Got "retirement money certificate" from US Embassy yesterday

[robblok]

The US State Department policy that Embassies and Consulates will not be put in a position to determine the authenticity of documents originating in the USA is consistent worldwide. The option to Thailand was either to accept this policy or tell US citizens that they cannot use the income affidavit method for purposes of extension of stay, Thailand Immigration maintains the right to ask for any corroborating information as to the information on the affidavit.

There is really no way these days given PhotoShop, PageMaker/InDesign, etc. that anyone today can determine with only a brief look-over that a document has not been forged or altered.

Then the USA is light-years behind other civilised countries. Where I come from the tax office knows how much you make and how much you have on your banks. Just because they are incompetent at the USA does not mean it is the same in the rest of the world.

[JLCrab]

I look at it differently -- The US State Department realizes how these days such hard-copy documents can be readily forged or altered. They have a procedure to authenticate documents that begins with the issuer of the document in the USA but it is tedious.

Edited June 12, 2014 by JLCrab

[robblok]

I look at it differently -- The US State Department realizes how these days such hard-copy documents can be readily forged or altered. They have a procedure to authenticate documents that begins with the issuer of the document in the USA but it is tedious.

If you get a link to the IRS then they KNOW what you make as nobody is going to pay tax over money they don't make (ok maybe people who need to laundry money).

Its not impossible they just don't want to do it and in doing so create a big loophole. I can tell you one thing I would have sworn my mother was the virgin Mary in a system like that. Its open for abuse with almost no chance to get caught.

Other countries are just ahead of the USA.

Am I envious.. yes maybe as it would free up 400k from the bank. Am I right with my points also.

[JLCrab]

Actually the process for certification of documents by The Embassy of The Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok is pretty close to the protracted US Procedure:

Requesting and legalising documents can take several months. When requesting a document, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is dependent on local circumstances and cannot therefore guarantee that the document requested will be supplied. We regret that your fee cannot be refunded if the document requested is not available, since costs will nevertheless have been incurred.

http://thailand.nlembassy.org/services/consular-services/legalisation-of-documents/legalising-dutch-and-foreign-documents.html

Your willingness to commit fraud and a felony against your own government regardless of the possibility (for now) of getting caught speaks loads

[ubonjoe]

I look at it differently -- The US State Department realizes how these days such hard-copy documents can be readily forged or altered. They have a procedure to authenticate documents that begins with the issuer of the document in the USA but it is tedious.

If you get a link to the IRS then they KNOW what you make as nobody is going to pay tax over money they don't make (ok maybe people who need to laundry money).

Its not impossible they just don't want to do it and in doing so create a big loophole. I can tell you one thing I would have sworn my mother was the virgin Mary in a system like that. Its open for abuse with almost no chance to get caught.

Other countries are just ahead of the USA.

Am I envious.. yes maybe as it would free up 400k from the bank. Am I right with my points also.

I am not sure I would want a person in the consular section having in access to my personal information.

So I would say that the US is ahead of other countries if that can be done at a consular office.

The US is not the only embassy that does it by way of a sworn statement (affidavit or statutory declaration).

It is not a loophole.

The UK embassy puts a disclaimer on the income letters stating they are not responsible for the info contained in the letter (not exactly the wording of it but close).

[robblok]

Actually the process for certification of documents by The Embassy of The Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok is pretty close to the protracted US Procedure:

Requesting and legalising documents can take several months. When requesting a document, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is dependent on local circumstances and cannot therefore guarantee that the document requested will be supplied. We regret that your fee cannot be refunded if the document requested is not available, since costs will nevertheless have been incurred.

http://thailand.nlembassy.org/services/consular-services/legalisation-of-documents/legalising-dutch-and-foreign-documents.html

Your willingness to commit fraud and a felony against your own government regardless of the possibility (for now) of getting caught speaks loads

It speaks loads of me maybe.. but I bet you that many of your fellow US are committing fraud this way. I would wager on it. I would also wager that this way the US has the highest amount of people committing fraud this way compared to other countries.

If there is no chance of getting caught there is no reason not to do it. I don't feel this as a major issue. It would be different if I were stealing or hurting someone. I am sure many feel the same way.

Its not close at all.. you need to go to the embassy with proof and if they want it they could check it. Nothing like the US where you don't have to bring a thing and just say you have it. It is lowering the threshold for fraud. It is easier as in any other country.

Just swearing is easier then forging documents, just admit to it then we are done.

I am not saying go for it commit fraud.. just saying its made awfully easy.

I will quit now before i derail this topic.

Edited June 12, 2014 by robblok

[pmarlin]

I look at it differently -- The US State Department realizes how these days such hard-copy documents can be readily forged or altered. They have a procedure to authenticate documents that begins with the issuer of the document in the USA but it is tedious.

If you get a link to the IRS then they KNOW what you make as nobody is going to pay tax over money they don't make (ok maybe people who need to laundry money).

Its not impossible they just don't want to do it and in doing so create a big loophole. I can tell you one thing I would have sworn my mother was the virgin Mary in a system like that. Its open for abuse with almost no chance to get caught.

Other countries are just ahead of the USA.

Am I envious.. yes maybe as it would free up 400k from the bank. Am I right with my points also.

You do know that other western countries have the same policy on income letters. It's not just the USA.

[pmarlin]

Actually the process for certification of documents by The Embassy of The Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok is pretty close to the protracted US Procedure:

Requesting and legalising documents can take several months. When requesting a document, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is dependent on local circumstances and cannot therefore guarantee that the document requested will be supplied. We regret that your fee cannot be refunded if the document requested is not available, since costs will nevertheless have been incurred.

http://thailand.nlembassy.org/services/consular-services/legalisation-of-documents/legalising-dutch-and-foreign-documents.html

Your willingness to commit fraud and a felony against your own government regardless of the possibility (for now) of getting caught speaks loads

It speaks loads of me maybe.. but I bet you that many of your fellow US are committing fraud this way. I would wager on it. I would also wager that this way the US has the highest amount of people committing fraud this way compared to other countries.

If there is no chance of getting caught there is no reason not to do it. I don't feel this as a major issue. It would be different if I were stealing or hurting someone. I am sure many feel the same way.

Its not close at all.. you need to go to the embassy with proof and if they want it they could check it. Nothing like the US where you don't have to bring a thing and just say you have it. It is lowering the threshold for fraud. It is easier as in any other country.

Just swearing is easier then forging documents, just admit to it then we are done.

I am not saying go for it commit fraud.. just saying its made awfully easy.

I will quit now before i derail this topic.

You bet wrong. I don't know of anyone and if they did they sure wouldn't admit it. If caught it's only five years in a federal lockup plus a $50,000 fine for making and swearing to a false document.

[robblok]

Actually the process for certification of documents by The Embassy of The Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok is pretty close to the protracted US Procedure:

Requesting and legalising documents can take several months. When requesting a document, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is dependent on local circumstances and cannot therefore guarantee that the document requested will be supplied. We regret that your fee cannot be refunded if the document requested is not available, since costs will nevertheless have been incurred.

http://thailand.nlembassy.org/services/consular-services/legalisation-of-documents/legalising-dutch-and-foreign-documents.html

Your willingness to commit fraud and a felony against your own government regardless of the possibility (for now) of getting caught speaks loads

It speaks loads of me maybe.. but I bet you that many of your fellow US are committing fraud this way. I would wager on it. I would also wager that this way the US has the highest amount of people committing fraud this way compared to other countries.

If there is no chance of getting caught there is no reason not to do it. I don't feel this as a major issue. It would be different if I were stealing or hurting someone. I am sure many feel the same way.

Its not close at all.. you need to go to the embassy with proof and if they want it they could check it. Nothing like the US where you don't have to bring a thing and just say you have it. It is lowering the threshold for fraud. It is easier as in any other country.

Just swearing is easier then forging documents, just admit to it then we are done.

I am not saying go for it commit fraud.. just saying its made awfully easy.

I will quit now before i derail this topic.

You bet wrong. I don't know of anyone and if they did they sure wouldn't admit it. If caught it's only five years in a federal lockup plus a $50,000 fine for making and swearing to a false document.

That is an empty threat if there is no chance to get caught as they don't check a thing.

I keep stating that having to bring your documents is less prone to fraud as not bringing a thing and just swearing. Forging documents is a step up compared to just swearing. They could spot mistakes on your documents chance to get caught is higher.

I said I was not going to respond anymore but you drag me back into it. Lets agree to disagree.

[JLCrab]

I have ample back-up to my sworn statement which I bring to IMM when I do my extension; one time they called me soon as I arrived and that document was mixed in.The officer looked at it quickly and saw that it was not part of the required parcel and set it aside.

There may very well be Americans who swear falsely to the affidavit as well as other stat dec countries. Thai Immigration always has the option to request any corroborating information. So that is up to them.

The way one might someday be caught in a felony is if the Thai IMM asks for corroborating documents and none can be provided -- then Thai IMM gets back to the US Embassy with that information. So the mechanism is there if they should so choose.

One thing may be certain -- the US Department of State is not going to change its policies regarding authentication of documents that are consistent worldwide to accommodate Thailand.

Edited June 12, 2014 by JLCrab

[Pattaya46]

There may very well be Americans who swear falsely to the affidavit //

It's not a "may" or a "if"; it's certain!

It's not that far (1 or 2 years maybe?) that news talked a lot about some Farangs unable to pay their hospital bill (still relatively modest), despite having an authorization of stay for Retirement, and then supposed to have the money to pay.

Several of them where American and the "problem" of this "worthless Embassy letter" has been discussed a lot on Internet at this time. Don't remember the whole story, but think Immigration has at this time often ask for more proves.

I understand the point of some members here: they have to prove they have money; Americans just have to lie... and clearly it's not a problem for some of them.

[pmarlin]

There may very well be Americans who swear falsely to the affidavit //

It's not a "may" or a "if"; it's certain!

It's not that far (1 or 2 years maybe?) that news talked a lot about some Farangs unable to pay their hospital bill (still relatively modest), despite having an authorization of stay for Retirement, and then supposed to have the money to pay.

Several of them where American and the "problem" of this "worthless Embassy letter" has been discussed a lot on Internet at this time. Don't remember the whole story, but think Immigration has at this time often ask for more proves.

I understand the point of some members here: they have to prove they have money; Americans just have to lie... and clearly it's not a problem for some of them.

The news back then was not about Americans who were here on retirement extensions but about tourist who walked away from hosp bills. That was why a proposal was made to require all tourist to purchase insurance. If I am wrong please prove your source.

[ubonjoe]

There may very well be Americans who swear falsely to the affidavit //

It's not a "may" or a "if"; it's certain!

It's not that far (1 or 2 years maybe?) that news talked a lot about some Farangs unable to pay their hospital bill (still relatively modest), despite having an authorization of stay for Retirement, and then supposed to have the money to pay.

Several of them where American and the "problem" of this "worthless Embassy letter" has been discussed a lot on Internet at this time. Don't remember the whole story, but think Immigration has at this time often ask for more proves.

I understand the point of some members here: they have to prove they have money; Americans just have to lie... and clearly it's not a problem for some of them.

I think saying "American just have to lie" is a bit over the top. There are those from several other countries that don't have to do anything but swear an oath. And then there are others that only require documents that are not verified in any way to get the income letter.

Then of course their are others others that are paying a considerable amount of money in order to get proof they have money in the bank. There have been posts on this forum of how that was done.

[dinger]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Actually the process for certification of documents by The Embassy of The Kingdom of the Netherlands in Bangkok is pretty close to the protracted US Procedure:

Requesting and legalising documents can take several months. When requesting a document, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is dependent on local circumstances and cannot therefore guarantee that the document requested will be supplied. We regret that your fee cannot be refunded if the document requested is not available, since costs will nevertheless have been incurred.

http://thailand.nlembassy.org/services/consular-services/legalisation-of-documents/legalising-dutch-and-foreign-documents.html

Your willingness to commit fraud and a felony against your own government regardless of the possibility (for now) of getting caught speaks loads

It speaks loads of me maybe.. but I bet you that many of your fellow US are committing fraud this way. I would wager on it. I would also wager that this way the US has the highest amount of people committing fraud this way compared to other countries.

If there is no chance of getting caught there is no reason not to do it. I don't feel this as a major issue. It would be different if I were stealing or hurting someone. I am sure many feel the same way.

Its not close at all.. you need to go to the embassy with proof and if they want it they could check it. Nothing like the US where you don't have to bring a thing and just say you have it. It is lowering the threshold for fraud. It is easier as in any other country.

Just swearing is easier then forging documents, just admit to it then we are done.

I am not saying go for it commit fraud.. just saying its made awfully easy.

I will quit now before i derail this topic.

True you are not saying go commit fraud, but you are making a very blanket statement by saying that many U S expats are already committing fraud and you would bet on it

There may very well be Americans who swear falsely to the affidavit //

It's not a "may" or a "if"; it's certain!
It's not that far (1 or 2 years maybe?) that news talked a lot about some Farangs unable to pay their hospital bill (still relatively modest), despite having an authorization of stay for Retirement, and then supposed to have the money to pay.
Several of them where American and the "problem" of this "worthless Embassy letter" has been discussed a lot on Internet at this time. Don't remember the whole story, but think Immigration has at this time often ask for more proves.
I understand the point of some members here: they have to prove they have money; Americans just have to lie... and clearly it's not a problem for some of them.

Let see here. By having 800,000 in the bank for 3 months I am guarantying I will never be with out money in the future to pay my hospital bills. How do I know that you didn't just borrow the money for 3 months and then withdrew it the day after you get your extension and paid it back, thus leaving you with out any income.

[glegolo]

Posted Yesterday, 00:46 - CharlesHH

I made appointment on line with US Embassy in BKK one day before, Monday. Went in on time on Tuesday, explained I need paper to show that I had sworn my monthly income from retirement sources exceeded the lower limit Thailand demands for normal retirement visa/permit. Filled out one sheet including stating USD amount of my monthly income.

Go to cashier, FIFTY DOLLARS please. Paid with a US hundred and got back locally worthless two twenties and a ten USD change. Cashier has no fifty dollar bills.

Called 10 min later and I looked notary in the eye as I swore my info was correct. She signed, stamped, and embossed my form. Whole visit was about 40 min.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont care what you american "honest" guys says, but I dont like it at all, I mean, you can "swear" in front God or who ever you like, But unlike so many other expats here in Thailand you have it so easy really... NOT FAIR AT ALL.... And dont give me that swearing thing again, it is just bull...

I just dont understand who just your country of all countries let your citizens off the hook so easily....Is it of of lack of respect, just wondering???

Glegolo

[JLCrab]

The US State Department told Thai Immigration we don't verify authenticity of documents anywhere in the world. (Then maybe) if you don't like it, do not accept such documents from American citizens for purpose of extension and require that they have 800K/400K in the bank. I said that Post #17

If your government says we will authenticate our citizen's documents (Yea -- they look real enough to us) according to the wishes of Thai IMM, that is your problem.

Edited June 12, 2014 by JLCrab

[glegolo]

The US State Department told Thai Immigration we don't verify authenticity of documents anywhere in the world. If you don't like it, do not accept such documents from American citizens for purpose of extension and require that they have 800K/400K in the bank. I said that Post #17

If your government says we will authenticate our citizen's documents (Yea -- they look real enough to us) according to the wishes of Thai IMM, that is your problem.

We (Sweden for example) must have a document in ORIGINAL from our goverment to show our embassy...So that is serious enough I think.. At least we are not fabricating numbers like so many poor american guys running around here in Thailand..... Say what you like, but it is a disgrace..

Glegolo

[JLCrab]

The US State Department told Thai Immigration we don't verify authenticity of documents anywhere in the world. If you don't like it, do not accept such documents from American citizens for purpose of extension and require that they have 800K/400K in the bank. I said that Post #17

If your government says we will authenticate our citizen's documents (Yea -- they look real enough to us) according to the wishes of Thai IMM, that is your problem.

We (Sweden for example) must have a document in ORIGINAL from our goverment to show our embassy...So that is serious enough I think.. At least we are not fabricating numbers like so many poor american guys running around here in Thailand..... Say what you like, but it is a disgrace..

Glegolo

Right -- and it is the policy of the US Department of State that persons at any Embassy/Consulate worldwide have no way to properly ascertain whether that document is in fact an original or has not in someway been altered as we have no documented chain of custody of that document from when and where it was originally issued.

If you have problems you should go to Immigration.go.th and 'Contact' page and express your outrage somewhere it may count.

Edited June 12, 2014 by JLCrab

[Jeffrey346]

My question is: why pay $50. if you have legitimate income of B800,000 or more? I go to Bangkok Bank. ask for a letter of international deposits to my account. Pay the B300 fee and I am done in 20 minutes.

[ubonjoe]

My question is: why pay $50. if you have legitimate income of B800,000 or more? I go to Bangkok Bank. ask for a letter of international deposits to my account. Pay the B300 fee and I am done in 20 minutes.

That is having 800k baht in the bank for 3 months not income.

[JLCrab]

Just to note that the US Embassy in Bangkok will not authenticate a document issued in the USA by the US Government itself for the reasons I mention above.

[dinger]

Posted Yesterday, 00:46 - CharlesHH

I made appointment on line with US Embassy in BKK one day before, Monday. Went in on time on Tuesday, explained I need paper to show that I had sworn my monthly income from retirement sources exceeded the lower limit Thailand demands for normal retirement visa/permit. Filled out one sheet including stating USD amount of my monthly income.

Go to cashier, FIFTY DOLLARS please. Paid with a US hundred and got back locally worthless two twenties and a ten USD change. Cashier has no fifty dollar bills.

Called 10 min later and I looked notary in the eye as I swore my info was correct. She signed, stamped, and embossed my form. Whole visit was about 40 min.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont care what you american "honest" guys says, but I dont like it at all, I mean, you can "swear" in front God or who ever you like, But unlike so many other expats here in Thailand you have it so easy really... NOT FAIR AT ALL.... And dont give me that swearing thing again, it is just bull...

I just dont understand who just your country of all countries let your citizens off the hook so easily....Is it of of lack of respect, just wondering???

Glegolo

I think you are missing the point on this one all together. it doesn't matter what the U S Embassy does, you could get your signature notarized in crayon on a lunch bag it is what the Thai immigration will accept that counts when all is said and done.

And if you don't think it is fair then you should march your self right up to the U S Embassy and tell them that you are not being treated fairly and they need to make some changes

Edited June 12, 2014 by dinger

[JLCrab]

The US Ambassador in Bangkok is just following US State Department policy. The gent should doing his marching & demanding that they no longer accept US Income Affidavits at Thai Immigration HQ, Suan Phlu, Bangkok.

[The Usual Suspect]

I took proof of my income and was surprised when they didn't ask for it. Procedure was simple and straightforward.

Just wish my dealings with the Thai government could be that easy.

[JLCrab]

I took proof of my income and was surprised when they didn't ask for it. Procedure was simple and straightforward.

Just wish my dealings with the Thai government could be that easy.

Bring your proof with you when you go to Thai Immigration. They probably won't ask but they have every right to do so.

[dinger]

The US State Department told Thai Immigration we don't verify authenticity of documents anywhere in the world. If you don't like it, do not accept such documents from American citizens for purpose of extension and require that they have 800K/400K in the bank. I said that Post #17

If your government says we will authenticate our citizen's documents (Yea -- they look real enough to us) according to the wishes of Thai IMM, that is your problem.

We (Sweden for example) must have a document in ORIGINAL from our goverment to show our embassy...So that is serious enough I think.. At least we are not fabricating numbers like so many poor american guys running around here in Thailand..... Say what you like, but it is a disgrace..

Glegolo

So it must be a real nightmare in Sweden, what does it take to get your letter 6 maybe 8 weeks, because they do contact the original source to verify the authenticity of the original document. Because who knows you might be very good at Photoshop and be fabricating the document and then it would be fraud, and that would be a disgrace.

[elgenon]

I don't understand. You are new to Thai Visa but have 142 posts and are a Senior Member???

BTW. I would never have posted such information as it is not a good idea to flaunt things that others will cry about and may cause the policy to be changed in the future.

An "unsubstantiated opinion"? Mai kao jai krup.

[elgenon]

The Thai government used to require bank statements showing the income flow. They no longer do. Is that America's fault???

[Evilbaz]

When you stand in any country's Embassy or Consulate legally it is the same as standing on that country's soil.

If you swear or affirm a false affidavit in front of an officer there you are committing a Federal offence and are subject to that country's penalties.

No ifs, buts or maybe - so Up 2 U.

I have to go through the same process annually with the Australian Embassy or Consulate.

They also cannot attest to the veracity of supporting documents for reasons discussed above.

However, Thai Immigration in Phuket last December required

(a) proof of income documents supporting the Affidavit

( proof of the balance required to make up the balance to 65,000 baht per month (bank letter etc).

However, the Captain there told me this year "the balance" will have to be in the bank for three months (same as the 800K deposit)

So another change in the fluid Immi requirements - before there was no "seasoning period" required for the balance in the "mix and match" option.

I showed the Captain the Regulation saying, in effect, you only had to have the balance in the Bank on the day of application (without "seasoning").

She smiled and said - "Up to me - I'm the Boss here".

As always - it is up to the Immigration officer you face on the day.

[chingching]

The people that work at the consulate are not all Americans. I think some are even volunteers. I recently went there to have notarized a document from a different usa government agency.

The instructions clearly stated in English to notarize document A or document B. They wanted me to notarize both ( at a cost of 50 bucks each, naturally). We went back and forth on it for quite a while. Finally they caved in, and said they would allow me to only notarize document A.