thaigene2 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Socialist farangs should stop trying to start a class war in Thailand.Sorry, but not everyone is born with equal intelligence. [...] The truly brilliant will make money no matter what. You are losing your own argument here. You're right..everyone is NOT born with equal intelligence. Intelligence isn't something you learn like maths or history. It's exactly the opposite. It's the ability to use logic and reasoning powers. So you can be rich, ox-bridge educated, and still an idiot but running a big company in the UK..and here too probably. A class war? I see...so suggesting that the best and brightest should be the ones who are given access to the best education, regardless of their family's wealth is...er...Socialist is it? Denying the brightest have-nots (who by shear numbers will dwarf the bright rich kids) is what really holds back an economy, Thaible..this has been the achilles heal of the UK for decades. And Richard - I agree with you that the grammar schools probably were better than then comprehensives..but it was good to ditch rote learning..too bad as Egon says that rote learning is being promoted in the UK Private Schools. I'm beginning to think that the real entrance exams should be IQ tests.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Cleary Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Socialist farangs should stop trying to start a class war in Thailand.The truly brilliant will make money no matter what. There is no need to start something when it already exists! Ok, i wouldn't go as far as using the word 'war', but more often than not, those born within the under-class in Thailand, even if they have the inate potential, are not going to make money no matter what. I'm not sure how other members feel, but i feel it only fair that if a foriegner who on living in Thailand for more than decade - married with a family, also be allowed to have say on class structure and discuss on ways to improve it. Immigrants to western countries, are certainly permitted to have their say on how their adopted homeland is run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaible Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Socialist farangs should stop trying to start a class war in Thailand. The truly brilliant will make money no matter what. There is no need to start something when it already exists! Ok, i wouldn't go as far as using the word 'war', but more often than not, those born within the under-class in Thailand, even if they have the inate potential, are not going to make money no matter what. Thanks for proving my point - you are trying to start a class war. It takes very little money to start a business in Thailand, and everyone here knows someone rich since we're all inherently related. That is the fairest you can ask for. However, you sound like you want to start a communist society, or at least a socialist one, where we give welfare to the lazy. Please go home before you start more trouble. The last thing Thailand needs is another Killing Fields via some communist revolutionaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thohts Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 It takes very little money to start a business in Thailand Uh... sure. I guess that's relative, isn't it? [snip...]Please go home before you start more trouble. The last thing Thailand needs is another Killing Fields via some communist revolutionaries. Many of us here are already home. But you already knew that. It would seem that the only one here who is trying to 'start something' is you. Most of us seem to be engaging in meaningful discussion, not wanting to start a conflict (or a "class war", as you call it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skippybangkok Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Can move up. I had a secretary who was a GRO in a hotel, she started out as a "pool" girl ( collecting towels at the pool ). She completed her highschool, diploma, bachelor and recently her masters. She works in another company in a sales position and has no problem with "class" as she has proved her worth. She is very detirmined (and still single and looking ! ), and has just bought her first apartment in Bangkok. There will always be those who look down, but she is a very good example that you can be poor, and still make something out of your life ( bars are not the only option for poor people, but they are easy ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordWill Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 It takes very little money to start a business in Thailand, and everyone here knows someone rich since we're all inherently related. That is the fairest you can ask for. Said like a true hi-so Thai / Thai-chinese! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pakboong Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 In order to have a middle class, there are only 2 essential ingredients: The Rich and the Poor. The middle class takes it upon itself to manage keeping the Poor in "their Place". Recent political happenings suggest things are right on track. Thialand's mere existence depends largely upon status quo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xyz Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 There has been some discussion in other threads about how strong the class structure is in Thailand which got me thinking about how easy it is to jump to a higher class or more specifically to advance to a higher job position. As an example, let's say a large hotel (500+ rooms) hires a girl as a maid, one I imagine of a staff of dozens. Now if this girl, while of comparable formal education to the other maids happens to be noticeably (in a good way) more clever and unlike any single other one of the maids happens to speak English (and at a serviceable level at that), would her ambition allow her to advance not only to being head maid but possibly to a front desk position because of her language skills, or would the overriding Thai culture tend much more strongly to keep her as a maid? How tolerant are Thais to ambitiousness? Is it at all admired or respected, or seen much more as disruptive and 'not knowing your place'? In order to stay competitive with other nations, a nation has to promote the best qualified, not based on what class you were born in but on your ability and character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 It takes very little money to start a business in Thailand, and everyone here knows someone rich since we're all inherently related. That is the fairest you can ask for. Said like a true hi-so Thai / Thai-chinese! go back and read his first few pages of history on T.V. .... farang? Thai? who knows ... simply troll ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britmaveric Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 OxfordWill is no troll!! Pretty nice young lad actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 I was speaking to O.W. re: Thaible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaible Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 (edited) It takes very little money to start a business in Thailand, and everyone here knows someone rich since we're all inherently related. That is the fairest you can ask for. Said like a true hi-so Thai / Thai-chinese! go back and read his first few pages of history on T.V. .... farang? Thai? who knows ... simply troll ...... Everything I say is true, and you're scared to find out what Thailand is really like. But feel free to call any Thai that knows English a troll if that is the most intelligent response your mind is able to produce, and if you think Thais are really too stupid to learn English. If you're insulted by me saying that there is upward mobility in Thailand, I'd hate to see what kind of life you lead. Edited June 28, 2006 by Thaible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted June 28, 2006 Share Posted June 28, 2006 (edited) http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=699311 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=699211 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=708591 http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...ndpost&p=704194 I'm Thai ... no a farang ... no a 'falang' Is this guy even posting from Thailand? Edited June 28, 2006 by jdinasia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 It is going to be interesting to see the 'baby-boomers' retire, and some of them who have had lasting marriages to Thai wives come to retire in Thailand. Where will the Thais fit in to the 'pecking order' the well-off high-ability-but-no-schooling-farm-girl who, thirty years ago, married a farang and went with him to the West? She may have had quite a high-level job, seen the children through university, and so on. Kipling said that East was East and West was West and ne'er the twain would meet. But globalisation is forcing some meeting. And some of it will come in unexpected ways. I have an interest in Future Studies (i.e. constructing possible scenarios---social-science fiction, if you like). Given a bit of time, I think I could construct one in which Thailand in 2026 has a 'mia farang' Prime Minister, born into the Isaan peasantry, and whose only formal schooling was a few years of classes run by the monks at the village temple. We live in interesting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted June 29, 2006 Share Posted June 29, 2006 It is going to be interesting to see the 'baby-boomers' retire, and some of them who have had lasting marriages to Thai wives come to retire in Thailand.Where will the Thais fit in to the 'pecking order' the well-off high-ability-but-no-schooling-farm-girl who, thirty years ago, married a farang and went with him to the West? We live in interesting times. We certainly do. But these gals and guys, the ex-bar worker/prostitute, and often just regular "high ability but no schooling type" that you mention coming back to Thailand (and well off... and often not so well off) aren't a new happening. They fit wherever they happen to fall in just like everyone else here. Some successfully erase their past histories with a little creativity and some never escape their pasts. Two that come to mind... 1) case one: came back with her falang husband, in her 60's (unclear if she was a prostitute or not), set up a custom jewelry factory.... took orders (at "hiso" hotel parties all around town, marketed herself as an overseas student who lucked upon marrying a whale), and ended up trying to take off with the down payments for the later orders once she had established a customer base. All over the course of 3-4 years. Not sure if the law finally tracked her down or not, this was a rather hot topic about 2 years ago. 2) case two: just a regular old lady, also in her 60's (so these gals were in the game way back in the 60's and 70's). She sells pork at the morning market in Pattaya. Just does her market vendor thing day in - day out, very low profile. But quite well to do. Real estate assets all over Chonburi, but everyone just introduces her (even her own relatives) as a former prostitute who moved back from Germany about 20 years ago, now "just" a market merchant. All she does is sell pork every single day, yet people still feel the need to provide that little 20 year old news caption everytime she walks in the room and is introduced to someone who doesn't know her. And it's not meant in a vicious way. It's just spoken as a matter of fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OxfordWill Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Thanks brit and jd. Thaible - there isn't anything special about you, if you are a Thai as you claim to be. I know dozens of Thai people living in England who speak, read and write perfect English. Some of them even have two english degrees! You might be interested to hear that they do not all share your opinion. When discussing this issue and similar issues with them, I am often told that for the 'average Thai' there simply is very little hope of any social mobility under the current socio-economic climate in Thailand. Who is right? I don't know - but to proclaim either opinion as true would be, I think, a mistake. It is surely a matter of degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postie Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 (edited) Ever been to a Thai Masonic Lodge? Controlling forces are part of every society. There are BKK clubs for wealthy women to pick up young studs. There are dokmai for the old men to sniff. Yes, Siree!...Individuals-when given the chance...Will be slave to their hormones and "What they feel safe with." Jobs for the boys...Every village/city/countryworld. Yes. It is easy for a foreigner to recognise glaring "matters for concern". Just as Thais are STAGGERED that the British cannot realign their (ancient, liberating) laws to combat those who threaten the country's wellbeing. ...Hang On! What's this old lamp? A bit filthy...Let's give it a rub. WHAAATT! (Clouds of purple smoke) "My (Farang) Master. I have been in that accursed (Isaan) lamp since the Ban Chiang people shut up shop! My happiness is boundless...Ask me three wishes...and they will be yours." (Well apart from a couple of Khorat cats...) It HAS to be money and sha@@ing. 1."My house has three wings, Genie. I want it wallpapered in 1000 Baht notes. When I peel one off, another one grows. 2. And please provide the most curvaceous, blonde, blue/green eyed nyphomaniac young lady for my eternal pleasure." And your final wish, My Lord? Well the notes are fluttering everywhere. The scent between Ingrid's thighs is up my nose and in my ears etc...As the sodden linen sheet is dragged from my glowing back....A flicker darts across the vaulted ceiling. I take an almighty sniff of what is to follow...and parachutist roll across the bed to the garden window. /Edit: Racist comments removed by moderator Any more of that and you will loose your account Edited July 3, 2006 by Wolfie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postie Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 Oops! Got hung twice at the end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Excellent, 'postie'. Actually, I think the repetition of the last line adds some 'chant' to it. It is a homily that could be used in contributions to many topics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 I have seen advancement a few times. I'll go through two cases. The first one is pretty much a case of the question posed here. First a young woman from a poor family in a very small farming village who left school with P6. On leaving school she hit the glue and ignored the fields, and did occaisional work until about 15. Then she ran off to Bangkok and got a job as a maid in a small Chinese Thai hotel and dropped the glue. She quickly graduated to the front desk because she had rapidly learned English, and proved responsible with money. She was by the time 18 running all the other staff and had set up a small vending business in her free time. Now ten years later she is happily married to a middle class Thai professional from a town based middle class family. She does not work now although she is a bit of a political activist now. All of this was also achieved by a short, dark skinned uneducated Thai woman who Thai people tell me is unattractive. The second case concerns a guy from an Isaan farming community who I used to know. He again left school with P6 and came to Bangkok when he was 15 or 16. He got a job as a security guard. With the money he earned he put himself through education to M3. Then college. Then University. He also attended an English school. At the end of this with a business degree of some kind he was able to get a job in the office of a Japanese company. I have since lost contact with this guy, so dont know what he is doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Oxford and Cambridge have long complained that 'A' levels are not discriminating enough. I remember one of the dons telling me that entrance examination papers were marked impressionistically - precise, mechanical marking was reserved for 'scholarship' candidates, where marking had to be 'fair'. For the others, the examination was effectively a continuation of the interview. Richard As mentioned the BBC story was a good 8 to 10 years ago..could be wrong. But I doubt it mate.. as for your quote above..I rest my case 'guv'..your 'don' is almost certainly correct - enjoy your success Tim. Do you even dare to suggest that most Brits are simply out of the running not by lack of IQ but through lack of pedigree?? Do you dare, sir? As someone very familiar with the Oxbridge recruitment process, I can tell you that you are completely wrong.The procedure is certainly elitist and reflects the desire to recruit the best sixth formers in the country.I can assure you also that there is a wide spread belief in England's leading public schools that the Oxbridge recruitment system is biased against independently educated applicants.To some extent this is true in that when presented with an equally qualified independently educated and state educated pupil, most colleges will take the state educated one. Having said that I think it is true many state educated sixth formers are put off by the Woosterish/Brideshead reputation of Oxbridge.This is a pity and both schools and Oxbridge need to work harder to dispel this myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Is it "the Woosterish/Brideshead reputation of Oxbridge" that puts off many of the very best? Or the fact that they see Cambridge and Oxford Universities as inappropriate places to spend those three undergraduate years? I could have gone to Cambridge, to my Dad's old college, and Mother wanted me to do so. But Dad quite understood when I told him "No way. You went there, and consequently I have been able to learn about all that is wrong with that place". My younger sister went to Oxford and came back with a 'Good Honours' degree----but still as gormless as ever. Eight years after refusing to go to Cambridge, I did go there, to a Lectureship, on the reality side of Parker's Piece at the College of Technology. Some of my HNC and IEEPartIII students were high-flying technicians at the Cavendish and Trumpington Road. Some of the disparaging tales they told gave Tom Sharpe extra material! (My only claim to academic fame is to have borne the cross of being Wilt's shop steward!!---and saved his job for him, despite my inclinations.) I think those very best state-school students are wise to leave Oxbridge to the overseas students and those Brits who feel they will need the prestige. Each undergraduate can find something better somewhere else (often being tutored by Oxbridge graduates who aspire to serve up something better than they were served with themselves). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Ever been to a Thai Masonic Lodge? Have you? Certainly the passwords and tokens are not different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Is it "the Woosterish/Brideshead reputation of Oxbridge" that puts off many of the very best?Or the fact that they see Cambridge and Oxford Universities as inappropriate places to spend those three undergraduate years? I could have gone to Cambridge, to my Dad's old college, and Mother wanted me to do so. But Dad quite understood when I told him "No way. You went there, and consequently I have been able to learn about all that is wrong with that place". My younger sister went to Oxford and came back with a 'Good Honours' degree----but still as gormless as ever. Eight years after refusing to go to Cambridge, I did go there, to a Lectureship, on the reality side of Parker's Piece at the College of Technology. Some of my HNC and IEEPartIII students were high-flying technicians at the Cavendish and Trumpington Road. Some of the disparaging tales they told gave Tom Sharpe extra material! (My only claim to academic fame is to have borne the cross of being Wilt's shop steward!!---and saved his job for him, despite my inclinations.) I think those very best state-school students are wise to leave Oxbridge to the overseas students and those Brits who feel they will need the prestige. Each undergraduate can find something better somewhere else (often being tutored by Oxbridge graduates who aspire to serve up something better than they were served with themselves). Oh dear this is fairly typical of the bitterness that seems to affect many Oxbridge rejects.The remarks are sadly muddled and ignorant.Some facts to bring the situation into perspective. 1.Oxford and Cambridge are always included in any list of the world's best universities.In other words they are universities of the vey highest quality and to deny this is sheer ignorance, or in some cases. prejudice.In the UK there are other great universities -UCL, Bristol, Edinburgh etc and in a few cases their departmental strengths are greater than their equivalents.But overall - quality of students and academics, facilities, research, networks etc there is no question Oxbridge is best. 2.Most Oxbridge students are state educated and from ordinary homes.Independent schools are nevertheless over represented and this is partly the result of the destruction of the grammar schools which until the 1960's provided a way to high achievement for bright working class girls and boys. 3,Some clever state school children are put off by the, I think quite false, Brideshead image of Oxbridge.Nevertheless the reality is Oxbridge still attracts a high proportion of the brightest state educated children.Contrary to what some think the driving force behind Oxbridge admissions is to attract the best and brightest from whatever source.There is no interest in being a privileged bastion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Despite reading it carefully three times, I fail to see the relevance of post #84 to what I posted in post #82. However, we are far off the topic (which is social mobility in Thailand), so I am going to restrain myself from replying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorFart Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Boris! You're back! Thought I recognised that Oxbridge standard of punctuation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boon Mee Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Despite reading it carefully three times, I fail to see the relevance of post #84 to what I posted in post #82.However, we are far off the topic (which is social mobility in Thailand), so I am going to restrain myself from replying. I'm curious if anyone knows about post #83? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Hmmm ah hel_l My partner's story just doesn't work in this thread ... came from a fortunate background and does extremely well ... jeeze ... We all know that engineering grads from KMITL are better than those from BU (academically) yet he's the boss .... oh well Could be the years of English and the softspoken direct manners (for sales) and the idea of delivering what was said when it was promised who knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Postie Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 To Moderator Wolfie. Thank you for the edit on post 77. I am surprised it got through the system at all. The whole slant of the joke...with it's bl*ck reference...Is an example of ethnic jealousy, control and eventually- extermination. It shows "the ranks" hold many who will step foward to "stop The Others".Whoever They are determined to be. WE, the Farang, are the Underclass. Unless you manage to gain Thai citizenship! (Rung No.1) In Thailand. The quasi religious witch hunters and the (male) sudopriesthoods. The Freemasonry and it's alternative tentacles (KKK) bore relevance to the opening line....being... "Have you been to a Thai Masonic Lodge?' CONTROL was the theme of the post AND forum topic. IRONY was the barb in the "Joke". Much of the TV site carries (unedited) waves of institutionalised racism and sexism (Do you Moderators not agree?) I entered my first post on this site- DEFENDING A THAI NATIONAL (NEIGHBOUR) WHO HAD BEEN CASTIGATED...TRIED...AND IF THE WILD CARDS (in their dreams) HAD THEIR WAY...LYNCHED. By Thai Visa members! To- Boon Mee With the Thai Flag as their avatar... Is interested in (or is in) Thai Freemasonry. Mark who was killed . (Briton stabbed to death by etc...) had married into the household- BOON MEE. I stand shoulder to shoulder with anyone who has the shit thrown their way. The example of past United States fascism cum racism was probably too acute to be "ON THE SITE' ...I share your concerns...Of derogatory remarks (Close the SITE) But in the instance of thr "joke". The white man has BECOME perceived as bl*ck. The joke is on the white man! Much as happens "Here" (LOS) Masonry? Secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdinasia Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Postie ... can you TRY to post in coherant paragraphs and sentences please .. this stream of consciousness writing is difficult to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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