) ect.

I find it sad that you seem to think what the people of Ukraine want based on a CNN poll.

Like I said in my last post, I think we should agree to disagree

[Jingthing]

Here's a hint for you.

The same CNN which you demonize as worthlessly biased, yes the SAME CNN, very fairly reported that the vast majority of the people of CRIMEA did indeed want to join Russia.

Which they did.

So was that worthless info as well?

If CNN is so worthless, why didn't they "LIE" about Crimea as well and falsely report propaganda that the majority did not want to join Russia?
Yes I DO believe the CNN poll and I have read other sources which concur as well, that the majority of EASTERN Ukraine people (not recently imported Russian troublemakers) do indeed NOT wish to join Russia. Absolutely.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Scott