Once A Maid, Always A Maid?

[Michael W]

There has been some discussion in other threads about how strong the class structure is in Thailand which got me thinking about how easy it is to jump to a higher class or more specifically to advance to a higher job position. As an example, let's say a large hotel (500+ rooms) hires a girl as a maid, one I imagine of a staff of dozens. Now if this girl, while of comparable formal education to the other maids happens to be noticeably (in a good way) more clever and unlike any single other one of the maids happens to speak English (and at a serviceable level at that), would her ambition allow her to advance not only to being head maid but possibly to a front desk position because of her language skills, or would the overriding Thai culture tend much more strongly to keep her as a maid? How tolerant are Thais to ambitiousness? Is it at all admired or respected, or seen much more as disruptive and 'not knowing your place'?

[GuestHouse]

Odd that you should choose a hotel as a case.

A few years back a letter was published in the BKK Post in which a Thai graduate of a European University described his experiences as an employee of one of the very well known top end BKK Hotels.

He described how he had been appointed in a lower post than a fellow graduate of his university (Same class), despite he himself having graduated with the University’s award for best student on the course, despite having received the top grade and despite the other student who was employed in a senior position (and rising) having barely passed the course.

A few days later the personnel manager of the hotel replied. What he said was telling. They noted the qualifications of the letter writer during his interview, but also noted that he was from a poor background and were not able to reconcile his background with having attended one of the most prestigious universities in Europe. He went on to say, that while the other candidate had lower grades there was no doubt over his access to the university.

But it did not end there.

A few days later, the director of the NGO that had sponsored the poor student to attend the university wrote to outline the history of the student. He had been spotted as an extremely bright student by a teacher working for the NGO at the student’s up-country school. The NGO had provided the student with a scholarship, including language training and sent him to sit the university entrance exams. He passed entry and later graduated as the top student, reaffirming their faith in his abilities.

There, then, it would seem is your answer.

[Ulysses G.]

VERY interesting thread!

[chownah]

GuestHouse,

Maybe I'm having a thick day but I don't see how your post contains an answer. Can you explain?

Chownah

[taxexile]

would a maid , whether she could speak english or not , ever want a front of house post ?

i think if a person from a "maids background" were to be promoted to say , a front of house position , it would greatly upset the social equilibrium that exists behind that front of house desk , where the f.o.h. staff have all come from the same educational , and therefore social background.

it would not feel right ,either for the maid , or for the f.o.h. staff.

i think qualifications and background play a greater part in choosing staff than the actual ability of the person. even if that person had "bought" their qualification ( and very few people actually fail to get a degree nowadays) , the fact that they possess that qualification is all that counts.

i think , once a maid , always a maid , sadly , says it all.

Edited June 21, 2006 by taxexile

[britmaveric]

I'd assume thats the case - least in the service industry. Maid being at the front desk? Not at the same hotel that one can guarenteed!!!

[meadish_sweetball]

The question is so hypothetical it is impossible to answer conclusively.

I'd say anything is possible, despite the class system - but it would be fairly unlikely. When hiring for Front Desk and Sales, a rather high importance is placed upon looks.

[Boo]

if we are talking specifically about Thailand then I think it would be hard for someone to break out of the mould that they have been put in from an early age esp if it is low scale (paid, uneducated, menial work etc)

[OZONE]

In Thailand, the Maid could have a Master degree, speak perfect english and not progress more than a head maid if she was ugly. This is one of the major negativity about Thailand. In other word, it could have zero to do with class but everything focused on apperance. Intelligent people will always take a back seat to the beatiful ones in the land of LOS.

[English Noodles]

Intelligent people will always take a back seat to the beatiful ones in the land of LOS.

Oh how right you are, i mean can you just imagine where the good Dr Thaksin would be if he had not been gifted with such good looks?

[qualtrough]

Let me share a story that I think is peripherally related to this topic.

I had a friend who dated a Thai girl who had lived in the UK with family and attended school there. She was attractive, intelligent, personable, and spoke fluent and delightful English. Unfortunately she had not obtained her degree in the UK and had no degree from Thailand, and could not find any decent job other than lowly sales positions.

[OZONE]

Intelligent people will always take a back seat to the beatiful ones in the land of LOS.

Oh how right you are, i mean can you just imagine where the good Dr Thaksin would be if he had not been gifted with such good looks?

Very good point. And on that note I'll retract my last posts

[English Noodles]

[GuestHouse]

GuestHouse,

Maybe I'm having a thick day but I don't see how your post contains an answer. Can you explain?

Chownah

Come back and read it again tomorrow.

[kerryk]

Odd that you should choose a hotel as a case.

A few years back a letter was published in the BKK Post in which a Thai graduate of a European University described his experiences as an employee of one of the very well known top end BKK Hotels.

He described how he had been appointed in a lower post than a fellow graduate of his university (Same class), despite he himself having graduated with the University’s award for best student on the course, despite having received the top grade and despite the other student who was employed in a senior position (and rising) having barely passed the course.

A few days later the personnel manager of the hotel replied. What he said was telling. They noted the qualifications of the letter writer during his interview, but also noted that he was from a poor background and were not able to reconcile his background with having attended one of the most prestigious universities in Europe. He went on to say, that while the other candidate had lower grades there was no doubt over his access to the university.

But it did not end there.

A few days later, the director of the NGO that had sponsored the poor student to attend the university wrote to outline the history of the student. He had been spotted as an extremely bright student by a teacher working for the NGO at the student’s up-country school. The NGO had provided the student with a scholarship, including language training and sent him to sit the university entrance exams. He passed entry and later graduated as the top student, reaffirming their faith in his abilities.

There, then, it would seem is your answer.

I am having a hard time understanding how it explains it too. What happened after the director of the NGO wrote the hotel?

[Gumballl]

Along as discrimination of age, sex, marital status, etc. are permitted in LOS, who will ever know whether a "low-class" person can succeed. Personally I believe that it is possible for the entrepreneur to succeed, but for one working for someone else, very unlikely.

Imagine the most skilled engineer in a company not getting rewarded for their efforts. This person decides to look for a new job, but alas they cannot because they have reached that magical age of 30, and nobody wants to hire them at such an "old" age.

How about a man who wants to be a nurse? How about about a woman that wants to be a police officer? (yes, these exists, but very, very few).

Edited June 21, 2006 by Gumballl

[OldSarge]

Odd that you should choose a hotel as a case.

A few years back a letter was published in the BKK Post in which a Thai graduate of a European University described his experiences as an employee of one of the very well known top end BKK Hotels.

He described how he had been appointed in a lower post than a fellow graduate of his university (Same class), despite he himself having graduated with the University’s award for best student on the course, despite having received the top grade and despite the other student who was employed in a senior position (and rising) having barely passed the course.

A few days later the personnel manager of the hotel replied. What he said was telling. They noted the qualifications of the letter writer during his interview, but also noted that he was from a poor background and were not able to reconcile his background with having attended one of the most prestigious universities in Europe. He went on to say, that while the other candidate had lower grades there was no doubt over his access to the university.

But it did not end there.

A few days later, the director of the NGO that had sponsored the poor student to attend the university wrote to outline the history of the student. He had been spotted as an extremely bright student by a teacher working for the NGO at the student’s up-country school. The NGO had provided the student with a scholarship, including language training and sent him to sit the university entrance exams. He passed entry and later graduated as the top student, reaffirming their faith in his abilities.

There, then, it would seem is your answer.

I am having a hard time understanding how it explains it too. What happened after the director of the NGO wrote the hotel?

Why absolutely nothing happened. That is the "punch line", the explanation. Even though the young man actually had genuine credentials and had done better at university than the young man from a background more consistent with "...having attended one of the most prestigious universities in Europe", the young man from the "hi-so" background got the better job. Why? His social standing was more important to the employer than was his university academic standing. The answer is implicit in the hotel personnel manager's reply making reference to the poorer young man's background.

In the "for what it's worth" category, I was denied admittance to the U.S. Military Academy Prep School - a long time ago, I admit - on substantially the same criteria: social class. I mention that to address in advance the tendency of non-Thais to judge Thai practices harshly, without realizing or perhaps knowing that nearly identical practices were common in America within living memory(and probably still are in most of Europe).

[thaigene2]

I agree with old Sarge..

Thailand doesn't have a monopoly on this. It is the same in the UK too..in fact the British may well have perfected discrimination by pedigree.

The BBC, about 10 years ago, reported that fewer than 10% of British parents sent their kids to Private Schools - yet those kids made up 70% of University entrants. In other words, even though 90% of the kids went to state-run high schools they only accounted for 30% of University students (or less, since I'm not sure if they counted foreign students in the Universities in the calculation).

Then there was an infamous story about five years ago, where a girl from the North of England with straight 'A's in all academic subjects was denied a place at Oxford or Cambridge - can't remember which one. She didn't pass 'the interview' stage - it was alleged - because of her northern accent (in the UK, private schools make a point of teaching the kids to sound 'posh' so that there is an immediate distinction when someone opens their mouth at a job/university interview). These young people then go on to get all the best jobs.

Of course this then means that the UK and Thailand aren't fully exploiting the talents of their young people - because they virtually ignore 70-90% of the bright people.

The result? These are societies that work well below their potential..and why the UK for example always seems to be 14th in all the international league tables from productiveness to standard of living, etc. - even though it is one of the seven most powerful economies on earth.

Same-same for Thailand I'm afraid as long as this artificial class division between rich hi-so's and the rest of Thais exists. Your daddy can be the richest guy in the world and you can attend the best universities in the world (probably with lots of tutors and a bit of cash to get others to write your assignments and dissertation) but it won't increase your IQ!

[thohts]

In Thailand, the Maid could have a Master degree, speak perfect english and not progress more than a head maid if she was ugly. This is one of the major negativity about Thailand. In other word, it could have zero to do with class but everything focused on apperance. Intelligent people will always take a back seat to the beatiful ones in the land of LOS.

...which is one of the reasons why customer service here is so lacking and the country will stay poor until it changes those ways. Looks (light skin, etc.) and family connections has a lot more to do with obtaining sought-after positions than does merit or actual intelligence. Just fly Thai Airways if you're not sure!

[tourleadersi]

Same-same for Thailand I'm afraid as long as this artificial class division between rich hi-so's and the rest of Thais exists. Your daddy can be the richest guy in the world and you can attend the best universities in the world (probably with lots of tutors and a bit of cash to get others to write your assignments and dissertation) but it won't increase your IQ!

George W Bush is a prime example of how well you can do if you're 'connected'. His previous track record doesn't read well, yet he made it to the White House for 2 terms!

[thohts]

In the "for what it's worth" category, I was denied admittance to the U.S. Military Academy Prep School - a long time ago, I admit - on substantially the same criteria: social class. I mention that to address in advance the tendency of non-Thais to judge Thai practices harshly, without realizing or perhaps knowing that nearly identical practices were common in America within living memory(and probably still are in most of Europe).

yes.. it happens everywhere to be sure. However, it is VERY pronounced here in Thailand.

There is next to no way someone from a poor background and little education beyond grade school could become successful in Thailand. Those people are "kept in their place"

However, it is very possible in the US *if* the person works hard to be successful.

Negative thinking in society hurts ambition and morale.

[Jai Dee]

Can we please leave US politics out of this thread and keep it Thailand-related?

[Misplaced]

In Thailand, the Maid could have a Master degree, speak perfect english and not progress more than a head maid if she was ugly. This is one of the major negativity about Thailand. In other word, it could have zero to do with class but everything focused on apperance. Intelligent people will always take a back seat to the beatiful ones in the land of LOS.

...which is one of the reasons why customer service here is so lacking and the country will stay poor until it changes those ways. Looks (light skin, etc.) and family connections has a lot more to do with obtaining sought-after positions than does merit or actual intelligence. Just fly Thai Airways if you're not sure!

What are you talking about, whats wrong with Thai airways? I've recently flown Thai airways and find it to have excellent service. We were greeted with a big smile, a wai and continual terrific service throughout our long flight. Of all the airline we've flown so far, Thai airways is my favorite. My only complaint about Thai airway is the food, but than again, we can say the same thing about all other airlines

[tourleadersi]

A good frien of mine is going out with a girl who worked her way up in a company. Seems she started out as a maid in a well known hotel with limited English skills. Through hard graft and night school she worked her way up to a point that when she left the hotel some 7 years later she was running front of house. A success story indeed but possibly a rareity....

[tourleadersi]

In Thailand, the Maid could have a Master degree, speak perfect english and not progress more than a head maid if she was ugly. This is one of the major negativity about Thailand. In other word, it could have zero to do with class but everything focused on apperance. Intelligent people will always take a back seat to the beatiful ones in the land of LOS.

...which is one of the reasons why customer service here is so lacking and the country will stay poor until it changes those ways. Looks (light skin, etc.) and family connections has a lot more to do with obtaining sought-after positions than does merit or actual intelligence. Just fly Thai Airways if you're not sure!

What are you talking about, whats wrong with Thai airways? I've recently flown Thai airways and find it to have excellent service. We were greeted with a big smile, a wai and continual terrific service throughout our long flight. Of all the airline we've flown so far, Thai airways is my favorite. My only complaint about Thai airway is the food, but than again, we can say the same thing about all other airlines

I think Thohts was referrring to Thai Airways staff getting their jobs because of their appearance and 'connections' as opposed to the lack of service on the airline?

[bluetooth.th]

if we are talking specifically about Thailand then I think it would be hard for someone to break out of the mould that they have been put in from an early age esp if it is low scale

Unfortunate but true I think that Boo hit the nail on the head

[tourleadersi]

Can we please leave US politics out of this thread and keep it Thailand-related?

Sorry boss, I was just trying to highlight that it can and does happen all over the world. Lesson learned.

[Johpa]

The question is so hypothetical it is impossible to answer conclusively.

I'd say anything is possible, despite the class system - but it would be fairly unlikely. When hiring for Front Desk and Sales, a rather high importance is placed upon looks.

Much social baggage is taken into consideration in hiring practices in Thailand. Looks are definitely a factor, especially for women. It is also important that the woman be single. Many employers are not interested in married women. This is not such a large factor in menial labor jobs such as hotel maids. But it is important in sales and front office jobs as sexual favors are still very much part of the equation.

Speech is important. It is a big plus to have central Thai be your native tongue and not speak Central Thai with the slight accent of say Isaan or Kham Muang.

If you are in a position to be handling money it really helps to be Sino-Thai. Many years ago the banks only hired Sino Thais. This may have changed a bit, but don't expect some gifted university grad from Isaan whose family is still poor mubaan farmers to be given a job in a bank.

Remember that Thailand is still very much struggling with the concept of a meritocracy where one is promoted based upon ones efforts. Top schools, whether primary, secondary, or colleges, often accept students based upon money paid. Jobs in the bureacracy are often bought and this need to purchase a promotion is one reason that promotes the endemic corruption.

Nothing is universal and there are always counter examples. I have seen some positive changes over the years, but it is a slow change.

[Heng]

For maids outside of the hotel industry, that is house/home maids... in my experience there is rarely any upward social movement within one lifetime, but you'll see it across generations and sometimes there will be a retirement type upward movement after decades of service (for instance, my grandparents house servants' children are now electronics knick knacks merchants, starting from selling noodles in front of our old family home in Ban Moh). Often those who employ them will also pay for the education of the maids' children. These kids sometimes, but not always take advantage of this opportunity and run with the ball.

Upward movement is definitely there though, that's why it's difficult to find Thai-Thai maids nowadays.

On the entrepreneurial side, you'll find plenty of folks "moving up" like George and Wheezy in one generation, and often in much less time as well.

[ProfessorFart]

The bottom line is that although the class/social barriers are seldom broken, they can be.

It could be a case of 'right time, right place' or even through sheer doggedness and hard work, however the fact remains that people do cross social barriers in Thailand.

On a point of institutions, such as hotels, shops etc I agree that it must be virtually impossible yet I know of two small hotels where maids have graduated to front of house.