Once A Maid, Always A Maid?

[h90]

in my company one motorbike delivery guy got promoted to sales person, and another went from motorbike to administrate the office. (not from me)

To my surprise both were 100 % thais.

Normaly here everyone above the lowest level is either chinese/half chinese or from the south of thailand.

I think most would have a problem with someone speaking isaan. That might be a problem in culture.

The southies told me they would never work under an Issan boss, before they do that they resign and go back to their families rubber farm.

The fat chinese CNC operator does not accept orders from anyone, beside writen production orders or if I tell him something (what I rarely do). He is praying and kissing to "his" machine, but he does not care what the manager is telling him.

[GuestHouse]

Another Perspective On This

An individual can be held back from promotion/responsibility for being Thai – It often happens when they are working with Farangs.

I know a number of Expats working in Thailand who, at every opportunity will launch into a diatribe on the uselessness, unreliability, untrustworthiness of the Thais they work with and how those same Thais are totally unable to complete any task without the careful and constant monitoring of Johnny Farang.

Dig a little deeper and ask Johnny Farang why he came to Thailand and he’ll tell you he was sent by his employers to help train Thais in the company business.

The question that it is he, Johnny Farang, who has failed seems to not arise.

[SMEG]

in my company one motorbike delivery guy got promoted to sales person, and another went from motorbike to administrate the office. (not from me)

To my surprise both were 100 % thais.

Normaly here everyone above the lowest level is either chinese/half chinese or from the south of thailand.

I think most would have a problem with someone speaking isaan. That might be a problem in culture.

The southies told me they would never work under an Issan boss, before they do that they resign and go back to their families rubber farm.

The fat chinese CNC operator does not accept orders from anyone, beside writen production orders or if I tell him something (what I rarely do). He is praying and kissing to "his" machine, but he does not care what the manager is telling him.

Well, where do the Farangs stand within that hirarchie?

[chownah]

I think that moving up within an organization can be difficult for many reasons other than class and is not a very good measure of maintenance of overall societal class distinction. A better measure of overall societal class distinction perhaps is whether the offspring of a poor Isaan farmer could have a career in a more respected profession if they were able to obtain the education required.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

I think that moving up within an organization can be difficult for many reasons other than class and is not a very good measure of maintenance of overall societal class distinction. A better measure of overall societal class distinction perhaps is whether the offspring of a poor Isaan farmer could have a career in a more respected profession if they were able to obtain the education required.

I think that this is a very interesting discussion. In the next 10 - 20 years you will be able to see a change as more and more people (in Issan too) are putting their children to university.

[Stephen Cleary]

One of the most important factors governing Thailand’s class system is quite obviously – Thailand’s fascination for certificates and qualifications. Anyone who has been in an urban middle class house would have seen how proudly Thais display photos from their graduation days for all to see.

Pick up a copy of The Nation classifieds section and you will hardly come across any job vacancy which doesn’t ask for at least a degree. Unlike in Europe for example, where experience or past performance can be as important as a degree – here in Thailand it is everything. Unless you have a degree in Thailand you aren’t going to prosper in the world of employment. My God, you even need a darned degree to become a politician!

This is where rural folks suffer most when coming to work in the big cities.

Contrary to what a couple of members have written, Thailand does have its success stories. I have known a couple students of mine, who on coming to Bangkok with nothing but a grade 6 diploma, sent themselves through adult education and eventually completed a degree at an open university. One, a daughter of a typical Isarn farming family, is now a computer programmer earning more than me.

For sure, and especially with women, beauty is a major plus. White skin, tall and skinny are in, flat-noses, dark-skin and short are out. But then, I don’t see any foreigners complaining about such discrimination and the beauty of their hotel receptionists or flight attendants!

[kerryk]

This is a difficult issue to discuss without making references to other cultures and countries. I think when you compare Thailand with the other countries in SEA it is not that much different. I have seen a large amount of discrimination based on social position, sex and ethnicity in Japan and Singapore let alone the other poorer countries in the region. What can be said about Thai Airways can also be said about Singapore and Japan. The girls are pretty and well trained and hospitable.

I think it is also important to realize that the old boy network that exists in Japan was one of the reasons for their economic growth. In Western countries large amounts of inventory is tied up and capital tied up because there is not a family relationship among suppliers and bankers and producers.

In other countries one never knows if a steel strike will effect your production whereas in Japan there is never a question of continued timely supply.

In a lot of service industries contracts are granted because the parties know each other as well as cost effectiveness.

It also helps if you know the judge and the politicians if one gets a little out of line while trying to be competitive.

I had a chain of restaurants and I did not micro manage them. I let the managers hire who they wanted. One lady manager had all good looking guys working in her restaurant. A bachelor had all good looking women and a minority manager in a minority area had all staff of that minority.

I guess what I am trying to say is I don’t think it is much of a problem. Thailand’s problems are far more basic than discrimination. Any student of Econ 101 could double the GNP of Thailand in five years. It’s problems are not rocket science.

China, is of course, the big boy on the block for the future and I think there are enough Chinese in Thailand to pull it along into the industrial age.

I don’t see a problem with all the bosses being Thai/Chinese and the middle management upper class skinny Thai men and women and all of the factory workers being from Issan.

The problem I see is the lack of capital to build basic industries to create an economic base for GNP growth and a middle class of Thai consumers that will fund the economy of the future and along with it education and social equality.

First things first. Get everybody a job and a decent wage by availability of private employment rather than welfare funding.

I think it is a mistake to think that Western ideas about social equality have any relevance in Thai culture.

Japan’s economy took off not because of social equality but because the 13 families that controlled the country pre WW II were the same 13 families that controlled the economy after WW II along with a healthy amount of money to build new factories.

[GuestHouse]

I think it is a mistake to think that Western ideas about social equality have any relevance in Thai culture

I think it's a bigger mistake to disregard ideas of social equality because you perceive them to be western.

The company that I work for has an equal oportunities policy that we apply in all our offices - Thais take to this with great enthusiasm and I have often heard Thai collegues remark that they enjoy the oportunities they get from working in our company.

I've also witnessed first hand Hi-So Thais overseas meeting members of our staff and struggling with the idea that Thais from seemingly ordinary backgrounds have the lifestyles that they do.

[taxexile]

I've also witnessed first hand Hi-So Thais overseas meeting members of our staff and struggling with the idea that Thais from seemingly ordinary backgrounds have the lifestyles that they do.

..... and ive seen the look of horror on hi-so thai expats in london when they have seen and met lo-so thai expats owning restaurants , driving expensive cars and wearing equally expensive clothes and living in better post code districts.

.... and it really is a look of horror.

wonderful stuff !!

[kerryk]

I am not disregarding the idea of social equality at all. I am saying it is a Western attitude and ideal. It does not exist in Asia. It does not exist in any meaningful way in China, Japan, India, or any other place in Asia. It sure does not exist in the Middle East or Africa.

Japan, China, Singapore and Hong Kong are all successful and clearly don’t need or want outside ideas to improve their culture.

It is difficult enough to start a business in Thailand let alone bringing all the moral and ethical trappings of a another society along with the new enterprise.

Some Westerners seem to approach social equality with the zeal of a missionary and it comes across that way to me.

It smacks of social engineering in a relatively long term and socially stable society.

The change needs to come from within not from outside.

Thailand has not figured out the way to a prosperous economy is to have more coming in than going out.

Thailand needs massive amounts of foreign capital.

Tourism is a short term fix but the basic fact remains that all successful countries have a very large manufacturing base. It takes decades to change an education system to begin to think of high tech industries. It takes six months to build a factory that manufactures refrigerators.

When the Japanese began building auto plants outside of Japan they learned quickly that they could export their management practices but not their cultural ones.

I simply do not see that social equality would alter the economic well being of Thailand to any noticeable degree especially considering the social upheaval the change would cause.

I have no doubt that the socially unequal accept the ideas of social equality with great enthusiasm. I also have no doubt that the socially more than equal view the idea of social equality with disdain.

Another way of saying this is you are upsetting the people with money and connections and pleasing the people without money and connections. I don’t think this makes a lot of sense for a company doing business in a foreign country.

[chownah]

In Thailand there are limited opportunities. Not everyone capable of doing a sophisticated and well paid profession can be supported by that profession....how should society determine who gets the opportunityand who doesn't? In Thailand it is based on social connections...this happens everywhere in the world to some degree or another. Who would you rather hire, a friend or a stranger? I'd rather hire a friend...if I had a good job to offer someone I would research my social connections first to see if I could find a friend or relative to fill the position...if not then look to strangers...its not so strange really. Many rich Thai's do carry it to an extreme though.

Edited June 22, 2006 by chownah

[pop_corn]

The question is so hypothetical it is impossible to answer conclusively.

I'd say anything is possible, despite the class system - but it would be fairly unlikely. When hiring for Front Desk and Sales, a rather high importance is placed upon looks.

I 100% agree with that...

[Donz]

If I was hiring for an assistant i know what I would be after

[Thai-Aust]

in my company one motorbike delivery guy got promoted to sales person, and another went from motorbike to administrate the office. (not from me)

To my surprise both were 100 % thais.

Normaly here everyone above the lowest level is either chinese/half chinese or from the south of thailand.

I have the same experience. I have worked in one of the biggest companies whose the owner was a Chinese. He was a very good person, even hired a disabled man to take phone calls from customers. This was an almost unthinkable practice back twenty five years ago. However, the middle management wouldn't hire any Thais, it was o.k. if they were half Thai-Chinese but never pure Thais.

[Richard W]

The BBC, about 10 years ago, reported that fewer than 10% of British parents sent their kids to Private Schools - yet those kids made up 70% of University entrants. In other words, even though 90% of the kids went to state-run high schools they only accounted for 30% of University students (or less, since I'm not sure if they counted foreign students in the Universities in the calculation).

No, state-educated pupils are the majority - about 70% at the leading universities, though I see the number has dropped as low as 47% as Oxford (55% in 2002). See State School Admissions to our Leading Universities.

Then there was an infamous story about five years ago, where a girl from the North of England with straight 'A's in all academic subjects was denied a place at Oxford or Cambridge - can't remember which one. She didn't pass 'the interview' stage - it was alleged - because of her northern accent

Straight 'A's is described as the 'standard offer'. Certainly 'B's were unusual amongst my contemporaries at my college at Cambridge - I can't speak for all the colleges. They weren't impossible - my offer was 2 'E's, but being a mathematician I'd already got a good 'A' for single Mathematics. Oxford and Cambridge have long complained that 'A' levels are not discriminating enough. I remember one of the dons telling me that entrance examination papers were marked impressionistically - precise, mechanical marking was reserved for 'scholarship' candidates, where marking had to be 'fair'. For the others, the examination was effectively a continuation of the interview.

[thaigene2]

Oxford and Cambridge have long complained that 'A' levels are not discriminating enough. I remember one of the dons telling me that entrance examination papers were marked impressionistically - precise, mechanical marking was reserved for 'scholarship' candidates, where marking had to be 'fair'. For the others, the examination was effectively a continuation of the interview.

Richard

As mentioned the BBC story was a good 8 to 10 years ago..could be wrong. But I doubt it mate..

as for your quote above..I rest my case 'guv'..your 'don' is almost certainly correct - enjoy your success Tim. Do you even dare to suggest that most Brits are simply out of the running not by lack of IQ but through lack of pedigree?? Do you dare, sir?

[Richard W]

As mentioned the BBC story was a good 8 to 10 years ago..could be wrong. But I doubt it mate..

No, it was in 2000. You may care to read Oxford was right, says Laura, and then look at the background articles. The follow-up articles show that the state-sector proportion at Oxbridge had dropped to around 53%, not 30%, a fall from my day.

as for your quote above..I rest my case 'guv'..your 'don' is almost certainly correct - enjoy your success Tim. Do you even dare to suggest that most Brits are simply out of the running not by lack of IQ but through lack of pedigree?? Do you dare, sir?

In so far as there is a social barrier, it's mostly a lack of confidence - 'People from here don't go to Oxbridge'. (My school sent someone to Oxford or Cambridge most years.) Those who don't apply don't get in. Don't forget that some of the people who get AAA may well have been expected to get BBB, so may not have been encouraged to try for Oxbridge anyway.

[thaigene2]

As mentioned the BBC story was a good 8 to 10 years ago..could be wrong. But I doubt it mate..

No, it was in 2000. You may care to read Oxford was right, says Laura, and then look at the background articles. The follow-up articles show that the state-sector proportion at Oxbridge had dropped to around 53%, not 30%, a fall from my day.

as for your quote above..I rest my case 'guv'..your 'don' is almost certainly correct - enjoy your success Tim. Do you even dare to suggest that most Brits are simply out of the running not by lack of IQ but through lack of pedigree?? Do you dare, sir?

In so far as there is a social barrier, it's mostly a lack of confidence - 'People from here don't go to Oxbridge'. (My school sent someone to Oxford or Cambridge most years.) Those who don't apply don't get in. Don't forget that some of the people who get AAA may well have been expected to get BBB, so may not have been encouraged to try for Oxbridge anyway.

The news report I refer to was a Today Programme piece (Radio 4) around 8 to 10 years back. I wasn't making reference to Laura Spence at that point. I can't find it via Google..it may be too old or not archived.

Anyway, let's agree that the latest reports are correct - that it's around 50-50 now. The same reports also say that private schools account for only 7% of UK pupils - and it's probably even less here in Thailand. So the best of those 7% (an artificial creation since only those who can afford to go are there in the first place) are accounting for 50% of the university places - and not just any universities but the TOP university places, and then go on to get the top jobs (most recent news reports talk about them landing top media jobs..but I suspect it would be the same in the 'professions'.)

Anyway, the point here is that when you create an artificially elite structure in UK or Thailand or anywhere, you are ignoring the potential of all those others out there. Have a look at the 20th june on line letters page at the Independent about response to the elite journo 'scandal'.

Do you really think that an ox-bridge educated person is automatically better than a job candidate from a lesser-known university who attended a state school? Would WHERE he attended sschool be your first criteria?

[tourleadersi]

Do you really think that an ox-bridge educated person is automatically better than a job candidate from a lesser-known university who attended a state school? Would WHERE he attended sschool be your first criteria?

I don't think it should be anyone's first criteria when you are wading through a large number of applications (and lets face it, Oxbridge graduates are going to be applying on the whole for the top jobs which means there will be many other hopefuls applying too). I would have to agree that when you are trying to sort a pile off 1000 candidates down to 30 interviewees, schooling background would have to come into play to some extent (especially for entry level applications).

I didn't go to public school, and went to a less than well known university so I am not defending what is happening, but can see the logic.

[Stephen Cleary]

I guess i'm more familiar with the system in Thailand than i am with that in the UK.

So, keeping things more Thai-tied, i'll go on to the education system here. Not surprisingly, Thailand's top government high schools are virtually all located in Bangkok. For the rich Bangkokians with below average kids they can pay enormous fees and get them into poshy private high schools which can be found located along the likes of Silom, Bangrak, Sathorn and Ploenchit.

Most well-off Bangkokian parents would prefer their kids to get into a top state school than the likes of some Catholic school, but if the kid can't make the grades to get in the top classes - pvt schools are second best.

There is very little opportunity for a countryside kid who scores grades along the lines of 'genius' to get a place at one of Thailand's top universities. Bangkok and Thailand's main provincial towns are full of private tuition schools which specialize in teaching high school kids only the technics to pass the university entrance exam. Anyone reader who lives in Bangkok would have seen flocks of kids at the weekend walking around shopping malls carrying their pvt tuition books.

What i am getting at, is that Thailand's top universities are not full to the brim of the country's elite brains, instead mainly kids with parents who have the cash to send them to pvt tuition classes for 6 years. Then if mommy and daddy give the school lots of hansome donations their child's GPA will be soaring through the roof for some unexplainable reason.

There are yearly success stories of poor countryside kids who have managed to win scholorships to study at top high schools, this is one bright side of the Thaksin govt and the proceeds from the govt lottery. But it is still not enough.

Unless Thailand promotes education more (they have been trying) on a more equal basis between the haves and the have nots - you are going to see no change whatsoever in the gap of social structure.

It all begins with education.

[Heng]

It all begins with education.

At the grass roots level, it all begins in the home. Too many folks (all over the world, and especially here) place too much faith in formal education. How many times do you see kids out and about playing games and completely wasting their most valuable learning and development period (in their youth)? I know for myself, it's likely not a coincidence that I'm in business because my folks had me running a cash register, playing with calculators, hitting debtors in the knees with my plastic wrench, etc., before I could ride a bicycle.

Edited June 24, 2006 by Heng

[Stephen Cleary]

It all begins with education.

At the grass roots level, it all begins in the home. Too many folks (all over the world, and especially here) place too much faith in formal education. How many times do you see kids out and about playing games and completely wasting their most valuable learning and development period (in their youth)? I know for myself, it's likely not a coincidence that I'm in business because my folks had me running a cash register, playing with calculators, hitting debtors in the knees with my plastic wrench, etc., before I could ride a bicycle.

Just one page back, i commented on how Thailand places too much emphasis on formal education and their love of qualifications and certification and agree whole-heartedly with what Heng said in his opening sentence.

Education begins at home, formal education begins at school.

What should we do however, when a family, through lack of so-called education or formal education bring their children up advising them 'your life is to either work the farm or become a factory girl'?

"So, i wanna be a factory girl!!" (Noo-Hin)

Quotes from the movie 'Noo-Hin - The Movie' (May 2006) which seem to contemplate, quite appropriately, the title of this thread - 'once a maid, always a maid?'

Edited June 24, 2006 by stevesuphan

[Thai-Aust]

stevesuphan, I think your signature should have been 'หนทางพิสูจน์ม้า กาลเวลาพิสูจน์คน'

Edited June 24, 2006 by Thai-Aust

[Thaible]

Socialist farangs should stop trying to start a class war in Thailand.

Sorry, but not everyone is born with equal intelligence. This is true both in and outside of Thailand. Sorry if some of you didn't succeed in your own country, but no need to bring your baggage here to Thailand.

Thailand is a free capitalist economy. The truly brilliant will make money no matter what. If you really believe that there is that much discrimination here, then go ahead and start a business and hire all of the "discriminated". If your theories are true, then you should be able to make a killing taking advantage of the inefficient labor market.

[Richard W]

Anyway, the point here is that when you create an artificially elite structure in UK or Thailand or anywhere, you are ignoring the potential of all those others out there.

That entirely ignores how you recruit to the elite. The grammar school system (of which I am a second generation product) was an effective part of the recruitment system (Harold Wilson, Edward Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major (not sure if he should count), though the UK has reverted to prime ministers educated in the private sector with Tony Blair - though his father may have been thus recruited - I lack detailed information). The direct grant system was an even more effective system where it operated. These transparent ladders have now been kicked away, and not all comprehensive schools perform the recruitment role of grammar schools.

[thohts]

On the entrepreneurial side, you'll find plenty of folks "moving up" like George and Wheezy in one generation, and often in much less time as well.

As someone told me, "Can we please leave US politics out of this thread and keep it Thailand-related?"

The Jeffersons are not Thai, and therefore should not be discussed at all!

[thohts]

For sure, and especially with women, beauty is a major plus. White skin, tall and skinny are in, flat-noses, dark-skin and short are out. But then, I don’t see any foreigners complaining about such discrimination and the beauty of their hotel receptionists or flight attendants!

I hear quite a few people complain about 'customer service' reps that are "beautiful" but have little intelligence.

[Heng]

On the entrepreneurial side, you'll find plenty of folks "moving up" like George and Wheezy in one generation, and often in much less time as well.

As someone told me, "Can we please leave US politics out of this thread and keep it Thailand-related?"

The Jeffersons are not Thai, and therefore should not be discussed at all!

In this case, I was thinking about Khun George + Khun Wheezy FROM Ubon Ratchathani.

[thohts]

Thailand is a free capitalist economy. The truly brilliant will make money no matter what. If you really believe that there is that much discrimination here, then go ahead and start a business and hire all of the "discriminated". If your theories are true, then you should be able to make a killing taking advantage of the inefficient labor market.

What you seem to be implying is that meritocracy is the norm here. We all know that's not true.

By the way, good luck to any person without extensive financial resources to even start a business (legally - unlicensed food stalls and black market businesses do not count).

Would you call this discrimination? It would seem that only the well-to-do can start businesses legally.

And Thailand is still years away from what is considered a free market economic state. There is simply too much government involvement in economic affairs, not to mention corruption (as a free market dictates that competition is not being prevented by coercion). A free market presumes that a merit-based social, economic, and political economy is prevalent.

[Egon]

I am currently working as an examiner in the UK. I am marking scripts from state schools and private schools. I can confirm that there is a huge gap between state schools and private schools - mainly in terms of the scores the students get not in how bright they are.

It is obvious that the teachers in the private sectors have made it their specialism to churn out good exam results - not necessarily good students though. They clearly drill the students in basic facts and in how to answer questions the most efficiently (ie. the most likely way to pick up maximum marks) The results of this heavy coaching means that all the thicko Essex girls and boys etc. all manage to pull off decent grades that will guarantee them some place at university. From their scripts it is alos clear that many of these high-scorers are really stupid. Because we cannot give negative marks a candidate can basically unload pages and pages of bullsh*t and still manage to just include those basic criteria that will give him a B-grade. Reading scriots from private schools is boring and repetitive. You rarely discover students who approach questions in an independent or imaginative way.

State school students perform worse in general because a state school teacher cannot drill their students in the same way. He or she has to provide an entertainment factor to keep all students on task and interested. If he or she chooses to ignore this then the lower ability and unmotivated students will disrupt the overall learning of others. So what you see from state school students is a weaker degree of rote-learned facts but more creative thinking and independent answers.