British Government Visa rant (Update)

[7by7]

Ever since my then girlfriend, now wife, was refused a UK visit visa 14 years ago I have taken a keen interest in UK visa matters.

From the successful settlement applications by my wife and step daughter, from the successful visit applications by my step son and sister in law and from reading numerous posts about refusals on this and similar forums; I have come to the conclusion that there are three reasons, and three reasons only, why a UK visa application is refused.

They are, in ascending order:-

• a mistake by the ECO;
• the applicant did not meet the criteria;
• the applicant did meet the criteria but failed to show that they did.

This conclusion is, I believe, supported by the fact that consistently well over 90% of all applications in Thailand are successful; 95% in the first quarter of 2014.

See here for the actual statistics.

[The Fat Controller]

For my side of the application, I supplied a letter of invitation detailing my employment, housing and financial status.

I did mention that the bank, savings and pay details were internet copies and that they could correlate deposits between accounts by date.

ALL of my financial records were printed at home and never endorsed by the bank or even signed by myself.

The current and savings accounts were from Nationwide's internet banking site.

Payslips were printed PDF files that my company produces for us, paper copies are no longer an option.

The only things I signed were the letter and the copy of my passport.

[ulike]

They are, in ascending order:-

• a mistake by the ECO;

Well said. And I agree. I looked at the ECO training requirement and its something like 6-8 weeks in London!!!!

To get the right result for us, needed a very high level Silk with a fee most salarymen cannot afford. Is that right? Is that justice? I don't think so and its my first let down on Britain. But, that is OK as it had to come and I have spent many years in Britain as a student and later wife. So, it is still OK as I am a true lover of Queen and country and we are not perfect. But, even so, I agree in total and entirely with 7by7 ECOs are not solicitors and barristers and their decision are not reviewed before issuing.

[durhamboy]

Durhamboy,

Reason to return was mentioned by thaimite as an afterthought; his original rant was about the ECO not accepting unmamded bank statements.

The refusal notice will have fully explained the reasons for refusal and why; but unless he posts the actual refusal notice these are known only to him, his wife and the ECO concerned.

Printouts of internet bank statements are not accepted unless accompanied by a letter from the bank authenticating them, as in your case, or each page is stamped as authentic by the bank.

In a settlement or PBS application the ECO can contact the applicant or sponsor for further evidence if needed.

They cannot do this in a visit application; they must, except in the most exceptional of circumstances, judge the application on the evidence submitted. It is not a case of the ECO choosing not to contact thaimite or his wife for more evidence; the rules do not allow them to do so.

ECB10.7 What to do if an applicant provides insufficient information

Yes you are right that initially Thaimite thought the refusal was because of the bank statements. However, he now seems to accept that it was probably more to do with proving reasons to return.

You say that print outs of internet statements are not acceptable without original letter or stamps. This may be what the guidance says but, in practice, the ECOs are accepting print outs only e.g. as Fat Controller has posted here and others have posted elsewhere. yes it is advisable to get them stamped but that is not always possible.

You say that an ECO cannot contact an applicant regarding a visit visa. Well that may be what the rules say but, in practice, I am sure that an ECO could make a simple phone call to an applicant or sponsor if he/she thought it appropriate.

[durhamboy]

Durhamboy,

Reason to return was mentioned by thaimite as an afterthought; his original rant was about the ECO not accepting unmamded bank statements.

The refusal notice will have fully explained the reasons for refusal and why; but unless he posts the actual refusal notice these are known only to him, his wife and the ECO concerned.

Printouts of internet bank statements are not accepted unless accompanied by a letter from the bank authenticating them, as in your case, or each page is stamped as authentic by the bank.

In a settlement or PBS application the ECO can contact the applicant or sponsor for further evidence if needed.

They cannot do this in a visit application; they must, except in the most exceptional of circumstances, judge the application on the evidence submitted. It is not a case of the ECO choosing not to contact thaimite or his wife for more evidence; the rules do not allow them to do so.

ECB10.7 What to do if an applicant provides insufficient information

Yes you are right that initially Thaimite thought the refusal was because of the bank statements. However, he now seems to accept that it was probably more to do with proving reasons to return.

You say that print outs of internet statements are not acceptable without original letter or stamps. This may be what the guidance says but, in practice, the ECOs are accepting print outs only e.g. as Fat Controller has posted here and others have posted elsewhere. yes it is advisable to get them stamped but that is not always possible.

You say that an ECO cannot contact an applicant regarding a visit visa. Well that may be what the rules say but, in practice, I am sure that an ECO could make a simple phone call to an applicant or sponsor if he/she thought it appropriate.

[7by7]

It does seem that they have relaxed the requirements for internet bank accounts; but I suspect the big difference between The Fat Controller and thaimite was that TFC had his, or the account holder's if different, name on the printouts!

ECO's in Thailand have thousands of applications to process each month (19,895 in the first quarter of 2014, see here).

The application form and all official guidance makes it clear that the onus is on the applicant to ensure that the application, including supporting documents, is complete.

Why should other applicant's applications be delayed while ECOs break their guidance and rules to chase up applicants and/or sponsor's who haven't checked their application is complete before submitting it?

I bet you would be very annoyed if your wife's application were delayed for any reason; let alone because of other applicants' laziness!

[durhamboy]

My wife's visa took about 3 months for them to process and cost me and arm and a leg so I couldn't have been more annoyed anyway!

Seeing as you want to get a bit personal especially with your reference to the applicant's "laziness" then let me tell you that you are like a brilliant doctor with a lousy bedside manner. Your knowledge and advice that you dispense in this forum is first class. Unbelievably good advice that people get for free. But sometimes the way that you deliver this advice causes offence.

[7by7]

But if you had asked why it took so long and the reply was "We've been too busy chasing up visit applicants who haven't provided all the necessary documents." how would you have felt?

My feeling, based on your, as we're being bunt, regular whinges, is that you'd have still blamed the ECOs!

Visa applications do take a bit of work; not checking that they and the supporting documents are complete is, in my opinion, down to laziness.

What would say it is down to if not that?

It's not difficult, surely, to check that all the documents are there and that they have the relevant name on them!

Unfortunately, there is a growing number of people in the UK who do not accept responsibility for their actions and always seek to blame others for their own mistakes.

[durhamboy]

No I would not blame the ECOs. I don't think that I have ever blamed an ECO in this forum. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong about that. What I would blame is HMG for not providing enough ECOs to deal with the applications whilst charging extortionate amounts for visas.

Regarding the applications themselves. Once again you seem to be judging people on how easy YOU would find the visa process. Yes you would not have a problem because you are an expert. However, most of us are not as expert as you and find filling in lengthy forms and wading through guidelines difficult.

Also, in this particular case, Thaimite admitted to having reading difficulties. So give the guy a break and stop inferring that he is being lazy.

[jethrow]

any one no if there is a way of checking the progress of visa aplications for uk, as there apears to be for australia visa,s at vfs bangkok

[Jip99]

Do we know how long visa applications are taking at the moment.

Standard service, not express.

[Thanet]

I take my hat off to the OP for not giving up, and I'm sure he'll be successful this time if he addresses the reasons for refusal in this second application. Visa requirements are obscure, immigration officials are unpredictable, and sometimes people don't get it right the first time. The important thing is to learn from what went wrong, and reapply in good grace.

I'm sure that the OP and Mrs. Thaimite will be laughing at this whole experience over a pint of fabulous English beer very soon. May the weather be kind to them too.

Edited June 16, 2014 by Thanet

[bobrussell]

I can see no real reason why an ECO should be chasing missing information for a visit visa. The applicant needs to provide the information, if they don't it is pretty straight forward to reapply. A settlement visa is a different matter. the cost is astronomical and the applicant has the right to expect minor inadequacies to be brought to their attention. Major deficiencies are the applicants fault and are likely to result in rejection.

What is not right is the lack of accountability of the ECO. If he or she has made an error then a clear and documented review process should be available to any applicant. This does not mean an opportunity to provide more paperwork that should have been presented in the first place.

Without accountability where is the pressure to get it right in the first place?

There is a world of difference between a poor application and a poor decision! In the former case the applicant pays and latter they should not!

[The Fat Controller]

My current account statement did have my name and address on them, but the savings account, also with Nationwide just had the account number, but as there were transfers between the two, any competent person could correlate the data.

My wife went to VFS 15 May, email saying documents are back 3rd June, but it said you can collect 2 days later.

[7by7]

No I would not blame the ECOs. I don't think that I have ever blamed an ECO in this forum. No doubt you will correct me if I am wrong about that. What I would blame is HMG for not providing enough ECOs to deal with the applications whilst charging extortionate amounts for visas.

I doubt that the average British taxpayer would be happy paying for more ECOs so that visa applicants didn't have to wait very long for their applications to be processed.

I doubt very much that the average British taxpayer would be happy paying for ECOs to chase around after applicants/sponsors who hadn't made sure their application was complete before submitting it.

Many visa and LTR fees are set way above the unit cost of processing the application; I think that is wrong. Though I doubt that the average British taxpayer would agree.

But this thread is about visit applications; and the unit cost of processing those, according to the government, is actually greater than the fee charged!

Regarding the applications themselves. Once again you seem to be judging people on how easy YOU would find the visa process. Yes you would not have a problem because you are an expert. However, most of us are not as expert as you and find filling in lengthy forms and wading through guidelines difficult.

The forms and guidelines, as they have to cover any eventuality, can be complicated and seem confusing to some; which is why some people feel the need to seek advice from agents and forums such as this.

Whatever expertise I have has been gained over the last 14 years. 14 years ago, I had none at all; which is why I used an agent for my wife's settlement application.

Also, in this particular case, Thaimite admitted to having reading difficulties. So give the guy a break and stop inferring that he is being lazy.

I imply; you infer.

In this case, you infer incorrectly; I don't recall implying, directly or indirectly, that he is lazy.

I did make a general comment about some applicants and sponsors laziness; which was in context; and obviously, to all except one with an axe to grind, a general comment and not directed at any one individual.

[thaimite]

To imply that the taxpayer would have spend a large dun to improve the service us obviously a flawed argument. It can easily be seen that the current delay of 3 to 4 eerie to get a visa is due to s backlog nit an overall sgmhortage if staff else this backlog would be rapidly growing.

In addition to imply that the 150$ Cost dies not cover expenses of issuing a visa is dubious. Given the rate ay the applications appear yo br processed ad implied in another post would lead one yo believe that Orbison s very lucrative fee. BUT APART FROM THAT most countries e.g Thailand provide free visas for short visits because visitors and tourists ate a very lucrative form of income and this had yo be taken in to account when assessing the true cost of issuing a visa

sent from my Internet aware non fruity mobile device

Edited June 16, 2014 by thaimite

[thaimite]

Sorry about typos in above post I am trying to use my mobile whilst on the train from Ubon

sent from my Internet aware non fruity mobile device

Edited June 16, 2014 by thaimite

[7by7]

UKVI funding is complicated, but to keep it simple; visa and LTR fees go to cover the entire running cost of UKVI; not just ECOs and IOs. Any shortfall is made up from general taxation.

But the point is moot; try telling the average taxpayer that the government is going to spend more money so that foreigners can get their visas more quickly and see how many are happy!

When I have the time I will look up the last visa fee increase notice from the government, which did compare unit costs and fees.

For most visa and LTR applications the fees are above the unit cost; but for 6 months visit visas they are below.

Many countries, including both Thailand and the UK, have visa free entry for tourists and other visitors of certain nationalities.

All others have to obtain a visa and pay for it.

[theoldgit]

These are the figures 7by7 refers to, I have included the more pertinent ones.

Entry Clearance Visas

1=Unit Cost, 2=2013 rate, 3=2014 rate, 4=% increase

Visit visa short up to 6 months 1-£115, 2-£80, 3-£83, 4-4.0%

Visit visa - long up to 2 years 1-£115, 2-£278,3-£300,4-8.0%

Visit visa - long up to 5 years 1-£115, 2-£511,3-£544,4-6.5%

Visit visa - long up to 10 years1-£115, 2-£737,3-£737,4- 0.0%

Settlement 1-£378, 2,-£851, 3-£885, 4-4.0%

Fees_Table_April_2014.pdf

[thaimite]

Application resubmitted

Cannot apply for accelerated service as this is a first time visa

They indicated we should know in 15 days which would be good as we are due to fly 3 weeks today. Last time they stated 25 days for a response.

Fingers crossed.

sent from my Internet aware non fruity mobile device

Edited June 17, 2014 by thaimite

[jimn]

Best of luck thaimite. Its going to be very tight on time though.Im sure you will get it this time as long as you have followed the advise on the forum especially 7by7 who knows his subject.

[durhamboy]

7 by 7 - you said in response to my post that you should not call the OP lazy - "In this case, you infer incorrectly; I don't recall implying, directly or indirectly, that he is lazy."

Please refer to your posts #36 and #38 where you talk about applicants being lazy. Seeing as this is a very specific topic about the OP's particular visit visa refusal then the inference/implication is there for all see.

Also in the OP's original topic that was closed please refer to your post #80 where you said ".......tales from people like the OP who seek to blame others for their mistakes....."

[7by7]

Durhamboy,

I have already dealt with those points; I don't intend repeating myself.

If thaimite took the remarks personally and was offended I am sure he would have said so by now.

But on the off chance that he did, I apologise to him and assure him that no offence to him was intended.

I see no reason to apologise to you.

[thaimite]

7by7 thank you. The appology is accepted. I know you have done your best to offer good advice and for that I am grateful even if dome of your remarks could have been phrased better. I did my best to follow all the advice of yourself and others and may now he accused of and overly long submission:-)

It is interesting to note that VFS had no interest in even looking at originals that were offered of the documents I gave copies of. I would have thought it would not have taxed their staff too much to state that they had noted the copies were a true representation of originals provided ensuring no come back about the validity of any copy. But then again maybe I am expecting too much.

sent from my Internet aware non fruity mobile device

Edited June 17, 2014 by thaimite

[durhamboy]

Durhamboy,

I have already dealt with those points; I don't intend repeating myself.

If thaimite took the remarks personally and was offended I am sure he would have said so by now.

But on the off chance that he did, I apologise to him and assure him that no offence to him was intended.

I see no reason to apologise to you.

Good that you have apologised 7 by 7. Maybe you will desist from making such personal remarks in future.

For myself, I never asked for, nor expected, an apology from you.

[bobrussell]

Struggling to see why any form of apology is required. It was stated that an applicant might rightly get miffed if his or her application was delayed because the ECO was busy chasing up missing or incomplete paperwork submitted by a lazy applicant.

7by7 is more than capable of defending himself but it is a bit daft to deliberately read a general comment as personal.

I admit the first visitor visa my wife (gf then) was rejected because I made assumptions. Probably was lazy in my approach to the paperwork. It did not happen again, nor was a further visa application rejected!

[jimn]

Struggling to see why any form of apology is required. It was stated that an applicant might rightly get miffed if his or her application was delayed because the ECO was busy chasing up missing or incomplete paperwork submitted by a lazy applicant.

7by7 is more than capable of defending himself but it is a bit daft to deliberately read a general comment as personal.

I admit the first visitor visa my wife (gf then) was rejected because I made assumptions. Probably was lazy in my approach to the paperwork. It did not happen again, nor was a further visa application rejected!

Agreed

Durhamboy why don't you take your beef with 7by7 offline and deal with it by PM. 7by7 puts a lot and time and thought in trying to help people like the OP, if you don't like his style then as long as its not directed at you then what,s the problem. I would hate to see someone like him driven away and not bothering to help. Let it be and lets move on.

[theoldgit]

OK, please let's stop the bickering, draw a line and move on.

People come to this forum for advice and guidance, something we have done successfully for a number of years, so let's not spoil it for those we are here to help.

Thanks.

[thaimite]

Agreed. As the OP and people seem to think the adverse comments made at me, let it drop. I have already accountpted 7by7s appology earlier and know he means well.

sent from my Internet aware non fruity mobile device

Edited June 18, 2014 by thaimite

[wooloomooloo]

Any progress with your wife's application, thaimite?