Junta wants sweeping reforms before election

[Piichai]

I personally wouldn't wish any business to falter due to the current ongoing situation.

Business is an ecology. The more capable consume the less capable. The inability (or unwillingness) to react to change often culls. The passing of one business is an opportunity for another to prosper.

I suppose if anything saddens me about the current situation it is that it could have been avoided had PTP & UDD negotiated in good faith.

On a positive note, reforms and elections are sure to come much quicker.

[Dr Bruce]

Honestly you guys actually supporting a military coup make me sick!

You wouldn't cop it your own country but you support in Thailand.

The thai majority do not want this they wanted yingluck and the PTP and said so at the ballot box in a landslide only to once again have it ripped away by another coup.

Truly bloody sickening!

A 47% or so majority voted for PTP. A recent Dusit poll said an over 75% majority support martial law.

The message seems clear to me!

A poll that was released by an Ammart organization under blanket news censorship.

NSS

[Piichai]

The spirit behind the idea of democracy is surely 'fairness' so to make it work fairly, a vote should be the result of, at least the voter having the opportunity to make, an 'informed' choice not brought about by pressure or bribery. These are some of the fundamental issues IMHO that the planned 'reforms' should be dealing with.

And before elections are held, canvassers should be allowed to operate without fear of harm or intimidation. How else can voters make an informed choice?

While elections are one thing, reforms should also require transparency, an end to MP immunity, and a permanent ban for those convicted of abusing the public's trust.

[Piichai]

Honestly you guys actually supporting a military coup make me sick!

You wouldn't cop it your own country but you support in Thailand.

The thai majority do not want this they wanted yingluck and the PTP and said so at the ballot box in a landslide only to once again have it ripped away by another coup.

Truly bloody sickening!

A 47% or so majority voted for PTP. A recent Dusit poll said an over 75% majority support martial law.

The message seems clear to me!

A poll that was released by an Ammart organization under blanket news censorship.

NSS

Are you saying there has never been a Dusit poll that seemed to favor PTP?

[heybruce]

Honestly you guys actually supporting a military coup make me sick!

You wouldn't cop it your own country but you support in Thailand.

The thai majority do not want this they wanted yingluck and the PTP and said so at the ballot box in a landslide only to once again have it ripped away by another coup.

Truly bloody sickening!

A 47% or so majority voted for PTP. A recent Dusit poll said an over 75% majority support martial law.

The message seems clear to me!

A poll that was released by an Ammart organization under blanket news censorship.

NSS

Are you saying there has never been a Dusit poll that seemed to favor PTP?

I say that polls that are not conducted by reputable, qualified, non-partisan organizations should be taken with a large grain of salt, or completely ignored. I can't recall a poll referenced in the TV forum that wasn't best ignored.

[Jonmarleesco]

'Countries around the world yesterday ... demanded that the military restore a civilian government immediately.'

Perhaps they would care to suggest one, since it was the late government that was the fundamental cause of months of protests.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Jonmarleesco

[Mudcrab]

From the OP:

The military believes underground movements would soon surface to oppose the coup.

The military dictators and the ammart are deeper into it than they had ever been for a hundred years yet they're still digging.

Good on US Ambassador Kristie Kenney and German Ambassador Rolf Schulze among others for not attending the meeting because, as they said, they want nothing to do with the Thai military as dictators ruling over Thailand. That's an excellent posture by Prez Obama and Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Waiting also for the sanctions coming that were referenced in the OP, by the United States and the European Union.

I see the State Department has now issued a travel warning against travel to Thailand, which throws the marker down to begin the international processes to isolate the military dictatorship. Military mutiny coup d'état is already passe' in civilized society but this one is beyond the pale.

has only just begun to begin for the militarists, the military dictators, the ammart. There's a severe shitstorm headed their way.

Security Message for U.S. Citizens: Security Situation in Thailand

Thailand Travel Alert

Last Updated: May 23, 2014

The U.S. Department of State recommends that U.S. citizens reconsider any non-essential travel to Thailand, particularly Bangkok, due to ongoing political and social unrest and restrictions on internal movements, including an indefinite nighttime curfew throughout Thailand. The Department of State has advised official U.S. government travelers to defer all non-essential travel to Thailand until further notice. This Travel Alert supersedes the Travel Alert issued on May 16, 2014.

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service.html

Kenney told the media that she was busy with another engagement

Seems she has learnt a lot from Yingluck

[Piichai]

A 47% or so majority voted for PTP. A recent Dusit poll said an over 75% majority support martial law.

The message seems clear to me!

A poll that was released by an Ammart organization under blanket news censorship.

NSS

Are you saying there has never been a Dusit poll that seemed to favor PTP?

I say that polls that are not conducted by reputable, qualified, non-partisan organizations should be taken with a large grain of salt, or completely ignored. I can't recall a poll referenced in the TV forum that wasn't best ignored.

If you have more information, I would love to see it.

Just looked at a number of Dusit polls, and the majority looked pro-government to me.

[lomatopo]

Why doesn't anyone have even a general idea of what they will be?

Well the primary reform can't be discussed, just like the real reason for this coup can't be discussed.

Other one's which have been floated:

"decentralization", which means elected provincial governors (other than Bangkok which already does that).

re-write the constitution, again, and insure that any amendments require a referendum

improve education, require a certain educational competence in order to vote

insure fair elections, no vote buying.

a parliamentary make-up of at least 75% appointed representatives

making sure no PTP/UDD people can participate, hence the use of the word 'sweeping'

[marcusd]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/taking-refuge-in-5star-hampshire-hotel-the-thai-crown-prince-and-his-retinue-of-30-9423659.html

Interesting. Why holiday now?

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[heybruce]

Are you saying there has never been a Dusit poll that seemed to favor PTP?

I say that polls that are not conducted by reputable, qualified, non-partisan organizations should be taken with a large grain of salt, or completely ignored. I can't recall a poll referenced in the TV forum that wasn't best ignored.

If you have more information, I would love to see it.

Just looked at a number of Dusit polls, and the majority looked pro-government to me.

Information? Do you want me to explain how it is much easier to draw your conclusions then conduct a poll guaranteed to support these conclusions? I won't go into detail, I'll just point out the three main mechanisms--bias the population being polled, bias the questions, and bias the analysis.

Coming up with a meaningful number of randomly selected poll participants that truly reflect the larger population, designing questions that do not bias the probable answers, and analyzing the results in an analytical, unbiased manner is hard and requires expertise. That's why I only trust polls that are from competent, qualified, unbiased polling organizations. I ignore all others. I don't know how the Dusit polls are conducted, until I am convinced they are qualified and unbiased I ignore them.

[heybruce]

Why doesn't anyone have even a general idea of what they will be?

Well the primary reform can't be discussed, just like the real reason for this coup can't be discussed.

Other one's which have been floated:

"decentralization", which means elected provincial governors (other than Bangkok which already does that).

re-write the constitution, again, and insure that any amendments require a referendum

improve education, require a certain educational competence in order to vote

insure fair elections, no vote buying.

a parliamentary make-up of at least 75% appointed representatives

making sure no PTP/UDD people can participate, hence the use of the word 'sweeping'

"re-write the constitution, again, and insure that any amendments require a referendum"

The current constitution was written at the direction of the military junta following the 2006 coup, then "approved" in a referendum in which the voters could only choose between the draft constitution and military rule. Do you envision similar referendums?

"improve education, require a certain educational competence in order to vote"

One of my friends, currently finishing her Masters in Chemistry and considering a scholarship offer to study for a PhD in Australia, was raised by a mother with a fifth grade education. This woman worked hard to put all three of her children through university. I assume this is the sort of person you consider to be unqualified to participate in a democracy. What level of education do you think should be required?

"insure fair elections, no vote buying."

Great idea, but vote buying has always been illegal, and no one has shown that it affected the outcome of a national election. By all means keep it illegal, but perhaps explain how the law will be enforced in the future.

"a parliamentary make-up of at least 75% appointed representatives"

I see, an unelected parliament. Your true colors are showing. Will you keep the half appointed Senate as well, or make the majority of it unelected as well? Don't you think more of an effort should be made to show at least an appearance of democracy?

By the way, in the post that you quoted, you omitted a lot, notably:

"How about specifics, such as transparency in government spending, competitive contract awards, all civil servants, military and police officers with budgetary powers must declare all sources of income and assets, libel laws rewritten so the press can not be charged with a crime for reporting verifiable facts, and things like that?"

How do you feel about those kinds of reforms?

[monkeycountry]

Why doesn't anyone have even a general idea of what they will be?

Well the primary reform can't be discussed, just like the real reason for this coup can't be discussed.

Other one's which have been floated:

"decentralization", which means elected provincial governors (other than Bangkok which already does that).

re-write the constitution, again, and insure that any amendments require a referendum

improve education, require a certain educational competence in order to vote

insure fair elections, no vote buying.

a parliamentary make-up of at least 75% appointed representatives

making sure no PTP/UDD people can participate, hence the use of the word 'sweeping'

Who is stopping you?

Of course, if one does not know something, it is easier to simply say "it can't be discussed" :-D

[gunnyd]

It's horrible of me to say this but, for many the only solution that would satisfy them would be: 1. Round up all current politicians, the rich, and the powerful. 2. Seize all of their assets. 3. Take them to a field and do something nasty or "re-educate" them. 4. Give out moneys and assets equally across all peoples. 5. Have a Chairman Mao, Stalin, Marcos, or Ho Chi Minh type leader put into place. Done!

As long as a 1 vote 1 person pure democracy or republican (USA/Republic of the Philippines) style elections happen nothing will change. To quote The Who "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

It is sad. I loved stay for long periods in LOS when I make the pilgrimage to my wife's home country of The Philippines, but the last 5 times there it has been degenerated more and more. I love Thailand. I have respect for the Royal family but not the "democrats" as they call themselves. Hence the yellow shirt I am wearing in my avatar. I am not political and have no dog in this fight. As I see it, It's been wash, rinse, repeat......and when the same groups are elected under whatever name over and over they will have unrest. It's sad

[lomatopo]

Who is stopping you?

Of course, if one does not know something, it is easier to simply say "it can't be discussed" :-D

Well it's against the forum rules for one thing.

By the way, in the post that you quoted, you omitted a lot, notably:

My list was not made up "my" reforms, but rather those that I can remember being espoused by various learned Thais over the past few months.

I didn't omit any on purpose.

Edited May 24, 2014 by lomatopo

[Publicus]

Whatever is needed to restore the country back to norm will never be accepted by the 1% of TVF because never a wrong done and everything is politically motivated they say.

This heading --topic-- is exactly what was said all along by our good thinking 99% of TVF. Go for it guys.

Maybe now you guys are beginning to realize the storm is brewing rather than having past and that the Thailand military have made matters infinitely worse, thus exceeding their massive cock up of a military mutiny coup d'état in 2006.

The 2006 coup was the single most divisive event in the history of Thailand, but that astounding blunder is in the process of being exceeded by this bunch in this time under present circumstances.

The night time curfew is on indefinitely - but you knew that, right? You knew what was coming, right? Tell me you knew. Please tell me you knew.

Douches.

This post is ridiculous.

Quote- "you guys" you mean the 99% of TVF posters ??

You think the military have made it quote "infinitely worse"

Biggest cock up years ago was the reds occupying BKK. but you do not see it that way up to you.

You have no idea the curfew is indefinitely-- why speak like that. ?? Sorry your PTP has been decimated--it must hurt you so much.

I look forward to drastic reforms as always and super clean elections for all citizens. Reforms needed---elections needed.

You posted erroneously that,

You have no idea the curfew is indefinitely-- why speak like that. ??

Because in part you need to read the statement by the U.S. government that I have highlighted in blue and which you clearly have missed or are denying is accurate and true. The headliner in red is the color of the notice as it appears on the websites of the State Department in Washington and at the Embassy in Bangkok, respectively. The U.S. government is emphasizing the word "security" in Thailand to all US Citizens.

Security Message for U.S. Citizens: Security Situation in Thailand

Thailand Travel Alert

Last Updated: May 23, 2014

The U.S. Department of State recommends that U.S. citizens reconsider any non-essential travel to Thailand, particularly Bangkok, due to ongoing political and social unrest and restrictions on internal movements, including an indefinite nighttime curfew throughout Thailand. The Department of State has advised official U.S. government travelers to defer all non-essential travel to Thailand until further notice.

So do try to keep up.

It clearly seems the majority of TVF fahlang posters over the past six months are haters of an equal or equitable democracy, but to claim 99% of fahlang here hate democracy is a gross overstatement that also indicates the fantasy world you live in. The dubious Dusit survey poll that reported 78% of Thais support the coup is also a gross misrepresentation, as Dusit polls of the past have been well analyzed here for their obvious skewered intents, methodology, outcomes, substandard nature.

You further misrepresent me when you state to me "your PTP." Your faulty belief that I support PTP per se indicates you have not been reading my posts or you don't understand or comprehend my posts over the past few years and the past six months in particular. That's your failure, not mine.

The history of military intervention and interposition is to always make things worse. It's already obvious this coup is the worst error of them all.

[icare999]

Clever but obvious move to pay the farmers first. The coup ousted government were blocked at every turn when trying to pay them.

The military have no such restriction.

Suthep,sadly, has won hands down as the military are now implementing everything no sane person wanted to see. Unelected government and officials. Where is Suthep by the way?

I think these guys are in it for a long ride, don't think you will see the illiterate great unwashed having an opportunity to express their democratic rights for some time to come.

Thailand is in a very sorry state.

its in afar better state than a few days ago when Taksins regime were still meant to be government

Rice scheme scam, 1 tablet scam, car scam (for rich) and rest and then try to get amnesty for person whose caused more problems for Thialnd than any

Well done Army well done Suphet

Im very optimistic that this time unlike 2006 army have learnt a lot and this time shins will hopefully be defeated for ever

So aloo you Taksin and red lovers to bad your master will loose in end and this time no mistakes. Compared with 2006 when I was here and previous coups when i was also here this one seems dry well planned organised and wonderfully done. Brilliant to get red readers arrested.

So if Red shirt thugs want to risk their lives for a few thousand baht so be it but I think they will mostly just run like cowards they are.

Taksin will try again to pay for violence but this time its not going to be allowed to get like 2010.

So go cry in your beer you Taksin and red shirt lovers and like Binjarin go enjoy your privileged life surrounded by your bar girls. Most of you are just totally hypocritical and totally naive

IT seems pouch and go for a while and it looked possible Taksin had maybe bought army. If he had then say goodbye to any form of democracy and hello to Taksin one party mugabwie look alike state at best

Well do men Army and Suphet

[Publicus]

You think this is over with?!?

Look out your window tonight while you're at home due to the indefinite curfew and you'll see a bad moon rising.

I see the bad moon arisin'

I see trouble on the way

I see earthquakes and lightnin'

I see bad times today

http://www.songlyrics.com/creedence-clearwater-revival/bad-moon-rising-lyrics/

Smell the coffee.

Wife and I go to bed at 9pm and are up about 5am. Like the vast majority of rural folks (who make up the vast majority of the population), the curfew has no effect at all on us. Soooooo.....

You do have a moon where you live?

And you do live in Thailand?

The Land of Coups.

[Wat Thefunk]

including the police in any "reform" is like asking the wolf to guard the sheep. What a joke!

[ginjag]

This post is ridiculous.

Quote- "you guys" you mean the 99% of TVF posters ??

You think the military have made it quote "infinitely worse"

Biggest cock up years ago was the reds occupying BKK. but you do not see it that way up to you.

You have no idea the curfew is indefinitely-- why speak like that. ?? Sorry your PTP has been decimated--it must hurt you so much.

I look forward to drastic reforms as always and super clean elections for all citizens. Reforms needed---elections needed.

You posted erroneously that,

You have no idea the curfew is indefinitely-- why speak like that. ??

Because in part you need to read the statement by the U.S. government that I have highlighted in blue and which you clearly have missed or are denying is accurate and true. The headliner in red is the color of the notice as it appears on the websites of the State Department in Washington and at the Embassy in Bangkok, respectively. The U.S. government is emphasizing the word "security" in Thailand to all US Citizens.

Security Message for U.S. Citizens: Security Situation in Thailand

Thailand Travel Alert

Last Updated: May 23, 2014

The U.S. Department of State recommends that U.S. citizens reconsider any non-essential travel to Thailand, particularly Bangkok, due to ongoing political and social unrest and restrictions on internal movements, including an indefinite nighttime curfew throughout Thailand. The Department of State has advised official U.S. government travelers to defer all non-essential travel to Thailand until further notice.

So do try to keep up.

It clearly seems the majority of TVF fahlang posters over the past six months are haters of an equal or equitable democracy, but to claim 99% of fahlang here hate democracy is a gross overstatement that also indicates the fantasy world you live in. The dubious Dusit survey poll that reported 78% of Thais support the coup is also a gross misrepresentation, as Dusit polls of the past have been well analyzed here for their obvious skewered intents, methodology, outcomes, substandard nature.

You further misrepresent me when you state to me "your PTP." Your faulty belief that I support PTP per se indicates you have not been reading my posts or you don't understand or comprehend my posts over the past few years and the past six months in particular. That's your failure, not mine.

The history of military intervention and interposition is to always make things worse. It's already obvious this coup is the worst error of them all.

Oh Please spare me the saga again, most of it is waffle.

NO ONE knows how long the curfew will be for, as for the USA comment--no comment- Wait and see.

1% of posters do not know what true democracy is, they supported a democratically elected government --THEN when it was clear to all it was not governing in this way this clan on TVF denied it---Ha, a joke.

99% of TVF posters want democracy that's why they supported the protests. The Shins out was the first step to democracy, elections do not necessary give democracy----Zimbabwe ?????

I never misread your posts--you were near always defending the Yingluck admin.

THIS COUP has stabilized the situ, naturally curfews and the like initially have to be in place to stop mainly the thug element from reds who promised retaliation and threats against the army chief.

If you think that the coup is an awful error, you think what might have happened had the battles commenced in BKK--another 90 dead, you think would have been better------YOU KEEP UP.

The polls were wrong, 99% of TVF posters were wrong, ????

Tell me what you would have done ??? forget the USA.

[ginjag]

You think this is over with?!?

Look out your window tonight while you're at home due to the indefinite curfew and you'll see a bad moon rising.

I see the bad moon arisin'

I see trouble on the way

I see earthquakes and lightnin'

I see bad times today

http://www.songlyrics.com/creedence-clearwater-revival/bad-moon-rising-lyrics/

Smell the coffee.

Wife and I go to bed at 9pm and are up about 5am. Like the vast majority of rural folks (who make up the vast majority of the population), the curfew has no effect at all on us. Soooooo.....

You do have a moon where you live?

And you do live in Thailand?

The Land of Coups.

Publicus, This is rural Thailand, these times this poster posted is and has always been normal bed and rise hours -so a curfew will not interfere with the little farmer or cow/buffalo man

Get out into rural areas--live there then you can believe, THIS is normal. maybe you are Moon struck.

[Piichai]

Are you saying there has never been a Dusit poll that seemed to favor PTP?

I say that polls that are not conducted by reputable, qualified, non-partisan organizations should be taken with a large grain of salt, or completely ignored. I can't recall a poll referenced in the TV forum that wasn't best ignored.

If you have more information, I would love to see it.

Just looked at a number of Dusit polls, and the majority looked pro-government to me.

Information? Do you want me to explain how it is much easier to draw your conclusions then conduct a poll guaranteed to support these conclusions? I won't go into detail, I'll just point out the three main mechanisms--bias the population being polled, bias the questions, and bias the analysis.

Coming up with a meaningful number of randomly selected poll participants that truly reflect the larger population, designing questions that do not bias the probable answers, and analyzing the results in an analytical, unbiased manner is hard and requires expertise. That's why I only trust polls that are from competent, qualified, unbiased polling organizations. I ignore all others. I don't know how the Dusit polls are conducted, until I am convinced they are qualified and unbiased I ignore them.

I was thinking more like references for the company being owned by the Ammart. Found that interesting having just read a number of their polls, which IMO didn't seem biased. In fact, I was thinking they are pro-government.

[robblok]

I personally wouldn't wish any business to falter due to the current ongoing situation.

Business is an ecology. The more capable consume the less capable. The inability (or unwillingness) to react to change often culls. The passing of one business is an opportunity for another to prosper.

I suppose if anything saddens me about the current situation it is that it could have been avoided had PTP & UDD negotiated in good faith.

On a positive note, reforms and elections are sure to come much quicker.

Nobody wants businesses to falter, but I think this is a quicker solution as endless protests and counter protests.

I do hope the reforms are fair and really do curb corruption and power misuse of whoever is in power, that includes the democrats.

I have said it time and again, remove the money from politics (as much as possible) and Taksin is no longer a problem and other crooks are also not a problem as its not profitable to be politician. For that to happen we need strong anti corruption and strong anti nepotism laws that are enforced strict and even. Now politicians almost never seem to pay for their crimes.

The moment they can't make enough money and get punished when caught they won't do it anymore. You get cleaner politicians that way and a lot less of a power struggle as nobody will pay people to vote or protest.

[wilsonf]

I suppose like most westerners living in Thailand, I have been reading many of the postings on many of the threads out of natural concern about the situation. The vast majority of posts are from Westerners, like myself (westerner not a poster), and I believe who we regard ourselves as level headed and reasonable sensible thinkers. Given that I notice that that from these posts there is support for both sides of the argument Red shirt or Yellow shirt. If we as Westerners who consider our views, common sense, and approach to dealing with complex situations to be superior to that of the Thai mentality, and we cannot agree on the solution to the current unrest - how on earth do you think the Thai people can.

[Publicus]

You think this is over with?!?

Look out your window tonight while you're at home due to the indefinite curfew and you'll see a bad moon rising.

I see the bad moon arisin'

I see trouble on the way

I see earthquakes and lightnin'

I see bad times today

http://www.songlyrics.com/creedence-clearwater-revival/bad-moon-rising-lyrics/

Smell the coffee.

Wife and I go to bed at 9pm and are up about 5am. Like the vast majority of rural folks (who make up the vast majority of the population), the curfew has no effect at all on us. Soooooo.....

You do have a moon where you live?

And you do live in Thailand?

The Land of Coups.

Publicus, This is rural Thailand, these times this poster posted is and has always been normal bed and rise hours -so a curfew will not interfere with the little farmer or cow/buffalo man

Get out into rural areas--live there then you can believe, THIS is normal. maybe you are Moon struck.

How do you know where I've lived over x + y number of years in Thailand, or where I haven't lived. You don't know. So stop presuming you may know, which means to stop presuming to lecture on matters of which you haven't any knowledge.

You actually think or believe I (or other readers too) do not know or recognize the poster is referring to rural Thailand??? You think or believe I (or other readers too) don't know the poster is referring to normal routine in their household, their lives, their village?

And don't presume to direct me on what you yourself erroneously presume I need to do or not to do. You don't know shit about me. Or do you? either way your presumptuous arrogance invites self inflicted difficulties.

You think and believe I have a world view that is limited by a lack of exposure to the world, an exposure you in your presumed worldliness have that I don't have? Your presumptuous lectures reveal that you suffer from serious cultural and intellectual deficiencies that exist independently of any particular political attitude you may have.

So buzz out pal and put your presumptuous lectures where the sun don't shine. You just got mooned.

[Wat Thefunk]

I suppose like most westerners living in Thailand, I have been reading many of the postings on many of the threads out of natural concern about the situation. The vast majority of posts are from Westerners, like myself (westerner not a poster), and I believe who we regard ourselves as level headed and reasonable sensible thinkers. Given that I notice that that from these posts there is support for both sides of the argument Red shirt or Yellow shirt. If we as Westerners who consider our views, common sense, and approach to dealing with complex situations to be superior to that of the Thai mentality, and we cannot agree on the solution to the current unrest - how on earth do you think the Thai people can.

Excellent point! They can not, that is why the protests went on so long. There will be no reform, because the people with the power to actually affect and enforce reform are the same people needing the most reform. The average Thais living outside of BKK and the major tourist spots are the majority, yet they have the least amount of power(money). All the corruption and abuse, though it may be spread far and wide, originates in BKK and is spread from there. Follow the money, very difficult in a government with so little transparency, and you will find the the source of the corruption and abuse. Thailand will remain, at best, a second world country, if it does not decline, for more than the foreseeable future.

The only way to set the Thai ship right would be revolution. That will not happen because it costs so little to entice the poor majority to support people and programs they do not understand. Until a charismatic leader with no personal agenda and the good of the majority of people as the number one concern, rises up and unites the poor and uneducated, Thailand will continue as it has for years and years. Nepotism and "bakshish" are deeply rooted in the Thai culture and society and are here to stay. It is the way ALL Thais do business and they see no problem with it. Like most asian societies, lying, cheating, nepotism and bribery are not immoral or wrong, it is simply being "clever". If that thinking cannot be changed, it does not matter what party or what group of people are in charge, it will go on as it always has. Supported by "farang" money, seduced by the facade of the Thai smile.

[heybruce]

Who is stopping you?

Of course, if one does not know something, it is easier to simply say "it can't be discussed" :-D

Well it's against the forum rules for one thing.

By the way, in the post that you quoted, you omitted a lot, notably:

My list was not made up "my" reforms, but rather those that I can remember being espoused by various learned Thais over the past few months.

I didn't omit any on purpose.

My apologies, I was so appalled by the suggested reforms I overlooked your preface. Apparently there are some "learned Thais" who have no fondness for democracy. Perhaps they are some of the "born to rule" types Banyan discussed in the January 11, 2014 edition of the Economist http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21593419-varying-degrees-justification-election-boycotts-are-vogue-asia-trouble:

"Thailand could also do with a new constitution. The current one no longer works. The political system has broken and no one can see the way to devise a new one. The main opposition group, the Democrat Party, should contemplate a name change: to the “anti-Democrats”, perhaps, or the catchier “Born to Rule!”. It is boycotting next month’s election not because it would be unfair (though it might be), but because it would lose. It has not won a general election for more than two decades. Its supporters in the south are outnumbered by those in the north and north-east of the country, who keep on voting in proxies for Thaksin Shinawatra, an exiled former prime minister. The forces that the Born to Rules represent, including much of Thailand’s traditional elite, find this impossible to accept. They are openly campaigning for what amounts to dictatorship, though they do not call it that. Democracy has not worked for the Democrats."

The anti-Democrats certainly live down to the opening paragraph:

"THOSE living in dictatorships often harbour the delusion that the point of democracy is that you get the government you want. Those living in democracies soon realise that is not the system’s most salient feature: rather, it is that a large number of voters get the government they do not want and are expected to put up with it until the next election. In many young democracies, politicians find this hard to accept. So governments rig elections to make sure they win; and opposition parties reject elections they think they will lose."

The Democrats wouldn't participate in the last election, and, based on your list of proposed reforms, are eager to fix future elections.

[northernjohn]

I suppose like most westerners living in Thailand, I have been reading many of the postings on many of the threads out of natural concern about the situation. The vast majority of posts are from Westerners, like myself (westerner not a poster), and I believe who we regard ourselves as level headed and reasonable sensible thinkers. Given that I notice that that from these posts there is support for both sides of the argument Red shirt or Yellow shirt. If we as Westerners who consider our views, common sense, and approach to dealing with complex situations to be superior to that of the Thai mentality, and we cannot agree on the solution to the current unrest - how on earth do you think the Thai people can.

With the army under the direction of a strong no nonsense leader.

Ask a hard one?

[chilizzz]

Promise of sweeping reforms ...isnt that a populist policy?

[northernjohn]

You think this is over with?!?

Look out your window tonight while you're at home due to the indefinite curfew and you'll see a bad moon rising.

I see the bad moon arisin'

I see trouble on the way

I see earthquakes and lightnin'

I see bad times today

http://www.songlyrics.com/creedence-clearwater-revival/bad-moon-rising-lyrics/

Smell the coffee.

Wife and I go to bed at 9pm and are up about 5am. Like the vast majority of rural folks (who make up the vast majority of the population), the curfew has no effect at all on us.

Soooooo.....

You do have a moon where you live?

And you do live in Thailand?

The Land of Coups.

Publicus, This is rural Thailand, these times this poster posted is and has always been normal bed and rise hours -so a curfew will not interfere with the little farmer or cow/buffalo man

Get out into rural areas--live there then you can believe, THIS is normal. maybe you are Moon struck.

your wasting your time with him. He has sunk to reciting or trying to write poetry that will replace his normal rants for the preservation of corruption and nepotism.