Schengen or family member of an EU/EEA citizen route?

[changnaam]

I have done some research on Schengen visa as well as contacting embassies but it seems the rules are a little unclear when traveling with spouse to non home country destination, I wonder if anyone (especially Brits) have experience with this.

We are going to the UK next month (I have UK passport, wife has UK visit visa) and we plan to go to Spain for a week for a holiday. I assumed that we would need a Schengen visa but after looking into it there seem to be an exemption for close family of EU citizen when travelling to a different country. This could be granted on producing a translated (and MOFA certified) marriage certificate at the Spanish embassy before travel to the UK, and get a zero cost "visa".

It appears pretty clear for most EU nationals (Ie German with Thai wife who wants to travel to Spain) but most of the information on the web relates to countries who are part of the "Euro zone" rather than the wider EU. This rule relates to the freedom of movement of EU members and not being restricted by borders.

Does anyone have experience of this, as I appear to be coming up against a brick wall with the Spanish embassy, they keep going back to the Schengen visa (which is no big issue £60) but it would be good to understand the law correctly. If we take a European holiday from the UK holiday every year then after a few years it does start to mount up on top of the UK visa.

I did look through the "Schengen Visa" section which is pinned and it does seem fairly clear, but I wondered if anyone had recent experience.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[MaprangHolmes]

technically you should be able to go to Spain without a Schengen Visa if your wife is traveling with you but it seems that you will most likely not be able to board the plane and if you are able to you may have problems and delays with immigration in Spain.

It is much easier for you to get a Schengen Visa from the Spanish embassy in Bangkok as your wife will traveling with an EU citizen the visa will be free and most of the requirements will not apply, but you will need your marriage certificate translated into English and certified by the MFA (Ministry of Foreign Affairs)

I would assume that the visa form is the same as the one in the UK.

http://es.vfsglobal.co.uk/london/pdf/visaform.pdf

There will be no charge for children under the age of 6. There will be no charge for the spouse and/or dependants of an EU citizen. However, proof of the relationship must be submitted at the time of application. This proof must be an original EU full national passport or national ID card and an original marriage certificate or civil partnership, (birth certificate in the case of children or dependants). Photocopies are not acceptable. Non EU Certificates should be legalised according to the 1961 Hague Convention.

[evadgib]

Unable to post in the locked sticky so i'm posting this Schengen-related link here:

From 9 June 2014, all British Overseas Territories citizens (BOTCs), British Overseas citizens (BOCs), British Protected Persons (BPPs), and British Subjects (BS) will be allowed to travel visa free to the EU Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days.

Visa-free access to EU Schengen area

Edited June 24, 2014 by evadgib

[changnaam]

^{Thanks M'Holmes and Eva,}

^{That was pretty much what I understood but the Spanish Embassy keep saying "cannot... have to get Schengen Visa, 2,600 Baht. (or thereabouts). I will go with the marriage cert and see them and see if that will resolve it.}

^{I will post results on here and hope it may save others paying for Schengen visas if not required}

[sandyf]

I did that in January. We had a week in the UK and then a week in Tenerife. We had to get UK visitor visa and Schengen visa for Spain. You have to apply for the Schengen visa at the VFS office at Sala Daeng, we tried the embassy but they would not do it. If you have a legal marriage certificate then the visa is free, but there is an 800 baht service charge. Also there is no need for financial details or travel insurance details.

You should check the VFS website for Spain to get their guidelines.

Where are you going? The first thing they said to me was you need tickets to Spain, they did not realise Tenerife was Spain.Took 20 minutes to find a map and get it verified.

I went with First Choice and at the check in the lady was most obnoxious, she just took one look at my wifes passport and shouted along the check in desks "Can Thai people go to Tenerife" an answer came back from somewhere "Only if they have a Schengen visa". Personally I think it would be unwise to try and go without one.

Once you get through the VFS bureaucracy the visa is not a problem if you are travelling together.They cannot really refuse unless she is an undesirable. I think it took about a week to get the visa, we opted for the courier.

Hope it helps and good luck.

PS Did not see the previous post until after I had posted. Obviously something new and beneficial. As it is so new the biggest problem at the moment could be ignorance in certain areas. Hope the airlines have been brought up to speed.

Edited June 24, 2014 by sandyf

[sandyf]

Unable to post in the locked sticky so i'm posting this Schengen-related link here:

From 9 June 2014, all British Overseas Territories citizens (BOTCs), British Overseas citizens (BOCs), British Protected Persons (BPPs), and British Subjects (BS) will be allowed to travel visa free to the EU Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days.

Visa-free access to EU Schengen area

I have just read the link again and I do not see anywhere that the visa free access is applicable to family members with foreign passports.

Is visa free access only for those holding a full British passport, or will it also be for those holding a BOTC, BOC, BPP or BS passport?

Citizens who hold either a full British passport or a BOTC, BOC, BPP or BS passport will have visa free access to the Schengen Area. However, it remains advisable to check the entry requirements of the country of destination before confirming travel plans.

[7by7]

changnaam,

As your wife will be travelling with you and you are an EEA national then, strictly speaking, she does not need a visa to enter Spain.

From Your Europe

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

However, I would not recommend this for two reasons;

• This could cause delays at immigration; especially as the Spanish are notorious for ignoring the rules.
• Your airline may be reluctant to board her without a visa, or even flatly refuse to do so.

Therefore I recommend that she does obtain a visa in advance. As she is resident in Thailand she should apply in Thailand.

As already said, most of the questions and documents wont apply to her as she is your wife, you are an EEA national and she will be travelling with you; check the application form carefully.The visa should also be free and processed within 15 days maximum.

She can apply via VFS and pay their 800 baht service charge, but she also has the right to apply directly to the embassy and so not pay this VFS charge.

As theoldgit says in this post

.......what is said on the VFS Website:

Short-term visa applications can be submitted at the Visa Application Centre in Bangkok without prior appointment. Please note that you can also submit the application at the Embassy, but you will need to schedule an appointment at [email protected].
If you wish to apply for a Long term visa, please contact the Embassy ([email protected]).

http://www.vfsglobal.com/spain/thailand/

But as said, the Spanish are notorious for ignoring the rules and so may give you a hard time if you do try and apply directly to the embassy; up to you whether you insist on you and your wife's rights under EU law or apply via VFS.

Edited June 24, 2014 by 7by7

[jimn]

Guys why dont you read the pinned topic Schengan Visa FAQ especially the section on Spouse and family members of EU citizens. It answers all your questions

[jimn]

However, I would not recommend this for two reasons;

• This could cause delays at immigration; especially as the Spanish are notorious for ignoring the rules.
• Your airline may be reluctant to board her without a visa, or even flatly refuse to do so.

Therefore I recommend that she does obtain a visa in advance. As she is resident in Thailand she should apply in Thailand.

Hi 7by7

Interested in your comment above that a visa should be applied for in advance in home country Thailand. I know this applies to Schengan Visa applications, but does it also apply to a direct application to an embassy by a spouse of a UK citizen. ie If a UK citizen wants a take his Thai wife, who is in the UK on a visit visa, over to Spain and wants to take an unplanned holiday. Is it not against EU regulations restricting freedom of movement for the spouse of a UK citizen by saying you can get a visa but you have to go back to Thailand to get it.

I have no idea, any thoughts?

[7by7]

A good question, jimn, and I must admit not one that's occurred to me.

The general rule is that a Schengen visa should be applied for in the applicant's country of residence; but as you say enforcing that for the qualifying family member of an EEA national could go against the freedom of movement regulations.

Leave it with me, and I'll get back on this; unless someone like Donutz, who knows more about this sort of thing than I, does so first.

[changnaam]

Guys why dont you read the pinned topic Schengan Visa FAQ especially the section on Spouse and family members of EU citizens. It answers all your questions

Jimn,

The pinned section is helpful and thanks for the advice but I checked this first which I believe I stated in the op.

The rules seem not so clear and the Embassies also do not seem too tuned into current rules so I was after recent, local information which so far has been be useful so could help more people on here.

[bobrussell]

The Embassies are perfectly aware of the rules but choose to interpret them as they wish. I wonder if there is an effort to get all applications completed through VFS and similar organisations to reduce hassle!

Good airlines should also be well aware of the rules but staff training is not always what it should be so check in staff may be an obstacle.

A bit odd that the link regarding visa free access seems to suggest British Passport holders can only stay in the Schengen area for a maximum of 90 out of 120 days as if holding visas. As we do not require visas, Schengen or otherwise, this seems a bit odd. I assume that as we do not require a visa, we don't require a visa concession but perhaps a sign of things to come??

"The visa concession covers visits only. The maximum duration is 90 days in a period of 180 days. The visa concession does not cover employment or study - where the appropriate visa must be obtained prior to travelling."

Edited June 24, 2014 by bobrussell

[Donutz]

The Directive on Freedom Movement (2004/38) doesn't say that family members can only get a visa at their country of residence, so it wouldn't make sense if those who fall under the directive could not apply for a Schengen visa from the UK on a short stay visa or vice versa. Especially not since you can also get a visa at the border and that such applicants according to the EU (Schengen Handbook) should be granted every facility. So I would say: sure you are entitled to a Schengen application while on holiday in the UK (UK spouse and non EU family member).

Now regular applicants are expected to apply from their country of residence but they are allowed to at least ask the embassy to consider and if it would be unreasonable not to accept the application. The handbook names a few examples too.

If you want to be sure, ask Your Europe Advice or an immigration lawyer.

[Bpuumike]

Definitely get her a Schengen visa in BKK.

If you, even as a Brit, have a Spanish residence card you should easily get her one too at your local Ayunto.

I think this was discussed on a topic last week.

[sandyf]

However, I would not recommend this for two reasons;

• This could cause delays at immigration; especially as the Spanish are notorious for ignoring the rules.
• Your airline may be reluctant to board her without a visa, or even flatly refuse to do so.

Therefore I recommend that she does obtain a visa in advance. As she is resident in Thailand she should apply in Thailand.

Hi 7by7

Interested in your comment above that a visa should be applied for in advance in home country Thailand. I know this applies to Schengan Visa applications, but does it also apply to a direct application to an embassy by a spouse of a UK citizen. ie If a UK citizen wants a take his Thai wife, who is in the UK on a visit visa, over to Spain and wants to take an unplanned holiday. Is it not against EU regulations restricting freedom of movement for the spouse of a UK citizen by saying you can get a visa but you have to go back to Thailand to get it.

I have no idea, any thoughts?

You can use the visa centres in the UK, Does not have to be Thailand for a Thai. When I was at VFS there was a Russian girl at the next counter going to Spain. She was having a problem because she did not have ticket back to Thailand. Her ticket was from Spain to Russia.

I know from first hand experience that Thompson Airlines will not accept passengers without the visa.

[7by7]

You can use the visa centres in the UK, Does not have to be Thailand for a Thai. When I was at VFS there was a Russian girl at the next counter going to Spain. She was having a problem because she did not have ticket back to Thailand. Her ticket was from Spain to Russia.

Was she a resident of Thailand going on a visit home via Spain and then back to Thailand?

Had she been resident in Thailand but her residency had ended and now she was returning home via Spain?

Had she been holiday in Thailand and had decided to go home via Spain?

Without knowing which of these, or even if it was a different situation, it is impossible to comment; though that she was having difficulties does indicate that generally applicants do have to apply in their country of residence and that her not having a ticket back to Thailand indicated that maybe she was no longer a Thai resident, if she ever had been.

It certainly does not prove that non UK residents can apply in the UK; though as Donutz says, qualifying family members of an EEA national almost certainly can apply in the UK, or anywhere: even if they are not residents of the country where they apply.

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

Edited June 25, 2014 by 7by7

[jimn]

You can use the visa centres in the UK, Does not have to be Thailand for a Thai. When I was at VFS there was a Russian girl at the next counter going to Spain. She was having a problem because she did not have ticket back to Thailand. Her ticket was from Spain to Russia.

Was she a resident of Thailand going on a visit home via Spain and then back to Thailand?

Had she been resident in Thailand but her residency had ended and now she was returning home via Spain?

Had she been holiday in Thailand and had decided to go home via Spain?

Without knowing which of these, or even if it was a different situation, it is impossible to comment; though that she was having difficulties does indicate that generally applicants do have to apply in their country of residence and that her not having a ticket back to Thailand indicated that maybe she was no longer a Thai resident, if she ever had been.

It certainly does not prove that non UK residents can apply in the UK; though as Donutz says, qualifying family members of an EEA national almost certainly can apply in the UK, or anywhere: even if they are not residents of the country where they apply.

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

7by7 and Donutz thanks for your comments on my question.

SandyF oh dear you rather do go into type without thinking it through sometimes don't you !!!

[changnaam]

Spoke with Spanish embassy today, they are insisting vise "free" is only allowed if it relates to eu member settling in Spain, not for holiday.

They are claiming schengen visa required and paid for.

[Donutz]

Any EU national except Spaniards can take their Thai family on a free visa to Spain for either short stay (90 days) or residency. The Spanish website should have this info too, though their website sucks (violating the Visa Code...), VFS has this info even though it's not entitely correct (no need for confirmation from the EU national embassy...).

Point them to the EU webpage on travel in the EU. Aswell as articles 1-6 of the freedom of movement directive; http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

2004/38/EC Freedom of Movement, available in most languages as PDF:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32004L0038

Forward their BS to the EU Home Affairs, Solvit, the EU representation in TH "EU embassy" and the Spanish ministry of foreign affairs. That should cut such nonsense soon enough. Pathetic...

[changnaam]

Thanks Donutz, will send them the links and go and see them because this is getting rather frustrating.

[7by7]

You can make a complaint/enquiry to Solvit using this online form.

[sometimewoodworker]

Spoke with Spanish embassy today, they are insisting vise "free" is only allowed if it relates to eu member settling in Spain, not for holiday.

They are claiming schengen visa required and paid for.

That is not correct information, but is a common statement by embassy's as the mostly issue shengen visas to people who are not EU spouses so charge for the service. When it is pointed out that EU spouses get a free visa they are often confused but usually comply

[sandyf]

You can use the visa centres in the UK, Does not have to be Thailand for a Thai. When I was at VFS there was a Russian girl at the next counter going to Spain. She was having a problem because she did not have ticket back to Thailand. Her ticket was from Spain to Russia.

Was she a resident of Thailand going on a visit home via Spain and then back to Thailand?

Had she been resident in Thailand but her residency had ended and now she was returning home via Spain?

Had she been holiday in Thailand and had decided to go home via Spain?

Without knowing which of these, or even if it was a different situation, it is impossible to comment; though that she was having difficulties does indicate that generally applicants do have to apply in their country of residence and that her not having a ticket back to Thailand indicated that maybe she was no longer a Thai resident, if she ever had been.

It certainly does not prove that non UK residents can apply in the UK; though as Donutz says, qualifying family members of an EEA national almost certainly can apply in the UK, or anywhere: even if they are not residents of the country where they apply.

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

Exactly. A Russian would require a Schengen visa to travel to Spain.

VFS guidelines state you must have a return ticket to Thailand, Schengen regulations say you must have an onward journey.

All I know is she was upset that her application would not be accepted.

[sandyf]

Spoke with Spanish embassy today, they are insisting vise "free" is only allowed if it relates to eu member settling in Spain, not for holiday.

They are claiming schengen visa required and paid for.

We got a free Schengen visa to Spain through VFS in Dec, the embassy refused an appointment. You may be entitled to go to the embassy but you are probably feeling the backlash from that approach.

[7by7]

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

Exactly. A Russian would require a Schengen visa to travel to Spain.

VFS guidelines state you must have a return ticket to Thailand, Schengen regulations say you must have an onward journey.

All I know is she was upset that her application would not be accepted.

Quite, and as she is not an EEA national she has no freedom of movement rights in the EEA and so, as well as having to comply with all the other requirements, she should apply in her country of residence.

Unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA, but not Spanish, national and travelling with or to join her EEA national family member.

So, unless that is the case, I fail to see what your point was in bringing her up!

[7by7]

Spoke with Spanish embassy today, they are insisting vise "free" is only allowed if it relates to eu member settling in Spain, not for holiday.

They are claiming schengen visa required and paid for.

We got a free Schengen visa to Spain through VFS in Dec, the embassy refused an appointment. You may be entitled to go to the embassy but you are probably feeling the backlash from that approach.

There should be no 'backlash' from an EEA national wanting to exercise their rights and those of their qualifying non EEA family members!

The Spanish are notorious on this and similar forums for their ignoring of the rules. Not just in Bangkok and London but worldwide!

Putting up with it, or worse using their 'interpretation' as an example of what the actual rules are, wont make them change.

Complaints to Solvit will.

Edited June 26, 2014 by 7by7

[sandyf]

You can use the visa centres in the UK, Does not have to be Thailand for a Thai. When I was at VFS there was a Russian girl at the next counter going to Spain. She was having a problem because she did not have ticket back to Thailand. Her ticket was from Spain to Russia.

Was she a resident of Thailand going on a visit home via Spain and then back to Thailand?

Had she been resident in Thailand but her residency had ended and now she was returning home via Spain?

Had she been holiday in Thailand and had decided to go home via Spain?

Without knowing which of these, or even if it was a different situation, it is impossible to comment; though that she was having difficulties does indicate that generally applicants do have to apply in their country of residence and that her not having a ticket back to Thailand indicated that maybe she was no longer a Thai resident, if she ever had been.

It certainly does not prove that non UK residents can apply in the UK; though as Donutz says, qualifying family members of an EEA national almost certainly can apply in the UK, or anywhere: even if they are not residents of the country where they apply.

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

7by7 and Donutz thanks for your comments on my question.

SandyF oh dear you rather do go into type without thinking it through sometimes don't you !!!

You are probably right.

In the wayward train of thought I think that there are many on here that think they can be a driving instructor without getting behind the wheel.

If the OP had gone to VFS there would be no awkward dialogue with the Spanish embassy and would be sitting waiting for the visa. But then, what do I know.

[sandyf]

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

Exactly. A Russian would require a Schengen visa to travel to Spain.

VFS guidelines state you must have a return ticket to Thailand, Schengen regulations say you must have an onward journey.

All I know is she was upset that her application would not be accepted.

Quite, and as she is not an EEA national she has no freedom of movement rights in the EEA and so, as well as having to comply with all the other requirements, she should apply in her country of residence.

Unless she is the qualifying family member of an EEA, but not Spanish, national and travelling with or to join her EEA national family member.

So, unless that is the case, I fail to see what your point was in bringing her up!

If nationality was a problem then she would never have been at the counter in the first place. I would have thought that with your experience you would have been aware of that.

[thonglorjimmy]

If the OP had gone to VFS there would be no awkward dialogue with the Spanish embassy and would be sitting waiting for the visa. But then, what do I know.

I will admit I'm not as expert as your good self in these matters.

My partner is lodging her application directly at the Spanish Consulate next week, the appointment was easy to arrange, a simple email exchange with a less than 24 hour response.

What awkward dialogue can she expect with the Spanish Embassy?

I fail to see how lodging the application with VFS would save her "sitting waiting for a visa", surely VFS only receive the application and then pass it on to the Embassy for processing, as they say on their website "Applications submitted in Bangkok will be assessed by The Embassy of Spain, located in Bangkok", and wait for it to be returned before it can be picked up. So I what the problem is with lodging it directly, as you rightly say "but then, what do I know".

I would be really grateful for your advice.

I am aware that she wants to bypass the VFS Application Centre following the incorrect advice they gave her last year when she applied for a previous Schengen Visa, to be fair VFS did apologise and promise to re-train their staff, but she wasn't convinced.

[changnaam]

You can use the visa centres in the UK, Does not have to be Thailand for a Thai. When I was at VFS there was a Russian girl at the next counter going to Spain. She was having a problem because she did not have ticket back to Thailand. Her ticket was from Spain to Russia.

Was she a resident of Thailand going on a visit home via Spain and then back to Thailand?

Had she been resident in Thailand but her residency had ended and now she was returning home via Spain?

Had she been holiday in Thailand and had decided to go home via Spain?

Without knowing which of these, or even if it was a different situation, it is impossible to comment; though that she was having difficulties does indicate that generally applicants do have to apply in their country of residence and that her not having a ticket back to Thailand indicated that maybe she was no longer a Thai resident, if she ever had been.

It certainly does not prove that non UK residents can apply in the UK; though as Donutz says, qualifying family members of an EEA national almost certainly can apply in the UK, or anywhere: even if they are not residents of the country where they apply.

BTW, Russia is not a member of the EEA.

7by7 and Donutz thanks for your comments on my question.

SandyF oh dear you rather do go into type without thinking it through sometimes don't you !!!

You are probably right.

In the wayward train of thought I think that there are many on here that think they can be a driving instructor without getting behind the wheel.

If the OP had gone to VFS there would be no awkward dialogue with the Spanish embassy and would be sitting waiting for the visa. But then, what do I know.

Thanks for your "useful" comment Sandy. I prefer to get information before I start wasting my time going to Bangkok and to embassies, and so far I have learnt a lot from this forum. At least now I can rock up to the embassy with the facts and some back up with some of the useful sites which people have suggested and I may just get everything sorted in one visit......... But then, what do I know !!