Senate, Suthep's big hope to topple govt

[HappyinNE]

Senate will perform the coup before 27-May, I promise.

Else Suthep will go to jail (as he promise).

I for one doubt either will happen.

[smedly]

It maybe the rules that govern the senate that get in the way of the senate legally appointing a new PM. The senate being a house of revue may not have the power to appoint a PM or to constitute a new government.

actually they do as stated in the Constitution - why did you post the above nonsense

[Scamper]

The political divisions will not disappear - whatever happens. That's abundantly clear. What will eventually shift this debate, though, will be this -

Can a country fiscally function for long without a fully functioning government that has the power of the purse ?

Everything that happens will be a result of the conclusions that emanate from that sentence. Pheu Thai's greatest liability is its inability to arrange an election. The more remote an election becomes, the greater the possibility that the Senate will nominate a prime minister and cabinet that can be fully functional. The Senate's main point has been that they do not believe Niwattumrong and his cabinet of 25 are fully functional. And they aren't. They can't constitutionally do anything. The longer the country is without a fully functioning government that is capable of forming policies and the delegation of monies, the closer it becomes to seeing infrastructure services begin to be scaled back. The country - any country - needs money constantly. The authority of the Pheu Thai administration to control that has long past. The situation has become so desperate for Pheu Thai that they have even openly contemplated asking the EC to authorize the funding of the entire upcoming national budget. In other words, the EC would become in effect Pheu Thai's limitless piggy-bank, that they could pool from at will, without the constraints of having to go through parliament. That's how bad it's become. But what is seminal about even that thought is that even Pheu Thai realizes that they cannot fiscally govern without legislative authority, and as they can't get it, find themselves now ironically contemplating receiving it from the very agency that Chalerm recently threatened with prison.

The dynamic will thus be changed on this - the longer the country goes without a fully functioning government makes it more likely that the Senate will take the next step. The political divisions will remain, of course. But the Senate will have pragmatically - and accurately - assessed that no country can fiscally function indefinitely without a fully functioning government that has the power of the purse.

[smedly]

The best argument for a fully elected senate seems to the senate itself. These self serving appointed dinosaurs have the potential to destroy Thailand and have already played their part in turning Thailand's political system into the laughing stock of ASEAN and the developed world.

No.... The Thai political system has been trashed by the Thaksin regime for the past 12 years or so.

I have been following it since then.

Forget the amnesty bill that promised to wipe out 'rule of law' for years of political crimes did you?

Forget about all the nepotism that yanked out the experts and replaced them with the family did you?

Forget about the corrupted election processes fraught with vote buying, voter intimidation and campaign blocking for all but one political party did you?

Forget about the midnight voting on very important issues when not all vote holders were present and either sleeping or removed from the house did you?

Forget about the many abuses of power and breeches of the constitution did you?

Don't sit their behind your keyboard trying to pretend the senate is responsible for making the Thai political system a laughing stock. Remember all the current and retired senators who have a sword of Damocles hanging over them... They are all the pro Thaksin lot who have corrupted the senate and tried to corrupt the political system.

Get your red glasses off, you may start to see the wider picture.

Correct

PTP have made a complete mockery of the Thai political system and continue to do so

Nobody else has responsibility for that - power abuse - dereliction of duty - massive corruption

What country on this planet would allow a convicted corrupt criminal on the run buy his way to power from abroad - those that are accepting his money should be ashamed of themselves - bought for their services - seems a common problem in Thailand along with lying and cheating

[Eric Loh]

It maybe the rules that govern the senate that get in the way of the senate legally appointing a new PM. The senate being a house of revue may not have the power to appoint a PM or to constitute a new government.

actually they do as stated in the Constitution - why did you post the above nonsense

Perhaps you should quote the Section in the Constitution that you felt so strongly that BSJ post nonsense.Looking at the various sections involved in particular Sections 7, 172, 180 and 181, the senate has zero power and the appointed PM must be an elected representative and there is none because the election is null and void.

[Eric Loh]

The best argument for a fully elected senate seems to the senate itself. These self serving appointed dinosaurs have the potential to destroy Thailand and have already played their part in turning Thailand's political system into the laughing stock of ASEAN and the developed world.

No.... The Thai political system has been trashed by the Thaksin regime for the past 12 years or so.

I have been following it since then.

Forget the amnesty bill that promised to wipe out 'rule of law' for years of political crimes did you?

Forget about all the nepotism that yanked out the experts and replaced them with the family did you?

Forget about the corrupted election processes fraught with vote buying, voter intimidation and campaign blocking for all but one political party did you?

Forget about the midnight voting on very important issues when not all vote holders were present and either sleeping or removed from the house did you?

Forget about the many abuses of power and breeches of the constitution did you?

Don't sit their behind your keyboard trying to pretend the senate is responsible for making the Thai political system a laughing stock. Remember all the current and retired senators who have a sword of Damocles hanging over them... They are all the pro Thaksin lot who have corrupted the senate and tried to corrupt the political system.

Get your red glasses off, you may start to see the wider picture.

Correct

PTP have made a complete mockery of the Thai political system and continue to do so

Nobody else has responsibility for that - power abuse - dereliction of duty - massive corruption

What country on this planet would allow a convicted corrupt criminal on the run buy his way to power from abroad - those that are accepting his money should be ashamed of themselves - bought for their services - seems a common problem in Thailand along with lying and cheating

Thrash in the last 12 years. That 12 years also include 1.5 years of military rule who went on a witch hunt to banned and censored community stations, media and TRT executives for 5 years. Re-write the constitution to benefit the military and the royalists. Then another 2.5 years of Dem government who tried to steal TRT policies and change the thinking of their supporters. Yes there were power abuse, dereliction of duty and massive corruptions in those years too.

[Baerboxer]

Not Sutheps big hope the countries big hope.

The sooner the 26 appointed by Thaksin acting caretaker cabinet ministers are out of it the sooner the country can move forward towards a true democracy.

They are the main thing standing in the way of progress.

Them and their red army that is, the leaders of which are being paid to rally the gullible with hate, lies and money and who preach civil war and separatism should their glorious leader be thwarted in his attempts to gain amnesty for his crimes and come back to take over the country as his own.

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

There is a grain of truth in what you say. But, no one ever saved democracy by standing by whilst others dismantled it all the name of giving the people "real freedom and democracy". The list of tin-pot dictators from Lenin to Gaddafi is full of those who created "family despotic dynasties" and claimed they were for the people. Strange how these crooks turned dictators always manage to become mega rich with huge overseas under declared assets whilst their "people" become poor. Some like the Ceaucescu's, the Gaddafis, etc feel the wrath when the people finally get fed up with the lies.

[ddavidovsky]

No one has a solution to this problem, so here's one: Weighted voting.

To explain:

The most workable political system is an oscillating two-party system. This needs a degree of levelling in society so that voters can swing from one side to the other depending on the policies on offer. It works well enough in all the major democracies.

In Thailand the disparity between the two groups, partly for historical reasons, is too great to allow any swing. With populist policies currently attracting the great majority of voters, democracy falls foul of majoritarianism, as we have seen. The upper-class (conservative, right-wing, royalist) side are effectively disenfranchised.

The right-wing in Thailand therefore advocates reform before election. The people on the street think they are talking about tackling corruption, but that is a deception. What they secretly mean - they daren't say so - is the subversion of the one-man one-vote system to give them a better chance of winning an election.

Personally, I wish Thailand would stick with one-man one-vote and work towards levelling society organically over time. In practice, though, we can see that doesn't work - people with power will use their power illegitimately when they find they can't win. It's contemptible, but that's the reality of it. Call it human frailty.

Thailand can either put up with the ongoing tension, civil disturbance and economic instability that involves - for decades to come - or else try a pragmatic solution that helps level society and doesn't simply involve the right-wing taking control in fascist style.

Weighted voting is where one person's vote depends on his economic status. Everyone can be assigned a vote-level depending on their taxation bracket, which broadly will reflect socio-economic status. It will need some careful maths to produce the desired effect, but let's suggest 0.5 votes-per-person for the bottom bracket, 1.5 votes-per-person for the top bracket and 1 vote-per-person for Mr. Average.

As odious as it might seem, everyone in fact bows to the unarguable power of money in society, and the general principle may be accepted as reasonably fair by all, as long as it doesn't produce an unfair advantage to any group. The trick is to end up with a roughly equal balance of votes so that both parties can then compete and campaign on the merit of their policies, yielding a result that neither group can fairly object to.

Well, it's a suggested solution, in the absence of any others.

[smedly]

You know of all the posts on this forum if everybody answered one question honestly it would end all the constant arguments and debates

While in office did PTP break the law ?

I'm not even going to add all the other things like - abuse power - corruption - lie - thieve - deceive etc.

Just that one question above and if you answer it truthfully then there is nothing to talk about - no more argument

[smedly]

It is in the interest of the country and the people of this country to be able to vote freely in an election where every candidate can campaign in every electorate without fear and every voter can vote for their choice without harassment.

Thats great ,then don't bar anyone from running , don't pick out Thaksin family or supporters and say they can't run for office. Let anyone eneter the ranks to vote and let the people decide by thier votes who they want. Too many times when 1 side doesn't like the way the voting goes namely they lost so they protest, get over it.

you still need rules to keep criminals out of office - you do believe that right ?

[smedly]

"...the Senate is the only legitimate organisation left to fulfil his group's desire of unseating the government."

If indeed the unelected portion of the Senate has the authority to unilaterally unseat the House whose elected ministers (whether interim or otherwise), the existence of democracy in Thailand has been a sham since the creation of the 2007 Constitution. The so-called checks and balances in actual practice over the conduct of the House and Senate do not truly exist and the unelected portion of the Senate remains the only ruling organization to determine what laws are legitimate and not legitimate; what parts of the Constitution prvail and not prevail.

While there are shortcomings in the Constitution to address modern-day issues of a still emerging democratic nation, I do not believe the Senate has such dictatoral authority over representatives of the electorate. The 2007 Constitution is fundamentally appropriate to respect the authority of the electorate and should prevail in all actions taken by the Senate. Any interpretation of the Constitution otherwise is a violation of the Constitution.

It is curious that the Constitutional Court, that has been so participatory in leading Thailand to its current state of political conflict, is not being asked by the Interim Senate Speaker for a confirmation of his interpretation of Senate authority to unseat the Government. Of course part of that lack of initiative may be due in part to the fact that the Interim Speaker himself does not yet occupy any official position until his appointment. it may also be due to the CC itself is unwilling to rule that the Senate has the authroity to unseat the elected House as then the whole constitutional monarchy collapses.

one thing that stands out in your posting I have highlighted above

It's like a murderer blaming a judge for the murder he committed when looking out the bars of a jail cell

[soalbundy]

Not Sutheps big hope the countries big hope.

The sooner the 26 appointed by Thaksin acting caretaker cabinet ministers are out of it the sooner the country can move forward towards a true democracy.

They are the main thing standing in the way of progress.

Them and their red army that is, the leaders of which are being paid to rally the gullible with hate, lies and money and who preach civil war and separatism should their glorious leader be thwarted in his attempts to gain amnesty for his crimes and come back to take over the country as his own.

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

Cromwell did a good job in the English civil war. The French revolution made their own democracy through soaking the country in blood. The point is you cant have freedom given to you,that which gives can always take it away again,freedom has to be taken with force and if necessary defended with violence.

It's not my country, i see that both sides have their merits,both their weakness's, how this will turn out we don't know. Fact is Thailand has never had a real democracy,their institutions are not strong enough to withstand these onslaughts being thrown at them and through lack of experience don't know how to deal with the situation democratically. What is clear however is that things are changing whether for the worse or better only time will tell. What confuses more is the question,is this even about democracy or is it just a power game between the powerful for their own gain?

[dukebowling]

No need to worry…the unConstitutional Court will support any means to retain power through unelected means. The problem with this is they are consistently in obvious conflict with the Constitution and direct opposition to the kings authority.

The more bad rulings they make, the more scrutiny they will receive. With all this obvious corruption, a vote/referendum would be necessary to stop the revolution that would surely follow if these judicial officials retain their authority.

Non representative governments just aren't cool without open foreign capitalist policies (China).

[manstr23]

The best argument for a fully elected senate seems to the senate itself. These self serving appointed dinosaurs have the potential to destroy Thailand and have already played their part in turning Thailand's political system into the laughing stock of ASEAN and the developed world.

Why are we advocating an elected senate ? If the senate is elected the same way the MP's of the PTP are elected, then why have a senate, dispense with it all together and save the money they would consume. They would just be another 150 putting there snout into the trough. You do not need an upper house to rubberstamp the Government's bills. Real democracies also have unelected senates and it works well.

But then Thailand is not a democracy, yet.

[Publicus]

Not Sutheps big hope the countries big hope.

The sooner the 26 appointed by Thaksin acting caretaker cabinet ministers are out of it the sooner the country can move forward towards a true democracy.

They are the main thing standing in the way of progress.

Them and their red army that is, the leaders of which are being paid to rally the gullible with hate, lies and money and who preach civil war and separatism should their glorious leader be thwarted in his attempts to gain amnesty for his crimes and come back to take over the country as his own.

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

Militants that attack peaceful protesters with weapons of war killing indiscriminately, killing and wounding women and children can never be trusted, what is the tally now 22 dead isn't it and over 700 injured, you must be real proud of the red side you support.

Elections can never come to a successful conclusion if there is intimidation of voters in areas controlled by the reds.

Until reforms can be put in place to ensure free and fair elections there is no chance of an election giving a democratic result.

The only ones resisting an electoral reform process are the remnants of a caretaker cabinet and their strong arm group the reds and they only do this because of vested interest.

It is in the interest of the country and the people of this country to be able to vote freely in an election where every candidate can campaign in every electorate without fear and every voter can vote for their choice without harassment.

Or do you prefer things the way they are?

Elections can't ever happen in Thailand as long as violent PDRC militants strategically attack voters in their own southern strongholds, innocent voters who dare to try voting, and simultaneously execute violent attacks against voters in central areas of Thailand and Bangkok, voters that dare to come out to vote. Simply by strategically attacking and thus shutting down a number of voting precincts in their own areas of the South and Central areas, the violent militants can indefinitely prevent a general election. It would appear you haven't any problem with this, and in fact like it and support it, advocate it.

You seem to support that in 2007 the Army sent out soldiers to threaten voters to accept the coup written constitution and again in 2008 to try to change voters to the Democrat Party instead of the voters' preferred People's Power Party, the predecessor of PTP until it was dissolved by the CC in yet another judicial coup.

Your "true democracy" looks like what it is, which is democracy violently destroyed or just a plain old-fashioned state coerced democracy itself.

People who support or advocate violently destroying elections go beyond the abuses of it by means of bribery or social pressure. People who support or advocate violently suppressing democracy are never to be trusted or believed when they say they are democrats who support democracy and will hold an election. People who violently destroy elections are against elections, always and every time.

No one anywhere or at any time ever improved democracy by violently destroying an election and by physically attacking voters at the polling stations. Never. Not ever.

[rubl]

Elections can't ever happen in Thailand as long as violent PDRC militants strategically attack voters in their own southern strongholds, innocent voters who dare to try voting, and simultaneously execute violent attacks against voters in central areas of Thailand and Bangkok, voters that dare to come out to vote. Simply by strategically attacking and thus shutting down a number of voting precincts in their own areas of the South and Central areas, the violent militants can indefinitely prevent a general election. It would appear you haven't any problem with this, and in fact like it and support it, advocate it.

You seem to support that in 2007 the Army sent out soldiers to threaten voters to accept the coup written constitution and again in 2008 to try to change voters to the Democrat Party instead of the voters' preferred People's Power Party, the predecessor of PTP until it was dissolved by the CC in yet another judicial coup.

Your "true democracy" looks like what it is, which is democracy violently destroyed or just a plain old-fashioned state coerced democracy itself.

People who support or advocate violently destroying elections go beyond the abuses of it by means of bribery or social pressure. People who support or advocate violently suppressing democracy are never to be trusted or believed when they say they are democrats who support democracy and will hold an election. People who violently destroy elections are against elections, always and every time.

No one anywhere or at any time ever improved democracy by violently destroying an election and by physically attacking voters at the polling stations. Never. Not ever.

A bit of distortion there, I think.

From the Feb2 elections result someone posted to show the major victory of Pheu Thai. There's a post here on TV with a nice picture and a link.

I only noted some rough data:

votes                     2011       2014
registered voters         47m         43m
votes cast                35.2m      20.5m
spoiled/invalid/no vote   2.7m       5.88m

region     voters   cast    for parties   invalid
Nation     43m      20.5m    14.64m       5.88m
North       8.5m    4.77m     3m          1.78m/37.24%
NorthEast  16.3m    9m        7.3m        1,71m/19.97%
Central    12.2m    5m        3.2m        1.82m/36.36%
South       1.62m   0.6m       .38m        .21m/36.25%
Bangkok     4.37m   1.13m      .77m        .36m/31.54%

Of course these figures show that especially in the Pheu Thai strongholds North and NorthEast voters were clearly intimidated, oppressed, terrorised and scared away

[Publicus]

Well I am sure they will achieve a political vacuum easily.

Water and electric cut off in strategic venues which will probably include ministry buildings and government offices nationwide so that no function of government can operate.

No ministers able to do their jobs because they will either flee the country for a spell, or hide up north in the Shin bunkers with their knees knocking.

Civil servants walking out on strike across the country.

Many other workers walking out on strike.

And CAPO on top of all this threatening charges of treason to just about everyone in the country who does not side with the Thaksin regime, and pointing out that they can all face the death penalty.... Including the EC commissioners, who mat react by walking out en-masse.

Meanwhile the police running around like headless chickens not knowing what to do or who to shoot at.

Yep... That would be considered a vacuum enough to open the door for the constitutional court to issue a ruling that the senate appoint a new PM to set up a full cabinet under the reason of the government having abandoned their positions and that there is no longer a functioning cabinet.

Very clever indeed.

"Well I am sure they will achieve a political vacuum easily. Very clever indeed."

You sound like you think this is a matter of your undefeated 1st place team playing he winless last place team and that you can smugly enjoy some brandy tea during the jolly good fun match.

Suthep has sworn he is in a fight to the death. A divided Army and military are nervously standing by, as are an organized group of the citizenry in support of the government. Cabinet ministers are being accosted by militant thugs. The fascist Suthep is loose on the streets again. The Senate is determined to ignore the laws and the constitution to appoint an illegitimate and pretender PM and Cabinet. The man in Dubai is in contact with the lawyer in New York drawing up their counter plans.

And you say "very clever indeed."

You think this is a picnic in the park.

Red shirts manning the barricades in 2010, photo by: Claudio Sopranzetti

"Contrasting the “decay” of the present against an imagined golden past, fascist movements aim to turn back the wheel of history. The fascist utopia is basically the anti-thesis to the modern, pluralist and capitalist society. Fascism seeks to overcome the divisions of a fragmented society and the noise of a pluralist culture by melting all differences into a homogeneous, “people’s community”. The trinity of “One Nation, One People, One Leader” aims to purge the chaotic plurality of the industrial society and return to the mythical unity and simplicity of the “agricultural community”.

- See more at: http://kasamaproject.org/threads/entry/the-solstice-part-3#sthash.OIFf8eS0.dpuf

[rubl]

Fascists to the left, fascists to the right.

That would leave the undemocratic Yingluck government in the middle I guess?

BTW from the kasama website, from their "What is Kasama?"

"Kasama is first of all a communist project.

By that we mean: The problems of humanity require communism – a global change that passes through the radical overthrow of a society of rich and poor, the development of a socialist sustainability to save the biosphere, the liberation of women from ancient subordination, the final overthrow of racist oppressions in the U.S., the ending of the vicious demonization of same-sex relationships, an abrupt end to this militarized empire (its global networks of mercenary forces, its torture camps and endless wars), the social takeover of monster banks and corporations — all of which requires radically new forms of democratic control by previously powerless people."

http://kasamaproject.org/so-what-is-kasama

[Publicus]

Towards the end of 2010 Thais I've known intimately for many years started saying openly to me that Thailand on its trajectory was going to end up "kaput." Many of the Thais I've known longest and the best say this. I asked them back then if the former LOS can change its trajectory and, if so, how and in what ways. My intimate Thai friends looked at me and blinked. They still blink. They still only blink but with a greater pain in their eyes than before.

I tell them that if that's their attitude, then they are suicidal. They concede my point and concur. Thailand will go kaput and Thailand is well into the process of becoming kaput. I ask what that means and they shrug. They are genuine.

Thais don't know how to win. So they win by losing. They did it against the Burmese twice in the second millennium from Sukhothai to Ayutthaya and then on to Bangkok. As a point of opposite perspective, Washington DC and Bangkok were founded at the same time in history. Recall Suthep vowed to eject the Shinawatras from Thailand if it takes him to his death to do it, which we know is the Thai way to say, well, to the death. Cheerful, these people.

The Thais will fight the current and ongoing fight until the other guy loses. Trouble is, Thais don't know how to win. Indeed, neither side is winning. The bottom line is that neither side can win for losing so each side will lose. Both sides are cooked - there isn't a winner here. Thais are poor to articulate this in any way, shape or form. They just sense it in their bones.

Kaput

Well there is some truth in what you say. In 2010 the Thai's set them selves on a dangerous path when they did not completely crush the red shirts.

It just occurred to me they have a sitting interim Prime Minister who was not elected by them. Why are they not calling for him to step down? They did for Abhist. Double standards I guess. All is possible when you receive your paycheck from Thaksin Shinawatra and do the bidding of him and his clan.

I'm always entertained by people who are certain they are clever.

Given I don't presume to speak for others, nor do I speculate, you'd need to ask your question of the people that you make the subject of your post, i.e., "the red shirts.".

STAMP

Next.

[Thailand]

Not Sutheps big hope the countries big hope.

The sooner the 26 appointed by Thaksin acting caretaker cabinet ministers are out of it the sooner the country can move forward towards a true democracy.

They are the main thing standing in the way of progress.

Them and their red army that is, the leaders of which are being paid to rally the gullible with hate, lies and money and who preach civil war and separatism should their glorious leader be thwarted in his attempts to gain amnesty for his crimes and come back to take over the country as his own.

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

As we have said a thousand times before democracy means far more than simply voting. Mugabe held elections, as did Hun Sen and other despots. Does this mean their countries (using your argument) are democratic? Far from it and this is something that has been recognised by Thais. As for stopping an election, the EC and other bodies said that it should not go ahead. Thai people, in any case, voted with their feet: Many stayed away and many spoiled their papers making the election a non-election from whatever point of view. The sooner daft posters here who are in awe of the exiled fascist and autocrat, a person who has never ever respected democracy himself, actually recognise and understand what is going on here, the better.

Comparing Thailand to Zimbabwe is about as daft as you can get but I expect you will give it a try?

[Publicus]

Not Sutheps big hope the countries big hope.

The sooner the 26 appointed by Thaksin acting caretaker cabinet ministers are out of it the sooner the country can move forward towards a true democracy.

They are the main thing standing in the way of progress.

Them and their red army that is, the leaders of which are being paid to rally the gullible with hate, lies and money and who preach civil war and separatism should their glorious leader be thwarted in his attempts to gain amnesty for his crimes and come back to take over the country as his own.

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

There is a grain of truth in what you say. But, no one ever saved democracy by standing by whilst others dismantled it all the name of giving the people "real freedom and democracy". The list of tin-pot dictators from Lenin to Gaddafi is full of those who created "family despotic dynasties" and claimed they were for the people. Strange how these crooks turned dictators always manage to become mega rich with huge overseas under declared assets whilst their "people" become poor. Some like the Ceaucescu's, the Gaddafis, etc feel the wrath when the people finally get fed up with the lies.

Indeed, in the 2011 general election the voters fired Abhisit and his whole crew.

In the 2001 general election the voters fired Chuan and his whole crew.

In 2014 the DP isn't about the make the same mistake twice again - not ever again.

Abhisit and the DP seem to think they know how to be Ceaucescu and to avoid his fate.

Hubris.

[ginjag]

Not Sutheps big hope the countries big hope.

The sooner the 26 appointed by Thaksin acting caretaker cabinet ministers are out of it the sooner the country can move forward towards a true democracy.

They are the main thing standing in the way of progress.

Them and their red army that is, the leaders of which are being paid to rally the gullible with hate, lies and money and who preach civil war and separatism should their glorious leader be thwarted in his attempts to gain amnesty for his crimes and come back to take over the country as his own.

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

As we have said a thousand times before democracy means far more than simply voting. Mugabe held elections, as did Hun Sen and other despots. Does this mean their countries (using your argument) are democratic? Far from it and this is something that has been recognised by Thais. As for stopping an election, the EC and other bodies said that it should not go ahead. Thai people, in any case, voted with their feet: Many stayed away and many spoiled their papers making the election a non-election from whatever point of view. The sooner daft posters here who are in awe of the exiled fascist and autocrat, a person who has never ever respected democracy himself, actually recognise and understand what is going on here, the better.

Comparing Thailand to Zimbabwe is about as daft as you can get but I expect you will give it a try?

Forget the actual people, try thinking about who runs or ran these countries. and compare==Mug/Zim.....Cambodian mug.....Thaksin mug Nth K. mug etc.

There is more of a similarity here than UK-France-Holland etc--not perfect by any means but democratic lines--the above mentioned dictatorial -CONTROL FREAKS.

[anteater]

Let the fascist Suthep has his last hurrah before spend jail time. The caretaker government will not bow to him neither are the Reds. They keep re-cycling their allies and plans. Same old face Komsan, staunch Suthep lackey who called for general strike last November and not many responded and the attempt went flat. The Senate can do their song and dance but it will never get their interim PM as their act and speaker are illegal. This week will pass like any other week and by next week, Suthep will announce another Mother of all final push.

Anybody who has studied fascism would not call Suthep a fascist. It beggars belief that people use this term referring to Suthep.

He illegally blocks off and takes over large areas of the capital, defies legally-constituted authorities, calls repeatedly for the overthrow of an elected government, intimidates and harasses political opponents, employs bully boys to detain and beat up those who don't 'conform', blocks polling booths and physically threatens those citizens who try to vote, calls for Thailand to be run by an unelected leader. I call that a fascist.

[chotthee]

Not Sutheps big hope the countries big hope.

The sooner the 26 appointed by Thaksin acting caretaker cabinet ministers are out of it the sooner the country can move forward towards a true democracy.

They are the main thing standing in the way of progress.

Them and their red army that is, the leaders of which are being paid to rally the gullible with hate, lies and money and who preach civil war and separatism should their glorious leader be thwarted in his attempts to gain amnesty for his crimes and come back to take over the country as his own.

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

There is a grain of truth in what you say. But, no one ever saved democracy by standing by whilst others dismantled it all the name of giving the people "real freedom and democracy". The list of tin-pot dictators from Lenin to Gaddafi is full of those who created "family despotic dynasties" and claimed they were for the people. Strange how these crooks turned dictators always manage to become mega rich with huge overseas under declared assets whilst their "people" become poor. Some like the Ceaucescu's, the Gaddafis, etc feel the wrath when the people finally get fed up with the lies.

Indeed, in the 2011 general election the voters fired Abhisit and his whole crew.

In the 2001 general election the voters fired Chuan and his whole crew.

In 2014 the DP isn't about the make the same mistake twice again - not ever again.

Abhisit and the DP seem to think they know how to be Ceaucescu and to avoid his fate.

Hubris.

Thaksin is the Ceaucescu, Hilter, Saddam, etc.

Not Abhisit, and definately not Suthep.

[Publicus]

Militants that attack innocent voters at the polling stations to stop them voting and that forcefully try to stop an election are never to be believed or trusted when they promise they are democrats, favor democracy, and will hold an election.

No one anywhere or any time ever improved democracy by violently and forcibly stopping and thereby destroying it - and announcing they will do it again.

There is a grain of truth in what you say. But, no one ever saved democracy by standing by whilst others dismantled it all the name of giving the people "real freedom and democracy". The list of tin-pot dictators from Lenin to Gaddafi is full of those who created "family despotic dynasties" and claimed they were for the people. Strange how these crooks turned dictators always manage to become mega rich with huge overseas under declared assets whilst their "people" become poor. Some like the Ceaucescu's, the Gaddafis, etc feel the wrath when the people finally get fed up with the lies.

Indeed, in the 2011 general election the voters fired Abhisit and his whole crew.

In the 2001 general election the voters fired Chuan and his whole crew.

In 2014 the DP isn't about the make the same mistake twice again - not ever again.

Abhisit and the DP seem to think they know how to be Ceaucescu and to avoid his fate.

Hubris.

Thaksin is the Ceaucescu, Hilter, Saddam, etc.

Not Abhisit, and definately not Suthep.

It's predictable that you guys would come back glib, trite, bass akwards.

Keep up the self-embarrassing work.

[Publicus]

Elections can't ever happen in Thailand as long as violent PDRC militants strategically attack voters in their own southern strongholds, innocent voters who dare to try voting, and simultaneously execute violent attacks against voters in central areas of Thailand and Bangkok, voters that dare to come out to vote. Simply by strategically attacking and thus shutting down a number of voting precincts in their own areas of the South and Central areas, the violent militants can indefinitely prevent a general election. It would appear you haven't any problem with this, and in fact like it and support it, advocate it.

You seem to support that in 2007 the Army sent out soldiers to threaten voters to accept the coup written constitution and again in 2008 to try to change voters to the Democrat Party instead of the voters' preferred People's Power Party, the predecessor of PTP until it was dissolved by the CC in yet another judicial coup.

Your "true democracy" looks like what it is, which is democracy violently destroyed or just a plain old-fashioned state coerced democracy itself.

People who support or advocate violently destroying elections go beyond the abuses of it by means of bribery or social pressure. People who support or advocate violently suppressing democracy are never to be trusted or believed when they say they are democrats who support democracy and will hold an election. People who violently destroy elections are against elections, always and every time.

No one anywhere or at any time ever improved democracy by violently destroying an election and by physically attacking voters at the polling stations. Never. Not ever.

A bit of distortion there, I think.

From the Feb2 elections result someone posted to show the major victory of Pheu Thai. There's a post here on TV with a nice picture and a link.

I only noted some rough data:

votes                     2011       2014
registered voters         47m         43m
votes cast                35.2m      20.5m
spoiled/invalid/no vote   2.7m       5.88m

region     voters   cast    for parties   invalid
Nation     43m      20.5m    14.64m       5.88m
North       8.5m    4.77m     3m          1.78m/37.24%
NorthEast  16.3m    9m        7.3m        1,71m/19.97%
Central    12.2m    5m        3.2m        1.82m/36.36%
South       1.62m   0.6m       .38m        .21m/36.25%
Bangkok     4.37m   1.13m      .77m        .36m/31.54%

Of course these figures show that especially in the Pheu Thai strongholds North and NorthEast voters were clearly intimidated, oppressed, terrorised and scared away

My post addresses the strategic destruction of the election by having the fascist PDRC thugs close the polling stations in their own voting precinct stations in their own home territory.

I though you could read for at least some comprehension.

The militant thugs didn't have to go up north to scare voters.

You know this, and you know the thugs were concentrated in their own region - the South, Bangkok, some of the Central Plains - to intimidate enough voters to shut down 10% of precinct polling stations, which the judges of course found sufficient to nullify the election while ignoring or dismissing the cause, which was Suthep, the cave man PDRc, their assigned thugs.

No one any time anywhere ever improved democracy by violently attacking innocent voters at the polling stations for the strategic purpose of cancelling the election. No one. Never. Not ever. Never believe such people when they tell you they believe in equal democracy and that they will hold elections. Never. Not ever.

People determined to "seize power" are not democrats who believe in democratic processes or in equal vote elections.

Your assertions in marching out data that are irrelevant and immaterial are specious.

[ginjag]

Elections can't ever happen in Thailand as long as violent PDRC militants strategically attack voters in their own southern strongholds, innocent voters who dare to try voting, and simultaneously execute violent attacks against voters in central areas of Thailand and Bangkok, voters that dare to come out to vote. Simply by strategically attacking and thus shutting down a number of voting precincts in their own areas of the South and Central areas, the violent militants can indefinitely prevent a general election. It would appear you haven't any problem with this, and in fact like it and support it, advocate it.

You seem to support that in 2007 the Army sent out soldiers to threaten voters to accept the coup written constitution and again in 2008 to try to change voters to the Democrat Party instead of the voters' preferred People's Power Party, the predecessor of PTP until it was dissolved by the CC in yet another judicial coup.

Your "true democracy" looks like what it is, which is democracy violently destroyed or just a plain old-fashioned state coerced democracy itself.

People who support or advocate violently destroying elections go beyond the abuses of it by means of bribery or social pressure. People who support or advocate violently suppressing democracy are never to be trusted or believed when they say they are democrats who support democracy and will hold an election. People who violently destroy elections are against elections, always and every time.

No one anywhere or at any time ever improved democracy by violently destroying an election and by physically attacking voters at the polling stations. Never. Not ever.

A bit of distortion there, I think.

From the Feb2 elections result someone posted to show the major victory of Pheu Thai. There's a post here on TV with a nice picture and a link.

I only noted some rough data:

votes                     2011       2014
registered voters         47m         43m
votes cast                35.2m      20.5m
spoiled/invalid/no vote   2.7m       5.88m

region     voters   cast    for parties   invalid
Nation     43m      20.5m    14.64m       5.88m
North       8.5m    4.77m     3m          1.78m/37.24%
NorthEast  16.3m    9m        7.3m        1,71m/19.97%
Central    12.2m    5m        3.2m        1.82m/36.36%
South       1.62m   0.6m       .38m        .21m/36.25%
Bangkok     4.37m   1.13m      .77m        .36m/31.54%

Of course these figures show that especially in the Pheu Thai strongholds North and NorthEast voters were clearly intimidated, oppressed, terrorised and scared away

My post addresses the strategic destruction of the election by having the fascist PDRC thugs close the polling stations in their own voting precinct stations in their own home territory.

I though you could read for at least some comprehension.

The militant thugs didn't have to go up north to scare voters.

You know this, and you know the thugs were concentrated in their own region - the South, Bangkok, some of the Central Plains - to intimidate enough voters to shut down 10% of precinct polling stations, which the judges of course found sufficient to nullify the election while ignoring or dismissing the cause, which was Suthep, the cave man PDRc, their assigned thugs.

No one any time anywhere ever improved democracy by violently attacking innocent voters at the polling stations for the strategic purpose of cancelling the election. No one. Never. Not ever. Never believe such people when they tell you they believe in equal democracy and that they will hold elections. Never. Not ever.

People determined to "seize power" are not democrats who believe in democratic processes or in equal vote elections.

Your assertions in marching out data that are irrelevant and immaterial are specious.

Maybe their is little difference, BUT a dictatorial government duly elected failed to be a democratic government --no demo government breaks the law, You see I do admit to both, you are single minded with red blinkers on--and will never change.

I just want to add, where are all your clan gone today ??? out of about 20 at least on political topics yesterday few are mouthing the denials today---just observing that many have melted back.

Hit and run merchants not dissimilar to the red brigade.

PTP did not seize power to get duly elected, but did you notice slowly and surely they tightened their grip once elected. demo government with no or little in the way of audits--book keeping. what does that tell anyone when your in business---we call it monkey business.

[Publicus]

Elections can't ever happen in Thailand as long as violent PDRC militants strategically attack voters in their own southern strongholds, innocent voters who dare to try voting, and simultaneously execute violent attacks against voters in central areas of Thailand and Bangkok, voters that dare to come out to vote. Simply by strategically attacking and thus shutting down a number of voting precincts in their own areas of the South and Central areas, the violent militants can indefinitely prevent a general election. It would appear you haven't any problem with this, and in fact like it and support it, advocate it.

You seem to support that in 2007 the Army sent out soldiers to threaten voters to accept the coup written constitution and again in 2008 to try to change voters to the Democrat Party instead of the voters' preferred People's Power Party, the predecessor of PTP until it was dissolved by the CC in yet another judicial coup.

Your "true democracy" looks like what it is, which is democracy violently destroyed or just a plain old-fashioned state coerced democracy itself.

People who support or advocate violently destroying elections go beyond the abuses of it by means of bribery or social pressure. People who support or advocate violently suppressing democracy are never to be trusted or believed when they say they are democrats who support democracy and will hold an election. People who violently destroy elections are against elections, always and every time.

No one anywhere or at any time ever improved democracy by violently destroying an election and by physically attacking voters at the polling stations. Never. Not ever.

A bit of distortion there, I think.

From the Feb2 elections result someone posted to show the major victory of Pheu Thai. There's a post here on TV with a nice picture and a link.

I only noted some rough data:

votes                     2011       2014
registered voters         47m         43m
votes cast                35.2m      20.5m
spoiled/invalid/no vote   2.7m       5.88m

region     voters   cast    for parties   invalid
Nation     43m      20.5m    14.64m       5.88m
North       8.5m    4.77m     3m          1.78m/37.24%
NorthEast  16.3m    9m        7.3m        1,71m/19.97%
Central    12.2m    5m        3.2m        1.82m/36.36%
South       1.62m   0.6m       .38m        .21m/36.25%
Bangkok     4.37m   1.13m      .77m        .36m/31.54%

Of course these figures show that especially in the Pheu Thai strongholds North and NorthEast voters were clearly intimidated, oppressed, terrorised and scared away

My post addresses the strategic destruction of the election by having the fascist PDRC thugs close the polling stations in their own voting precinct stations in their own home territory.

I though you could read for at least some comprehension.

The militant thugs didn't have to go up north to scare voters.

You know this, and you know the thugs were concentrated in their own region - the South, Bangkok, some of the Central Plains - to intimidate enough voters to shut down 10% of precinct polling stations, which the judges of course found sufficient to nullify the election while ignoring or dismissing the cause, which was Suthep, the cave man PDRc, their assigned thugs.

No one any time anywhere ever improved democracy by violently attacking innocent voters at the polling stations for the strategic purpose of cancelling the election. No one. Never. Not ever. Never believe such people when they tell you they believe in equal democracy and that they will hold elections. Never. Not ever.

People determined to "seize power" are not democrats who believe in democratic processes or in equal vote elections.

Your assertions in marching out data that are irrelevant and immaterial are specious.

Maybe their is little difference, BUT a dictatorial government duly elected failed to be a democratic government --no demo government breaks the law, You see I do admit to both, you are single minded with red blinkers on--and will never change.

I just want to add, where are all your clan gone today ??? out of about 20 at least on political topics yesterday few are mouthing the denials today---just observing that many have melted back.

Hit and run merchants not dissimilar to the red brigade.

PTP did not seize power to get duly elected, but did you notice slowly and surely they tightened their grip once elected. demo government with no or little in the way of audits--book keeping. what does that tell anyone when your in business---we call it monkey business.

"I just want to add, where are all your clan gone today ??? out of about 20 at least on political topics yesterday few are mouthing the denials today---just observing that many have melted back.

"Hit and run merchants not dissimilar to the red brigade."

People who post here are anonymous, right? Let's anyway hope against hope about that.

So don't presume or otherwise try to assert that I should or need to account for the decisions or the choices of others that you presume to connect me to, whether they be TVF posters, the government, the reds or any one who may be in a certain far off land specifically or in particular.

I'd like to believe your question is rhetorical but I'm not confident you're up to that level.

You also presume a great deal to say others will never change their fundamental world view and their principles held over decades of tested time, events, circumstances. Some people adhere to their considered world view while others pursue their rote dogmas. If the shoe fits, wear it.

[ginjag]

My post addresses the strategic destruction of the election by having the fascist PDRC thugs close the polling stations in their own voting precinct stations in their own home territory.

I though you could read for at least some comprehension.

The militant thugs didn't have to go up north to scare voters.

You know this, and you know the thugs were concentrated in their own region - the South, Bangkok, some of the Central Plains - to intimidate enough voters to shut down 10% of precinct polling stations, which the judges of course found sufficient to nullify the election while ignoring or dismissing the cause, which was Suthep, the cave man PDRc, their assigned thugs.

No one any time anywhere ever improved democracy by violently attacking innocent voters at the polling stations for the strategic purpose of cancelling the election. No one. Never. Not ever. Never believe such people when they tell you they believe in equal democracy and that they will hold elections. Never. Not ever.

People determined to "seize power" are not democrats who believe in democratic processes or in equal vote elections.

Your assertions in marching out data that are irrelevant and immaterial are specious.

Maybe their is little difference, BUT a dictatorial government duly elected failed to be a democratic government --no demo government breaks the law, You see I do admit to both, you are single minded with red blinkers on--and will never change.

I just want to add, where are all your clan gone today ??? out of about 20 at least on political topics yesterday few are mouthing the denials today---just observing that many have melted back.

Hit and run merchants not dissimilar to the red brigade.

PTP did not seize power to get duly elected, but did you notice slowly and surely they tightened their grip once elected. demo government with no or little in the way of audits--book keeping. what does that tell anyone when your in business---we call it monkey business.

"I just want to add, where are all your clan gone today ??? out of about 20 at least on political topics yesterday few are mouthing the denials today---just observing that many have melted back.

"Hit and run merchants not dissimilar to the red brigade."

People who post here are anonymous, right? Let's anyway hope against hope about that.

So don't presume or otherwise try to assert that I should or need to account for the decisions or the choices of others that you presume to connect me to, whether they be TVF posters, the government, the reds or any one who may be in a certain far off land specifically or in particular.

I'd like to believe your question is rhetorical but I'm not confident you're up to that level.

You also presume a great deal to say others will never change their fundamental world view and their principles held over decades of tested time, events, circumstances. Some people adhere to their considered world view while others pursue their rote dogmas. If the shoe fits, wear it.

You place all the anti demo gov posters together as they should not criticize PTP. In similar fashion you and many more threw at anti PTP posters were all suthep lovers, so your no saint when it comes to assuming ???

I connect you along with any one who thinks that PTP were running a demo government and I shouted loud they were not--they defied the law.

If you condemned the PTP for many actions and also kept your belief in them that to me is healthy, but all along you took the YES--denial stance and that is why posters connected you with the pro propaganda.

[Publicus]

Maybe their is little difference, BUT a dictatorial government duly elected failed to be a democratic government --no demo government breaks the law, You see I do admit to both, you are single minded with red blinkers on--and will never change.

I just want to add, where are all your clan gone today ??? out of about 20 at least on political topics yesterday few are mouthing the denials today---just observing that many have melted back.

Hit and run merchants not dissimilar to the red brigade.

PTP did not seize power to get duly elected, but did you notice slowly and surely they tightened their grip once elected. demo government with no or little in the way of audits--book keeping. what does that tell anyone when your in business---we call it monkey business.

"I just want to add, where are all your clan gone today ??? out of about 20 at least on political topics yesterday few are mouthing the denials today---just observing that many have melted back.

"Hit and run merchants not dissimilar to the red brigade."

People who post here are anonymous, right? Let's anyway hope against hope about that.

So don't presume or otherwise try to assert that I should or need to account for the decisions or the choices of others that you presume to connect me to, whether they be TVF posters, the government, the reds or any one who may be in a certain far off land specifically or in particular.

I'd like to believe your question is rhetorical but I'm not confident you're up to that level.

You also presume a great deal to say others will never change their fundamental world view and their principles held over decades of tested time, events, circumstances. Some people adhere to their considered world view while others pursue their rote dogmas. If the shoe fits, wear it.

You place all the anti demo gov posters together as they should not criticize PTP. In similar fashion you and many more threw at anti PTP posters were all suthep lovers, so your no saint when it comes to assuming ???

I connect you along with any one who thinks that PTP were running a demo government and I shouted loud they were not--they defied the law.

If you condemned the PTP for many actions and also kept your belief in them that to me is healthy, but all along you took the YES--denial stance and that is why posters connected you with the pro propaganda.

I don't go around denying things that may be occurring in Thailand.

I am anti-fascist.

Move along please, thank you.