Advice needed on debt recovery.

[hughben]

"Never lend money to family or friends [or hookers]" Unless you are prepared to write it off.

The guy starts a business and wants 'the easy life'.

No wonder he failed.

Did he have a business plan? I am sure a bank manager asked (saw it or not) and refused to loan him a penny.

[MonkeyLoo]

"Never lend money to family or friends [or hookers]" Unless you are prepared to write it off.

The guy starts a business and wants 'the easy life'.

No wonder he failed.

Did he have a business plan? I am sure a bank manager asked (saw it or not) and refused to loan him a penny.

He would never get a loan from a bank, but as i say he has repaid smaller loans i have given him previously which i guess led me to trust him.

Without his record of repayment i wouldnt have loaned him anything near what i did.

As i say, its not really the money more the betrayal of trust.

No worries, im sure his day will arrive.

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[GuestHouse]

Clarification.

I don't trust expats in Thailand, that said I have a couple of expat friends who, if they really needed money and I could help I would not hesitate to give them some money - a gift, not a loan.

The distinction I make between Thai people in Thailand and expats in Thailand is the Thais are the whole spectrum of people we can expect to find anywhere. So some bad apples but the vast majority are hard working people trying to live a decent life.

Expats are a self selected group, not representative of the wider society they came from - a disproportionate number of expats are on the run from something back home and/or running from that which they will never escape - themselves.

Little wonder they so often run with other people's money.

[NeverSure]

I don't think you have a binding contract. Australia's contract law is based in English Law just as the USA's is.

If the contract was entered into in Thailand, you have another can of worms for enforcement in Oz.

If enforceable in Oz, law requires 3 elements which you can prove, if you can prove you gave him the money. 1 & 2 are offer and acceptance. There's no other way he got the money other than those two present. 3 is "consideration" which means you gave him the money after the agreement was reached.

But there's also the element of "certainty" which is your problem, even though the contract doesn't have to be in writing:

Certainty:

2. The agreement may be uncertain because the terms are too vague or ambiguous for a meaning to be attributed by a court. 3. A particular promise may be illusory because the contract effectively gives the promisor an unfettered discretion as to whether to perform the promise. LINK

"Consideration" in contract law means for some form of payment. I think technically if there was no interest or other sort of bonus, the loan is not under verbal contract but is simply a loan between friends.

If this is a correct interpretation and if the case was taken to court, the result may well be a court order to repay at some paltry monthly amount....not worth the lawyers fees and bother.

If I have made the wrong interpretation of "consideration", then your point about uncertainty may well be the factor that makes a court case a waste of time and money.

As the OP said, he can suffer the financial loss. It's retribution he wants.

We don't disagree on "consideration." In this case it's paying the money, and other cases it might be something else of value such as getting a car and owing on it. Receiving the car is receiving consideration.

My issue is that if the loan was made in Thailand I don't know the law, and I also don't know how to collect a loan made under Thai law in Oz. I doubt if Oz courts would have jurisdiction over a loan made in Thailand.

Then of course there are the two issues of "certainty".

If he just wants retribution...

[MonkeyLoo]

Lets face it, even if it was legally enforcable in OZ or Thailand, if the guy is determined not to pay or cant pay then very little point in chasing him.

Living a life on the run cant be much fun.

If i were in his position i wouldnt sleep too well.

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[DLock]

I understand lending a mate money with no written agreements...we've all done it, and I have been burnt too.

But I learnt why contracts are useful and necessary and can save you a whole lot of stress later. Even a simple agreement is useful.

You cannot sell the debt. You have no evidence of a debt. You cannot recover in Australia if you "lent" it in Thailand...especially with no signed agreement.

It's really up to you how far you are prepared to go to get your money back...and if you are not prepared to carry out your threats, best you let it go.

...and learn from it.

[96tehtarp]

as we have no signed agreement i dont think that is possible?

Almost every shop, corner store, and mom and pop shop in Thailand sells promissory notes. They cost five baht or less. If you had one of those you could sell the debt.

I always do them, even with fiends and relatives just in case somebody dies before it gets paid back. That's a win-win for everybody.

I'm sorry to hear about your dilemma.

Thanks for the advice.

I think that would work in Thailand but hes fled to Australia, a wanted man in Thailand by many i doubt he will return.

You are welcome. It wasn't really advice.

I'm not sure about law in Australia. As a good general rule anywhere, never underestimate the value of a written agreement signed in ink and witnessed in ink. It would probably be binding in Australia as well.

I've run out of fingers and toes to count all the people I know who have been cheated for lack of a five baht signed inked piece of paper.

Edited July 8, 2014 by 96tehtarp

[MonkeyLoo]

I understand lending a mate money with no written agreements...we've all done it, and I have been burnt too.

But I learnt why contracts are useful and necessary and can save you a whole lot of stress later. Even a simple agreement is useful.

You cannot sell the debt. You have no evidence of a debt. You cannot recover in Australia if you "lent" it in Thailand...especially with no signed agreement.

It's really up to you how far you are prepared to go to get your money back...and if you are not prepared to carry out your threats, best you let it go.

...and learn from it.

Its really down to the debtor as to how far he wants things to go before he starts paying.

Yes, i can take the loss but why should i?

If i had robbed a friend i would expect repercussions. Its something i would never do. but we all have different moral values.

Lesson learned, and sadly i would never loan money again. Even with a written agreement.

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[choochoo]

In the UK, me

Offer it up for sale at 50% and see if you get any offers. If you fon't - I know a man.

Offer it first because the man I know I will split the next time I see him.

and if this man doesnt come thru. I know another man...........................lol.

[choochoo]

quote ' I can take the loss but it is more about the betrayal of trust now. ' unquote.

If you can take the lost then forget it, his skint anyhow.

As for you trusting !! lesson learnt err !

A good saying comes to mind from a old trusted friend from Yorkshire UK, " niether either be lender or borrower be." or somewhere along those lines.

its always about the money......................................

Who trust's men and their bargirls? only a fuul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no offense op.

[catweazle]

Find some helpful Russian bodybuilders and offer them 50% of whatever they can retrieve, or better - get real and put up with your losses. Expensive lesson though... hope you learn something from it.

[ezzra]

OP- my battery is crashing - I have a tax man 2 hours from Sydney - pm me

OP, take that man offer, that's the best you hope to recover, cut your losses and run,

unfortunately, I wish I have similar service here in Thailand, few people owe me big

time and the courts a re a joke and time wasting trying to recover money from

dead beats...

[soalbundy]

Nothing is more costly,nothing is more sterile,than vengeance. Winston Churchill

[soalbundy]

quote ' I can take the loss but it is more about the betrayal of trust now. ' unquote.

If you can take the lost then forget it, his skint anyhow.

As for you trusting !! lesson learnt err !

A good saying comes to mind from a old trusted friend from Yorkshire UK, " niether either be lender or borrower be." or somewhere along those lines.

Neither a borrower nor a lender be;

For loan oft loses both itself and friend.........Hamlet, Shakespeare

[Prof3934]

I had a similar experience with a Frenchman. He already had a business but cash flow problems. He wanted a business partner to lend 2million baht to be repaid at the end of 12 months. I met him and we got on well, despite the fact I was English!

I got a contract drawn up by a lawyer in Pattaya, and became a full- time working partner.

We were making household soft goods and were selling in all the major shopping malls and department stores.

All these shops displayed our products well, but paid for them monthly on goods sold. So they were holding our products free.

Each month there were amazing reasons why they would not pay us for the volume sold - you all know the classic reasons....the director isn't here today, wrong date on cheque, invalid signature and man more. So at the end of the year there was no money for me, and the French guy told me that all the money which we had managed to collect, he needed to look after his wife and kids.

So I saw the Thai lawyer who had drawn up the contract, and he told me he needed 10,000 baht up front to get things started! But he thought it impossible. I asked him why, and he said this is Thailand. You are both farangs.

I told my French partner I would go to the police and also notify the Press, as his wife was quite high up in the Government and was a signatory on my contract.

I had a shocking email back from him saying that I would be killed if I did anything, as it would only cost him 500 baht for someone local to do this. No-one wanted to help me and I was so frightened I simply lost my money to save my life.

When I passed the Soi with our factory, a few weeks later, it was gone, and a visit passed his house showed it empty!

I was new to Thailand but thought my money was safe as it was a legal partnership with another farang. Foolish me!

[MonkeyLoo]

OP- my battery is crashing - I have a tax man 2 hours from Sydney - pm me

OP, take that man offer, that's the best you hope to recover, cut your losses and run,

unfortunately, I wish I have similar service here in Thailand, few people owe me big

time and the courts a re a joke and time wasting trying to recover money from

dead beats...

I agree, too many pussies in this world.

One time a few years ago some deadbeat broke into my Dads house and took his pension money from his trouser pocket while he was sleeping.

Police came, knew who the guy was but did nothing.

Two weeks later my Dad had his pension money returned and the thief was found naked tied to a tree. It was 15 below.

Funny thing karma.

Things like that seemed to happen a lot in my home town.

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[silver sea]

quote ' I can take the loss but it is more about the betrayal of trust now. ' unquote.

If you can take the lost then forget it, his skint anyhow.

As for you trusting !! lesson learnt err !

A good saying comes to mind from a old trusted friend from Yorkshire UK, " niether either be lender or borrower be." or somewhere along those lines.

The quote, which is part of a father's advice to his son, is:

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be,

For loan oft loses both itself and friend,

And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry."

Your friend from Yorkshire got it off a bloke from Warwickshire. Indeed, in two years' time, we'll be celebrating, if that's the right word, on St George's Day, the 400th anniversary of his death.

To the OP, I'm very sorry to read what's happened to you. As you say, it's the betrayal of trust by someone you considered a friend that hurts.

Today, I have lent someone 20,000 THB to start up her own business. She got the other 80,000 THB from her mum. She is not a bar girl, and I am not romantically involved with her. Like most Thais, she works very hard, but aspires to start and run her own business. I shall shortly be returning to the UK, and she has promised to repay me when I return in October.

By coincidence, I thought of the quote above, when she asked me for the loan. On balance, though, I decided that it is a risk I can afford to take. It would be good to help someone else.

In an earlier post, you say that there is some admission by him of the debt and that he has made a few token payments to you. Was it just a verbal admission or was it by email?

Secondly, you know exactly where he is in Sydney. Has he returned to a house that he owns, or is he occupying a room in someone else's house?

You say that he has rejoined the rat race there. Does that mean he's working or is he claiming benefits?

How old is he?

Hope that this additional information can help others who are advising you on your next steps. On what you have said so far though, I'm not sure he would be worth pursuing. Would a debt collector be willing to buy the debt off you? I don't know how these things work. Presumably, he just pays you a nominal sum e.g. 500 THB, to take the debt off you, with a promise that he will then pay you 50% of whatever he subsequently recovers. Is he entitled to deduct any reasonable costs first, like enquiry agents and legal fees, before paying you 50% of what's left?

[soalbundy]

OP- my battery is crashing - I have a tax man 2 hours from Sydney - pm me

OP, take that man offer, that's the best you hope to recover, cut your losses and run,

unfortunately, I wish I have similar service here in Thailand, few people owe me big

time and the courts a re a joke and time wasting trying to recover money from

dead beats...

I agree, too many pussies in this world.

One time a few years ago some deadbeat broke into my Dads house and took his pension money from his trouser pocket while he was sleeping.

Police came, knew who the guy was but did nothing.

Two weeks later my Dad had his pension money returned and the thief was found naked tied to a tree. It was 15 below.

Funny thing karma.

Things like that seemed to happen a lot in my home town.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

15 below,the man could have died of exposure. Nothing quite like a charge of manslaughter to quicken the senses.

[arisaje]

Yeah if I was in your position I would sell the debt also, plenty of people knocking about that would buy it off you for 50%.

Come on guys......how you can 'sell a debt' on something, to a 3rd party agency, where there is no documented proof.

What debt collector would even waste their time for something that has no substantial evidence to back it up? It just doesn't happen regardless of who the debt collectors 'think' they are.

If you go after someone.....in a foreign country, accusing them of owing a 'third-party' money and harassing them for it.....its the debt collector/s that would end up being prosecuted or warned by the police.

[Vacuum]

Quote

I can take the loss but it is more about the betrayal of trust now.

In that case, you could try something like this:

[YeaBiGgiEs]

OP, I'm sorry.

The sad reality of this is everyone/everything has a price. With ever-changing times a nod of the head and a handshake can no longer seal a deal. Nowadays you need a team of attornies, a paralegal and a translator to buy a gallon of milk.

Theres a grooming/conditioning process that is done by people by building up a "credit history" and a persons/friends confidence in them til they get to that magic number where a friendship or loyalty has lesser value than the debt owed. A sad state of affairs.

I too have suffered a loss of a 10+ year friend that started out as small loans of help and now stands at 180,000b unpaid with no contact over a year now. Then there are others who sold me out for as little as 2000b. I am actually thankful for them being opportunists and living for the moment rather than plotting a scheme and taking me for much more.

As you said, a bad business deal is one thing but a friend/betrayal of trust is another..again with time changing so fast...that friend you met and made 10 years ago is also changing to the times. I'm afraid, as myself, you have no recourse and you should zero out your register as well as dropping a few levels of faith in there being many good people of moral, ethical standards remaining in this world.

As far as debt recovery..sure there are "collection" agencies of all sorts you could "hire" however through my life experiences, I have realized it just isn't worth the energy and added expenses of time and money from a legit collection agency to your darkest, dirtiest of soi mafias.

Good luck

Edited July 8, 2014 by YeaBiGgiEs

[maximillian]

Feel with the OP. Lent a 'friend' a fellow countryman, I knew for four years, 20.000 THB. He left Thailand without paying back.

Later on I learned that he has even cheated another friend for a mere 500 THB and his brother and mother repeatedly for much bigger amounts.

Shame on these low lives.

[Pattszero]

In the UK, me

Offer it up for sale at 50% and see if you get any offers. If you fon't - I know a man.

Offer it first because the man I know I will split the next time I see him.

and if this man doesnt come thru. I know another man...........................lol.

Grist to the mill sir - last one my pals did was 25 pence in the £ - they collected £8000 for an hours work.

Rarely does it come to violence - just the visit is enough

Guys like the OP's pal and that French guy rubber people for a living. My pals earn bouncing the rubber men. They deserve it - and it makes them think twice.

I totally forgot one of our tax men was in Oz - I'll try to get a hold of him. And this is not gangsterism - I am not a gangster in any way, shape, or form, snd never will be.

This is how you need to deal with the con men that set up criminal shell companies and rip people off

Put it this way - if my guys returned 50% of the money the boiler room boys collected you'd be cheering from the rooftops. It's just a sub-economy with its own rules.

[3NUMBAS]

its not that jet set monk is it ?

basically stupid idea without getting collateral at the time .

[Pattszero]

This thread has got me thinking - how to tax a dead man.

I was in Laos last July when one of my best pals died.

A guy raised an invoice for £22,000 against him.

Went to the funeral, and presented the invoice to widow and asked -

"How much equity is in your house?"

There was no bill - it was a scam.

How low can you go?

Someone else fixed it - honestly, it's unbelievable what some people will do.

[sanuk711]

quote ' I can take the loss but it is more about the betrayal of trust now. ' unquote.

If you can take the lost then forget it, his skint anyhow.

As for you trusting !! lesson learnt err !

A good saying comes to mind from a old trusted friend from Yorkshire UK, " niether either be lender or borrower be." or somewhere along those lines.

The quote comes from William Shakespeare Kawasaki...Hamlet, --neither a lender or borrower be for loan oft loses both itself and friend---although if your good Yorkie friend has to steal quotes somewhere----the Bard is as good as any.

Does remind me of a an old tale through

A tramp shuffles up to this Roller that is parked & taps on the window

The gent inside presses the button & the window lowers.

"S'cuse me Guv could you spare a shilling for a cup of tea?

The Toff looks down his nose & says--

"neither a lender or borrower be--William Shakespeare"

Presses the button & the window goes up leaving the tramp in the cold....

a few seconds of reflection latter the tramp taps the window again.

It glides down...............

C*NT........... D.H Lawrence

Edited July 8, 2014 by sanuk711

[jomcondo]

if anybody asks to borrow money from me?.........it's the end of the friendship/relationship.

NEVER LEND MONEY.

[landslide]

Unfortunately, I think this is one of those life's lessons learned situations. I had a similiar thing happened to me. I was in Thailand 4 years ago when I received a call from a friend of 35 years. He was desperate to cover some debts on his business and needed $100,000. I was returning to the USA the next week, so met with him and two other friends. I put up $40,000, my friends put up $30,000 each, with a pay on demand promissary note and a estimated repayment time of 6 months to each of us. 4 years later, he is now divorced, going through bankruptcy, unemployed (lost the business), lost his home to foreclosure, and I and my friends are out the cash. I am able to claim the loss on my taxes against income, so will recover about 25%. I and my friends honestly feel that he will attempt to pay us back sometime in the future, if he is at all capable. He is that kind of friend, but my loan fund is exhausted to anyone but family until and if I am repaid. The loss stung, but I would have regretted not attempting to help.

[MonkeyLoo]

OP- my battery is crashing - I have a tax man 2 hours from Sydney - pm me

OP, take that man offer, that's the best you hope to recover, cut your losses and run,

unfortunately, I wish I have similar service here in Thailand, few people owe me big

time and the courts a re a joke and time wasting trying to recover money from

dead beats...

I agree, too many pussies in this world.

One time a few years ago some deadbeat broke into my Dads house and took his pension money from his trouser pocket while he was sleeping.

Police came, knew who the guy was but did nothing.

Two weeks later my Dad had his pension money returned and the thief was found naked tied to a tree. It was 15 below.

Funny thing karma.

Things like that seemed to happen a lot in my home town.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

15 below,the man could have died of exposure. Nothing quite like a charge of manslaughter to quicken the senses.

yeah sadly he survived.

if I had gotten a hold of him after ripping my dad off he would be fuxxd

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[MonkeyLoo]

Unfortunately, I think this is one of those life's lessons learned situations. I had a similiar thing happened to me. I was in Thailand 4 years ago when I received a call from a friend of 35 years. He was desperate to cover some debts on his business and needed $100,000. I was returning to the USA the next week, so met with him and two other friends. I put up $40,000, my friends put up $30,000 each, with a pay on demand promissary note and a estimated repayment time of 6 months to each of us. 4 years later, he is now divorced, going through bankruptcy, unemployed (lost the business), lost his home to foreclosure, and I and my friends are out the cash. I am able to claim the loss on my taxes against income, so will recover about 25%. I and my friends honestly feel that he will attempt to pay us back sometime in the future, if he is at all capable. He is that kind of friend, but my loan fund is exhausted to anyone but family until and if I am repaid. The loss stung, but I would have regretted not attempting to help.

Well lets hope the <deleted>**er realises who his mates are. Or were.

Im tired of these idiots. If i were you i would shoot the f*****k

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