Junta wants sweeping reforms before election

[unanimosity]

Well father in law and the guy who rents wifeys paddy have been waiting for their rice payments since October. Hopefully the Junta will be good for their word and pay the poor farmers within 20 days.

Absolutely, they deserve to be paid. In fact, didn't Yingluck try to pay them but Suthep threatened every bank with mass demonstrations and funds withdrawals to prevent the farmers from getting paid?

[lannarebirth]

From the OP:

The military believes underground movements would soon surface to oppose the coup.

The military dictators and the ammart are deeper into it than they had ever been for a hundred years yet they're still digging.

Good on US Ambassador Kristie Kenney and German Ambassador Rolf Schulze among others for not attending the meeting because, as they said, they want nothing to do with the Thai military as dictators ruling over Thailand. That's an excellent posture by Prez Obama and Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Waiting also for the sanctions coming that were referenced in the OP, by the United States and the European Union. I see the State Department has now issued a travel warning against travel to Thailand, which throws the marker down to begin the international processes to isolate the military dictatorship. Military mutiny coup d'état is already passe' in civilized society but this one is beyond the pale.

has only just begun to begin for the militarists, the military dictators, the ammart. There's a severe shitstorm headed their way.

Security Message for U.S. Citizens: Security Situation in Thailand

Thailand Travel Alert

Last Updated: May 23, 2014

The U.S. Department of State recommends that U.S. citizens reconsider any non-essential travel to Thailand, particularly Bangkok, due to ongoing political and social unrest and restrictions on internal movements, including an indefinite nighttime curfew throughout Thailand. The Department of State has advised official U.S. government travelers to defer all non-essential travel to Thailand until further notice. This Travel Alert supersedes the Travel Alert issued on May 16, 2014.

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service.html

I love to see posts that are straight out of the Robert Amsterdam/Thaksin/Red PR book. Well done Publicus. However, most of the decent and normal working class people I have spoken to would not agree with you and stand squarely behind the army. The ammart are a fiction, blown out of all proportion such as your boss' claim to be a democrat. Role on Thaksin: the ultimate Autocrat!

Given your ignorance, of Thai society, culture, politics, government, I'll enlighten you here and now, for which I'm sure you'd be grateful because now you can have some notional awareness of things you hadn't ever known about Thailand: I am most pleased to educate you in this matter from your non-base of zero knowledge. You believe anything you're told concerning Thailand, so why not believe myself or others over on this side.

The following descriptions are sourced from Michael H Nelson of the Southeast Asia Research Center of the City University of Hong Kong, who was also a Visiting Scholar on the Faculty of Political Science, Chulalongkorn University, in his work, The Electoral Rules Concerning The House of Representatives in the 2007 Thai Constitution. The URL is posted at the conclusion of the post.

*** The informal socio-political networks (categorized as ammart) of leading bureaucrats, technocrats, and academics involved in politics and administration, who claim to possess superior knowledge as well as morality and thus consider themselves to have special rights in guiding the country's social, political and economic directions (this group is Thailand's version of Plato's true navigators).

*** The military as a self-interested and closed organization that also poses as the self-appointed guardian of national unity and survival, protector of the monarchy, and final arbiter about who is allowed to govern the country.

*** The politicians with their vast informal and exclusionary networks at the provincial, regional, and national levels (including their factions and political parties), who claim that they represent the people, and that constitutionally produced electoral success provides them with the democratic legitimacy to govern the country and dominate the other groups and models in terms of policy making.

Not the ammart, but indeed a core essence of Thailand are :

*** The people themselves, who are the supposed sovereign of the democratic political system. Their involvement in politics as citizens,voters, party members, target group of policies, civil society groups, protestors, and social movements has had a rather mixed record, but it has recently been put into focus by a substantial increase in politicization.

Mr Nelson also includes a description of the Thai monarchy which I omit from this post, not because there is anything controversial about it - it is a straightforward factual account by Mr Nelson - but because I personally prefer to exclude the mention or description of the monarchy from the contentious tones of this particular thread and topic.

http://www.academia....ai_Constitution

How is it that the good Mr. Nelson in his description of "informal socio-political networks" failed to include the "chao pho"? Or was it you that left that part out?

http://books.google.com/books?id=-gW9Z0-q_xwC&pg=PA81&dq=provincial+thailand+chao+pho&hl=en&sa=X&ei=czGAU8WbHpD6oAT4h4HgBQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=provincial%20thailand%20chao%20pho&f=false

[Bangel72]

Sweeping reforms before an election are all well and good if they could only find neutral people qualified to do this.

This is the crux of the challenge here, is the army neutral and can they find neutral people to make rational decisions for the benefit of the whole country.

Can we find people who judge by intent of law rather than manipulation of a written/flawed translation of the intent of law

No matter what side you are on if you cannot look at things with a fair and rational stance, it's probably time to step away, your chances of adding any value are minimal and it's time to let those wearing the big pants take this forward. I just hope there are a few good people available with big pants willing to help.

[Rorri]

Well father in law and the guy who rents wifeys paddy have been waiting for their rice payments since October. Hopefully the Junta will be good for their word and pay the poor farmers within 20 days.

The problem I see is the country, does not have the money to pay them, if they "find" money then what else suffers.

If that's the case then I guess they'll be firing up the printing press.

Yes, I believe the Germans did that after WW2, a wheel barrow of money for a loaf of bread.... it sends inflation sky rocketing.

[Rorri]

The country wasn't fixed after the last coup why do people think it will be different this time?

The coup does nothing but solidify the grip that the army has on the country.

You mean after the last 11 successful coups and 9 failed ones. Their success rate in "fixing" problems is zero.

[garrya]

... at least a start into the right direction. Reforms will be massive ...

How do you know they are heading into the right direction??

They have already started or perhaps you hadn't noticed?.

Notice what? Proclaiming dictatorship? Suspending the constitution?

Well done sir / madame. Another lost soul blinded by Loong Suthep.

Why not move to North Korea?

[ikke]

will this also include reform of the rampant corruption in the military?

NO, it will not, neither it will reform Dem's or yellow corruption.

This coup is not about reforms for the people, but for reforming so the yellows can grab power and corruption can be on their side.

[Brian Corrigan]

Where is Billy???

[retsdon]

The same trick as was pulled in Egypt. Block the government from fulfilling its pledges so as to create resentment and unrest, then stage a coup - and all of a sudden the funds that the overthrown government was struggling to release become magically available.

You would need to be a virtual political simpleton to fall for it.

[heybruce]

... at least a start into the right direction. Reforms will be massive ...

Reforms will be selective. You don't think they'll rock the boat with traditional institutions, do you?

[garrya]

Knowing the history of Thailand one might wonder how people can believe that the army is about the make (real) peace and give fair chance to any side.

Although it's nice to see how much effort the military is making to restore peace. However, one must know that corruption had always been rampant even before the Shinawatra clan. (People tend to forget this fact) I don't think that self-proclaimed prime ministers will be able to please the already angry nation.

[heybruce]

election..... isn't that a dirty word to the Royal-Elitist ?..... how could the common Thai-people know what is good for them AND the county!

You are right. The common Thai-people do not even know how to vote. That is why they always had to have the village head man (under payment from Dubai) making sure they voted correctly and simultaneously ensured the continued good health of the family buffalo. That changed 2 days ago!!!

Do you actually believe your ignorant prejudices? I'd ask for evidence, but fools who think they know it all don't believe in evidence.

[heybruce]

... at least a start into the right direction. Reforms will be massive ...

How do you know they are heading into the right direction??

by my sponsoring thought which is guided by unconditional love and not fear as so many others display now.

The sponsoring thought is the main thought thus creating the circumstances for ourselves. In other words the sub-sub concience, which is the most powerful and creating faculty in our life and universe.

It's obvious that reforms are needed.

I recommend to go into stillness to find out which part your(everyone's) sponsoring thoughts are based on.

Western style democracies are running on fear based sponsoring thoughts, thus creating conditions through fear mongering. Thaksin is a groomed copy of that style. This is the number one destructive force. You find far more individuals in the East who are based with (unconditional)love sponsored thoughts.

These are the main reasons to be confident in reforms that benefits all.

Meaning you don't use facts and rational analysis. You have a lot of company on this forum.

[xminator]

So in other words, Junta is dancing in the same strings as Suthep.

[Piichai]

Try explaining that to all the Farangs and Thais who own bars and other hospitality establishments in the tourist areas all over Thailand, if the curfew goes on for an indefinate period, they will all lose their business's and their investments, instead of business's in Bangkok suffering through the protracted protests.

I'm 100% sure if it was your business that was closed down, through the protests, you wouldn't be so thrilled about the PDRC then, the idea was a noble one, but NOBODY expected the Regime to have remained in place for so long, many business's in Bangkok suffered as a result of these protests

Now many business's all over Thailand will be losing a LOT more due to the actions of the Coup, I can't quite see all these proprietors being "thrilled" about the coup, can you?

I think you will find many, if not most foreigners with tourism related businesses, support the coup. Many were already suffering due to the chaos that existed, and with no end in sight. The coup will likely increase the suffering, but at the same time provides hope that the suffering will end soon. A good trade off.

Sure, small businesses with no financial cushion may die, but I think the rest believe they will be better off in the long run.

I must agree.

One of my interests a 'hospitality establishment' and not only do I expect it to continue to prosper through the coup, we are looking to expand the business. With a little luck, the doom and gloomers will knock property prices down.

Located near one of Suthep's stages we may have lost some tourist business, but for the first time we had a steady stream of Thais coming in. The Thais might not have spent as much, but there was more of them. Hopefully they enjoyed their experience and will return.

Well run, well managed businesses will be okay. Businesses that were just getting by before, might not.

If Fat Haggis laments the loss of businesses due to the coup, he should lay the blame squarely at the feet of Thaksin; had Thaksin not forbid PTP & UDD to compromise, they might have negotiated in good faith, and today Thailand would be a very different place indeed.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Piichai

[Piichai]

How do you propose to get the Thai's from the North, and North East and other "red" regions, on side, when people here constantly make derogatory references to their educational and social status and use words like "scum", "terrorist supporters", "buffaloes" etc? it's not just the Thai's within these regions that need educating, it's also the bigoted people who make such crass and ignorant comments.

The hatred and hate filled speech's has to stop from BOTH sides, and a unification process is every bit needed as a reformation process, people need to stop judging others based on their locations, or the the locations of their partners and families, there's no room in society for bigots either,and that's on BOTH sides of the political divide.

If you see it, call it out and I will stand with you.

But be fair and report both sides. I can't recall anti-government posters saying northerners were too dumb to vote, but lots of Red supporters trying to imply so. Truly shameful behavior that should be dealt with.

[Piichai]

Well father in law and the guy who rents wifeys paddy have been waiting for their rice payments since October. Hopefully the Junta will be good for their word and pay the poor farmers within 20 days.

Absolutely, they deserve to be paid. In fact, didn't Yingluck try to pay them but Suthep threatened every bank with mass demonstrations and funds withdrawals to prevent the farmers from getting paid?

No.

[monkeycountry]

The same trick as was pulled in Egypt. Block the government from fulfilling its pledges so as to create resentment and unrest, then stage a coup - and all of a sudden the funds that the overthrown government was struggling to release become magically available.

You would need to be a virtual political simpleton to fall for it.

Each time someone like you claims the above, someone like me asks you, if the money was available all along, and the protests did not start before november 2013. Then why did Yingluck stop paying the farmers from september 2013?

And each time this question is asked, noone replies :-)

[Piichai]

Sweeping reforms before an election are all well and good if they could only find neutral people qualified to do this.

This is the crux of the challenge here, is the army neutral and can they find neutral people to make rational decisions for the benefit of the whole country.

I shouldn't think neutral people are required; all that's needed is interested parties willing to negotiate.

[Fat Haggis]

Hold up guys, try reading the part about IF THE CURFEW continues indefinitely, I've been speaking to my mates this morning about the business side of things, they welcome the removal of the Yingluck Government and said that in the long run, it "should" be better for business, but until they know what these "reforms" entail, they can only hope it's going to be positive, for all they know, one area of reforms could be " the farang business's" along with the clamp down on Immigration etc.

short term they're indeed struggling, and like I said, they're hoping that the curfew is rescinded soon, but nobody knows if that's liklely, in all honesty I doubt it's going to happen any time soon, especially when there's protests against the coup starting to manifest.

I'm delighted that things are going well for you Piichai, and for the other shrewd businessmen and women out there, sadly there's some who will not be so lucky, and they will suffer.

I personally wouldn't wish any business to falter due to the current ongoing situation.

[monkeycountry]

Well father in law and the guy who rents wifeys paddy have been waiting for their rice payments since October. Hopefully the Junta will be good for their word and pay the poor farmers within 20 days.

Absolutely, they deserve to be paid. In fact, didn't Yingluck try to pay them but Suthep threatened every bank with mass demonstrations and funds withdrawals to prevent the farmers from getting paid?

Of course, why should the banks suddenly pay for Yingluck's moronic policies? As a shareholder in several of the banks I fully support the demonstrations that prevented Yingluck from pressuring the bank directors into doing something that would not be in the banks (and my) best interest.

[ginjag]

Ginjag,

You do realise that protestors were the both sides of the camp, and they were BOTH to blame, you're like a stuck record with this anti government , if it was so bad, why did you chose to stay?

I'm sorry that your business was killed off too, and that goes for anyone else who's business has been effected by the current political situation, may I be so bold as to ask what your business was?

I had no opinion of the Government as they never did anything to me, or caused me any hardship or difficulties, wasn't in Thailand long enough to be able to judge the apparent ineptness of the Democrat run one, or the Robbing PTP one, but you bang on and on and on about the failures of the PTP one, as if they are the only ones to have ever done wrong.

The amnesty Bill is a red herring, and given that you have lived in Thailand for a long long time, should be very aware of the "issues" going on behind closed doors that is at the root of the current situation, but you can't and will not because you're so blinkered that you're focusing on the woods, and not seeing the trees, I might be relatively new to Thailand, but I know that there's things going on that can't be discussed, about an event that's imminent, I don't care about the PTP, I don't care about the UDD, I don't care about the PDRC, what I do care about is how that event is going to effect all the Thais.

Now, in saying all that, it's evident that the PTP were very poor Government, but voting them out after making claims that the "majority" wanted a change WOULD have been the logical step to take, but there is no logic in Thailand, there never was a "majority" it was political spin, if that "majority" wanted the PTP/UDD out, they would have and should have had the opportunity to VOTE them out, but you are the one who will cry but but but Thaksin will buy the votes... utter and complete , the truth is the PDRC and anti Government groups NEVER ever had the majority, what you're really saying is that yes, the "majority" is there in spirit, but they will be bought for 500 baht, and Thaksin wins, well you have a very very very low opinion of the this "majority" if they can easily be swayed to vote for 500 baht, the vote buying is an excuse, a very poor excuse, because the bottom line is that you either have the majority who want reforms and the PTP out,and they will not be swayed by 500 baht regardless, or there never was a majority as it was never given the opportunity to cast their votes, and rid the Regime that way.

Not everyone is as blinkered as you appear to believe they are.

Now enough about that crap, who are you rooting for in the Champions League Final tonight?

Hey mate lets cut the dung for a few minutes.

Both sides of the coin was not the problem, that was the aftermath--so I am not posting about who was involved--like school kids out to play.

You had no opinion of the government as they never did anything wrong to you---selfish, we are not talking about US Thai politics is the menu of the day.

I am not posting to say no one ever did wrong I post on the present state of affairs--PTP

PTP were not just a poor government-they were diabolical---if not we would not encounter problems.

You do not get it do you, you do not give PTP with all their money mismanagement another chance before you clean up the abnormalities.

All the other BS about paying for votes I can not prove anything either way and I am not interested in that waffle.

If you don't care about UDD/PTP why have you on record defended them vigorously. Why when we all found out about the non existant accounts and rice didn't you denounce it.??? you have near always been in denial. I have slammed the mismanaged government--because they did very wrong and THEY WERE NOT MISTAKES. That is why you do not go back to the ballot box.

The amnesty speaks for it'self ---It was just for Thaksin being cleared..

Football is not on because as you put it the military are so bad they cut out the programs.

[JRSoul]

with which countries, thailand has been at war the last 100-200 years, that they need a big army that can overthrow again and again an elected governement, corrupt or not ?

maybe time to put the boys back on the farms where they belong

Yes, heaven help us that they may be educated, given skills to obtain a decent occupation, and experience life outside the village. You never know who they might vote for.

And forget about their good work during the floods and other natural disasters, just PR, or as one red moron once said "Doing what they are paid to do."

[Baerboxer]

Honestly you guys actually supporting a military coup make me sick!

You wouldn't cop it your own country but you support in Thailand.

The thai majority do not want this they wanted yingluck and the PTP and said so at the ballot box in a landslide only to once again have it ripped away by another coup.

Truly bloody sickening!

Crap - as usual. Why start with the word 'honestly' and then trot out the old lie that Yinngy and PTP were elected by a majority.

Over and over again the same old lie - truly bloody sickening and truly still a lie.

Simply trolling now, but with the right noun for your avatar.

[chilizzz]

Will the Thai people get to choose the reforms in a referendum?

Or will they be forced on the whether they like them or not?

[Baerboxer]

The same trick as was pulled in Egypt. Block the government from fulfilling its pledges so as to create resentment and unrest, then stage a coup - and all of a sudden the funds that the overthrown government was struggling to release become magically available.

You would need to be a virtual political simpleton to fall for it.

Each time someone like you claims the above, someone like me asks you, if the money was available all along, and the protests did not start before november 2013. Then why did Yingluck stop paying the farmers from september 2013?

And each time this question is asked, noone replies :-)

As a rough guess, because they'd pinched all the cash by then and needed to get the 2.2 trillion loan to cover all the discrepancies. Without that, and having to keep everything top secret they were buggered.

[heybruce]

How many months has it been since "reforms" were first muted? Why doesn't anyone have even a general idea of what they will be?

I know people have wishlists for what the reforms should accomplish, mostly along the lines of "no bad people can every again be involved in politics". How about specifics, such as transparency in government spending, competitive contract awards, all civil servants, military and police officers with budgetary powers must declare all sources of income and assets, libel laws rewritten so the press can not be charged with a crime for reporting verifiable facts, and things like that?

Regarding elections, of course vote buying and intimidation will be illegal, as they always were. Of course enforcement of laws needs to be better, but freeing up the press to actually report on illegal acts without fear of being charged with libel will help in that area. I'm not sure what other election reforms are required.

[citizen33]

The bit that I find very surprising is the content of the second paragraph of the OP. I'll leave it to a constitutional lawyer to explain the legal implications - although retaining a single chapter of the constitution that itself seems to have been broken will take a bit of explaining, but the political implications are potentially massive. I'd guess that, apart from the struggle we know about, there is another taking place in the background.

[Fat Haggis]

I have gone on record and defended them? utter nonsense, I've openly stated that I didn't like the way in which they were removed, that's not defending them, you're once again making assumptions that I'm a staunch PTP/UDD follower, many a time I've gone on "record" as you state and said I thought that they were idiots.

I don't know enough personally about the rice scheme, but I do believe I've gone on record again to state that it was a very poor scheme.

I don't know how many times I've gone on record to refute the claims of being a red fan, when I've said dozens of times that IF I WAS A THAI, I'd vote abhisit, and that I'm more of a democrat supporter, but the reading comprehensions seem adrift with many people, you included. I've gone on record to state that Juttaporn and his ilk were raving nutters, and throw Suthep into that category too.

So lets cut to the dung indeed shall we? you're right, this isn't about US, and it is about Thai Politics, and seeing as neither of us are Thai, then it has NOTHING to do with us, it may have to you if you have a vote, but if you don't then you're being over excited about something that has no bearing on what you, nor I think, so maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be sticking our noses in where it concerns us? Me, I'm a guest in the country,as I'm not a PR, irrespective of who is in power, I abide by their laws and rules, and respect their monarchy, it's NOT my place to criticise, there's no point as I nor you have the power to change it, that sir is up to the Thai people themselves to change.

I was and still am an avid believer that it should have been left to the Thais to vote, they never got the chance, they never got the chance to prove to they were indeed the "majority".

I've also said many a time that I agree on reformation, I have said many a time too that hold a referendum on these reforms, but don't block the ballot, I know you don't trust the ballot box, but you have to take a leap of faith, and let the Thai people speak through the ballot box, you never know, the results might have gone against the PTP, and a democratic process would have been seen globally as a positive step.

It would be incredibly naive to think that these reforms are not going to be phrased and put so that the Democrats will get another shot at the title, and I'm not against that, and I still think Abhisit would be the man to lead, as he's a lot more open minded and less radical, than to have someone like Prawit take over.

All one needs to do Ginjag is read up on the past coups and see all these things that have been implemented and put in place, I also still believe that the General had no choice but to step in, but if he's really for the people then that's a good thing, but only time will tell, its to early to say, but all the critics are pointing out that what the General is implementing are more or less in line as to what the PDRC demanded, so of course they're going to point their fingers and say that the General and Suthep have had this planned all along.

I'm also not that naive that there's a bigger picture involved too that cannot be spoken about and again there's enough literature out there to form opinions as to what's been going on.

As you have pointed out to others on many's an occasion that just because you're critical of the Government, it didn't make you a yellow sympathiser, well please respect that in the same token, not everyone who disagreed with Sutheps protests or thought that the manner in which Yingluck was removed is a red sympathiser.

and back the footie, can you not live stream and watch it that way? Do what I did once, and skyped my son and got him to put the laptop in front of his telly so I could watch a game that way!!!

[piersbeckett]

election..... isn't that a dirty word to the Royal-Elitist ?..... how could the common Thai-people know what is good for them AND the county!

I think it was Praht Baht Som Debt Prat Jou Jula Jom Glau Jou Yu Hore V (the King) that gave the common Thai people the right to own land i.e. ended serfdom. Hence, I believe the huge respect generally in Thailand for the Royal family. I'm not sure, mind, who took that right away from them if they ever had it in the first place!

The 'very rich one' saw that there was more people (voters) in 'the country' than in 'the capital' so campaigned there giving 'incentives' (as they all do) and making promises (as they all do) telling 'the common thai people' that the suited and booted politicians in 'the capital' were interested in business only and not in the plight of the country people.

They, 'the common Thai people', many of them illiterate, and LACKING IN EDUCATION gave him a chance resultant in their lot being improved ( e.g. the availability of land (without chanote) to a few very poor people (IRA/Sien Fein did a similar thing in Northern Ireland) and the supply of cheap personal loans to most. They knew what was good for them and 'the very rich one' delivered same.

The question of 'did they (the common Thai people) know what was good for the country'? is a trickier one. I believe that corruption is part of the Thai culture & I believe also that 'the common Thai people' also believe that and thought that, 'corruption is corruption is corruption'. Personally, I believe that there are degrees of corruption, so much so that a little corruption can affect a country in a lesser way than a lot of corruption.

A family (with cronies) in charge of a country could by repeatedly being voted in, in the manner and theoretically democratically as described above, milk that country eventually dry by diverting all it's wealth to their own coffers particularly if they could alter the law/s to suit their activities i.e. indulge in nepotism and cronyism and get rid of TRANSPARENCY and CHECKS & BALANCES. Democracy is not dissimilar to the question of free speech - should free speech be so free that inciting riot or hatred is allowed!?

The spirit behind the idea of democracy is surely 'fairness' so to make it work fairly, a vote should be the result of, at least the voter having the opportunity to make, an 'informed' choice not brought about by pressure or bribery. These are some of the fundamental issues IMHO that the planned 'reforms' should be dealing with.

Edited May 24, 2014 by piersbeckett