Sympathy Or Their Own Fault?

[Eliot Rosewater]

Eliot Rosewater, do you really believe it’s your duty as a foreigner to instruct Thai’s on how to follow their laws? The thought of me encouraging them to break laws or my duties as a foreigner never crossed my mind, I was there to be compensated for damage to my motorbike.

Do you think it would have been preferable for me to lecture the family on how to follow and uphold the laws of Thailand and accept their money to teach them a lesson? That is just not me, it’s not my duty nor do I feel obligated or qualified to council someone on Thai law and I feel it inappropriate to comment on the way someone else chooses to raise their children, that’s their business.

Sometimes poor Thai children are allowed or forced to grow up too quickly and they make the mistakes of inexperience. What they did is normal behavior in Thailand; it’s a regular experience to see young children driving, it’s the Thai way, that’s life in Thailand. Is it dangerous, are they too young to drive, absolutely but in Thailand they are basically allowed to make those decisions themselves.

I will never know for sure but I hope the girls and the parents learned from that situation; nothing is a better teacher than past experience. The experience could possibly have saved their lives giving them more knowledge about driving in bad weather, and the realization of how costly and dangerous driving can be. Possibly the parents stopped them from driving for a few years, there are so many possible outcomes it’s pointless to speculate, all we can do is hope the best for them.

Eliot Rosewater, do you really believe it’s your duty as a foreigner to instruct Thai’s on how to follow their laws?

No, but I do believe it is your duty not to encourage others to break the law. By paying for the consequences of them breaking the law, you are actively encouraging illegal (and unethical) behavior.

Do you think it would have been preferable for me to lecture the family on how to follow and uphold the laws of Thailand and accept their money to teach them a lesson?

No, you should have just stayed out of it. You could have rejected their offer WITHOUT rewarding them for their dangerous and illegal activity.

The experience could possibly have saved their lives giving them more knowledge about driving in bad weather, and the realization of how costly and dangerous driving can be.

​Quite the opposite, you have taught them that they are not responsible for their own actions, and that whitey falang will bail them out of trouble when needed.

[POSA290103]

Eliot Rosewater, do you really believe it’s your duty as a foreigner to instruct Thai’s on how to follow their laws? The thought of me encouraging them to break laws or my duties as a foreigner never crossed my mind, I was there to be compensated for damage to my motorbike.

Do you think it would have been preferable for me to lecture the family on how to follow and uphold the laws of Thailand and accept their money to teach them a lesson? That is just not me, it’s not my duty nor do I feel obligated or qualified to council someone on Thai law and I feel it inappropriate to comment on the way someone else chooses to raise their children, that’s their business.

Sometimes poor Thai children are allowed or forced to grow up too quickly and they make the mistakes of inexperience. What they did is normal behavior in Thailand; it’s a regular experience to see young children driving, it’s the Thai way, that’s life in Thailand. Is it dangerous, are they too young to drive, absolutely but in Thailand they are basically allowed to make those decisions themselves.

I will never know for sure but I hope the girls and the parents learned from that situation; nothing is a better teacher than past experience. The experience could possibly have saved their lives giving them more knowledge about driving in bad weather, and the realization of how costly and dangerous driving can be. Possibly the parents stopped them from driving for a few years, there are so many possible outcomes it’s pointless to speculate, all we can do is hope the best for them.

Eliot Rosewater, do you really believe it’s your duty as a foreigner to instruct Thai’s on how to follow their laws?

No, but I do believe it is your duty not to encourage others to break the law. By paying for the consequences of them breaking the law, you are actively encouraging illegal (and unethical) behavior.

Do you think it would have been preferable for me to lecture the family on how to follow and uphold the laws of Thailand and accept their money to teach them a lesson?

No, you should have just stayed out of it. You could have rejected their offer WITHOUT rewarding them for their dangerous and illegal activity.

The experience could possibly have saved their lives giving them more knowledge about driving in bad weather, and the realization of how costly and dangerous driving can be.

​Quite the opposite, you have taught them that they are not responsible for their own actions, and that whitey falang will bail them out of trouble when needed.

Yes, Robert should have enforced the law and demanded Tea Money. Then they would be responsible.

[thailiketoo]

Is it legal for a 13 year old to drive a motorcycle here? If not or if she doesn't have a license, aren't you encouraging her to break the laws of this country?

Isn't it our duty as foreigner guests to follow and uphold the laws of our host country?

No. Definitely not.

[bowerboy]

_{I am not going to give the Gardner any money I have decided.}

_{The moment has passed now and finally I decided I would be betraying myself. There is nothing I hate more than the irresponsible drivers that you see in Thailand (especially those that endanger childrens lives)}and that is exactly what caused this mess...extremely irresponsble driving that was endangering a childs life...i cannot in any way endorse or reward that.

[David48]

When I stay in Thailand, which is more time then when I live in the west, I stay at the gf's Parents Farm on the outskirts on Bangkok.

FOR A FACT ... the gf's father employs one full time farm worker to manage the fish ponds.

He works 6 days a week.

Paid Bt 6,000 a month, has had a modest place built for him to live rent free on the Farm, has his elec, rice and fish paid for. He walks out of his door and he's at work.

When the Boss hires in casual Farm workers to harvest the fish, it's Bt300 for a 1/2 day, plus drinks (Water, soy milk, milk coffee, Red Bull, bottle of Whisky) and sometimes food.

So as for ... "It could be 50 TBH per day or even less for the poorest." ... please, unless you are genuinely hiring Thai Labours, keep those sort of comments to yourself and don't show your ignorance.

I too got an example, in my soi, there's a family of five,

Husband, wife and three school children, the man "works" as a garbage scavenger, runs around on his worn out saleng every morning until the garbage truck has collected most.

Sometimes he scores big, finding something worth more than 10TBH.

His aiming for cardbord, and plastics and do you know the given rate for that, I only have second hand information and that person tells me 50 satang per kilo.

I have no idea how much money the family makes per month but I certainly can't see any physical improvements on either the shack they are living in, nor can I see any luxury items around his shack.

He is working very hard EVERY day while his wife is tending their youngest child and the few chickens they have, whilest the two other children are in school

There are maybe thousands of these families in Phuket alone, if you don't believe me, I could take you for a ride and enlighten you with the non existant social welfare system in this country.

I wish someone could come up with a plausible figure how many lives under the minimum cost of living here in LOS.

And, yes I am actually genuinely hiring Thai labor, but I't a completely different matter as it's skilled staff.

So, thank you for confirming that, as you wrote ... "I have no idea how much money the family makes per month".

If you took the time to read my post correctly, you will read that the Thai man is hiring another Thai man, a Farm worker, a Labourer. If you don't think that the rate paid is not a true market rate then ...

As for "I could take you for a ride and enlighten you with the non existant social welfare system in this country." I have an open mind, but your post that you are superior and can teach me...

I'm supplying facts as what the Thai labour rates are, you are simply guessing ... but that's your prerogative.

If you want to keep slugging it out, then I'm happy to tap the Farming Forum on the shoulder and get them to reply as to what labours get on a daily basis.

If that doesn't satisfy you, I'll also tap the Building Forum on the other shoulder and let them inform you what the going rate is for general labourers and the various trades.

As for recycling, we store all that up at the Thai Farm and then sell it.

Do you sell your recycling into the market?

Look, lets simply end this here. If I say white, you will say black ... there appears to be no grey area.

We agree to disagree. Move on.

.

[David48]

Is it legal for a 13 year old to drive a motorcycle here? If not or if she doesn't have a license, aren't you encouraging her to break the laws of this country?

Isn't it our duty as foreigner guests to follow and uphold the laws of our host country?

No. Definitely not.

+1 Indeed it's not.

.

[David48]

I am not going to give the Gardner any money I have decided.

The moment has passed now and finally I decided I would be betraying myself. There is nothing I hate more than the irresponsible drivers that you see in Thailand (especially those that endanger childrens lives)and that is exactly what caused this mess...extremely irresponsble driving that was endangering a childs life...i cannot in any way endorse or reward that.

As the OP of this thread, I commend your thoughts and thinking about a humanitarian action ...

A good heart is often placed in conflict as to whether to intervene or not.

You've made a judgement call not to intervene ... I agree. Some here will, others not ... each to their own.

What I do encourage is for those with a charitable heart to seek those who are crying out for your help.

Places such as http://www.phayathaibabieshome.go.th/en/history.php

.

[Eliot Rosewater]

Is it legal for a 13 year old to drive a motorcycle here? If not or if she doesn't have a license, aren't you encouraging her to break the laws of this country?

Isn't it our duty as foreigner guests to follow and uphold the laws of our host country?

No. Definitely not.

+1 Indeed it's not.

.

It's not your duty to follow the laws of Thailand?

That is the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard. You should get to stepping...

[POSA290103]

Is it legal for a 13 year old to drive a motorcycle here? If not or if she doesn't have a license, aren't you encouraging her to break the laws of this country?

Isn't it our duty as foreigner guests to follow and uphold the laws of our host country?

No. Definitely not.

+1 Indeed it's not.

.

It's not your duty to follow the laws of Thailand?

That is the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard. You should get to stepping...

I believe our personal responsibility ends at obeying the laws of our host country. Enforcing those laws or not enforcing them is their domain.

[David48]

Is it legal for a 13 year old to drive a motorcycle here? If not or if she doesn't have a license, aren't you encouraging her to break the laws of this country?

Isn't it our duty as foreigner guests to follow and uphold the laws of our host country?

No. Definitely not.

+1 Indeed it's not.

It's not your duty to follow the laws of Thailand?

That is the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard. You should get to stepping...

If that is the most disrespectful thing you've heard then ...

Follow the laws ... sure.

But 'uphold the laws of our host country?' (the meaning is .. "to support or defend, as against opposition or criticism") ... nope ... not our job to police what others do.

Please feel free to jump in anytime and try and berate a Thai for dis-obeying a law. I'll have the Ambulance on speed dial for you.

There is a chasm between the Laws of Thailand and Law of Rule in Thailand.

If you don't understand that basic concept then ...

.

[kurnell]

Do shut up! how many Thai Merc owners do you really think would stoop down to even talk to a poor gardener. Stupid comment.

Sweet baby jesus, did IQs suddenly drop 20 points overnight? My post was so ludicrously 'tongue in cheek' that I think the average 4 year old would get it. What is the IQ of a 4 year old?

In almost every post here in TV, the words scammer, tricked, fooled, cheated appears and they all refers to Thai's.

Did you really believe I would recognise irony (if that's what it was) in a post like yours????

I think you have to work on your irony skills. How, when and where it's suitable to get the most value for it .

Apart from that, sorry if I over reacted a bit.

And another point when it comes to the english language, it's not my native language nor is it all of TV's readers/writers.

I'm too sleepy to respond. Too many red wines last night.

[POSA290103]

_{I am not going to give the Gardner any money I have decided.}

_{The moment has passed now and finally I decided I would be betraying myself. There is nothing I hate more than the irresponsible drivers that you see in Thailand (especially those that endanger childrens lives)}and that is exactly what caused this mess...extremely irresponsble driving that was endangering a childs life...i cannot in any way endorse or reward that.

I'm glad you arrived at a decision you can live with. There was plenty of feedback for and against helping out. I do hear you about irresponsible drivers. There is virtually no traffic enforcement in the village where I reside. No helmets, 2 yr old children standing on the foot platform holding on to the headlight, 3,4,or 5 teenagers on a motorbike riding down the road...... I could go on but I think you understand what I'm talking about. It drives me nuts just waiting for a accident to happen. I do believe that even a tragedy won't stop this behavior. So sad when all it would take is for some strict law enforcement to curtail this insanity. I don't believe it will end completely until society decides to end it. It has been going on for so long the risk isn't considered. The irresponsible drivers that really annoy me are the ones who come into my lane of traffic and flash their headlights for me to get out of their way. Or, how about the idiots that think a red stop light is only a suggestion to stop. I don't care to remember how many times I stopped at a green light only to see some maniac speed through the intersection against the red. They are the drivers who, I won't say hate but seriously dislike. I save hating for the real special cases. You brought up a great topic that made for a very colorful discussion. Thanks, All the Best!

[Robert2006]

Eliot Rosewater, do you really believe it’s your duty as a foreigner to instruct Thai’s on how to follow their laws? The thought of me encouraging them to break laws or my duties as a foreigner never crossed my mind, I was there to be compensated for damage to my motorbike.

Do you think it would have been preferable for me to lecture the family on how to follow and uphold the laws of Thailand and accept their money to teach them a lesson? That is just not me, it’s not my duty nor do I feel obligated or qualified to council someone on Thai law and I feel it inappropriate to comment on the way someone else chooses to raise their children, that’s their business.

Sometimes poor Thai children are allowed or forced to grow up too quickly and they make the mistakes of inexperience. What they did is normal behavior in Thailand; it’s a regular experience to see young children driving, it’s the Thai way, that’s life in Thailand. Is it dangerous, are they too young to drive, absolutely but in Thailand they are basically allowed to make those decisions themselves.

I will never know for sure but I hope the girls and the parents learned from that situation; nothing is a better teacher than past experience. The experience could possibly have saved their lives giving them more knowledge about driving in bad weather, and the realization of how costly and dangerous driving can be. Possibly the parents stopped them from driving for a few years, there are so many possible outcomes it’s pointless to speculate, all we can do is hope the best for them.

Eliot Rosewater, do you really believe it’s your duty as a foreigner to instruct Thai’s on how to follow their laws?

No, but I do believe it is your duty not to encourage others to break the law. By paying for the consequences of them breaking the law, you are actively encouraging illegal (and unethical) behavior.

Do you think it would have been preferable for me to lecture the family on how to follow and uphold the laws of Thailand and accept their money to teach them a lesson?

No, you should have just stayed out of it. You could have rejected their offer WITHOUT rewarding them for their dangerous and illegal activity.

The experience could possibly have saved their lives giving them more knowledge about driving in bad weather, and the realization of how costly and dangerous driving can be.

​Quite the opposite, you have taught them that they are not responsible for their own actions, and that whitey falang will bail them out of trouble when needed.

Yes, Robert should have enforced the law and demanded Tea Money. Then they would be responsible.

Eliot you’re a hard core individual that can turn an act of kindness into a potential death sentence, however it is a fascinating opinion on the encounter, one that I certainly would not have gave consideration to before, nonetheless I don’t agree with it.

It has always been my nature since I moved to Thailand to perhaps have too much sympathy for the poor, it’s painful for me to see those people suffering and coming from the west I had never before seen real poverty. It’s remarkable that I feel that way because I’ve been cheated and deceived almost on a daily basis by the Thai people for the last 8 years. I know they’re not all bad but it says a lot that almost universally my western friends do not trust Thai’s. The lack of honesty and integrity that is so pervasive in Thailand is precisely the reason why I left the Kingdom 3 months ago and moved back to the west, it just got appalling for me to continue to subject myself to the corruption, thievery, jealousy and racism.

In the end I hope I helped the family with a little kindness by allowing them to keep their fancy pieces of paper so coveted in that dog eat dog existence that all face sometimes in Thailand. So we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

[Eliot Rosewater]

Is it legal for a 13 year old to drive a motorcycle here? If not or if she doesn't have a license, aren't you encouraging her to break the laws of this country?

Isn't it our duty as foreigner guests to follow and uphold the laws of our host country?

No. Definitely not.

+1 Indeed it's not.

.

It's not your duty to follow the laws of Thailand?

That is the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard. You should get to stepping...

I believe our personal responsibility ends at obeying the laws of our host country. Enforcing those laws or not enforcing them is their domain.

I said follow and uphold (personally)

Not enforce

If you see people breaking the law, stay out of it

Don't involve yourself and support tgeir actions by giving them money for it

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[POSA290103]

Is it legal for a 13 year old to drive a motorcycle here? If not or if she doesn't have a license, aren't you encouraging her to break the laws of this country?

Isn't it our duty as foreigner guests to follow and uphold the laws of our host country?

No. Definitely not.

+1 Indeed it's not.

.

It's not your duty to follow the laws of Thailand?

That is the most disrespectful thing I have ever heard. You should get to stepping...

I believe our personal responsibility ends at obeying the laws of our host country. Enforcing those laws or not enforcing them is their domain.

I said follow and uphold (personally)

Not enforce

If you see people breaking the law, stay out of it

Don't involve yourself and support tgeir actions by giving them money for it

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Didn't mean to insinuate you said "enforce". I was just stating my belief.

[Naam]

_{I am not going to give the Gardner any money I have decided.}

_{The moment has passed now and finally I decided I would be betraying myself. There is nothing I hate more than the irresponsible drivers that you see in Thailand (especially those that endanger childrens lives)}and that is exactly what caused this mess...extremely irresponsble driving that was endangering a childs life...i cannot in any way endorse or reward that.

you must be really proud of yourself that it took less than two days to reach that decision

[bowerboy]

So today I see the Gardner riding his motorbike AGAIN with the kid in the same spot in the side car!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!

[David48]

So today I see the Gardner riding his motorbike AGAIN with the kid in the same spot in the side car!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!

So, would the conclusion be that, even if you did pay for the repairs to the Benz, the attitudes and perceived responsibilities of the Gardiner would not change?

[POSA290103]

So today I see the Gardner riding his motorbike AGAIN with the kid in the same spot in the side car!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!!!

So, would the conclusion be that, even if you did pay for the repairs to the Benz, the attitudes and perceived responsibilities of the Gardiner would not change?

To some it would.

[KamalaRider]

When I stay in Thailand, which is more time then when I live in the west, I stay at the gf's Parents Farm on the outskirts on Bangkok.

FOR A FACT ... the gf's father employs one full time farm worker to manage the fish ponds.

He works 6 days a week.

Paid Bt 6,000 a month, has had a modest place built for him to live rent free on the Farm, has his elec, rice and fish paid for. He walks out of his door and he's at work.

When the Boss hires in casual Farm workers to harvest the fish, it's Bt300 for a 1/2 day, plus drinks (Water, soy milk, milk coffee, Red Bull, bottle of Whisky) and sometimes food.

So as for ... "It could be 50 TBH per day or even less for the poorest." ... please, unless you are genuinely hiring Thai Labours, keep those sort of comments to yourself and don't show your ignorance.

I too got an example, in my soi, there's a family of five,

Husband, wife and three school children, the man "works" as a garbage scavenger, runs around on his worn out saleng every morning until the garbage truck has collected most.

Sometimes he scores big, finding something worth more than 10TBH.

His aiming for cardbord, and plastics and do you know the given rate for that, I only have second hand information and that person tells me 50 satang per kilo.

I have no idea how much money the family makes per month but I certainly can't see any physical improvements on either the shack they are living in, nor can I see any luxury items around his shack.

He is working very hard EVERY day while his wife is tending their youngest child and the few chickens they have, whilest the two other children are in school

There are maybe thousands of these families in Phuket alone, if you don't believe me, I could take you for a ride and enlighten you with the non existant social welfare system in this country.

I wish someone could come up with a plausible figure how many lives under the minimum cost of living here in LOS.

And, yes I am actually genuinely hiring Thai labor, but I't a completely different matter as it's skilled staff.

So, thank you for confirming that, as you wrote ... "I have no idea how much money the family makes per month".

If you took the time to read my post correctly, you will read that the Thai man is hiring another Thai man, a Farm worker, a Labourer. If you don't think that the rate paid is not a true market rate then ...

As for "I could take you for a ride and enlighten you with the non existant social welfare system in this country." I have an open mind, but your post that you are superior and can teach me...

I'm supplying facts as what the Thai labour rates are, you are simply guessing ... but that's your prerogative.

If you want to keep slugging it out, then I'm happy to tap the Farming Forum on the shoulder and get them to reply as to what labours get on a daily basis.

If that doesn't satisfy you, I'll also tap the Building Forum on the other shoulder and let them inform you what the going rate is for general labourers and the various trades.

As for recycling, we store all that up at the Thai Farm and then sell it.

Prawn Harvest and Buy Prawn 035 LR.jpg Prawn Harvest and Buy Prawn 036 LR.jpg

Do you sell your recycling into the market?

Look, lets simply end this here. If I say white, you will say black ... there appears to be no grey area.

We agree to disagree. Move on.

.

Not anywhere in my posts do I say that the REGISTERED labourer doesn't get the rate set by law.

But sometimes they actually don't, as your example, you (fatherinlaw) is actually paying 3000 less than the law constitutes.

Regardless of what else benefits he gets, he's still underpaid according to the law.

So in fact you aren't correct with your posts.

No I don't recycle, Wth does that has to do with anything?

What gray area? We haven't had a discussion about the same topic just yet.

Tap on, It's very "amusing" when some westerners believe Thailand only concists of construction companies and farrang owned business who hires staff.

Please, don't ask questions and after tell me to move on, only bullies use that tactic,

I hope that was just a plain mistake on your part.

But Ok, I won't write anything more about this, as we have wandered far away from the OP's topic.

[David48]

Mate, I'm happy to let you have the last word on the subject.

What I said above was "We agree to disagree. Move on."

My bad, and my English was poor as the words didn't convey the meaning.

Let me rephrase ...

We agree to disagree. Let us both move on.

.

[KamalaRider]

Mate, I'm happy to let you have the last word on the subject.

What I said above was "We agree to disagree. Move on."

My bad, and my English was poor as the words didn't convey the meaning.

Let me rephrase ...

We agree to disagree. Let us both move on.

.

I agree and thanks for the rephrase.

[ppmacready]

As heartless as this may seem to some readers ... your best option is to do nothing.

Let the Thais sort out their problem.

The Benz owner may decide to make merit by not persueing the matter.

Why did a 63 year old have a baby?

Abortion is illegal in Thailand.

You can't get blood out of a stone!

If the Benz owner takes the guy to court the judge will howl with laughter and order him to pay 1baht a month.

My friend won an amount 'in court' of around 600K.

5 years later he still hasn't got a penny.

Get your wife to advise him to let the guy take him to court!

Tough call for you.

Buy baby formula.

I never give cash directly to the poor.

Only food and medicine.

[Thongkorn]

The baby is the air bag. Thought you would have known that it standard issue on most Thai Bikes.

[wilcopops]

Go round the estate and have a whip round.......

I'd love to suggest a solution involving the merc..........

[Aussieroaming]

I like the post... It opens so many avenues of debate.

Has the gardener asked for your help? Does he really want it? Will giving him the money assuage the guilt you obviously feel for someone who is financially worse off than you.

My thoughts are...maybe karma caused him to hit a merc and be 8k out of pocket. Now he will be short of cash to buy fuel, will reduce the amount of occassions that he can afford to take the baby on perilous trips and therefore increase her prospects of growing up.

Or alternately, you give him 8k, he celebrates with a bottle of thai whiskey has a worse accident and you feel morally responsible for that too.

What I'm getting at is that every action has a reaction....where do you draw a line in the sand.

[AYJAYDEE]

I like the post... It opens so many avenues of debate.

Has the gardener asked for your help? Does he really want it? Will giving him the money assuage the guilt you obviously feel for someone who is financially worse off than you.

My thoughts are...maybe karma caused him to hit a merc and be 8k out of pocket. Now he will be short of cash to buy fuel, will reduce the amount of occassions that he can afford to take the baby on perilous trips and therefore increase her prospects of growing up.

Or alternately, you give him 8k, he celebrates with a bottle of thai whiskey has a worse accident and you feel morally responsible for that too.

What I'm getting at is that every action has a reaction....where do you draw a line in the sand.

wherever he feels it should be drawn