National Park Fees To Double Again....

[TokyoT]

Just a silly question really.

How many of the people reading this thread and posting on the forum regularly visit national parks.

I never go because of the dual pricing. Me Mum was over for a visit last year, and we took her around to see the sights. Anyplace that had dual pricing I did not enter. My Mrs took me Mum (and me Mum paid the higher price), while I waited in the wings for their return.

It’s not about the money, it’s about the principle – dual pricing IMHO is fundamentally wrong and I refuse to take part. Even on trips to Patters I refuse to use the baht buses – it’s not about the extra baht (I mean it’s a baht bus for the love of God, and that little bit extra will not break my bank), it’s the principle of dual pricing.

Maybe I am missing out, but if everyone did as I do (don’t go) then the dual pricing would soon disappear. Or then again following the Thai train of thought for real estate – if it does not rent out then raise the price? would hold true in the dual pricing as well. Maybe if less tourists come they will simply continue to raise the prices to make up for the lower head count?

[poorfarang]

In my experience, Getting the 'Thai Price' is not very hard.

Im no Thai expert but when I am in these situations I speak very kindly in Thai and hand them the amount of the thai price. Sometimes they look at me for a second confused but they almost always accept.**

** I say ALMOST because there was ONE time when it didnt work for me. At the Chaing Mai zoo we went to the panda exhibit once and they insisted that I pay the farang price.

So if you can speak a few words of thai in a nice tone with a smile on your face then you usally wont have a problem. It also helps if you hand them the "correct" amount. Like when I went to Koh Samet with my lady I handed the man 40 baht and said "Song khun krup" with a smile, he looked and me and quickly moved along to the next farang. If I had paid with a 1000 baht bill then he might have charged me the farang price when getting change. I have visited many places and have has the same experience.

I dont understand people saying that they are showing tax papers and id cards and what not. Are you offering this information to the person, trying to justify you getting the thai price? Save your time. Hand them the thai price, smile and say a few kind words and move along.

Is this wrong? Hel| no. Double pricing is wrong.

At least the people who live here should get the Thai price. I am pumping enough cash into this economy that I see nothing wrong with this.

[cmsally]

I, too, have lived here a long time, do not drink (nor hang out in bars) and have visited National Parks in the past but my husband will not go to a place that charges his wife 10 times what he has to pay. He finds the double pricing unfair and offensive. I think he figures that somehow, being his wife, and as he is the one who supports me, I shouldn't have to pay inflated prices simply based on the color of my skin or nationality.

I am in the same boat as SBK. Why should I have to pay 10 times more than my husband; he's the one that is supporting me. So they are effectively making a Thai pay that price.

I know there other Asian nationalities that slip through paying the Thai price, but when you are a farang that is simply not possible. Sometimes I have got through paying a Thai price but often than not they won't allow it. I am not going to get into arguments with the guy on the gate because its not his problem or policy.

I couldn't really care a less if its 40 instead of 20 bt or whatever but when it gets to the stage of being charged 10 times more or whatever its plain ridiculous.

What bothers me more is that how much of this is going into the preservation and research within National Parks. And by that I don't mean building more roads through Khao Yai or another icecream stand near the gate. When Thailand shows its commited to improving the environment and conserving its natural resources, maybe its worth paying for; but until then - no thank you.

[allane]

Some thoughts on this matter from a 10 year resident (who was living here when the National Park admission fees were raised from 5 baht (for Thai's) and 20 baht (for foreigners) to 20 baht and 200 baht respectively.

1. In my time in this country, the issue of "dual pricing"for Thai's and foreigners has always been one of the most frequently discussed in forums such as this and "Letters to the Editor" in the English-language newspapers etc.etc. And, more than 10 YEARS OF COMPLAINING ABOUT IT HAS ACCOMPISHED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. I am not optimistic that that will change anytime soon.

2. At the time of the last increase, I wrote a very polite letter to the "Director of National Parks". To my utter astonishment, I received a reply, saying, in effect "We know that this is unfair to people like you, but we aren't sure what to do about it." Since then, I and others have managed to obtain concessions by presenting copies of Income Tax Cards, Work Permits etc. It is also helpful to state that you are only there for a day visit, in those National Parks where overnight camping is allowed.

3. I recall that last time, Thai tourist operators were upset, and presumably made representations to the government. As far as I know, their efforts achieved absolutely nothing. Some time after the last increase, I remember seeing a newspaper story about an operator who had to pay 600 baht for each of his customers, because his tour bus was passing through three National Parks ! The story didn't say, but I don't know if the bus was even STOPPING in each park, or simply passing through some of them.

4. I am assuming that if the directive has not yet been published in English, it may be some sort of "Draft for dDscussion" ? (Surely this measure, of any, would be published in English if it is already official regulation ?)

5. A few "do's and don'ts" as we proceed on this issue:

a) Be calm and polite. Don't raise your voice, start banging your fist on the counter etc. etc. Choose your language carefully if making written representations, keeeping in mind that it will be read by someone whose first language is not the same as yours.

If you are Caucasian, don't bother suggesting that non-Thai Asians ought to pay the higher fee too. Two wrongs don't make a right, and our objective should not be to have additional people treated unfairly too.

c) Don't bother making idle threats that you aren't willing to keep. I am not impressed by those, and I don't think that any Thai person is either.

d) Don't bother lecturing Thai people about your notion of "human rights". Whatever your notion is, it doesn't apply in Thailand. As a foreigner in Thailand, you have only one "human right", that being the right to leave if you don't like it here.

e) Be prepared to lose on this issue, at least as it affects foreign tourists. No one was able to stop the last increase, though we foreigners who are resident here did achieve some mitigation of its effects on ourselves, through "quiet diplomacy."

[Jai Dee]

Some very good advice there allane... excellent post.

[KhunMarco]

Some very good advice there allane... excellent post.

Yup, nice post.

I'd like to add:

Let your friends on their first visit to Thailand ,know about this policy. Let them make an informed choice.

It's my experience that most of the tourists aren't aware of this practice.

That's also what friends are for, in my book.

[TokyoT]

d) Don't bother lecturing Thai people about your notion of "human rights". Whatever your notion is, it doesn't apply in Thailand. As a foreigner in Thailand, you have only one "human right", that being the right to leave if you don't like it here.

Here, Here, the Thai government has proven again and again that the Thai notion of human rights is far removed from the western notion of human rights. Just ask all those nasty drug dealers.

[ProfessorFart]

One reson so few Westerners visit NPs anymore (myself included) is because I find 200B to go for a wander through usually crowded places full of larriking Thais on a toot, throwing litter everywhere, a tad of a rip off.

I haven't been to a NP in ages but probably would go a lot more often were the price more reasonable. There are exceptions but not too many these days alas.

At 400B I can expect Western visitors to NPs to tail off pretty much totally.

Another scandal recently was getting charger 100B to take the train to Kanchanaburi!? 100B for a 3rd class train trip! I showed my WP and got the local price in a shot but was not too impressed by that scandal either.

Its taking the p*ss plain and simple. The tired old 'We're from rich nations' argument as put forward by that geezer in his odd essay above doesn't wash and never has.

[womble]

I think a couple of years back they changed a rule so that by paying entry to one national park you could enter other national parks on that day for no extra charge.

[Sing_Sling]

d) Don't bother lecturing Thai people about your notion of "human rights". Whatever your notion is, it doesn't apply in Thailand. As a foreigner in Thailand, you have only one "human right", that being the right to leave if you don't like it here.

Here, Here, the Thai government has proven again and again that the Thai notion of human rights is far removed from the western notion of human rights. Just ask all those nasty drug dealers.

How upsetting it is to hear one's own countrymen saying to Asians/Blacks (and Brits - kidding):

If you don't like it here, then p!ss off back to your own country, ya chink/<deleted>/dago whatever . . .

We hear this and deplore it, it makes us cringe to hear cra@p like this, yet it is completely acceptable in some places, like Thailand . . .

Sucks!

Edited June 16, 2006 by Sing_Sling

[Tarragona]

I dont understand people saying that they are showing tax papers and id cards and what not. Are you offering this information to the person, trying to justify you getting the thai price?

People are showing them because it's something they ask to see. I have done the 'hand-them-the-correct-amount' routine and they said that's great if I show them my tax card. On another occasion, I asked first and again they requested to see the tax card (and weren't interested in the work permit).

[Galong]

yes , double pricing is for those who are happy to be taken advantage of on grounds of race.

this second doubling to 400b should be music to the ears and pleasure to the pockets of those who believe that all foriegners are rich , and all thais are poor , (even the ones turning up at the parks in 2 million baht suv's with 21st century camping equipment and tv's and dvd's ) and its our duty to patronisingly and sheepishly pay them what they unfairly demand of us.

Now THAT is hitting the nail on the head. I am sick and tire of the 'poor Thais' BS. There are plenty of Thais will a lot more money than I will ever have.

I'm sorry, but basing a price on skin color is low-class, blatant racism.

I go to national parks all the time. IF they actually did something to improve the parks, like enforcing the noise laws, I'd be happy to pay more. IF they cleaned up all of the trash that the locals leave behind, I'd be happier with the price imbalance. IF they did anything to improve the quality of live for the animals that live in the parks, I'd be happy to pay even more. But, the reality of the situation is that this extra money will go into Benz payments in many cases.

KhunMarco, shame on you for stereotyping Westerners. Assuming (or saying) that most or all Westerners are here to shag poor little Thais and get drunk everynight makes you look like a real dumbass. I, for one, am here for nature and the weather. All I ask out of the government is fairness in pricing and the enforcing of their own laws designed to protect Nature.

I spent over one million baht in Khao Sok National Park last year. I go there every week and all I'm seeing is more cheap charlie mass tourism operators coming in to party. I've seen nothing done to help make this wonderful place a true natural/national treasure.

[jackr]

WHAT A <deleted> RIP OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[KhunMarco]

KhunMarco, shame on you for stereotyping Westerners.

Herm , just for the record , the post you are referring was written by billd766

I'm absolutely on your side

Edited June 16, 2006 by KhunMarco

[jdinasia]

I'll STILL wait for an official announcement on this :-)

but no matter ... I'll still go and 95%+ of the time get in for local price

[OZONE]

yes , double pricing is for those who are happy to be taken advantage of on grounds of race.

this second doubling to 400b should be music to the ears and pleasure to the pockets of those who believe that all foriegners are rich , and all thais are poor , (even the ones turning up at the parks in 2 million baht suv's with 21st century camping equipment and tv's and dvd's ) and its our duty to patronisingly and sheepishly pay them what they unfairly demand of us.

I spent over one million baht in Khao Sok National Park last year. I go there every week and all I'm seeing is more cheap charlie mass tourism operators coming in to party. I've seen nothing done to help make this wonderful place a true natural/national treasure.

If you save your receipt you wouldn't have to keep paying entry fee

Edited June 16, 2006 by OZONE

[jdinasia]

1,000,000/52= approaching 20k a week .....

*cough*

<special aside ... wonder what GW would think?>

[egeefay]

At the risk of pissing off the very friendly group of people who populate this board, I want to say that this policy strikes me as reasonably fair. Foreigners from wealthier nations should pay more, even if they are paying taxes. It's not really about race or nationality. It's about the assets that make it possible for wealthy Westerners (and some wealthy Easterners) to set up a life here.

So if we base entry fees on "assets", we should make rich Thais pay more and poor farang pensioners pay less. Right?

Edited June 16, 2006 by egeefay

[Jai Yen Yen]

So, you see, for some people, it isn't about the money, but the principle.

Precisely. I could pay easily, but I don't want to. I feel insulted to be treated differently. I hope all farang boycott National Parks and they all close down. Som nam naa!

[jdinasia]

Sure!

i might not repeat some places that I go often ... but sure! that's about $10 usd ... well within the budget

and JYY ... you ARE different ...

Just like Thai students that go to your home country and pay 5X the tuition are different .....

Edited June 16, 2006 by jdinasia

[Ijustwannateach]

From a commercial/economic point of view, if such a policy is enacted it simply shows ineptitude. It's the same kind of uneducated simplistic thinking that leads many store owners here to think that "higher prices = greater profits," without examining the effect that prices have on demand. Even high school students of economics are usually smarter. The only way in which this policy could have any intentional effect is if the government were intent on indirectly reducing the number of foreign visitors/tourists to national parks, which seems unlikely considering the government's continuing trumpeting of plans to promote Thailand and encourage tourism. Otherwise the biggest effects will be unintentional and perverse- assuming that raising the price of foreign admission will not reduce the number of visits and therefore overall income ("oh, gosh, why didn't the same people come back to our great parks, just because we doubled the entrance price for them only!").

Most educated Thais, however, are not so inept they would miss this. This has all the hallmarks of yet another decision made at a high level by government officials too powerful to criticise, yet too inept or corrupt to govern properly- a common story here in Thailand (and becoming more so in the States, too, to be fair).

From a personal point of view, I must admit that as some previous posters have suggested, I rarely visit national parks; however, part of this rarity comes from a certain disgust at the double pricing [though I could always try to get around it with my tax card- though I have heard mixed reports on the success of such attempts]. One "park" I have often used is Koh Samet; however, given the higher park costs combined with more stringent collection there, along with the over-development and continuing degradation of the site, I have little incentive to go back.

One previous poster unfairly compares this double-pricing to student tuition costs; however, there are also inflated tuition costs at many schools in Thailand for foreigners, and in general students in either country are not primarily income-tax-paying contributors to society (as many foreigners on this board no doubt are).

"Steven"

Edited June 16, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[khall64au]

yes , double pricing is for those who are happy to be taken advantage of on grounds of race.

this second doubling to 400b should be music to the ears and pleasure to the pockets of those who believe that all foriegners are rich , and all thais are poor , (even the ones turning up at the parks in 2 million baht suv's with 21st century camping equipment and tv's and dvd's ) and its our duty to patronisingly and sheepishly pay them what they unfairly demand of us.

Now THAT is hitting the nail on the head. I am sick and tire of the 'poor Thais' BS. There are plenty of Thais will a lot more money than I will ever have.

I'm sorry, but basing a price on skin color is low-class, blatant racism.

I go to national parks all the time. IF they actually did something to improve the parks, like enforcing the noise laws, I'd be happy to pay more. IF they cleaned up all of the trash that the locals leave behind, I'd be happier with the price imbalance. IF they did anything to improve the quality of live for the animals that live in the parks, I'd be happy to pay even more. But, the reality of the situation is that this extra money will go into Benz payments in many cases.

KhunMarco, shame on you for stereotyping Westerners. Assuming (or saying) that most or all Westerners are here to shag poor little Thais and get drunk everynight makes you look like a real dumbass. I, for one, am here for nature and the weather. All I ask out of the government is fairness in pricing and the enforcing of their own laws designed to protect Nature.

I spent over one million baht in Khao Sok National Park last year. I go there every week and all I'm seeing is more cheap charlie mass tourism operators coming in to party. I've seen nothing done to help make this wonderful place a true natural/national treasure.

I hear you loud and clear Galong... I have lived in southern Thailand and, worked in international tourism media promoting this country, for almost 4 yrs now. I am becoming more disillusioned each month with the way westerners are treated here. I will think long and hard now about promoting Thailand's national parks to the world as - I too- see little return from huge amounts of foreign income. Compared to many national parks in western countries ( with lower entrance fees I may add) - Thailand's parks are shameful. Shame, shame, shame!

[jdinasia]

Pardon me ... revise my former post to say Colleges and Universities

One of the formost Uni's in England recently reduced the number of local students it accepts so it can get MORE foriegners to pay 5X as much tuition ... State Unis in the US have 3 tier pricing resident, out-of-state, and international (guess who pays most?) This isn't $5 3-4 times a year either.

Private schools can do as they like ... but I think State Uni's in Thailand have one rate ..... ((And the American Uni here --- crazy $$ for Thailand-- offers discounts to Thais))

I have never heard of a tax id and work permit in tandem NOT get someone in at local prices.

ALL that being said ------ I'll STILL wait for an official announcement!!!

Edited June 16, 2006 by jdinasia

[Jai Yen Yen]

Pardon me ... revise my former post to say Colleges and Universities

One of the formost Uni's in England recently reduced the number of local students it accepts so it can get MORE foriegners to pay 5X as much tuition ...

Fair enough, but two "wrongs" still don't make a "right"!

[jdinasia]

maybe ....

but JYY they don't cry about the tuition and being treated unfairly because of being non____ (insert nation there) Instead they feel greatful to be there and have that opportunity ...

you COULD choose to feel the same

(((and again ... let us wait for an OFFICIAL announcement before getting in a twist!)))

Edited June 16, 2006 by jdinasia

[sriracha john]

I have never heard of a tax id and work permit in tandem NOT get someone in at local prices.

Just off the top of my head and to be quite specific from personal experiences, the following parks would accept ONLY Thai National ID cards for admission at Thai prices:

Pang Sida National Park

Huay Huat National Park

Khao Sam Roi Yot National Marine Park

It is a highly inconsistent policy extended across the country which lends itself to abuse and charges of racism/favoritism, and creates a great deal of resentment. Certainly not worth the ill will it generates.

It's a shame when those in power to effect change ignore the recommendations of those with brains. The solution is right in front of their noses:

Dr. Adis Israngkura, an economist at Chiang Mai University and a consultant to Thailand's first and foremost "think tank" (Thailand Development Research Institute) conducted a research project for TDRI on this very topic and wrote the best paper, "Determining entrance fees to national parks: the case of Thailand" that I have ever encountered on the subject.

The paper, published in 2001, made the following recommendations:

1. Higher fees, for all, to the more popular parks with many facilities, which can subsidize the smaller parks with very few facilities.

2. Higher fees, for all, on long week-ends/holidays when parks tend to be heavily visited to help ease congestion and lessen environmental degradation, which will result in increased visitor satisfaction.

3. Annual memberships and lifetime memberships should be offered and available to all.

4. Both Thai and foreigners should pay the same entrance fee, but special services should be made available to the foreign visitor for additional higher fees, such as English-speaking tour/travel guides or English-language information booklets/maps. "The current policy unnecessarily jeopardizes the the image of the overall tourism industry."

5. Entrances fees should be exempted for the elderly, the handicapped, and children visiting on school trips.

I think when experts, and Thai himself, recognizes it as a problem, it's VERY telling....

Edited June 17, 2006 by sriracha john

[taxexile]

From a commercial/economic point of view, if such a policy is enacted it simply shows ineptitude

maybe or maybe not.

i would imagine that the parks (and other tourist attractions) that operate this policy with the highest number of foriegn visitors are those such as sukkhottai , ayuttaya , the grand palace and some of the chiang mai attractions.

a large number of these visitors come with prepaid coach tours from their hotels or local travel agencies and they will have no knowledge of entrance fees and price differences .

resident visitors , the ones who are most likely to complain or boycott , probably make up a very small proprtion of the total visitors and the possible loss of their custom could well be more than offset by the increased revenue from the coach parties etc.

what seems like ineptitude , may very well be expert canniness of the part of the thais.

either way , it would take a concerted campaign abroad to inform visitors of this policy and i doubt if such a campaign would ever get off the ground. its not a earth shattering cause , just an annoyance and unfairness that i deal with by a boycott.

the insular thais have always had an inflated opinion of their worth and the worth of some of the attractions here , (just compare what you get here for a 400b entrance fee here with what is on offer for a 7pound sterling or 10 euro attraction in europe). the wrinkled old dinosaurs that make and implement policy here will eventually die off to be replaced by people with a broader view of things and thailand will slowly be dragged kicking and screaming into a fairer less xenophobic and divisive world.

[jackr]

Pardon me ... revise my former post to say Colleges and Universities

One of the formost Uni's in England recently reduced the number of local students it accepts so it can get MORE foriegners to pay 5X as much tuition ... State Unis in the US have 3 tier pricing resident, out-of-state, and international (guess who pays most?) This isn't $5 3-4 times a year either.

Private schools can do as they like ... but I think State Uni's in Thailand have one rate ..... ((And the American Uni here --- crazy $$ for Thailand-- offers discounts to Thais))

I have never heard of a tax id and work permit in tandem NOT get someone in at local prices.

ALL that being said ------ I'll STILL wait for an official announcement!!!

Here we go again. I'll say it one more time and maybe you'll get it. The UK unis charge more for outsiders because the governement subs the locals. The Thai government does not subsidize the locals when enterting national parks, it rips off the outsiders.

[Galong]

KhunMarco, shame on you for stereotyping Westerners.

Herm , just for the record , the post you are referring was written by billd766

I'm absolutely on your side

My bad! Sorry...

[Galong]

yes , double pricing is for those who are happy to be taken advantage of on grounds of race.

this second doubling to 400b should be music to the ears and pleasure to the pockets of those who believe that all foriegners are rich , and all thais are poor , (even the ones turning up at the parks in 2 million baht suv's with 21st century camping equipment and tv's and dvd's ) and its our duty to patronisingly and sheepishly pay them what they unfairly demand of us.

I spent over one million baht in Khao Sok National Park last year. I go there every week and all I'm seeing is more cheap charlie mass tourism operators coming in to party. I've seen nothing done to help make this wonderful place a true natural/national treasure.

If you save your receipt you wouldn't have to keep paying entry fee

Say what? I do that already. Each time a new westerner arrives, I must purchase a new park ticket. I don't get where you're coming from... sorry, please explain.