British Man Found Shirtless and Agitated on Pattaya Roadside

[ll2]

Honda brought the latest cbr1000rr from Japan finally.

I really want to get one soon as honda is my first priority if it comes to bikes and its price at 630 k thb is really good as a liter bike.

For this new model, finally honda removed the speed limiter from the bike so it ca go up to 300 kph indicated and more non indicated.

But engine is still 123 hp Japanese spec which will be around 100 hp at the rear wheel. This is a big comprise if you ask me on a liter bike as this makes it equal with a 600 c super sport.

Although they say, they can de restrict it but i am looking it over the net and yes you can but it comes with some glitches and an extra expense of around 50 k.

When i complained to honda guys why they did not bring a full spec in Thailand as here is not Japan, they claimed emission and some other rules. Than i told them how come yamaha and suzuki and ducati can sell full spec bikes if it is emission and some other rules, they said what yamaha, suzuki, ducati playing with the documentation on their liter bikes and this way they can get approval from related government agencies. They proposed the same to the head of Honda bikes and the guy refused it as a responsible person sure doing such things will bring shame and legal issues to Honda name.

Really not sure if Honda guys say the truth or hope they are not confused or something.

I know California - which has similar emission standards as Thailand - is getting also a lower spec cbr1000rr different from other 49 states.

also they dont have red color anymore.

So, all becoming more confusing.

I really want this bike man but this restriction is putting me off.

so, anyone knows if japanese spec cbr1000rr can be fully derestricted.

is it meaningful to buy it as japanese spec?

[ttakata]

This Honda makes no sense for the money.

I would much rather get an MV Agusta Brutale for 700K and ride Italian art.

[JonnyF]

I wouldn't buy this for 2 reasons...

1. it's restricted

2. new 2015 models are just around the corner (I think there will be some big changes for 2015 although not necessarily on the Honda, more likely on Yamaha and possibly BMW).

Edited July 7, 2014 by JonnyF

[RubberSideDown]

No way is that bike getting anywhere close to 300kph with 123hp (actually it's closer to 116hp, which is the federal regulation for a 1000cc bike in Japan). It doesn't need a limiter.

The Big Wing guys sound pretty clueless- it's a Japanese company, and they bring in their Japanese-spec bikes as that's what's made for their market- Suzuki, Yamaha, and Kawasaki don't even make literbikes for their domestic market (only Honda does), so there aren't restricted versions to export (if you want to buy a ZX-10R in Japan, you actually have to buy it as an 'import' and pay additional taxes- I lived there and owned a few large-displacement unrestricted bikes)- it would be too expensive for them to bring in the non-restricted CBR-1000RR, and there's no way it would be under 700K (it would be ~800K). It's why all the other literbikes are more expensive than the CBR-1000RR, and Honda does better by undercutting their prices than it would do by selling the top-spec bike.

It's not a 'face' issue, but, rather, it's a smart economic decision- it's a 'cheap' literbike in an expensive market as the Japan-spec version is cheaper than the international model, so it's cheaper in LOS- on a cost basis, the rest of the Big-Four can't compete.

California gets an EVAP emissions system, and might be a couple horsepower down from the 49-state bike, but nothing like the Japan-spec version (there are some differences in the Euro ZX-10R and US version, i.e., but it's an easily-defeated ECU flash- it's not near the Japan-spec for a 1000cc bike)- no other literbikes have this issue to my knowledge.

You can get a US-spec version from Red Baron- I realize you have a connection with Big Wing, but they will probably not ever be offering what you want.

Edited July 7, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[RubberSideDown]

Red Baron will do the derestriction for 7K + the cost of parts (though your engine warranty will be voided)- they've probably done quite a few already:

[ATF]

II2, RSD is correct all Jap market bikes are detuned, just check out the Jap Panigale it's crap.

You should really be looking at a grey market SP.

Most bikes except Euro versions have fuel canisters to re-cycle fumes from the tank and crankcase breathers also re-cycling oil vapour to the air box. This interrupts proper fueling.

Even if you get an SP you will need to get a full exhaust and re-flash the ECU and/or get a Power Commander to get it's full power.

It should be pulling 150+ BHP at the rear wheel.

[ll2]

No way is that bike getting anywhere close to 300kph with 123hp (actually it's closer to 116hp, which is the federal regulation for a 1000cc bike in Japan). It doesn't need a limiter.

The Big Wing guys sound pretty clueless- it's a Japanese company, and they bring in their Japanese-spec bikes as that's what's made for their market- Suzuki, Yamaha, and Kawasaki don't even make literbikes for their domestic market (only Honda does), so there aren't restricted versions to export (if you want to buy a ZX-10R in Japan, you actually have to buy it as an 'import' and pay additional taxes- I lived there and owned a few large-displacement unrestricted bikes)- it would be too expensive for them to bring in the non-restricted CBR-1000RR, and there's no way it would be under 700K (it would be ~800K). It's why all the other literbikes are more expensive than the CBR-1000RR, and Honda does better by undercutting their prices than it would do by selling the top-spec bike.

It's not a 'face' issue, but, rather, it's a smart economic decision- it's a 'cheap' literbike in an expensive market as the Japan-spec version is cheaper than the international model, so it's cheaper in LOS- on a cost basis, the rest of the Big-Four can't compete.

California gets an EVAP emissions system, and might be a couple horsepower down from the 49-state bike, but nothing like the Japan-spec version (there are some differences in the Euro ZX-10R and US version, i.e., but it's an easily-defeated ECU flash- it's not near the Japan-spec for a 1000cc bike)- no other literbikes have this issue to my knowledge.

You can get a US-spec version from Red Baron- I realize you have a connection with Big Wing, but they will probably not ever be offering what you want.

but what about the restricted kawa zx10r they were selling here in Thailand officially before?

also yamaha sells r1 in Japan and again restricted to 140 hp.

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/mc/sportsbike/yzf-r1/spec.html

honda states cbr1000rr as 123 ps - 121 hp at their Japanese website.

http://www.honda.co.jp/CBR1000RR/spec/

also as you can see, honda cbr1000rr sp is made in Japan and exported to the rest of the world from there.

and still, their specs are restricted

http://www.honda.co.jp/CBR1000RR/spec/

so it means, they can import USA spec bikes to Thailand instead of restricted cbr1000rr for japanese market if they want.

i dont think so any difference in pricing and most probably restricting a bike might be a bit costly and time consuming.

[RubberSideDown]

That's not the export version of the CBR1000RR SP- it's the Japanese domestic version. They can sell whatever they want in Japan as far as the models go, but- as I said- the derestricted versions are subject to different taxes and are more expensive. The R1 has been available through some Japanese dealers since 1997, but only as an 'import'- as far as the power goes, it most likely has an exhaust that's forced to comply with emissions standards.

I didn't say they couldn't export derestricted bikes to LOS- I said if they did they'd be more expensive. Would the bike be as attractive to you at 750K-800K? I doubt it- you see a potential good deal at 630K if you can derestrict it. If they bring in the full-power version, they won't sell as many as there would be price parity. Why would the Honda be so much cheaper than the other literbikes otherwise? They'd own the class if they could bring their full-power bike in for under 650K- there's nothing the other manufacturers can do that Honda can't.

The ZX-10R they sold before wasn't a Japanese-spec bike, but rather a bike that was restricted for other markets- it was a real problem for Kawasaki, and they no longer offer that version and now only offer Euro and US versions. Look at the Kawasaki Japan site and you won't see it listed.

http://www.kawasaki-motors.com/mc/lineup/

Edited July 7, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[ll2]

That's not the export version of the CBR1000RR SP- it's the Japanese domestic version. They can sell whatever they want in Japan as far as the models go, but- as I said- the derestricted versions are subject to different taxes and are more expensive. The R1 has been available through some Japanese dealers since 1997, but only as an 'import'- as far as the power goes, it most likely has an exhaust that's forced to comply with emissions standards.

I didn't say they couldn't export derestricted bikes to LOS- I said if they did they'd be more expensive. Would the bike be as attractive to you at 750K-800K? I doubt it- you see a potential good deal at 630K if you can derestrict it. If they bring in the full-power version, they won't sell as many as there would be price parity. Why would the Honda be so much cheaper than the other literbikes otherwise? They'd own the class if they could bring their full-power bike in for under 650K- there's nothing the other manufacturers can do that Honda can't.

The ZX-10R they sold before wasn't a Japanese-spec bike, but rather a bike that was restricted for other markets- it was a real problem for Kawasaki, and they no longer offer that version and now only offer Euro and US versions. Look at the Kawasaki Japan site and you won't see it listed.

http://www.kawasaki-motors.com/mc/lineup/

yep, they can.

but why does a full spec bike should be more expensive? most probably, it is rolling down from the production lines as full spec and then, they change some parts after to make it restricted or they have a different production line for them. both means, it should be more expensive than the production of a full spec bike, no?

I understand, in japan different taxes for full spec bikes most probably just bc it has higher power and emissions etc.

but in Thailand, no hp or emission barrier for taxes. just cc.

I will go talk with Red Baron and possibly ask them some proof such as a dyno sheet and guarantee of work.

Maybe can find some owners in Thailand been there done that. lets see.

also no red color this year which makes me think twice!

thanks rsd.

[RubberSideDown]

There's probably some sort of tax agreement between LOS and Japan for their domestic bikes- how else could they get the restricted CBR-1000RR in so much cheaper than the full-power GSXR-1000 or R1? Why can't Red Baron undercut them when they can undercut every other manufacturer? Emissions can't be the reason they aren't bringing in the full power bikes as they're compliant everywhere else in the world- it's got to be money. It would seem like a no-brainer to bring in the full-power bike otherwise. Perhaps the lower horsepower specs have something go do with how they're taxed in LOS as well.

I'm very interested in what Red Baron has to say re: derestriction

[ATF]

There's probably some sort of tax agreement between LOS and Japan for their domestic bikes- how else could they get the restricted CBR-1000RR in so much cheaper than the full-power GSXR-1000 or R1? Why can't Red Baron undercut them when they can undercut every other manufacturer? Emissions can't be the reason they aren't bringing in the full power bikes as they're compliant everywhere else in the world- it's got to be money. It would seem like a no-brainer to bring in the full-power bike otherwise. Perhaps the lower horsepower specs have something go do with how they're taxed in LOS as well.

I'm very interested in what Red Baron has to say re: derestriction

Japanese bikes caught a tax break at the same time the relaxation of visa restrictions for Thais going to Japan were announced. As far as I know as long as the bike is manufactured in Japan by a Japanese company they are eligible for the tax break.

There must also be a BHP duty as well because when I was talking to the Yamaha guys about the R1 they made it clear that the bike was US spec and completely unrestricted.

[JonnyF]

I suspect it's nothing to do with tax or emissions or Honda's reluctance to break rules. I think that Honda Japan can't sell all these restricted bikes in their own market, they know it won't be competitively priced in any other market so they try and dump the leftovers on Thailand where the market is so skewed that it almost looks like a good deal.

If they can sell an unrestricted litre bike half way round the world (US) so cheap then I see no reason that they need to sell a choked version here for almost double the price. The Thai litre bike market is starving, so they think we'll eat anything. I'm almost tempted myself, but it doesn't smell so good once you get close. I think we might see a 2015 R1 for around 800k next year which makes this 3 year old (restricted) design from Honda look pretty average at 650k, especially once you spent 50k destricting it and invalidated the warranty.

Out of interest, is the VFR1200 etc choked as well? I don't believe so. That must be making a lot more power than this CBR1000RR bone they are throwing our way. So how are the saints at Honda getting the VFR through? Makes you wonder...

Edited July 7, 2014 by JonnyF

[RubberSideDown]

It's possible they're dumping bikes, but it would seem to make poor economic sense if they're being taxed at the same rate as other manufacturers. The R1 is about $500 more than the CBR in the US, but it's 150K more in LOS- the Gixxer 1K is about the same as the Honda, but also goes for ~800K like the Yamaha (and the Honda actually retails for about $500 more in Japan than the States). Honda would have to be willing to make practically nothing or even take a loss to sell bikes in LOS at current prices when they could just drop the domestic price and save themselves the trouble. I'd be surprised if they're just trying to get rid of them in the Thai market, but it's something I hadn't considered.

I think there's more to it, but who knows. If I wanted a Japanese literbike, I'd be looking at the 2014 ZX-10R that Red Baron just put on their site for 810K- it's the premier Big-Four 1000cc (at least until the new R1 comes out...)- more power, traction control, no derestriction issues, no warranty problems- for what will be less than a 100K difference once the Honda is derestricted (and I doubt it will ever be the same as a factory full-power model) it's well worth it.

[papa al]

LL, if you are uncomfortable racing your 650 in anything other than the beginners' class, as you previously posted, then moving up to a liter bike seems like a good plan.

[JonnyF]

I'm not 100% sure what the tax is on 1000cc Jap imports now, but if Suzuki can sell the V-Strom at around 350k then I'm pretty sure that 800k for a Jap litrebike is a case of the manufacturers taking too much profit and being reluctant to drop the price as the import tax reduces in ASEAN.

I know it's a different tax rate from 650 to 1000cc but the figures don't seem to balance. Seems like the OEM's are hanging on to the inflated prices as long as they can. Why aren't the prices coming down in line with the tax reduction? The Zx10r was the same price in 2008 as the 2014 bikes (except the castrated cbr) while other imported bikes like the V Strom and Gladius have arrived with sensible reductions. Probably just needs one of them to make an aggressive move on price and then we'll see the adjustment.

The MV Augusta Brutale is 800k and that's Euro exotica without the benefit of ASEAN tax breaks. Looks like a bargain in comparison.

[BSJ]

I would be inclined to buy something else to punish Honda for being such asses.

[RubberSideDown]

According to the Thai tax code, import tariffs levied on a new motorcycle are ~77%- the Big Four literbikes are all around $14,000 give-or-take- that's about 470K, and with the tax that comes to ~800K, which is where other manufacturers have their bikes priced (except for Honda). It's got to be the horsepower rating- Honda might have been able to work out some sort of discount based on it. There might be more to the tax code than what's translated and available, and Honda certainly has the pull to work out a 'sweetheart deal'. They're not just beating the other brands, but they're blowing them out of the water- that would seem to go beyond a simple discount to encourage sales. Maybe they have a way of lowering the declared value for tax purposes.

Considering how small the Japanese domestic market is for bikes over 400cc (based on their tiered license system) I don't think enough restricted versions of the CBR would have been produced to necessitate dumping them elsewhere.

Edited July 7, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[submaniac]

so, anyone knows if japanese spec cbr1000rr can be fully derestricted.

Actually there were a couple of threads buried somewhere here about deristricting bikes, the Kawasaki Ninja 1k and CBR1000RR. From what I remember, it isn't as easy as just swapping out the ecu's or reflashing the chips. IIRC the people that did it had to at least replace the wiring harness (which can be bought from USA salvaged bikes), and the throttle bodies and the airboxes are different too. I just kept reading about the problems. I don't even know if the derestrict came out properly tbh. 7K from Red Barron plus parts? I just don't think they can do it.

[RubberSideDown]

^

I agree that seems cheap. I don't think they're promising a return to full-power bike specs, but rather they can offer an increase over what Big Wing gives you.

The SumetCycle thread where Brian derestricted a bike and had huge problems makes me think that it might be impossible to do it cheaply or completely (I think at one point he lost his dashboard function, i.e.)- granted that was a while ago and the technique might have improved, but I'd never buy a 1000 from Big Wing expecting to derestrict it- I think it's not worth the hassle.

I mentioned in previous threads that I was going to put a deposit on a Honda 1K at the show in December when a salesman said the derestricted model was coming in May (which obviously didn't happen)- the GM then told me in no uncertain terms that it wasn't going to happen and he wouldn't take my money if a derestricted model was my condition for the order.

[JonnyF]

By my rough calculations, a 14000 dollar bike plus 77% is 24780 dollars which is 743k baht. So there is still room for Suzuki and Yamaha to drop their prices to try and get close to Honda. An unrestricted R1 or GSXR below 750k would be a much better deal than what Honda is offering.

You'd think it would be cheaper to transport them here, prepare them for sale, pay for the showrooms, sales staff etc. as well given the location, salaries etc. so maybe even a bit more room for manoeuvre on RRP.

But yes that Honda does look very cheap now, almost being sold at the equivalent of 12000 USD (cost?) before taxes are applied which is what led me to believe they might be getting rid of leftover Jap spec stock that no other country would go anywhere near.

[bramds]

The MV Augusta Brutale is 800k and that's Euro exotica without the benefit of ASEAN tax breaks. Looks like a bargain in comparison.

The Brutale is 980K baht and you can add 50K if you want the ABS version.

Talked to the sales guy at the Bangkok bike fest.

[RubberSideDown]

On XE (using today's exchange rate) $24,780 is 803,000 baht. Note the actual prices are ~$14,300 on average- 800K is the correct price with the tariff factored in- sure they can drop prices a bit, but they have to allow for currency fluctuations as well.

As I said, knowing the Japanese market and licensing system, perhaps 5% of Japanese riders are eligible to buy a bike over 400cc- Honda knows how many bikes they need to make, and I doubt there's a large surfeit of the domestic models as they don't need to manufacture that many of them. I rode in Japan for eight years, and a bike over 400cc was an unusual sight (due to the tiered licenses, there's basically no market for 600cc bikes there as riders who make the effort to qualify usually buy something pretty big- I would bet I didn't see 10 of them, and I commuted ~60km on a bike every weekday and rode most weekends- there were certainly 1000cc bikes around, but not a lot).

[RubberSideDown]

The MV Augusta Brutale is 800k and that's Euro exotica without the benefit of ASEAN tax breaks. Looks like a bargain in comparison.

The Brutale is 980K baht and you can add 50K if you want the ABS version.

Talked to the sales guy at the Bangkok bike fest.

The Italian manufacturers and KTM all gouge way over what they should be with the tariff (i.e. the Panigale and the 1290 Superduke, both of which should be ~1m-1.1m but go for 1.4m in LOS).

[JonnyF]

Yep my bad, I was using 30 for the exchange rate...

Still disappointing that the prices (and taxes) remain so high with these new ASEAN agreements coming into place. I was under the impression that was going to reduce these taxes, guess that was false hope. I'll have to check exactly what they say for myself when I have some free time as I've heard a few different versions on TV and yet prices on litre bikes are pretty much the same as 5 years ago (restricted cbr excluded).

[ATF]

Yep my bad, I was using 30 for the exchange rate...

Still disappointing that the prices (and taxes) remain so high with these new ASEAN agreements coming into place. I was under the impression that was going to reduce these taxes, guess that was false hope. I'll have to check exactly what they say for myself when I have some free time as I've heard a few different versions on TV and yet prices on litre bikes are pretty much the same as 5 years ago (restricted cbr excluded).

Don't forget that the Yen has depreciated by around 30% over the last year or so.

[RubberSideDown]

I think we'll see slight price drops, but nothing major. All the manufacturers need to do is stay a bit below what it would cost an individual to import a bike (if that's even still possible)- we're a captive market, and there's no real advantage in catering to the 'rich' riders who can afford something imported. Fewer choices also make it easier for manufacturers to set up a service and support structure in LOS, which will always be a somewhat limited market for 'big' bikes.

[JonnyF]

Yep my bad, I was using 30 for the exchange rate...

Still disappointing that the prices (and taxes) remain so high with these new ASEAN agreements coming into place. I was under the impression that was going to reduce these taxes, guess that was false hope. I'll have to check exactly what they say for myself when I have some free time as I've heard a few different versions on TV and yet prices on litre bikes are pretty much the same as 5 years ago (restricted cbr excluded).

Don't forget that the Yen has depreciated by around 30% over the last year or so.

Good point, in theory a weaker Yen should make Japanese exports less expensive for the rest of the world. Be nice if some of that saving was passed on to the consumer but even with the weaker Yen and ASEAN agreements, the price remains the same.

[ll2]

I suspect it's nothing to do with tax or emissions or Honda's reluctance to break rules. I think that Honda Japan can't sell all these restricted bikes in their own market, they know it won't be competitively priced in any other market so they try and dump the leftovers on Thailand where the market is so skewed that it almost looks like a good deal.

If they can sell an unrestricted litre bike half way round the world (US) so cheap then I see no reason that they need to sell a choked version here for almost double the price. The Thai litre bike market is starving, so they think we'll eat anything. I'm almost tempted myself, but it doesn't smell so good once you get close. I think we might see a 2015 R1 for around 800k next year which makes this 3 year old (restricted) design from Honda look pretty average at 650k, especially once you spent 50k destricting it and invalidated the warranty.

Out of interest, is the VFR1200 etc choked as well? I don't believe so. That must be making a lot more power than this CBR1000RR bone they are throwing our way. So how are the saints at Honda getting the VFR through? Makes you wonder...

honda vfr 1200 is not restricted somehow. this is what i dont understand!.

i rode both cbr1000rr and vfr 1200 on the track and vfr1200 was going faster as cbr1000rr is limited.

[ll2]

According to the Thai tax code, import tariffs levied on a new motorcycle are ~77%- the Big Four literbikes are all around $14,000 give-or-take- that's about 470K, and with the tax that comes to ~800K, which is where other manufacturers have their bikes priced (except for Honda). It's got to be the horsepower rating- Honda might have been able to work out some sort of discount based on it. There might be more to the tax code than what's translated and available, and Honda certainly has the pull to work out a 'sweetheart deal'. They're not just beating the other brands, but they're blowing them out of the water- that would seem to go beyond a simple discount to encourage sales. Maybe they have a way of lowering the declared value for tax purposes.

Considering how small the Japanese domestic market is for bikes over 400cc (based on their tiered license system) I don't think enough restricted versions of the CBR would have been produced to necessitate dumping them elsewhere.

also, guys dont forget, there is an effective agreement between Thailand and Japan regarding trade of goods which will be in full effect soon.

guys at bigwing told me before that they reduced the prices also due to this agreement which decreases custom duties. Actually they said, they can reduce the prices before but could not do it on time!

really, i dont see any reason why honda brings restricted cbr1000rr as anyway, all bikes are made in japan! Most probably, it is something about a tax reduction they get via emission tests or something else by importing a restricted one.

anyone knows clear information regarding Thai Japan trade agreement? all i know, custom duties are decreasing year by year and will be in full effect on 2015 or 2017.

but dont know the rate of decrease clearly. some says 30 percent, some says 10 percent.

thanks.

the xz10r at Red Baron is tempting. but what kind of guarantee red baron gives? plus i heard that you need to wait for parts and official kawa or honda dealers do nto service your bike.

i remember some people waiting for some parts for months from there.

also their add on derestricting cbr1000rr sounds not that reliable. first of all it is 7000 thb plus parts. Dont they know what parts needed and how much in advance? besides, it states like closest possible hp to Euro spec cbr1000rr.

I heard it work but it is not a flawless process.

c'mon honda!

[submaniac]

Ok a few things, with the 2015 date coming, you could import your own bike at the reduced rate from what I understand. The reduced tariff is just on any bike made in japan so as I understand I could ship my 06 cbr1krr. So if your gonna get a liter bike get it imported from the states not japan directly.

The cbr1000rr is a bitch and a half. Yes it was brian at Sumet cycle who tried to deristrict. Before that it was 'dunder' who had a zx-10 Kawasaki.

My cbr1krr that you have seen photos of here... I bought off an impound lot for $900 and rebuilt. It is in perfect shape now.

Anyways at the time Brian was looking into it I was looking into deristricting the bike took. A previous attempt was made by a guy in Russia and his attempts show that it's not just the ecu that is different, it is also the wiring harness itself. The restricted has extra wires which if you try to cut off to for no restricted ecu bike will not run. So to get it unrestricted you will need a ROW ecu, and harness. Honda is a weird company and that was not the only difference, but the restricted uses different throttle bodies so to deristrict you need new air box. Now what both Dundee and brian did is try to run a unit to piggy back ecu which unblocked the rev limiter. From what I understand it didn't work and as far as I know no one on this forum has had success bypassing a honda ecu. Way back when I was into running nsx's with forced induction. What me and my other friends learned is that Honda Ecu's do not work with piggy back units. So long story short, if you get a Thai spec bike, you will have to completely replace parts from ROW bikes. Buying the neutered cbr isn't much of a bargain because it will cost a lot to deristrict

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