Israel is using a sledgehammer to crack nuts

[ggold]

 

 

 

 

As far as Gaza goes it is already along the 47 boarder line, Israel hasn't taken any land from the Gaza area.

 

 

 

Yes it has!

 

 

 

Oh no it hasn't!

 

 

 

The original lines of the Gaza Strip, under the partition plan of 1947 were indeed much larger than nowadays.

The bit often left out in some maps lies along the north part of the current Egyptian-Israeli border. 
 

 

 

OK but that was just a plan, It never happened. After the war of independence, The UN having accepted the creation of the state of Israel, have accepted the boarders created after independence. Gaza was and is the same size today. The fact is Israel will never return to that boarder plan. They will stick with the 1967 boarder + Jerusalem as a minimum. 

 

As you have agreed it was controlled by Egypt.

 

Also as per you're link, It is interesting to see that the King of TransJordan was named King of Arab Palestine and that the two should unite as one country. So the Palestinians should F OFF to Jordan.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Palestine_Government

Shortly thereafter the Jericho Conference named King Abdullah I of Transjordan "King of Arab Palestine".^[4] The Congress called for the union of Arab Palestine and Transjordan and Abdullah announced his intention to annex the West Bank. The other Arab League member states opposed Abdullah's plan.

[Chicog]

I blame the Egyptians for not grabbing it when they were given the opportunity.

Useless tarts.

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

Very wrong. There was plenty of terrorism in the Ottoman Empire before Zionism even existed, but the Arabs used terrorism in the Palestine area before the Jews and the Jews responded. Look up the Hebron Massacre. They were also there for thousands of years before the Arabs non-stop, although a lot of both Jews and Arabs from other areas started immigrating in the early 1900s

 
So Jewish terrorists murdering 2 British army sergeants and then even booby trapping one of the bodies and blowing it to smithereens was a response to Arab terrorism?

Maybe you should consider reading the post that I was responding to, before trying to deflect from the topic. I never said that the Jews did not resort to terrorism. I said that both sides did and that the Arabs were the ones that initiated it.

You're talking about the same Israel that actually invented Middle East terrorism, right?

As far as the British army goes, they were hardly blameless. They lied to both Jews and Arabs and played both sides against the middle constantly. Both sides hated them and both sides attacked them. Somewhat ironically, they also destroyed numerous homes to keep the Arabs in line, much like Israel does today.
The British imposed a quota on immigrants, which they strictly enforced when it came to Jews, but mostly ignored when it came to Arabs. They also imposed restrictions on the amount of land Jews could buy in Palestine.
They made local Arabs ride in the front of military convoys, tied to the bonnets of lorries, or on small flatbeds on the front of trains, to prevent mine or sniper attacks and committed a number of other atrocities including murdering innocents, looting villages and beating inhabitants with sticks and rifle butts. I suppose that it is a matter of opinion, if they deserved a military response, or not.

[Pralaad]

Arabs and Hamas were winning the PR propaganda for years, always playing the civilian casualties card.

This time around they fcked up by openly admitting using civilians as human shields, furthermore openly encouraging and forcing civilians in the line of fire.

Big mistake , huge, which will cost them all

Yes Hamas may well have done this but do Israel really need to kill all those human shields ?

I honestly think this is not going the way of Israel in terms of pr. They are responding in a way that can only increase hatred from within and outside of Palestine.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

OK, so what do you propose? Israel sits under the rocket fire? Or ground invasion?

[Ulysses G.]

They were never Palestinian territory.

Agreed. That is why that map is completely bogus. This one is real though:
 

 
Except that giving back the Sinai peninsula to Egypt does not have much to do with the Palestinians.

Actually it does. It is land that Israel traded for peace with Arabs who were enemies and who fought with the Palestinians. They closed down settlements and made their own people leave their homes. It is proof that they will dismantle settlements and honor their word, if they can find a willing partner.

[hard124get]

 

 

 

By the way, plenty was done between The Balfour Declaration and  WW2. The Arabs and the Jews were fighting each other and both sides were fighting the Brits.

 

And this negotiation was with the British, that bastion of democracy, who gave the world that enduring legacy - the concentration camp.

 

Which is what the government of Israel has made in Palestine.

 

 

There is no Palestine.
 

 

Aristotle wrote about the Dead Sea in PALESTINE well over 2,000 years ago.

[Morch]

Fantastic post -  the good news is that there is hope - 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QiV9xn0RbI

 

 

 

 

So basically, his group and himself, commenced an unauthorized demonstrations, which resulted in Palestinians joining in. This is in Jerusalem and when a parade is passing by - and the kid seriously wonders why police was tense about it? Like, these things never go out of control, do they?

 

Apart from this, he is not an Israeli citizen (apparently), but a tourist. Not sure if he has that many rights to express himself in public the way he did. As for the Israeli kids on parade chanting anti-Arab/anti-Muslim slogans, a bit hard to tell if this happened before or after they ran into his group's demonstration (but wouldn't be surprised either way, no shortage of fools there).

 

And teen logic at its best, don't want Israel to occupy the West Bank in his name, Says he represents world Jews AND the American people....

[jacky54]

Aristotle wrote about the Dead Sea in PALESTINE well over 2,000 years ago.

 

 

 

Plato wrote about Atlantis, so what?

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

 

By the way, plenty was done between The Balfour Declaration and  WW2. The Arabs and the Jews were fighting each other and both sides were fighting the Brits.

 
And this negotiation was with the British, that bastion of democracy, who gave the world that enduring legacy - the concentration camp.
 
Which is what the government of Israel has made in Palestine.

 

 
There is no Palestine.

 

Aristotle wrote about the Dead Sea in PALESTINE well over 2,000 years ago.

 

The Jewish Palestine. There has never been an Arab country called Palestine.

[hard124get]

 

I wonder how Israel would react if around 150 of their innocent citizens had been killed by warplanes and missiles?

They have created the biggest gulag or concentration camp modern mankind has ever know and it is Gaza.

They have nuclear weapons but unlike Iran have never signed up to international agreements or weapons inspections.

The West Bank has been invaded by so called settlers from abroad who have developed an apartheid system with their own roads etc.

The only solution is the UN and civilised countries should ban all imports of Israeli goods and trade subject it's citizens to travel bans.

Look at what Christian Aid says about settlements.

"Christian Aid believes that Israeli settlements will continue to expand unless action is taken to stop them from being profitable.

For too long now the international community has condemned settlements as illegal, without taking concrete action to prevent them growing (both economically and in numbers).

Against this, the UK government describes them as the greatest obstacle to peace between Israel and the Palestinians."

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/whatwedo/middle-east/take-action-to-ban-israeli-settlement-produce.aspx

 

So now all of the casualties on the Palestinian side are transformed into the equivalent of "innocent citizens".   There's no Hamas, no Islamic Jihad....just ordinary people going about their daily lives.  To answer your question, Israel would probably hit back with whatever it had. That said, Israel would probably think twice on how to go about it if the odds were stacked against it. And would probably not induce more of its innocent citizens to stand in harm's way.

 

Gaza is a concentration camp maintained by Israel. Right. There's only this pesky issue with the Egyptian border, which blows quite a hole in this argument. Somehow the Egyptians aren't that keen on letting free passage of goods and people through. The blockade got nothing to do with the Hamas abusing easing of restrictions in order to re-arm itself, it's just Israeli spite.

 

Nuclear arms - now, that's of course not really related to the topic, but why not bring it in? Israel did not threaten another country with a nuclear strike. Other countries did.

 

The Jewish settlements in the West Bank are illegal, wrong and self-defeating. The Apartheid bit stems from the misguided notion that Israel annexed the West Bank. It did not. The minute Israel does that, or officially declares it will hold on to them settlements (which amounts to a partial annexation) - go ahead and call it Apartheid. Until then, bear in mind Israel got a 20% Arab minority (within its borders) as citizens with full rights and full political representation.

 

As a point of reference, the Israeli illegal settlements and road system, plus the cost of maintaining troops to secure them makes the notion of them being "profitable" in any meaningful way quite ludicrous. In effect, this is one of the issues repeatedly coming up in Israeli politics, many claiming that budgets allocated to them may be better used elsewhere (even without factoring in the political implications).

 

Quite amazing that one would still see this conflict in such a one-sided way. What is advocated is not a negotiation or coming to an agreement, but a forced solution. There are no issues with Hamas launching rockets on civilians ? This is all Israel's doing?

 

The Egypt situation is quite simple. The first free election produced a Gaza friendly government. That was not acceptable to Israel/US and a military coup was encouraged. The new Junta is well paid by US to keep the relief tunnels closed.

[Morch]

I'm not a Hamas (terrorist organization) supporter and neither am I anti Israel. However, Israel clearly started this current conflict. They used the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers as an excuse to invade Palestinian territory arresting hundred, killing somewhere around 11 people while "searching" for the kidnapped teens and bulldozing the houses of people not convicted of a crime. Of course Hamas then then fired missiles into Israel. This was all part of Netanyahu's plan. This is a man who doesn't want peace with the Palestinians until they are all driven out of the territories. Since the missiles starting flying, only Palestinians have been killed. However something like 150 Palestinians have been killed including dozens of children.The Israeli's have a good missile detection system thanks to the USA. 

 

Historically speaking for those claiming there was no Arab Palestinian state ever. You are partially correct. This is an area of land which was called Palestine and occupied over the centuries by many different countries. The people who occupied this piece of land we refer to as Palestinians as what else shall we call them. Their land was taken from them to form the state of Israel. The government of Israel continues to move the bar higher and higher for the Palestinians trying to form some sort of homeland. The PLO laid down their weapons for peace finally and spent years in negotiations. Israel's foot dragging is part of the reason that some Palestinians turned to Hamas and elected them in the first place.

 

It's time for the US to stand up against Israel for a change and put a stop to this. We won't of course as the Israeli lobby has all of our politicians for the short and curlies.

 

Clearly.

Apart from hostilities and rocket launches occurring before the kidnapping.  Apart from most of those arrested during the search being released.  Apart from only the part of one house where one of the killers resided was bulldozed.  Apart from all this taking place in the West Bank, and not in Gaza Strip.

 

Is the complaint about casualty figures directed at Israelis not keen on it? Or maybe against Hamas, for conducting his operations from within residential areas? Just imagine Hamas taking their action outside of population centers - no civilian casualties on both sides. Wouldn't that be something, eh?

 

The foot dragging when it comes to negotiations can be attributed to both sides, although its trendy on TVF to attribute it just to one of the sides (depending on who's posting). There are no saints here.  The PLO did not quite lay down its weapons - it was a very long process and it still got some hickups  now and then. That said, the area under their control is better off then the area under the Hamas's rule.

[Ulysses G.]

The Egypt situation is quite simple. The first free election produced a Gaza friendly government. That was not acceptable to Israel/US and a military coup was encouraged. The new Junta is well paid by US to keep the relief tunnels closed.

Sounds like another silly conspiracy theory. Obama was way too friendly with the Muslim Brotherhood government for my tastes and it was the Egyptian people who wanted them out and were angry at the US for supporting them. Have you forgotten all the protests? 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keM_XJjyoew

Edited July 14, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

This whole war has been manufactured to order by Israel. They don’t want peace, they just want a managed conflict while they continue to colonize Palestine illegally.

 

For years Netanyahu said he couldn’t negotiate peace with the Palestinian Authority because they didn't represent Gaza.

 

So a few months ago the PA made an agreement with Hamas to hold elections that was recognised by the USA and EU.

 

Netanyahu was furious.

 

Then along came the tragic abduction and murder of 3 Israeli teenagers. Shin Bet knew within less than 24 hours from an eventually published phone call from one of the kids with the sound of gun shots that they had been killed. But that didn’t stop the Israeli terrorist state from immediately pointing the finger at Hamas without a shred of evidence..and none has still been produced! Hamas kidnaps soldiers, claims responsibility, and negotiates for the release of 1000s of Palestinians held without charge in Israeli jails. This does not benefit Hamas at all...but it is very useful for Israel. This incident has the hallmarks of 2 angry and hate filled Palestinians, the same brand as the Israeli thugs who burnt alive Mohammed Abu Khdeir

 

But Israel always gets away with the big lie. They even lied to the kids’ parents maintaining the pretext that they might still be alive.

 

It was the perfect excuse to spend weeks smashing up Palestinian homes, rounding up 560 ..many of whom are still in jail without charge, killing 9 Palestinians, and mounting air strikes. And the rest is history as the score now reaches 172 dead Palestinians, 1000s injured, 17000 refugee refugees: Israel nil.

 

The Palestinians can never win a military war against the nuclear armed Israel. They should all be issued with phone cams to record the daily humiliation at West Bank checkpoints, beatings and murder committed by the occupying IDF and Zionist squatters, and bombard the social media and YouTube with the images.

 

..and shame Israel into making a just peace.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to TVF.

 

The Palestinian reconciliation agreement was far from a made deal, as was the case with previous agreements

of this sort. Seeing as Hamas did not explicitly agree to cease the armed struggle against Israel (and the same

goes for Islamic Jihad and others), and since there was no real agreement on handing over control of Hamas's

military wing - Israel, in this case, had enough justification to be worried. Other than that, there were numerous

other issues, foremost being the PA refusing to pick up the tab for Hamas government officials (which Hamas

could not afford). This, for example, had little to do with Israel, but surely can chalk it up for Netanyahu as well.

 

So Hamas was facing an ongoing economic crisis, and an image hit as cooperating with the PA (which in turn

cooperates with Israel) making it look soft compared to local rivals like Islamic Jihad (with the recent success of

ISIS in the background). With no instant solution on the salaries and losing ground to Islamic Jihad, going tough

was the card of choice.

 

Israeli security agencies actually knew the identity of the killers very early on (this was published both in Israeli 

and Palestinian media). Example, family members were among the first who were picked up and arrested. The

killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. I do not think it was claimed

that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

[Morch]

@Morch:

 

I enjoy reading your responses.

 

Perhaps a side issue, but on the issue of Hamas within the Unity government some interesting background. This info is from  BBC Watch analysis that, provides quite a bit of detail at URL below.

 

“It is not clear how the dual civil services will be merged and whether Hamas will cede any control of security in Gaza, where in addition to its 25,000-strong military wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the group controls 20,000 other armed personnel.”

 

http://bbcwatch.org/tag/hamas-fatah-deal/

 

Likewise .

 

I do not think this is a side issue, but one of the main issues for the current conflagration.  That is, not the security aspect, which would be problematic both for Israel and the PA, but the economic crisis which pushed Hamas to the corner. The failure to esolve this meant that Hamas could have faced major civil discontent for a first time within a few years. And with losing ground to the Islamic Jihad, this was getting a bit out of hand for their taste. In my opinion, had there not been a financial problem, fighting would have been averted for a while. In conjunction with the the kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli students, it was bound to go down.

 

As for the disarmament, the PA did not make much of it, or tried to gloss it over (before all hell broke loose), but Abbas cannot be thrilled with bankrolling a sizable militia not under his command. Also, some bad blood remains between some, from the Hamas takeover days.

[Morch]

 

 

"I can only imagine the reaction if Cambodia was lobbing rockets into Thailand.

 

Or if Ireland was doing the same to the UK"

 

Of course the Irish did just that but I don't recall any British retaliatory airstrikes on civilians. The OP was about proportionality remember and Israel will never succeed with these tactics.

 

"Clearly the "Jewish vote" is not as critical as say the HIspanic vote".

 

When it comes to US foreign policy the "Jewish Vote" is way more influential, largely as a result of the huge amounts of money they can mobilize. Just check out the influence Sheldon Adelson has and he is only one man.

 

 

'They did not invade the country and they certainly have not enslaved a population"

 

Really? Been to the West Bank lately?

 

What would be a "proportionate" reaction to rockets being launched indiscriminately at civilian targets?  Would setting up an equivalent system returning indiscriminate rocket fire at the Gaza Strip be better?  Perhaps Israel ought to dismantle the Iron Dome defense systems as well, just for that sense of fair play?

 

The Jewish lobby in the USA is indeed powerful. Probably too much so. Then again, so are other lobbies and influence groups - big pharma, weapon industry, NRA, Oil & Gas, Saudi Arabia....

 

There West Bank, or at least large parts of it are most definitely occupied by Israel, one way or another.  The Gaza Strip is not.  The populations is not "enslaved" by Israel in either place.  The rockets are not being launched from the West Bank, but from the Gaza Strip.

 

Its an important point you make but I would twist it around and ask the question, "why are no rockets fired from the West Bank"? They are Palestinians who have the same view as those from Gaza. What really makes them different.  The targets in the West Bank would be so much easier to hit. The Palestinians don't fear dying so why no attacks from the West Bank. There is a simple failure of consistency here and there are no simple explanations. Believe me, I have heard several hundred explanations but never one anywhere close to my satisfaction.If the Palestinians believe in using their kids for human shields, why don't they simply use them as suicide bombers in the settlements?

 

The stories we are told about Suicide Bombers, Human Shields, etc.. just don't hold up in the court of public opinion. I have had hundreds try to answer this and I have never gotten a reasonable answer. I almost always ask it as a rhetorical question.

 

The conclusion for those of us who have no dog in the fight is illogical.  Nobody is going to sell me  some lame explanation, If these things about Palestinians are true of Gaza they must also be true of the West Bank,.

 

Given that the IDF knows exactly where the underground rocket launchers are located, and I know the area is under constant watch, how do these rockets get fired? Keeping in mind of course, that no rockets are being fired from the West Bank. Why do these Palestinians only fire rockets toward the desert from behind the wall and kill only 26 Israelis in 14 years when all they have to do is fire into the settlements and get a much better kill rate with no expense or effort. It is the Settlements that they are angry about so why not take it out on the settlers. The Palestinians after all do not care if they become martyred so what difference would it make? They wouldn't have to go to the trouble to smuggle in explosives, they would have to stockpile rockets, etc.. To say that they could get way more bang for the buck is  a huge understatement.

 

The obvious conclusion is, the Israelis allow the rockets to be fired over the wall from Gaza. There is no other explanation that makes sense to somebody who has no dog in the fight. The opportunities for a suicide bomber are much greater in the west bank than they are in Gaza.

 

 

As with most things to do with this situation there can be more than one explanation.

 

The PA, which represents a somewhat more moderate element of Palestinian society as compared to the Hamas, and specifically, Abbas - who is more a politician than a staunch warrior, advocate a more cooperative and careful strategy when it comes to Israel. While this is severely put to the test on a daily basis, it still holds to a degree.

 

Palestinians in the West Bank may have to deal with IDF road blocks, illegal settlements, abusive settlers and many restrictions, but - and it's a big but, they're daily lives are nowhere as bad the those of the Palestinians down in Gaza.  In other words, more to lose and a leadership less vehement in its opposition to Israel.

 

From another angle, setting up an array of rocket launchers, rocket storage facilities, manufacturing facilities, testing grounds, smuggling in materials and components - this is a major undertaking which needs huge funding, secrecy, and not being less exposed to Israeli eyes. It would be much harder for the Palestinians in the West Bank to set up something approaching Gaza's rocket capability.

 

Not signing up to the "Palestinians aren't afraid of dying" thing. Just that in the Gaza Strip they are more desperate and more on-board with Islamic frevor. Are there "Palestinians" as a whole? All acting the same? Doubt it. Makes it easier to talk about things, but not necessarily a reality, same as there is no unified Israeli view on most things. As for human shields, this does not always take the form of a Mom standing defiant holding her infant in the face of attacking airplanes. Same would apply for forcing a family to use a cellar for storing rockets, giving up a floor to house Hamas members, digging a rocket launcher near the local school.  Suicide bombers got a much harder time getting through nowadays, Israeli security, especially in the West Bank can be a PITA for everyone. Nevertheless, there was actually a Palestinian who tried this a few days after the boy's murder.

Didn't go so well. With Gaza being made irrelevant as far as suicide bombers go, Israeli security agencies had a go at the more militant elements of Hamas and Fatah in the West Bank - to a large degree, this was a successful move.

 

Since you seem to hold that all Palestinians are the same, and all explanations are lame, not sure what you really wish to hear on this?  Apologies for not supplying a proper unified conspiracy theory themed explanation. There is none.

 

The high regard in which you hold Israeli intelligence does not reflect what the IDF itself says on the subject of Gaza.  They do not claim to know where every launcher is located, but they did say that once they do launch they are easy to locate and attack. So, not a given. The rockets are mostly launched from underground dugouts, often remote operated and sometimes timed (as to produce a sequenced salvo). Some are pre-positioned, and some can be re-calibrated.

 

The rockets are not fired at "the desert", opening a map would show that pretty clearly. While many land in what is often designated "open areas", that could mean anything from a field, a road, a parking lot. There is no "wall" to shoot the rockets over. The number of fatalities is actually over 60, but guess that would not change your argument much.

 

The obvious conclusion is that you have a warped view of Palestinians, of their internal divisions and different motivations. Combined with an insistence on simplistic explanations and a leaning toward conspiracy theories, and consistently ignoring simple facts, it may lead one to assume all sort of silliness.

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

 

And this negotiation was with the British, that bastion of democracy, who gave the world that enduring legacy - the concentration camp.

 

Which is what the government of Israel has made in Palestine.

 

 

There is no Palestine.
 

 

 

You, and others, may repeat this nonsense all you like. Just gets more sand in your mouths with the heads buried that deep.   There is a Palestinian state in the making, pretty much acknowledged by most nations, and de facto, by Israel as well.

 

It is true, though, that currently there is no credible Palestinian leadership, what with Hamas doing their own thing regardless of the PA. This will need to be resolved before things can move forward.
 

 

 

A Palestinian state in the making is not a Palestinian state on the ground. That is all I was saying. It is not sticking ones head in the sand. If the Palestinians get their act together then there may very well be a Palestinian state alongside Israel. But as it stands, If Hamas continue with their attacks on Israel there will never be a Palestinian state.

 

When Israel gave back the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians, they had an opportunity to start creating the infrastructure for a nation state, instead they decided to fire rockets at Israel. 

 

So the Palestinians show they are not sincere and deserve everything the Israelis throw at them.

   

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, my mistake. Misinterpreted your post as total denial.

[Morch]

 

 

There is no Palestine.

 
You, and others, may repeat this nonsense all you like. Just gets more sand in your mouths with the heads buried that deep.   There is a Palestinian state in the making, pretty much acknowledged by most nations, and de facto, by Israel as well.

 

Only one problem, it happens to be true. A "Palestinian state in the making" means that there never was one before and that there is not one now. I am sure that you realize this already, but lots of people think that the Jews came along and "stole" some Arab country called Palestine that has never existed. What he said was not "nonsense", no matter how much it offends you. It was literally and technically correct.

 

 

I am not really bothered with history when it comes to current issues.

 

What I meant was simply that the Palestinian state (or A Palestinian state, not completely true they never had something

of the sort, try Gaza 1949-1959) is almost a reality as it is. If the Palestinians were to go for it in the UN, doubt they would

be denied.

 

For all intents and purposes, Israel itself deals with the PA as an almost-country, and with the Hamas as a hostile almost-

country. There's really a very small gap to cover here.

 

Seems like I misread ggold's post, though, and it wasn't meant in exactly the same way I thought it was.
 

[dexterm]

 

 The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. I do not think it was claimed

that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 

...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made, and the pretext under which he has just killed almost 200 Palestinians with more to come probably

 

It's like 2 Irishmen with IRA sympathies kill 3 British students in Northern Ireland, and so the UK bombs Dublin in retaliation.... crazy! Collective punishment or planned escalation?

[Ulysses G.]

I am not really bothered with history when it comes to current issues.

I can see that. From 1949-1967, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian Occupation. From 1949-1959, the Egyptians created a puppet government to run the territory, but it was eventually scrapped for direct military occupation. There has never been an independent Palestinian State run by Arabs. 

Edited July 14, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Johpa]

However, Israel clearly started this current conflict.

 

Actually I am not sure who atctually started the conflict nor am I sure to what end.  The conflict started with the kidnapping and murders of the three Israeli teenagers. It is far easier to find the actual pepertrators than to determine who motivated the perpetrators to act.  That is the level where the "game of nations" is played.  And someone played Netanyahu like a fine fiddle.  But who?  The answer to that questions is way above my pay grade but clearly by those who wanted to stir the pot.  And they suceeded brilliantly.  Somewhere in the world there is an intelligence operative who is being decorated.

[Morch]

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it has!

 

 

 

Oh no it hasn't!

 

 

 

The original lines of the Gaza Strip, under the partition plan of 1947 were indeed much larger than nowadays.

The bit often left out in some maps lies along the north part of the current Egyptian-Israeli border. 
 

 

 

OK but that was just a plan, It never happened. After the war of independence, The UN having accepted the creation of the state of Israel, have accepted the boarders created after independence. Gaza was and is the same size today. The fact is Israel will never return to that boarder plan. They will stick with the 1967 boarder + Jerusalem as a minimum. 

 

As you have agreed it was controlled by Egypt.

 

Also as per you're link, It is interesting to see that the King of TransJordan was named King of Arab Palestine and that the two should unite as one country. So the Palestinians should F OFF to Jordan.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Palestine_Government

Shortly thereafter the Jericho Conference named King Abdullah I of Transjordan "King of Arab Palestine".^[4] The Congress called for the union of Arab Palestine and Transjordan and Abdullah announced his intention to annex the West Bank. The other Arab League member states opposed Abdullah's plan.

 

 

Well, didn't say anything in that post about Israel going back to the 1947 or even 1949 borders. Pretty obvious that will

not happen. Most talks circle around the 1967 borders. This was just to end the Yes-No-Yes stalemate.

 

As posted elsewhere, not in Jordan's best interests, not in Israel's best interests and the Palestinians aren't interested.

Ain't gonna happen and no one really peddles this lately.

 

[Ulysses G.]

 

 

The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. 

I do not think it was claimed that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 
...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

 

No it isn't. At least I see no reports of it. Other people said Hamas was directly behind the killing and there is no evidence that they have it wrong.

This is one of the things that Netanyahu did say:

“This is an asymmetrical conflict. We do not seek their destruction. They teach a very broad segment of their society to seek our destruction,” he said. “And that must end. There is too much suffering. There is too much pain.”

Edited July 14, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

 

 

I wonder how Israel would react if around 150 of their innocent citizens had been killed by warplanes and missiles?

They have created the biggest gulag or concentration camp modern mankind has ever know and it is Gaza.

They have nuclear weapons but unlike Iran have never signed up to international agreements or weapons inspections.

The West Bank has been invaded by so called settlers from abroad who have developed an apartheid system with their own roads etc.

The only solution is the UN and civilised countries should ban all imports of Israeli goods and trade subject it's citizens to travel bans.

Look at what Christian Aid says about settlements.

"Christian Aid believes that Israeli settlements will continue to expand unless action is taken to stop them from being profitable.

For too long now the international community has condemned settlements as illegal, without taking concrete action to prevent them growing (both economically and in numbers).

Against this, the UK government describes them as the greatest obstacle to peace between Israel and the Palestinians."

http://www.christianaid.org.uk/whatwedo/middle-east/take-action-to-ban-israeli-settlement-produce.aspx

 

So now all of the casualties on the Palestinian side are transformed into the equivalent of "innocent citizens".   There's no Hamas, no Islamic Jihad....just ordinary people going about their daily lives.  To answer your question, Israel would probably hit back with whatever it had. That said, Israel would probably think twice on how to go about it if the odds were stacked against it. And would probably not induce more of its innocent citizens to stand in harm's way.

 

Gaza is a concentration camp maintained by Israel. Right. There's only this pesky issue with the Egyptian border, which blows quite a hole in this argument. Somehow the Egyptians aren't that keen on letting free passage of goods and people through. The blockade got nothing to do with the Hamas abusing easing of restrictions in order to re-arm itself, it's just Israeli spite.

 

Nuclear arms - now, that's of course not really related to the topic, but why not bring it in? Israel did not threaten another country with a nuclear strike. Other countries did.

 

The Jewish settlements in the West Bank are illegal, wrong and self-defeating. The Apartheid bit stems from the misguided notion that Israel annexed the West Bank. It did not. The minute Israel does that, or officially declares it will hold on to them settlements (which amounts to a partial annexation) - go ahead and call it Apartheid. Until then, bear in mind Israel got a 20% Arab minority (within its borders) as citizens with full rights and full political representation.

 

As a point of reference, the Israeli illegal settlements and road system, plus the cost of maintaining troops to secure them makes the notion of them being "profitable" in any meaningful way quite ludicrous. In effect, this is one of the issues repeatedly coming up in Israeli politics, many claiming that budgets allocated to them may be better used elsewhere (even without factoring in the political implications).

 

Quite amazing that one would still see this conflict in such a one-sided way. What is advocated is not a negotiation or coming to an agreement, but a forced solution. There are no issues with Hamas launching rockets on civilians ? This is all Israel's doing?

 

The Egypt situation is quite simple. The first free election produced a Gaza friendly government. That was not acceptable to Israel/US and a military coup was encouraged. The new Junta is well paid by US to keep the relief tunnels closed.

 

 

And, naturally, you have non-conspiracy theory sources to back this conspiracy theory?

It's quite simple, not everything is simple.

 

Might have something to do with Egypt stance that allowing Hamas to operate a border pass would constitute

recognition of Hamas as the official Palestinian government instead of the PA - a course of action not favored

by Egypt. Might have to do with terror attacks against Egyptian forces in the Sinai peninsula....but these would

be way to trivial, probably.
 

[Morch]

 

 

 The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. I do not think it was claimed

that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 

...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made, and the pretext under which he has just killed almost 200 Palestinians with more to come probably

 

It's like 2 Irishmen with IRA sympathies kill 3 British students in Northern Ireland, and so the UK bombs Dublin in retaliation.... crazy! Collective punishment or planned escalation?

 

 

I do not recall Netanyahu making this exact claim, although he could have.

As far as I recall he made the connection in a broader way than than, not getting into specifics.

 

But again - there was talk both in Israeli and Palestinian media about upcoming hostilities this summer long before

the kidnapping and murder of the three Israelis. The incident certainly added fuel to the flames but I do no believe

that it was a main factor. Things would have come to a head anyway.

 

The IDF was talking about a need to restore deterrence vs. the Gaza Strip.

The Hamas was looking for anything to get it off the hook of the economic crisis.

 

And things were warming up down south even before the kidnapping.

If it wasn't this it would have been that.

Place can't seem to stay quiet for long.
 

[Morch]

 

I am not really bothered with history when it comes to current issues.

I can see that. From 1949-1967, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian Occupation. From 1949-1959, the Egyptians created a puppet government to run the territory, but it was eventually scrapped for direct military occupation. There has never been an independent Palestinian State run by Arabs. 

 

 

Don't think I mentioned anything about being independent.

Bottom line is that it doesn't matter all that much what they had in the past.

More of an interest is how the present is utilized to shape the future.

At least that's the way I see it....
 

[Jingthing]

Directly related the OP opinion piece. Who are they to preach to Israel?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n3750hPIXc

 

To be clear, personally I find this guy's rhetoric to be over the top ... but we've heard so much MUCH MORE over the top attacks on Israel here ... thought a little balance was in order. 

Edited July 14, 2014 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

 

 

 

The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. 

I do not think it was claimed that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 
...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

 

No it isn't. At least I see no reports of it. Other people said Hamas was directly behind the killing and there is no evidence that they have it wrong.

 

 

 

 

Ulysses G., on 14 Jul 2014 - 23:49, said:

 

dexterm, on 14 Jul 2014 - 23:28, said:

 

Morch, on 14 Jul 2014 - 22:03, said:

 

dexterm, on 14 Jul 2014 - 15:14, said:

The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. 

I do not think it was claimed that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 

...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

 

 

No it isn't. At least I see no reports of it. Other people said Hamas was directly behind the killing and there is no evidence that they have it wrong.

 

 

Well then you are not looking hard enough.. try The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz

Netanyahu said in a statement:..."Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the three boys be blessed." 

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602235

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Brothers-Keeper/Netanyahu-Hamas-will-pay-for-the-murders-the-three-youths-361070

 

>>there is no evidence that they have it wrong.

 

So Israeli justice is accuse anyone you like of any crime you like without any evidence, bomb the hell out of them and then tell them they must prove their innocence.

 

You’re using the old “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?” trick.

 

Hamas rather than claim responsibility as they did when they kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, they immediately told Netanyahu his claims were ridiculous, and they were.

 

This quick murder was the work of a couple of rogue vengeful Palestinians killers pissed off at the abuse they had received from the illegal Israeli squatters at Gush Etzion, where the teens studied

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27883685

They made no attempt to use their captives as bargaining chips to get Hamas members released from Israeli jails.

 

The murder was in no way helpful to Hamas, but it has proved a windfall for Netanyahu...destroy Hamas’ new alliance with the PA and win votes by whipping up some bloodlust...it worked last time they invaded Gaza just before an Israeli election.

 

 

[dexterm]

Directly related the OP opinion piece. Who are they to preach to Israel?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n3750hPIXc

 

To be clear, personally I find this guy's rhetoric to be over the top ... but we've heard so much MUCH MORE over the top attacks on Israel here ... thought a little balance was in order. 

 

and for the other side of the story that the Israelis aren't telling you... [interesting item ]

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-true-gaza-backstory-that-the-israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

 

This is not just about the foul murder of three Israelis in the occupied West Bank or the foul murder of a Palestinian in occupied East Jerusalem. Nor about the arrest of many Hamas militants and politicians in the West Bank.  Nor about rockets. As usual, it’s about land.

[Ulysses G.]

The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. I do not think it was claimed

that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 
...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

Wrong. It is NOT the claim that Netanyahu made. You posted:

"Well then you are not looking hard enough.. try The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz. Netanyahu said in a statement:..."Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the three boys be blessed."

It was members of Hamas. There is no doubt about it, but, Netanyahu never said that they were "operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza". YOU made that up.

[dexterm]

 

 

 

The killers are definitely Hamas people, details pertaining to this were all over media. I do not think it was claimed

that they were operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza, though.

 

 
...but that is exactly the claim that Netanyahu made

 

Wrong. It is NOT the claim that Netanyahu made. You posted:

"Well then you are not looking hard enough.. try The Jerusalem Post and Haaretz. Netanyahu said in a statement:..."Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay. May the memories of the three boys be blessed."

It was members of Hamas. There is no doubt about it, but, Netanyahu never said that they were "operating on direct orders from Hamas Central in Gaza". YOU made that up.

 

So according to your warped logic if the 3 Israeli thugs who today admitted burning alive Mohammed Khdeir belonged to the Israeli Likud party, then the Likud party itself is entirely responsible and any of the 885,000 Israelis who voted for them in the last election is therefore a legitimate target?

 

I think that’s called collective punishment. I wonder if the IDF will demolish the homes of the 3 Israeli murderers who recently confessed. Is theirs not terrorism too?

 

>> It was members of Hamas. There is no doubt about it

 

..seems like Netanyahu is clairvoyant too..only one person has been arrested for the murders Husam Dofsh who phoned an Israeli news station to protest his innocence.

 

So lets get this right, you now justify Israel’s collective punishment killing of over 200 Palestinians, many of them innocent women and children and disabled, not because any Hamas leadership ordered the kidnappings, but on the strength of Netanyahu’s suspicions about possible perpetrators.