Body found in Jerusalem after Palestinian youth forced into vehicle

[Donnie Brasco]

This is getting weird and VERY creepy, but just so people know. Interestingly there are genetic links between different Jewish ethnic segments and also Italians, Palestinian Arabs, etc.

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100603/full/news.2010.277.html

Jews worldwide share genetic ties

But analysis also reveals close links to Palestinians and Italians

The study provides a genetic basis for confirming or debunking theories of Jewish origin and history, says Ostrer. For example, one theory proposes that Ashkenazi Jews (of eastern European origin) are largely descended from Khazars in eastern Europe who converted to Judaism, but the genetic closeness between Ashkenazi Jews and other non-European Jews does not support this idea.

As far as skin color variation, it is a basic fact of anthropology that skin color changes very fast evolutionary speaking (after migration), and very white and very black people can often have VERY SIMILAR genetic profiles.

It's unfortunate that any time the facts in evidence, argument or the existing historical record threaten Jingthing's cherished personal opinions he choses to bring on that time-tested, all-purpose opinion-smear child word, "creepy".

Nobody likes "creepy". Nobody wants "creepy".

Yet in spite of that, nobody except a crowd-sourcing, Urban Dictionary using, denotation-flinging bafflegabbing cant merchant ever uses it.

The term is baldly unscientific.

Listen up Funseekers:

You can bring your own opinions to an argument.

Everybody has opinions, they are like, um, noses and cowboy hats.

Facts are different.

Opinion: Water, in its solid form is densist. A bewildering percentage of people accept this.

Fact: Water at +4degrees Centigrade is densist. That's why ice floats.

"Facts" trump opinion.

There's nothing "creepy" about bringing that up.

And there's nothing "creepy" about citing facts, argument, historical record or science that disprove someone's popular opinion or which support unsubstantiated consensus.

Science is never "done" just because people like to clap themselves silly if it momentarily supports their pet prejudices.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[Ulysses G.]

Anyone who uses "Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . " as their permanent signature has a lot of chutzpah criticizing Jingthing for using the word "creepy" every once in a while.

[Johpa]

"When Victims Rule" is an easy Google and an even easier free download. Download it and browse the index and the contents.

Here is one quote from an informed source. There are THOUSANDS of prominent Jewish thinkers and commentators rising up to contradict the assertions and misrepresentations truffling this particular thread.

"We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day."

(Michael Ben-Yair, 3 March 2002) (emphasis added)

All of the comments in "When Victims Rule" are by Jews about Judaism and being a Jew.

Somehow I parse it as a political comment by a relatively secular Israeli about Israeli policy. I see nothing said about being a Jew or about Judaism. But I am a non-theist and perhaps you see something in the above comment that I do not see.

By the way, Ben-Yair is simply wrong on the highlighted point. The discrimination and police state did not evolve immediately after Israel took control of the territories. Prior to Menahem Begin and the Likud taking office in the late 1970s there was relatively free travel between Israel proper and the former Jordanian territory along the West Bank. Economically the West Bank was prospering relative to its days under Jordanian rule. In the first half of 1970s one could still meet both young Israelis and Palestinians, not to mention world travelers, sharing coffee in the Petra Coffee shop just inside the Jerusalem Gate discussing the Alon Plan. The hatred had not yet descended upon the land. The intifada did not begin until the latter half of the 1970s (not in the early 1980s as some erroneously claim) primarily in response to the new Israeli settlements such as the original Elon Moreh site and later, far more tragically, the settlement of Hebron by the same religious extremists from places like the Yeshivat Ha'Kotel. But Ben-Yair is absolutely correct when he says that Israel should have evicted the Israeli settlers from Hebron two decades ago after the Goldstein Massacre.

[Donnie Brasco]

Most of the search and related activities were conducted in areas under Israel's control, not the PA's.

There's actually quite a bit around about Israel and the PA security co-operation, not only in relation

to current events. Not something both sides are eager to expose much, but beneficial to both (note

that many, if not most, of those arrested are Hamas people, something which acts in favor of the PA,

hence they do not make that much of a noise about it).

The recent Wikipedia page regarding the kidnapping references some of these instances:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

Another good read on this issue can be found here:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/06/26/bibi_and_the_lost_boys_netanyahu_israel_kidnapped_teenagers_abbas

Again, since they cooperate all that much, why can you nor anyone else produce one string of evidence such as photo's or anything to substantiate the claims.

And since most of the search was conducted in areas under Israeli control, PA could NOT possibly assist, unless of course they attached 1 PA officer to each IDF search party and now calling it "assisting"

So you saying Hamas operatives run around freely under PA nose kidnapping and killing jews and all PA does according to you is cooperate with Israel instead of arresting and stopping Hamas?

The very same PA who claims to want to have peace with Israel, and land back, does little to absolutely nothing to stop attacks on Israel?

There are hundreds of links to different sites and opinions, so in all honestly for every one you post i can post back just as many contradicting your links.

PA is no different to Hamas, Hamas openly speaks and does,

PA smiles to your face but stabs you in the back, still smiling

Did Hamas not originate as a figment of the intelligence community over there ?

Was that attempt to co-opt Palestinian sympathies hi-jacked by the realpolitik in the region which was decidedly ant-PA/Abbas ??

Didn't Hamas contest an election 10 or twelve years ago in Palestine AGAINST the Palestinian authority ??

And didn't the PA lose that election ??

And after the international community declared a clean election, didn't Hammas win an absolute majority ??

And wasn't Hammas's victory subsequently quashed by "The Quartet"

And have not the West's Print, Televised and some Internets sites systematically smeared Hamas for the last ten years.

Just askin'.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[Donnie Brasco]

@ Johpa

Thank you for your comment.

I agree with all you say.

The scope of "When Victims Rule" is simply vast.

As a result there will be misapplications and incongruities. However I think you can see that the general themes in this fifteen hundred page (and growing) compendium of Jewish opinion are consistent with my campaign to apply a modicum of critical thinking to what, until now has been an amorphous cauldron of folklore.

I would like to see Israel abide by certain globally accepted ethical principals.

That's it.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[Morch]

Most of the search and related activities were conducted in areas under Israel's control, not the PA's.

There's actually quite a bit around about Israel and the PA security co-operation, not only in relation

to current events. Not something both sides are eager to expose much, but beneficial to both (note

that many, if not most, of those arrested are Hamas people, something which acts in favor of the PA,

hence they do not make that much of a noise about it).

The recent Wikipedia page regarding the kidnapping references some of these instances:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

Another good read on this issue can be found here:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/06/26/bibi_and_the_lost_boys_netanyahu_israel_kidnapped_teenagers_abbas

Again, since they cooperate all that much, why can you nor anyone else produce one string of evidence such as photo's or anything to substantiate the claims.

And since most of the search was conducted in areas under Israeli control, PA could NOT possibly assist, unless of course they attached 1 PA officer to each IDF search party and now calling it "assisting"

So you saying Hamas operatives run around freely under PA nose kidnapping and killing jews and all PA does according to you is cooperate with Israel instead of arresting and stopping Hamas?

The very same PA who claims to want to have peace with Israel, and land back, does little to absolutely nothing to stop attacks on Israel?

There are hundreds of links to different sites and opinions, so in all honestly for every one you post i can post back just as many contradicting your links.

PA is no different to Hamas, Hamas openly speaks and does,

PA smiles to your face but stabs you in the back, still smiling

I really doubt you bothered to read any of the links provided, and yet you keep asking for more or saying that

Not sure what kind of pictures you expect to be presented, not something always available on the media anyway.

As far as I understand, from actually reading the links (and further, articles cited in them) - the PA's assistance is more

to do with intelligence, continued search for the killers within A areas and allowing IDF to operate within A areas during

the search. It may not seem like a big deal to you, for anyone familiar with the situation, it is.

Hamas has a presence in the West Bank, this is not a secret. They're present even in C areas, and in East Jerusalem.

Again, if you're surprised by this or take it as something new - shows some lack of acquaintance with details. The PA

actually runs tabs on Hamas in the West Bank as they are also their rivals. How dedicated they are is another matter,

undoubtedly not as much as the Israelis. Again, you may downplay this as well, I do not think Israeli security services

and the IDF share your point of view. Considering that the PA needs to beware of Palestinian public opinion, then so

far their actions aren't too shabby, if not stellar.

There are hundreds of links and sites, yes. However, most of the links on the wiki page are factual, rather than opinion.

Quite odd that you keep taking a position not wholly supported by the Israeli government, the IDF and Israel's security

services, but guess each to his own. Far as I'm aware, Israel still says the guilty party is Hamas, rather than the PA.

It does not mean the PA are the "good guys", nor "angels". Hardly. It does not mean Israel does not oppose the deal

between the PA and the Hamas. But with regard to this event - the Israeli finger is pointed at Hamas.

When did i say guilty party was PA?

Since when did WIki become factual instead of an opinion which can be edited by anyone?

Really, you should stop trying to come off as someone with superior knowledge, it is pretty clear all your knowledge is based on what you read on Internet and you are selective at that.

Hamas does not have the presence in the West Bank , but it does not mean Hamas operatives do not live in the West Bank

Again you keep bringing up PA intelligence,

What intelligence? do you have any proof or knowledge? NO, this is once again your opinion ONLY so do not try to pass it as a fact.

Lets see how long it takes Israel to arrest the killers of arab boy, shall we?!

Better yet, how about let PA intelligence do the investigation and see what they find

Well, don't know if "guilty" is quite the right word, certainly sounds as if you see the PA as largely responsible and at least

partially complicit. While I do agree that the PA bears some responsibility to this, I do not think this is a bit more complicated

than black and white formulations.

Wikipedia is not a source by itself, rather a compilation of sources. By all means, read it with a critical mind and check the

original source material reference. As for the ease of editing Wikipedia pages - mostly untrue. If you do not trust my word

on this, do try to make a significant (or even a minor change) in any page either pertaining to a much referenced topic or

any controversial topic, or topics which make current headlines. You'll be surprised how quickly this will be noticed and

negated. Think this forum, with resident know-it-alls having to much free time on their hands, multiply it globally, add some

interested parties. The discussions regarding edits (linked on Wikipedia pages) are often as interesting as the topics are.

My knowledge regarding most of what I post is based on either first hand experience, living in the Middle East for a long

while, in addition to some scholarly learning and extensive reading. Considering the complexity and emotional investment

many of these topics exhibit, it is not surprising that people will have different opinions, which is quite alright.

Absolutely no idea why claim the Hamas does not have a presence in the West Bank. This is well documented and not

a secret. Hamas, in addition to being a terrorist organization is also a political movement, and a powerful opposition to

the Fatah. They are quite popular in the West Bank as well. Israel arrested hundreds of Palestinians during the search -

many of them are reported to be Hamas people. Here are links to illustrate this:

http://bbcwatch.org/2014/05/07/bbc-ignores-hamas-show-of-force-in-ramallah/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/16/israel-considering-expelling-hamas-leaders-west-bank-gaza

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/.premium-1.564568

As for security cooperation between Israel and the PA - I'm at a loss regarding what "proof" you expect. This cooperation

is a part and a parcel of the agreements between the two parties. It was brought up in a few of the links provided on some

of the recent relevant topics in TVF. No one ever claimed this cooperation is ideal, perfect or anything of the sort. Keeping

on saying it is my invention simply does not conform with reality - not sure how to go about convincing you otherwise.

I do not imagine it will take Israeli police too long to get to the bottom of the Arab boy's murder, but probably no instant

answers. It is very doubtful that if police investigations prove inconclusive or provide an alternative explanation, these will

be accepted by the Palestinian public. Seems like they made their minds already. Fair enough, this is quite the norm when

it comes to the conflict. The PA holds no jurisdiction in any of the areas to do with this, so not much for them to contribute

to the case.

[Morch]

Are you seriously suggesting that this is something done by Israeli authorities?

For one thing, details are still unclear, and second - police already on the scene.

The so called wall, is in many parts a fence, and does not encircle the West Bank.

Palestinian access to Israel is limited, yes, but that goes way before the barrier.

The barrier itself does not imprison, so much as keeps Israeli and Palestinians apart.

This concept is sometimes called APARTHEID.

Oh dear....

The Palestinians, the Palestinian Authority, Gaza, the Hamas and areas obviously controlled by them are not currently

a part of Israel, and are not likely to be in most reasonable solutions. Most of the Israeli public tacitly accepts this one

way or the other.

The barrier, separation wall (whatever people want to call it) - does not divide between citizens of the same country.

Thinking about it as a temporary border is more accurate.

Apartheid would require Israel to surround about 20% of its own population (Israeli Arabs) and restrict their movement,

curtail their rights etc.

The fact that there are a few million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza living in limbo as far as their political and

national definition is concerned, is to be abhorred. Israel most certainly got a large part in the creation and continuation

of this sorry state of affairs.

Apartheid, however, is probably not the term which describes it.

I am becoming increasingly weary of the anti-Islamic hate speech on this board.

If you wish to hear what Jews have to say on practically any facet of their history, their ethics and or their culture you have only to reference the exhaustive anthology of quotes by Jews on the web site "When Victims Rule". It's a free download.

Someone else muddled out a blurry reference non-Jews practicing Judaism . . . . . Well, according to Ashkenazi Jew Arthur Koestler many non-Sephardic, or European Jews fall into this category. These people, strictly speaking, are actually from the Caucasus. Gilad Atzmon, Shlomo Sand, and other Jews have also commented on several issues addressed in comments currently on the board.

"When Victims Rule" is an easy Google and an even easier free download. Download it and browse the index and the contents.

Here is one quote from an informed source. There are THOUSANDS of prominent Jewish thinkers and commentators rising up to contradict the assertions and misrepresentations truffling this particular thread.

"We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day."

(Michael Ben-Yair, 3 March 2002) (emphasis added)

All of the comments in "When Victims Rule" are by Jews about Judaism and being a Jew.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

I do not believe my posts incorporated or exhibited any anti-Muslim hate speech.

Both Israelis (or indeed, Jews) and Palestinians (too a lesser extent, Muslims in general) play the victim card way too often.

In some instances, both are right, in many instances these are merely excuses to justify actions, or means to garner global

public opinion support. It is quite easy to reference both, and in many cases quite easy to point out duplicity, dishonesty or

plain exaggerations and lies. This is, apparently, an unavoidable part of modern day politics. Not really unique only to this

conflict.

Quoting Jewish scholars and writers opposing Israel's main-steam politics and narrative is fine. Seems to me like one of the

hallmarks of having a pluralistic society. Not so sure that the national, ethnic or religious affiliation necessarily lends more

credibility to the arguments themselves. I mentioned a topic partially related to this on an earlier post (perhaps in another

topic, though) when commenting on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians It is probably worth mentioning that there

is no such plurality of ideas, criticism of leadership and reflection upon history on the Palestinian side, at least not anything

on the scale found with Israeli (or Jewish) thinkers.

If someone wishes to describe Israel as an Apartheid state, without addressing the existence of a sizable Arab minority

within Israel which enjoys civil rights and political representation, that's ok too - just a little misleading. Israel is by no

means perfect, neither in its treatment of the Palestinians nor in its treatment of minorities living within its borders. There

could be valid issued raised regarding the justification and circumstances of its creation, yes. I do not believe it amounts

to denouncing it as an Apartheid state as such, nor does it make Israel singularly evil. But of course, each to his own.

[Morch]

The Jews who migrated to Palestine after World War 2 are not descendants of the Hebrews you read about in the Bible. They are descended from Khazars in central Asia, near present-day Russian Georgia, who converted to Judaism in 800AD. Khazaria fell a century later and the descendants of the converted Jews migrated northward into Russia and west into Europe.

This group of Jews, called Ashkenazi, are not descended from any of the 12 tribes described in the Bible. DNA tests confirm this, as does their pale skin that makes it clear they are not originally from the Middle East.

Thus, Israel's claim to the lands of Palestine rests solely on the fact that they have adopted the religion of a people who lived on that land thousands of years ago. One might just as easily adopt the religion of Ra and on that basis lay claim to Egypt.

Of course, common sense says that simply adopting the religion of the Sun Dance does not give me a claim to the lands of the United States. Were I to worship Ra (or Aten), likewise does not give me a claim to the lands of Egypt. Worshipping Sol Invictus does not give me claim to Italy.

And worshipping Yahweh does not give the Khazars any real right to Palestine.

Just something to think about.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

Not finding the whole DNA, race, religion and ancient history arguments too constructive or relevant.

Going this way, we'll have to shift about many of the worlds populations and borders. People, nations

and religions evolve, that's just the way it is.

On this note, quite a few (if not most) Palestinians support surnames which in effect identify their earlier

roots to cities, regions and countries all over the Middle East and the Muslim world. Does that mean they

are not entitled to their land? I hardly think so (and relevant countries will not see it this way as well).

Past justifications are of academic interest, perhaps. Not always helpful in solving present day issues.

[Morch]

Most of the search and related activities were conducted in areas under Israel's control, not the PA's.

There's actually quite a bit around about Israel and the PA security co-operation, not only in relation

to current events. Not something both sides are eager to expose much, but beneficial to both (note

that many, if not most, of those arrested are Hamas people, something which acts in favor of the PA,

hence they do not make that much of a noise about it).

The recent Wikipedia page regarding the kidnapping references some of these instances:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers

Another good read on this issue can be found here:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/06/26/bibi_and_the_lost_boys_netanyahu_israel_kidnapped_teenagers_abbas

Again, since they cooperate all that much, why can you nor anyone else produce one string of evidence such as photo's or anything to substantiate the claims.

And since most of the search was conducted in areas under Israeli control, PA could NOT possibly assist, unless of course they attached 1 PA officer to each IDF search party and now calling it "assisting"

So you saying Hamas operatives run around freely under PA nose kidnapping and killing jews and all PA does according to you is cooperate with Israel instead of arresting and stopping Hamas?

The very same PA who claims to want to have peace with Israel, and land back, does little to absolutely nothing to stop attacks on Israel?

There are hundreds of links to different sites and opinions, so in all honestly for every one you post i can post back just as many contradicting your links.

PA is no different to Hamas, Hamas openly speaks and does,

PA smiles to your face but stabs you in the back, still smiling

Did Hamas not originate as a figment of the intelligence community over there ?

Was that attempt to co-opt Palestinian sympathies hi-jacked by the realpolitik in the region which was decidedly ant-PA/Abbas ??

Didn't Hamas contest an election 10 or twelve years ago in Palestine AGAINST the Palestinian authority ??

And didn't the PA lose that election ??

And after the international community declared a clean election, didn't Hammas win an absolute majority ??

And wasn't Hammas's victory subsequently quashed by "The Quartet"

And have not the West's Print, Televised and some Internets sites systematically smeared Hamas for the last ten years.

Just askin'.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

The Hamas did win the election, if not achieving an absolute majority (something like Thailand's PTP win - over 40%

popular vote, over 50% of the seats, due to the election system). The elections themselves were declared as relatively

clean, which was quite a nice surprise at the time.

The election victory was not disputed as such. Israel, the EU and the USA see Hamas as a terrorist organization (for

rather obvious reasons, one may not accept, of course) and therefore refused to cooperate with it. Not quite sure how

you mean "systematically smeared" - not like they are peaceful neighbor, and not like they are not calling for Israel's

destruction. Oh, and there was this bit with killing off the Fatah people, about a year after the election took place....

[Morch]

@ Johpa

Thank you for your comment.

I agree with all you say.

The scope of "When Victims Rule" is simply vast.

As a result there will be misapplications and incongruities. However I think you can see that the general themes in this fifteen hundred page (and growing) compendium of Jewish opinion are consistent with my campaign to apply a modicum of critical thinking to what, until now has been an amorphous cauldron of folklore.

I would like to see Israel abide by certain globally accepted ethical principals.

That's it.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

I fully agree Israel should be better than this. For me it goes with the heritage claimed by Jews.

While not taking Israel's neighbors as a moral compass, benchmark or standard, I'll admit to some

resentment when similar expectation are not made as far as they are concerned, and allowances are given.

There are good reasons for that, both political and cultural, but still - would be much better if everyone was

one the same page in same rulebook.

[Pakboong]

Anyone who uses "Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . " as their permanent signature has a lot of chutzpah criticizing Jingthing for using the word "creepy" every once in a while.

UG, we rarely agree but we are together on this one.

[Johpa]

I would like to see Israel abide by certain globally accepted ethical principals.

That's it.

I would like to see both sides abide by such principles. But, alas, such ethical principles as you and I may imagine are far, far from being globally accepted. For example, there are over one billion Chinese who are perfectly comfortable with the Chinese occupation of Tibet and only a tiny handful of westerners who raise even a meek voice in protest. As for Israelis and Arabs, both sides continue to suffer, for far too many decades, from a total failure of political leadership.

[Jingthing]

I would like to see Israel abide by certain globally accepted ethical principals.

That's it.

I would like to see both sides abide by such principles. But, alas, such ethical principles as you and I may imagine are far, far from being globally accepted. For example, there are over one billion Chinese who are perfectly comfortable with the Chinese occupation of Tibet and only a tiny handful of westerners who raise even a meek voice in protest. As for Israelis and Arabs, both sides continue to suffer, for far too many decades, from a total failure of political leadership.

You raise a good point. So many people in the world for some strange reason (not really a mystery ) amplify the faults of Israel totally OUT OF PERSPECTIVE compared to the many (AND WORSE) faults of a number of other nations in the world today. That's why many people, including me, take criticism of Israel with a grain of Dead Sea Salt ... that doesn't mean there is not plenty to criticize about the Israeli government though.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

The Jews who migrated to Palestine after World War 2 are not descendants of the Hebrews you read about in the Bible. They are descended from Khazars in central Asia, near present-day Russian Georgia, who converted to Judaism in 800AD. Khazaria fell a century later and the descendants of the converted Jews migrated northward into Russia and west into Europe.

This group of Jews, called Ashkenazi, are not descended from any of the 12 tribes described in the Bible. DNA tests confirm this, as does their pale skin that makes it clear they are not originally from the Middle East.

...

Nope. I realize the Khazar MYTH is seen as propaganda fuel by anti-Zionists, to give them ammunition that Ashkanazi Jews have no place in Israel ...

Even it were true, it wouldn't matter, Zionism is about a homeland for the Jewish people ... no matter their genetics. Anyway, let's bury this MYTH, OK?

Jews are not descended from Khazars, Hebrew University historian says

The claim that today’s Ashkenazi Jews are descended from Khazars who converted in the Middle Ages is a myth, according to new research by a Hebrew University historian.

The Khazar thesis gained global prominence when Prof. Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University published “The Invention of the Jewish People” in 2008. In that book, which became a best seller and was translated into several languages, Sand argued that the “Jewish people” is an invention, forged out of myths and fictitious “history” to justify Jewish ownership of the Land of Israel.

Now, another Israeli historian has challenged one of the foundations of Sand’s argument: his claim that Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the people of the Khazar kingdom, who in the eighth century converted en masse on the instruction of their king. In an article published this month in the journal “Jewish Social Studies,” Prof. Shaul Stampfer concluded that there is no evidence to support this assertion.

“Such a conversion, even though it’s a wonderful story, never happened,” Stampfer said.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/1.601287

[RickBradford]

The BBC has run about 10 reports on the murdered Palestinian compared with 2 on the three murdered Israelis.

That seems about right -- BBC editorial thinking regards a Palestinian life as 15 times as valuable as a Jewish one.

[simple1]

The BBC has run about 10 reports on the murdered Palestinian compared with 2 on the three murdered Israelis.

That seems about right -- BBC editorial thinking regards a Palestinian life as 15 times as valuable as a Jewish one.

Don't think your 'facts' stack up e.g.

An extensive list of news stories and video reports appeared on the BBC website describing how Israel is 'united in grief', alongside stories titled, 'Netanyahu: "Wide and deep chasm" between Israel and enemies', 'Thousands gather for Israeli teenagers' funerals', 'Grief and anger after Israel teenager deaths', and 'On road where teens vanished'.

It would be accurate the Palestianian boys murder has had extensive coverage in the past few days, but most of that seems to focus on riots, potential of additional violence by way of revenge killings, calls for calm by both Abbas and Israeli govt etc

[JohnnyJazz]

Palestinian boy Mohammed Abu Khdeir was burned alive, says official

Mohamed Abu Khdeir, the Palestinian teenager who was kidnapped and murdered on Wednesday in a suspected revenge killing by Israeli extremists, was burned alive after suffering a head injury, the Palestinian attorney general has claimed

The allegation is said to be based on initial postmortem findings that discovered soot deposits in his lungs suggesting he was still breathing when he was set on fire.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/05/palestinian-boy-mohammed-abu-khdeir-burned-alive

[JohnnyJazz]

US ‘profoundly troubled’ by brutal beating of Palestinian teen who turned out to be American

The US has condemned the beating and detention of a 15-year-old Palestinian-American by Israeli police after a massive social media campaign exploded in cyber space decrying the actions and hypocrisy of Israeli authorities.

“We can confirm that Tarek Khdeir, an American citizen, is being held by Israeli authorities in Jerusalem. [Tarek Abu Khdeir ] was visited by an official from the US Consulate General in Jerusalem today,” US State Department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, said in a press release.

The US is “profoundly troubled” by reports that the teenager was “severely beaten while in police custody” while visiting Israel on vacation from Tampa Florida, and strongly condemns “any excessive use of force.”

http://rt.com/usa/170692-us-palestinian-israel-brutal-beating/

Edited July 6, 2014 by JohnnyJazz

[Morch]

Israeli police arrest six suspects in murder of Palestinian teen

In a dramatic development, it was revealed Sunday that Israeli police arrested six suspects in the murder of a Palestinian teen.

Police suspect that the motive behind the murder of 16-year-old Mohammed Abu Khdeir, whose body was found in the Jerusalem Forest on Wednesday, was nationalistic, suggesting the perpetrators were Jewish extremists.

Police have been investigating various avenues in the teen's death, including criminal or personal motives. But an official told the Associated Press on Sunday that evidence points toward Jewish extremists.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.603317

[ClutchClark]

US profoundly troubled by brutal beating of Palestinian teen who turned out to be American

The US has condemned the beating and detention of a 15-year-old Palestinian-American by Israeli police after a massive social media campaign exploded in cyber space decrying the actions and hypocrisy of Israeli authorities.

We can confirm that Tarek Khdeir, an American citizen, is being held by Israeli authorities in Jerusalem. [Tarek Abu Khdeir ] was visited by an official from the US Consulate General in Jerusalem today, US State Department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, said in a press release.

The US is profoundly troubled by reports that the teenager was severely beaten while in police custody while visiting Israel on vacation from Tampa Florida, and strongly condemns any excessive use of force.

http://rt.com/usa/170692-us-palestinian-israel-brutal-beating/

Thanks for introducing this related topic.

Look at that young kid, whats he all of 50 kilos? Laying on the ground with no movement at all while getting the crap beat and kicked out of him after he is cuffed.

Where is the US outrage?

Edited July 6, 2014 by ClutchClark

[Pralaad]

US profoundly troubled by brutal beating of Palestinian teen who turned out to be American

The US has condemned the beating and detention of a 15-year-old Palestinian-American by Israeli police after a massive social media campaign exploded in cyber space decrying the actions and hypocrisy of Israeli authorities.

We can confirm that Tarek Khdeir, an American citizen, is being held by Israeli authorities in Jerusalem. [Tarek Abu Khdeir ] was visited by an official from the US Consulate General in Jerusalem today, US State Department spokeswoman, Jen Psaki, said in a press release.

The US is profoundly troubled by reports that the teenager was severely beaten while in police custody while visiting Israel on vacation from Tampa Florida, and strongly condemns any excessive use of force.

http://rt.com/usa/170692-us-palestinian-israel-brutal-beating/

Thanks for introducing this related topic.

Look at that young kid, whats he all of 50 kilos? Laying on the ground with no movement at all while getting the crap beat and kicked out of him after he is cuffed.

Where is the US outrage?

Tell me again what was this15 year old, 50 kilo kid, an American tourist doing in the middle of the riots throwing stones and whatever else at police and IDF?

Then you will ALSO note officer responsible for assault will be charged and and convicted.

Strangely though there are 2 video clips, one made from across the road and one made from the roof of a building and in both neither party screamed or did anything to help.

Why is that?

Remember this? Palestine Arab propaganda stage fake Israeli “attacks” for media http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/remember-this-palestine-arab-propaganda-stage-fake-isreali-attacks-for-media/

[ClutchClark]

Thanks for introducing this related topic.

Look at that young kid, whats he all of 50 kilos? Laying on the ground with no movement at all while getting the crap beat and kicked out of him after he is cuffed.

Where is the US outrage?

Tell me again what was this15 year old, 50 kilo kid, an American tourist doing in the middle of the riots throwing stones and whatever else at police and IDF?

Then you will ALSO note officer responsible for assault will be charged and and convicted.

Strangely though there are 2 video clips, one made from across the road and one made from the roof of a building and in both neither party screamed or did anything to help.

Why is that? Remember this? Palestine Arab propaganda stage fake Israeli attacks for media http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/remember-this-palestine-arab-propaganda-stage-fake-isreali-attacks-for-media/

Whoa...slow down sport. Don't try wrangling me into your politics.

I am simply curious how Americans will respond now that an american youth has been brutalized.

As for your various arguments, the only one that is relevant is a 15-year old American boy that weighed maybe 50 kilos is getting brutally assaulted while unconscious by IPF because he made the choice to visit his relatives and during that visit his young 40 kilo cousin was burned alive.

And apparently you feel all of this is OK becuase of your politics.

Cheers

[Jingthing]

One of the Israeli teens recently murdered also had American nationality.

Sure, the American connection for both that Israeli teen and the beat up American kid of Palestinian ethnicity will get more attention in the USA because of that aspect.

There is no shortage of things to be outraged about.

Solutions? Thin on the ground.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Jingthing

[Pralaad]

Thanks for introducing this related topic.

Look at that young kid, whats he all of 50 kilos? Laying on the ground with no movement at all while getting the crap beat and kicked out of him after he is cuffed.

Where is the US outrage?

Tell me again what was this15 year old, 50 kilo kid, an American tourist doing in the middle of the riots throwing stones and whatever else at police and IDF?

Then you will ALSO note officer responsible for assault will be charged and and convicted.

Strangely though there are 2 video clips, one made from across the road and one made from the roof of a building and in both neither party screamed or did anything to help.

Why is that? Remember this? Palestine Arab propaganda stage fake Israeli attacks for media http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/remember-this-palestine-arab-propaganda-stage-fake-isreali-attacks-for-media/

Whoa...slow down sport. Don't try wrangling me into your politics.

I am simply curious how Americans will respond now that an american youth has been brutalized.

As for your various arguments, the only one that is relevant is a 15-year old American boy that weighed maybe 50 kilos is getting brutally assaulted while unconscious by IPF because he made the choice to visit his relatives and during that visit his young 40 kilo cousin was burned alive.

And apparently you feel all of this is OK becuase of your politics.

Cheers

Well sport you going to love this.

This is a statement by the father according to RT source http://rt.com/usa/170692-us-palestinian-israel-brutal-beating/

The boy's father Salahedeen Khdeir said that Tarek was visiting his uncle’s house in an area where clashes continue between Israeli forces and Palestinians when he and five other teenagers were assaulted in the yard by two masked Israeli police agents.

And this is interview of the father, Is father confused? or hard to remember the truth when lying? or has media cooked up a nice story?

In the interview father claims boy was walking somewhere and soldiers were hiding somewhere and there were no rocks or anything and he was taken somewhere from where he was walking, which was also somewhere. Was not boy at his uncles house? .

http://bcove.me/4udumdap

My various arguments? what are those?

Lets see, 2 clips of close proximity but no one tried to help

Father's story do not match

And arab track record of making fake evidence.

But apparently you feel its ok to convict someone who is NOT guilty because it fits into your politics

Edited July 6, 2014 by Pralaad

[ClutchClark]

One of the Israeli teens recently murdered also had American nationality.

Sure, the American connection for both that Israeli teen and the beat up American kid of Palestinian ethnicity will get more attention in the USA because of that aspect.

There is no shortage of things to be outraged about.

Solutions? Thin on the ground.

Jing, all I was trying to ask.

I wonder if Americans are able to look at this outside of the context on their pre-existing belief systems surrounding that region. As for me, my primary concern is that an American child was brutally assaulted by the police authority in what we would likely consider a hate crime by American standards.

Thanks Jing.

[Pralaad]

One of the Israeli teens recently murdered also had American nationality.

Sure, the American connection for both that Israeli teen and the beat up American kid of Palestinian ethnicity will get more attention in the USA because of that aspect.

There is no shortage of things to be outraged about.

Solutions? Thin on the ground.

Jing, all I was trying to ask.

I wonder if Americans are able to look at this outside of the context on their pre-existing belief systems surrounding that region. As for me, my primary concern is that an American child was brutally assaulted by the police authority in what we would likely consider a hate crime by American standards.

Thanks Jing.

Did you mean ALLEGEDLY brutally assaulted?

And did you want to say ALLEGEDLY by police authority?

[ClutchClark]

Thanks for introducing this related topic.

Look at that young kid, whats he all of 50 kilos? Laying on the ground with no movement at all while getting the crap beat and kicked out of him after he is cuffed.

Where is the US outrage?

Tell me again what was this15 year old, 50 kilo kid, an American tourist doing in the middle of the riots throwing stones and whatever else at police and IDF?

Then you will ALSO note officer responsible for assault will be charged and and convicted.

Strangely though there are 2 video clips, one made from across the road and one made from the roof of a building and in both neither party screamed or did anything to help.

Why is that? Remember this? Palestine Arab propaganda stage fake Israeli attacks for media http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/09/28/remember-this-palestine-arab-propaganda-stage-fake-isreali-attacks-for-media/

Whoa...slow down sport. Don't try wrangling me into your politics.

I am simply curious how Americans will respond now that an american youth has been brutalized.

As for your various arguments, the only one that is relevant is a 15-year old American boy that weighed maybe 50 kilos is getting brutally assaulted while unconscious by IPF because he made the choice to visit his relatives and during that visit his young 40 kilo cousin was burned alive.

And apparently you feel all of this is OK becuase of your politics.

Cheers

Well sport you going to love this.

This is a statement by the father according to RT source http://rt.com/usa/170692-us-palestinian-israel-brutal-beating/

The boy's father Salahedeen Khdeir said that Tarek was visiting his uncles house in an area where clashes continue between Israeli forces and Palestinians when he and five other teenagers were assaulted in the yard by two masked Israeli police agents.

And this is interview of the father, Is father confused? or hard to remember the truth when lying? or has media cooked up a nice story?

In the interview father claims boy was walking somewhere and soldiers were hiding somewhere and there were no rocks or anything and he was taken somewhere from where he was walking, which was also somewhere. Was not boy at his uncles house? .

http://bcove.me/4udumdap

My various arguments? what are those?

Lets see, 2 clips of close proximity but no one tried to help

Father's story do not match

And arab track record of making fake evidence.

But apparently you feel its ok to convict someone who is NOT guilty because it fits into your politics

I have no politics about the region, except to think all sides still exist in a stone age mentality.

I have no idea what you are babbling about guilty/not guilty.

It appears you are saying that the beating was fabricated. I don't know if you have that on some authority or if your tinfoil hat quit working but we have obviously hit an impasse in our own discussion.

Perhaps you could provide the evidence that the boy's assault was a hoax.

Cheers

[ClutchClark]

Jing, all I was trying to ask.

I wonder if Americans are able to look at this outside of the context on their pre-existing belief systems surrounding that region. As for me, my primary concern is that an American child was brutally assaulted by the police authority in what we would likely consider a hate crime by American standards.

Thanks Jing.

Did you mean ALLEGEDLY brutally assaulted?

And did you want to say ALLEGEDLY by police authority?

No, had I intended to write "allegedly" then I would have.

Do you think you can control your emotions a little bit pralaad? You are on the verge of hysteria.

[Pralaad]

I have no politics about the region, except to think all sides still exist in a stone age mentality.

I have no idea what you are babbling about guilty/not guilty.

It appears you are saying that the beating was fabricated. I don't know if you have that on some authority or if your tinfoil hat quit working but we have obviously hit an impasse in our own discussion.

Perhaps you could provide the evidence that the boy's assault was a hoax.

Cheers

It is evident you do not have any idea.

I already did provide evidence that the video and the whole story does not add up, i already did provide evidence that Arabs have a history of falsifying the truth and editing video's, i already provided evidence either the father or the boy or both are lying,BUT if you have problems processing the information, then i suggest you ask some one else to explain it for you in simpler terms,.

PS., in case you have missed the headlines, the ones allegedly responsible for the murder of the arab boy are already arrested, while the ones responsible for the murder of 3 jewish boys are still enjoying their freedom,

Edited July 6, 2014 by Pralaad

[Morch]

The USA made its displeasure known to Israeli authorities regarding the beating of the cousin. Israeli police released a few announcements - some seem to suggest that the clips aren't telling the whole story. Later announcements were more general, with a mention police actions will be checked. Israel's Justice Ministry said that Internal Affairs are on it.

Personally, I think that it doesn't matter much what they claim the "whole story" is. Short of the teen lobbing a bomb, shooting or carrying a firearm - they obviously got him under control, and went way over the top. I acknowledge that things like this can happen in a messy situation, but still, that's not a really good justification. Considering the pressure put on by the USA on this one, it will probably not be that easily wiped under the carpet.

There are claims that the family's versions of events to not match and that clips may have been edited or cut. No idea about the clips, but again - what is seen is over the top for most situation, then again, wasn't there and not discounting the possibility, although not finding it very likely. The family's versions do not seem that contradictory to me, could be chalked down to confusion and to language issues. Again, unless the teen did something really extreme, it shouldn't

matter.