Israel prepares for ground military operation, 98 dead in Gaza Strip airstrikes

[boldface]

I wonder if in 50 yrs, Hamas will be regarded in the same light as the French and Jewish resistance movements prior to and during WW2? A lot of similarities, including a massive propaganda machine telling the world they are nothing but terrorists, and need to be killed. 

[dexterm]

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

I read your link. Looks like its only the Jerusalem Post and you who are discrediting the Goldstone Report.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone

 

So much easier for Netanyahu and Mark Regev to trot out their own version of events. Anyone who questions them such as the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israel's own B'Tselem (a group of prominent Israeli lawyers, academics, journalists, and members of the Knesset) must be biased. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem

 

Shoot the messenger, nmuddy the waters and ignore the facts. Israel's PR/credibilty is wearing thinner. Through social [media] the world can nowadays see through Israel's lies.

 

The truth will out ultimately.

[dexterm]

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

Israel isn't doing the same thing over and over again. Israel has never cooperated with an international inquiry!

 

Perhaps if Israel didn't forbid their own soldiers from even speaking to UN investigators, then we might have a chance of hearing the truth.

[ggold]

 

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

Israel isn't doing the same thing over and over again. Israel has never cooperated with an international inquiry!

 

Perhaps if Israel didn't forbid their own soldiers from even speaking to UN investigators, then we might have a chance of hearing the truth.

 

 

You won't hear the truth from the UN they are a bunch of Arab loving hypocrites. The UNHCR is far from neutral.  

[ggold]

 

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

I read your link. Looks like its only the Jerusalem Post and you who are discrediting the Goldstone Report.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone

 

So much easier for Netanyahu and Mark Regev to trot out their own version of events. Anyone who questions them such as the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israel's own B'Tselem (a group of prominent Israeli lawyers, academics, journalists, and members of the Knesset) must be biased. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem

 

Shoot the messenger, nmuddy the waters and ignore the facts. Israel's PR/credibilty is wearing thinner. Through social [media] the world can nowadays see through Israel's lies.

 

The truth will out ultimately.

 

 

That report was biased and everyone knows it.

 

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 
I read your link. Looks like its only the Jerusalem Post and you who are discrediting the Goldstone Report.

 

The Jerusalem Post, me and Richard Goldstone himself.  


We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/reconsidering-the-goldstone-report-on-israel-and-war-crimes/2011/04/01/AFg111JC_story.html

[CBR250]

 

 

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

I read your link. Looks like its only the Jerusalem Post and you who are discrediting the Goldstone Report.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone

 

So much easier for Netanyahu and Mark Regev to trot out their own version of events. Anyone who questions them such as the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israel's own B'Tselem (a group of prominent Israeli lawyers, academics, journalists, and members of the Knesset) must be biased. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem

 

Shoot the messenger, nmuddy the waters and ignore the facts. Israel's PR/credibilty is wearing thinner. Through social [media] the world can nowadays see through Israel's lies.

 

The truth will out ultimately.

 

 

That report was biased and everyone knows it.

 

 

 

 

 

Ah yes. Your good friend Everyone. What an impeccable source.
 

[dexterm]

 

 

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

Israel isn't doing the same thing over and over again. Israel has never cooperated with an international inquiry!

 

Perhaps if Israel didn't forbid their own soldiers from even speaking to UN investigators, then we might have a chance of hearing the truth.

 

 

You won't hear the truth from the UN they are a bunch of Arab loving hypocrites. The UNHCR is far from neutral.  

 

 

So you don't deny that Israel has never cooperated with a UN investigation. Thank you.

You seem to be at odds with UG's tried it once theory. Gotta get your story straight before you post.

[Ulysses G.]

You won't hear the truth from the UN they are a bunch of Arab loving hypocrites. The UNHCR is far from neutral.

Indeed. What a collection of hypocrites.

As for the UN, what countries are represented on its Human Rights Council? Well there are sensitive souls from Algeria and China and Cuba and Russia and Saudi Arabia to name just a few of the countries that, as we all know, that are bright, shining beacons of human rights. Unless you offend the people in power. - See more at: http://www.bernardgoldberg.com/israel-united-nations-crosshairs/?utm_source=BernardGoldberg.com+Newsletter&utm_campaign=9b34988da1-NEWSLETTER&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c1903183b6-9b34988da1-298481249#sthash.uPPpy4TZ.dpuf

[Ulysses G.]

The proof is there.
Hamas uses human shields to stop the IDF to hit them.
Which in fact is a warcrime.
Bastards!

They do indeed, but their supporters are all for it.
.
Let's state the obvious: No one likes to see dead children. Well, that's not completely true: Hamas does. They would prefer those children to be Jewish, but there is greater value to them if they are Palestinian. Outmatched by Israel's military, handicapped by rocket launchers with the steady hands of Barney Fife, Hamas is playing the long game of moral revulsion. With this conflict about to enter its third week, winning the PR war is the best Hamas can hope to achieve. Their weapon of choice, however, seems to be the cannon fodder of their own people, performing double duty in also sounding the drumbeat of Israeli condemnation. If you can't beat Iron Dome, then deploy sacrificial children as human shields.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/thane-rosenbaum-civilian-casualties-in-gaza-1405970362

[ggold]

 

 

 

 

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

Israel isn't doing the same thing over and over again. Israel has never cooperated with an international inquiry!

 

Perhaps if Israel didn't forbid their own soldiers from even speaking to UN investigators, then we might have a chance of hearing the truth.

 

 

You won't hear the truth from the UN they are a bunch of Arab loving hypocrites. The UNHCR is far from neutral.  

 

 

So you don't deny that Israel has never cooperated with a UN investigation. Thank you.

You seem to be at odds with UG's tried it once theory. Gotta get your story straight before you post.

If you can't make a constructive comment then why comment? You are trying to belittle other posters to try and win an argument. This is the second time you try to twist my comments to you're narrative. That is trolling. 

 

I do not agree with the way you are trying to paint the way Israel may or may not cooperate with the UN. The fact is the UN is biased.

 

http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1359197/k.6748/UN_Israel__AntiSemitism.htm

 

UN bias against Israel is overt in bodies such as the General Assembly, which each year passes some nineteen resolutions against Israel and none against most other member states, including the world's most repressive regimes.

[CBR250]

"I do not agree with the way you are trying to paint the way Israel may or may not cooperate with the UN. The fact is the UN is biased".

 

Of course the UN is biased. Otherwise the UN Security Council would ensure worldwide condemnation of Israel, and direct punitive actions such as trade boycotts against Israeli products, boycotts of arms sales from Israel, cultural exchanges etc. The current unofficial boycott of Israel is not enough. It would be constructive for peace if one of the permanent members of the UN wasn't so biased in favour of Israel.

 

[Ulysses G.]

 

Of course the UN is biased. 

 

 

Indeed they are. They are biased against Israel to the point of being corrupt. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjW_H1ydFas&index=2&list=PL8E1BA727A0E2DFC0

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgvldxE1hqI

[Morch]

 

 

 

Al Jazeera has been broadcasting pure propaganda about Israel for years, just like when they were helping out the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. I'm still glad that no one got hurt though.

"Al Jazeera, also financed by Hamas, plays an important role in Hamas' propaganda campaign. Al Jazeera does not even bother to appear as a reliable news outlet for the sake of appearance," he said. "All the big networks operate in Israel, some of them are not exactly pro-Zionist, and yet as a democratic state we allow them operate here. "In the case of Al Jazeera, it is not an issue of freedom of the media but of a terrorist wing that currently fights against Israel," he concluded.

The company is funded by Qatari owners, who Israeli believe to be financing Gaza militant group Hamas. The media organisation has seen three of its journalists ‒ Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed ‒ imprisoned in Egypt under Abdul Fattah al-Sisi's newly-elected regime for spreading "false news".

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israeli-military-fire-warning-shots-into-al-jazeera-office-1457698

 

Once again you have ignored the fundamentals of a rational discussion. If you include lengthy quotes about Hamas (or anything else), at least attribute the source. Anyone can say anything about anyone. It doesn't make it factual.

Your reference to the journalists from Al Jazeera who are jailed in Egypt makes no sense either in the context of this discussion. Spreading "false news"? Is the accusation accurate? Who says? What evidence is there that news they were reporting was "false"? How does this have any relevance to reports on Gaza?

At least Al Jazeera provide coverage of the Gaza situation, whereas the Israeli government will not allow their own media to comment. The Israeli media are only allowed to use information provided by the IDF. Not the most impartial source, even you must agree.

But if you feel that Al Jazeera is biased, and we know that the Israeli mainstream media are no more than lackeys of the government, then you maybe you will trust Israeli / Jewish sources offering factual information about the horrors being perpetrated in Gaza by the IDF. Try googling any of the following for some useful information:

* Gisha Legal Centre For Freedom of Movement.

* B'tselem.

* Gush Shalom

* Rabbis for Human Rights.

 

The other advantage of using these sights for information about Gaza is that they also highlight that there are Jewish people in Israel with strong sense of justice - and who reject the warmongering so popular amongst many Israelis.
 

 

 

The relevance of the Al-Jazeera case in Egypt is that the media outlet was supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood to a

degree the army authorities (and secular parties) deemed overboard. Whether one agrees with their journalists being

treated as they were is one thing, their coverage on Egypt cannot be said to have been very objective, though.

 

The same when it comes to the Hamas. By the way, those following Al-Jazeera may note that their coverage of events

in Syria and Iraq carries the same bias.

 

Israeli government does not allow their own media to comment? Are you for real? There's a barrage of news from local

media, and many quotes citing Israeli media sources on these topics. The claim about being allowed to use only IDF

provided information is simply untrue.

 

The organizations you mentioned cannot be said to be very impartial as well....not sure what you were getting at.
 

 

 

Well, I have read too many papers in the past few days to readily track down the source that noted Israeli journalists are not allowed into Gaza, and that their reports are based on information provided by the IDF. But trust me, this was reported in a credible publication. I have no interest in deceit. Disagreement yes, deceit no. If you know of Israeli journalists who are inside Gaza and writing about it, please refer me to them.

 

And at the end of the day no-one is impartial. But the organisations I proposed as sources are at least not mouthpieces for the Israeli government. Their vested interests are to ideals, not political deals or hidden agendas. As such, they are much better sources of balanced information than the inherently biased mainstream western and Israeli media. These organisations may be sympathetic to the plight of Palestinians, but as Jews and Israelis they cannot be accused of not caring for Israel, or of supporting any form of terrorism. As such, their information is far more credibile than most mainstream media outlets. In a nutshell, that is what I was getting at!

 

Perhaps more importantly for the future of international relations, the short list of organisations I provided are examples of Jewish and Israeli organisations that do not support the current brutal policies of the Israeli government. They are obviously in the minority in Israel, but they are a legitimate voice, and they are the only ones who give hope for a peaceful future for Israelis (and Palestinians). Peace will not come with stolen land and engendering more and more memories of loved ones killed. These organisations work from that reality, and prioritise peace, not revenge. While anger towards Hamas is understandable, any empathic person must acknowledge that there is fault on both sides of this conflict. Attributing blame and engendering hatred towards either side will maintain this current conflict into the lives of our grandchildren. And their grandchildren. Those of us who don't want that want more intelligent policies than blockades, warfare and propaganda that maintains anger, fear and suspicion. As Israel is the big kid on the block - militarily speaking - it is incumbent on them to make the first meaningful moves. Using the "peace process" as a smokescreen for a continuing land grab is particularly unhelpful, and is causing erosion of international support for Israel. They must sincerely attempt to get somewhere. Sadly, I suspect this will not begin with the current government. We can see this in the games played around the recent "ceasefire" proposed by Egypt, which was obviously never going to work, as it offered nothing to the beleagured Gazans. To blame Hamas for rejecting it is disingenuous. If positions were reversed, Israel would never have accepted it either.

 

 

Well, sorry - "trust me" is just not good enough. That's where crappy second hand cars at bargain prices come from.

 

Israeli reporters, for the most part are not in the front lines, and for anyone familiar with the geography of the Gaza Strip,

this sort of limits where they can go, even with IDF approval. As UG stated, there is certainly a risk, as Israelis, of being

targeted (or kidnapped). So yes, so far most Israeli reporters are outside of the Gaza Strip, there were a few more recent

reports from reporters joining troops, but still pretty limited. The underlying reason is security and rather than censorship.

While main stream Israeli media, especially TV channels is pretty much same same in its support for the operation, this

does not mean that foreign news video footage and visual information on the destruction and death toll in the Gaza Strip

are not being constantly aired.

 

I do not suggest that Israeli media does superb coverage on current events or that they are not biased. Just that it is not

quite as portrayed in your earlier post - there is no ban on using materials from foreign media sources, and reporters not

being allowed in the front lines is due to different consideration than attributed. Less state control, more like a measure of

self censorship and an over dose of patriotism.

 

There was a new story on Israel's channel 2 news just yesterday - featuring a reporter (Roni Daniel, I believe) covering

an infantry unit in Gaza.

 

Some of the NGOs mentioned were involved in some faulty figures presented and blundered reports in the past, and at

least in one major case had to retract and publish a correction. Incidentally, not all of the members/volunteers/workers

are necessarily Jews. While I do not think that they support terrorism, there is sometimes a certain one-sidedness found

in their reports. The information they provide is important, but not free of bias and mistakes. If one wishes to see it as

more objective than others, that is a choice and not a fact.

 

Peace is not made by NGOs. At least not in the Middle East. One of the issues plaguing the peace movement in Israel,

and indeed the left wing of Israeli politics, is a certain boneheaded naivety which assumes that resolving the conflict is

somehow within reach and it not being still a long drawn process. This continuous ignoring of harsh realities, makes for

a stark contrast when all hell breaks loose. Makes it hard for more Israelis to identify with their goals, and to an extent

promotes the opposite effect.

 

While I personally think that the blame game is not really conductive toward resolving the conflict, cannot say that this is

a position upheld by some of these NGOs, who are generally more focused on wrongs done by Israel, for some it is even

a hallmark. That is not to say that some of their effort are not worthy, of course, just that like most everyone - they have an

agenda.

 

The current Israeli government is useless as far as advancing peace is concerned. Shouldn't come as a huge surprise for

anyone familiar with the people involved. To expect it to do anything other than antagonize and waste time is an exercise

in futility. That said, there always that bothersome other side (or rather, sides, seeing the PA/Hamas split), which does such

a fine job at kicking the bucket and raising its own hurdles at almost every turn. While I do not support the Israeli govrenemnt

stance, it is really hard to be anything but disillusioned with the Palestinian leadership as well.

 

The blockade collected a lot of media mileage, and scores big on sympathy points for the Hamas. There is usually very little

attention to the details, implications, domestic and regional politics involved. The blockade is there for a reason, it is the way

it is today for a reason. It could be eased (but probably not fully lifted) under certain conditions. The resistance to introducing

these conditions is not entirely Israel's.

[Morch]

The UN Human Rights Council in Geneva voted in favor of an official investigation into alleged war crimes in Gaza.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28451691

 

 

 

Fantastic News!

 

       

 

With a body that dedicates almost half of its country specific resolutions to Israel that's hardly a surprise.

Guess them official investigations into the situation in Syria, Sudan, Nigeria and others will just have to wait.

 

[Morch]

 

 

There are 46 nations on the UN Human Rights Council.

 

29 voted in favor of the investigation.

17 abstained.

0 voted against

 

The resolution is entitled, " Ensuring Respect for International Law in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and East Jerusalem"

 

 

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/india-votes-in-support-of-un-human-rights-council-resolution-on-gaza/articleshow/38938917.cms

 

 

 

Justice moves forward.

 

 

More like unfair demonization of Israel moves forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVZX2l6OhIE

 

Netanyahu and his cronies should prepare for war crimes accusations via the UN.

 

The massive deaths via high tech warfare inflicted on Gaza is the crime of the century as we look back on what happened 100 years ago.

 

 

The crime of the century? Hyperbole much?
 

[Morch]

 

Hamas is using civilians as human shields. Their deaths are the terrorists groups responsibility. 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcrWy3PT6zc

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo

 

Israel has a chance to present their evidence and prove their innocence transparently before the whole world. What a PR/credibility coup that would be.

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict

 

Until they do so, assertions, rationalizations, excuses, and words are cheap.

 

 

Nope.

 

The mandate of this investigation will cover Israel's actions, not the Palestinians.

The UNHRC seems to think that having a go at one side is good enough.

 

Other than the link provided do you have anything that states Israel never cooperated with any UN inquiry?

 

As others stated (UG, I think) Goldstone had second thoughts about his own report

Well, what do you know....this actually appears on the link your provided:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Goldstone.27s_retraction_of_civilian_targeting_claim

 

Words ARE cheap, aren't they indeed....
 

[Morch]

 

Hamas is using civilians as human shields. Their deaths are the terrorists groups responsibility. 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcrWy3PT6zc

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70Oqo_wmuGo

 

I too am tired of this mess. I have copies of every one of the photos on the posted video. I also have copies of all the propaganda cartoons. I have several photos of the Israelis using Palestinians as human shields. It is all pretty much propaganda. It can be used to make any point somebody wants to make. What is missing for me is specific photos that mirror the propaganda which often has a Hamas fighter firing from behind a baby carriage. This stretch of reality makes it all suspect. The photo of the apparent Hamas guy pulling by the arm could mean anything to include him trying to get his own child out of harms way. Many of the pictures appear to show interested Palestinains simply watching the action. The additions of these questionable photos makes the entire video harder to believe.

 

 

 

None of the photos on the video are as clear as these as to what exactly going on. You can make about any point you want to make About these pictures.

 

These cartoons are clearly propaganda. They do however beg the question, If this human shield stuff is so cut and dried, why the need for propaganda in cartoon form.

 

 

 

 

That is often the case when people think about human shields as something out of a Hollywood action movie.

Rather than expecting to witness it in this dramatic extreme, most cases are less main scene material.

 

When a rocket launcher is fired from within a residential area, or from a position near a public building, that qualifies as

using human shields. The same goes for government (in this case, Hamas) inciting civilians to gather around locations

known to be military targets, as well as active calls by government to do so. It applies when a government (Hamas) goes

on and instructs civilians to disregard warnings regarding impeding incoming attacks.

 

Reality is usually not a one on one face off with hostages stranded in the middle.

[Morch]

 

...... if Hamas and Hezbollah destroyed all of their weapons tomorrow what would be the outcome? The answer is that there would be peace.

 

 

 

As there have been no weapons in the West Bank, and no armed resistance from Fatah for many years, we can judge what would happen in the event of peace by examining the Israeli record in the West Bank:

 

1. Land is stolen daily. Check

2. Deliberately refined forms of humilations and oppression are perpetrated on Palestinians by the IDF each day. Check

3. The 800 km long New Berlin (Apartheid) Wall would prevent Palestinian farmers from visiting their own lands, and the checkpoints would be used to inconvenience workers, students and families at the whim of the sociopaths in the IDF. Check.

4. People who have not committed any terrorist act, or committed any crime, would have their houses demolished. Check

5. Neighbours of people who have not committed any terrorist act, or committed any crime, would have their houses demolished. Check (Israel has the most advanced weaponry and military engineering in the world. Yet they can't figure out how to demolish one house without also demolishing adjoining houses).

6. Palestinian men, women and children would be imprisoned without trial. Check

7. Atrocities committed by the IDF will be investigated by...you guessed it, the IDF. They will find that no atrocity has been committed, that the children flung themselves underneath the tanks and in front of the bullets. (They did this to try to make Israel look bad in the eyes of the world). Check.

8. Palestinian sources of income - such as olive trees and other farm crops wil be destroyed by settlers. The IDF will be present to ensure there is no violence againts the settlers. Check.

 

You get the idea? There is too much evidence of the perfidy of Israel over the years to believe that a non-negotiated peace would mean anything other than further oppression for Palestinians. Israel may be winning militarily, but their actions have led to losing the battle for the support of the international community. It will take many changes of government in Tel Aviv, many alterations of policy, and a set of more humane attitudes amongst Israelis before they will get it back. Even the flooding of social media (such as TV) with pre-prepared messages from the Israeli propaganda machine will make little, if any, difference. People now recognise that Israel is a rogue state.

 

 

 

There were shots fired just a couple of days ago on IDF soldiers in the West Bank, during demonstrations and riots in support of the Hamas and against Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip. The PA security forces have weapons. The kidnappers who killed the three Israelis had weapons. Depending on what one considers "many years" - attacks by Fatah's military wing dwindled after 2007. The fact that the PA is currently in control of the West Bank does not mean that the Hamas does not have some presence there as well, and quite a bit of support. Same goes for other organizations.

 

Now, lets see about the rest:

 

Land is not stolen daily. Situation is bad enough without exaggerations.

 

Deliberate refined forms of humiliation. Again, things are bad enough without attributing additional nonsense.

 

The so-called wall is not even complete. It is not even designed to be a wall along the whole length, just in some areas. The Apartheid bit is a silly, if not unexpected nonsense - countries do put up barriers as borders and as a security measure, Arab villages and towns in Israel are not surrounded by anything. The Arab PMs are actually quite vocal in parliament. Not all of the IDF soldiers are sociopaths, but don't let that stop you from generalizations.

 

Do other armies around the world regularly submit to external investigations by international bodies? Do share.  Do IDF soldiers who come under investigation always come out clean? Hardly, but again, don't let this stop you.

 

 

Other issues raised - inconvenience at road blocks, house demolitions, extra-judicial arrests and behavior of the settlers, yes. These are indeed things which not many would have anything to say about but condemn. The olive trees bit, though....there was a related insurance scam going on years ago which demonstrated how Israelis and Palestinians can work together. Sadly (or not) this initiative came to a halt and pure old aggro is what's left instead.

 

Bottom line - situation in the West Bank is far from perfect. There are enough real things to bash Israel with (and bashed it ought to be on some fronts) - no need to dream up nonsense details or varnish the existing ones with fiery rhetoric.

 

Under the current Israeli government (and its like), there is little doubt that peace is not on the menu. The government sits in Jerusalem, though, not Tel-Aviv. While the it can be said that both Israel's leadership and the Israeli public (in general) are not quite ready to make the concessions peace demands, the same is true of the Palestinians. Anyone who, for some reason, assumes that the Palestinian leadership(s) and the Palestinian public is willing to willing to make concessions on its part, is quite wrong.

[Morch]

 

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

I read your link. Looks like its only the Jerusalem Post and you who are discrediting the Goldstone Report.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone

 

So much easier for Netanyahu and Mark Regev to trot out their own version of events. Anyone who questions them such as the UN, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israel's own B'Tselem (a group of prominent Israeli lawyers, academics, journalists, and members of the Knesset) must be biased. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27Tselem

 

Shoot the messenger, nmuddy the waters and ignore the facts. Israel's PR/credibilty is wearing thinner. Through social [media] the world can nowadays see through Israel's lies.

 

The truth will out ultimately.

 

 

How about bothering to fully read links provided by yourself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict#Goldstone.27s_retraction_of_civilian_targeting_claim
 

[Morch]

 

 

But they have always refused to co-operate with any UN inquiry, even one chaired by the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone.

Do you mean the discredited Goldstone report that "the highly respected judge Richard Goldstone" later recanted? Why would Israel co-operate with another witch-hunt by the UN, when they already know that it will not be fair from lots of experience? "Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results". 

Judge Goldstone later repudiated the main findings, thereby exposing the NGOs’ lack of credibility. But the NGOs refused to reconsider their own role and practices in this deeply flawed and irresponsible process.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/NGOs-and-the-next-Goldstone-fiasco-368517

 

 

Israel isn't doing the same thing over and over again. Israel has never cooperated with an international inquiry!

 

Perhaps if Israel didn't forbid their own soldiers from even speaking to UN investigators, then we might have a chance of hearing the truth.

 

 

Any link to support the bold "never" bit?

And if this means all you can come up with is the Goldstone link, please look up "never".
 

[Morch]

 

"I do not agree with the way you are trying to paint the way Israel may or may not cooperate with the UN. The fact is the UN is biased".

 

Of course the UN is biased. Otherwise the UN Security Council would ensure worldwide condemnation of Israel, and direct punitive actions such as trade boycotts against Israeli products, boycotts of arms sales from Israel, cultural exchanges etc. The current unofficial boycott of Israel is not enough. It would be constructive for peace if one of the permanent members of the UN wasn't so biased in favour of Israel.

 

 

 

Why is it, in your opinion, that so many of the UN bodies are continuously dealing with Israel?

Alright, I get it - Israel is bad and should be punished. Fine.

Now, is Israel really the worst country in the world? There aren't any wars, atrocities, human rights violations

and whatnot going on elsewhere around the globe, and on larger scales which merit at least the same amount

of attention?

Apart from the UN security council, the UN is a numbers game. You got the votes you can pass whatever you

resolution you see fit. If you choose to see the bias only in the security council, that's a choice. On the other hand,

may want to consider that the UNHRC dedicates an ungodly amount of time and resolutions to dealing with Israel

(coming up to just under half their output). Choosing to believe that this is a real representation of the amount of

global wrongs Israel is responsible for, shows a certain bias by itself.
 

[CBR250]

 

 

...... if Hamas and Hezbollah destroyed all of their weapons tomorrow what would be the outcome? The answer is that there would be peace.

 

 

 

As there have been no weapons in the West Bank, and no armed resistance from Fatah for many years, we can judge what would happen in the event of peace by examining the Israeli record in the West Bank:

 

1. Land is stolen daily. Check

2. Deliberately refined forms of humilations and oppression are perpetrated on Palestinians by the IDF each day. Check

3. The 800 km long New Berlin (Apartheid) Wall would prevent Palestinian farmers from visiting their own lands, and the checkpoints would be used to inconvenience workers, students and families at the whim of the sociopaths in the IDF. Check.

4. People who have not committed any terrorist act, or committed any crime, would have their houses demolished. Check

5. Neighbours of people who have not committed any terrorist act, or committed any crime, would have their houses demolished. Check (Israel has the most advanced weaponry and military engineering in the world. Yet they can't figure out how to demolish one house without also demolishing adjoining houses).

6. Palestinian men, women and children would be imprisoned without trial. Check

7. Atrocities committed by the IDF will be investigated by...you guessed it, the IDF. They will find that no atrocity has been committed, that the children flung themselves underneath the tanks and in front of the bullets. (They did this to try to make Israel look bad in the eyes of the world). Check.

8. Palestinian sources of income - such as olive trees and other farm crops wil be destroyed by settlers. The IDF will be present to ensure there is no violence againts the settlers. Check.

 

You get the idea? There is too much evidence of the perfidy of Israel over the years to believe that a non-negotiated peace would mean anything other than further oppression for Palestinians. Israel may be winning militarily, but their actions have led to losing the battle for the support of the international community. It will take many changes of government in Tel Aviv, many alterations of policy, and a set of more humane attitudes amongst Israelis before they will get it back. Even the flooding of social media (such as TV) with pre-prepared messages from the Israeli propaganda machine will make little, if any, difference. People now recognise that Israel is a rogue state.

 

 

 

There were shots fired just a couple of days ago on IDF soldiers in the West Bank, during demonstrations and riots in support of the Hamas and against Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip. The PA security forces have weapons. The kidnappers who killed the three Israelis had weapons. Depending on what one considers "many years" - attacks by Fatah's military wing dwindled after 2007. The fact that the PA is currently in control of the West Bank does not mean that the Hamas does not have some presence there as well, and quite a bit of support. Same goes for other organizations.

 

Now, lets see about the rest:

 

Land is not stolen daily. Situation is bad enough without exaggerations.

 

Deliberate refined forms of humiliation. Again, things are bad enough without attributing additional nonsense.

 

The so-called wall is not even complete. It is not even designed to be a wall along the whole length, just in some areas. The Apartheid bit is a silly, if not unexpected nonsense - countries do put up barriers as borders and as a security measure, Arab villages and towns in Israel are not surrounded by anything. The Arab PMs are actually quite vocal in parliament. Not all of the IDF soldiers are sociopaths, but don't let that stop you from generalizations.

 

Do other armies around the world regularly submit to external investigations by international bodies? Do share.  Do IDF soldiers who come under investigation always come out clean? Hardly, but again, don't let this stop you.

 

 

Other issues raised - inconvenience at road blocks, house demolitions, extra-judicial arrests and behavior of the settlers, yes. These are indeed things which not many would have anything to say about but condemn. The olive trees bit, though....there was a related insurance scam going on years ago which demonstrated how Israelis and Palestinians can work together. Sadly (or not) this initiative came to a halt and pure old aggro is what's left instead.

 

Bottom line - situation in the West Bank is far from perfect. There are enough real things to bash Israel with (and bashed it ought to be on some fronts) - no need to dream up nonsense details or varnish the existing ones with fiery rhetoric.

 

Under the current Israeli government (and its like), there is little doubt that peace is not on the menu. The government sits in Jerusalem, though, not Tel-Aviv. While the it can be said that both Israel's leadership and the Israeli public (in general) are not quite ready to make the concessions peace demands, the same is true of the Palestinians. Anyone who, for some reason, assumes that the Palestinian leadership(s) and the Palestinian public is willing to willing to make concessions on its part, is quite wrong.

 

 

Firstly, and not to piss in your pocket, but I am happy to acknowledge that you are one of the few of the Israeli supporters on TV who makes an effort to achieve a little even-handedness, and to engage rationally. Maybe, from my perspective, not always successfully, but I wish to accord you the respect a considered stance deserves, and so have seriously responded to the above points. If you do enage seriously, we can continue an occasional discussion. If not, I am afraid I must banish you to the inarticulate, unreasoning world of Ulysses G!
 

So:

1. Yes, it does seem some of those on the West Bank had pistols and fired them, provoking a response from the IDF. But there was also the eye-witness account of Mustafa Baghouti, a pretty honest character, that firing from IDF occurred when there was no more than few stones being thrown. OK, the IDF doesn't have to accept this either, but the IDF has exhibited (again) what seems to be a disproportionate response. I would hope that the well-armed and protected IDF troops would show more forbearance in such situations. And overall, you must admit that the difference in armaments between the minimal Fatah weapons and the IDF is pretty vast.

But weapons are not the answer to peace for Israelis - I content that if Palestinians had absolutely no weapons, and even all of the loose stones lying around were confiscated, there could not be peace because of the continuing land grab. This is fundamental - the theft of land is the key issue, and can be attributed largely to fanatical Zionists, and so they can be seen as primarily responsible for the deaths in Gaza, and problems between Palestinians and Israelis. The oppression of the Palestinian people that has accompanied this land grab that has also helped generate the continuing cycle of violence. Failure to recognise these key facts doesn't bode well for peace in the foreseeable future.

 

2. Land may not be stolen - literally - on every day of the year. But that is merely splitting hairs. The accumulation of annexed Palestinian land is occurring rapidly. If the current rate continues, there will not be enough land left for a 2 state solution in a few years. (Not that this really matters - it has been accepted by many observers for some time that the Israeli government will not support a 2 state solution. It has used the peace process as a smokescreen while taking over ever more of the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza).

 

Land is central to the conflict, so any peace negotiations, rightly, call for a freeze on land grabs to enable negotiations to occur without unnecessary provocation (and further theft). Yet:

* Just prior to peace talks in August last year, Netanyahu announced tthe appropriation of 100 acres of land from Palestinian families to build 240 housing units.

* Also in August 2013, the Israeli Housing Minister announced plans for 1,187 new Israeli homes in the Palestinian West Bank.

In November, Israel announced plans to build 20,000 new housing units in the West Bank.

* Time reported that Israel more than doubled its construction activity in 2013 over 2012. 

* Since 1967, Israel has confiscated nearly 750,000 acres of land from the 1.5 million acres that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

* Palestinian land in East Jerusalem has been taken and designated as exclusively available for Jewish use.

 

* There are now over half a million Israelis living in annexed land in Palestine. And you really think they will happily move back if a 2 state solution is reached - even with minimal land available for Palestine ???? I doubt that even this Israeli government is so stupid to believe that, and to wish a monumental disaster onto its successors. The more parsimonious explanation is that this is pure and simply land theft.

 

So, please, no more questioning of land theft. It blatant and it is cynical and it is unarguably occurring rapidly. The fact that it isn't occurring each and every single day of the year is understandable. The bulldozers don't work on sabbath.

 

3. Refined and deliberate forms of humiliation. Nonsense you say? OK, I won't drag up too much to question your take on this. But the Jerusalem Post, which you must admit is not too anti-Israeli, is my source for this statement by Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the South African anti-apartheid leader and Nobel Peace laureate. He said Israeli policies toward the Palestinians in the territories are "humiliating," and said:
"I have witnessed the systemic humiliation of Palestinian men, women and children by members of the Israeli security forces," .....
"Their humiliation is familiar to all black South Africans who were corralled and harassed and insulted and assaulted by the security forces of the apartheid government."

 

4. The "New Berlin" Wall. No, it isn't yet complete, although work is continuing in contravention of the International Court of Justice's orders. Another "F*** you" to an international body. And the Wall is part of BOTH the land theft and the intentional humiliations. Over 80% of the route of the Wall runs inside the West Bank. And there are about 150 Palestinian communities which have part of their land isolated by the Wall, so if they wish to do any work on their own land they must seek permission and obtain ‘visitors’ permits and arrange for ‘prior coordination’. Workers living in the West Bank - but separated by the Wall from work, health care, family and friends, are often made to wait for hours each day to pass through one of the checkpoints. Not because there is any current threat.

 

 

 

5. Israeli soldiers often do come out clean after the unwarranted deaths of civilians. Just one example - there are dozens, if not hundreds. I will leave Rachel Corrie's death under a bulldozer aside for now, but point to the blatant killing of by an IDF member of Bassem Abu Rahme, killed on April 17, 2009. He died when hit by a high-velocity tear gas canister, in an incident captured on video. In September 2013 (note the lengthy delay) Israel’s military advocate general closed the investigation into Abu Rahme’s death without any indictment, claiming it was impossible to identify the soldier involved (despite the presence of eyewitnesses and video footage). The judgement also claimed he could not establish whether there had been a breach of regulations that forbid tear gas canisters from being fired directly at human targets. What??? Eyewitnesses, videos, photos and forensic reports weren't enough. But at least he is consistent. IDF soldiers are rarely held accountable for their behaviour towards Palestinians.

 

6. There probably were some joint Israeli-Palestinian scams around olive destruction. But this is just another smokescreen. The  Israeli authorities have uprooted over 800,000 Palestinian olive trees since 1967. Millions of dollars of Palestinian income removed. There are, again, hundreds of such cases. I keep repeating this to ensure you know that ALL of my points are not isolated occurrences. See for example: http://www.timesofisrael.com/police-failing-to-protect-palestinian-olive-trees-ngo-charges/ - and note that, again, I am using yet another pro-Israeli source to highlight Israeli crimes. Please don't just ignore points because there are partial explanations that can obfuscate issues a little. You must know - behind your attempts at diversion - that the deliberate destruction of olive orchards by Israelis (particular the rabid settler types) is an irrefutable fact.

 

Finally, I reject your accusations absolutely - no, this is not fiery rhetoric. No, this is not Israel bashing. These are facts, not interpretations, not "nonsense details". The descent to a name calling level of debate is inconsistent with your usual approach to discussion. Maybe you need a day away from the computer and the constant emotional barrage of images from and facts about Gaza. I know I do.

[Jay Sata]

I quite agree with the points above and here is another fact.
The millions of Palestinian refugees which resulted from Al Nakba (1948) and The Six Day War (1967) remain refugees NOT because they are a "political tool", but because, plainly and simply put, in pursuit of its apartheid ambitions, Israel denies them the right of return (unlike the diaspora Jews).

[Jingthing]

Yes if it was so simple, so black and white this would have been solved long ago. What is easy though is to demonize Israel. If Israel isn't a legitimate nation neither are 50 others. But mysteriously so much disproportionate attention on the one tiny nation of the Jewish people.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[FritsSikkink]

Here a Israeli women with courage :

[Ulysses G.]

Firstly, and not to piss in your pocket, but I am happy to acknowledge that you are one of the few of the Israeli supporters on TV who makes an effort to achieve a little even-handedness, and to engage rationally.

Is he an "Israel supporter"? To me, he seems to be sitting firmly on the fence and trying to keep both sides accurate with facts - a few of which I disagree with. He is one of the few posters that are not on one side or another, but he obviously has a genuine interest in the topic and the knowledge to back it up.

 

If not, I am afraid I must banish you to the inarticulate, unreasoning world of Ulysses G!

 
 

[Jay Sata]

From today edition of the Independent newspaper in the UK .



Sunday 27 July 2014
Israel-Gaza conflict: The secret report that helps Israelis to hide facts
World View: The slickness of Israel's spokesmen is rooted in directions set down by pollster Frank Luntz

Israeli spokesmen have their work cut out explaining how they have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in Gaza, most of them civilians, compared with just three civilians killed in Israel by Hamas rocket and mortar fire. But on television and radio and in newspapers, Israeli government spokesmen such as Mark Regev appear slicker and less aggressive than their predecessors, who were often visibly indifferent to how many Palestinians were killed.





http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html

[FritsSikkink]

A report by John Snow from Channel 4:

 

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/watch-channel-4-news-live-gaza/24260

[CBR250]

Yes if it was so simple, so black and white this would have been solved long ago. What is easy though is to demonize Israel. If Israel isn't a legitimate nation neither are 50 others. But mysteriously so much disproportionate attention on the one tiny nation of the Jewish people.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Yes, JT. We already know that you have the victim ploy down pat and not much else to offer.