Online freelancer, long stay in Thailand

[ParadiseLost]

But I replied to a statement that said you could not get a WP with the Elite card. And you can get a WP. For a freelancer online it doesn't matter what he do or have. It will not be legal

 

While it is true you can get one, it is not that straightforward as you still need to change to a non immigrant visa to get the WP and you still need the four employees.

 

Technically the PE (or is it EP?) is a tourist visa class.

 

Who thinks these things up?

[pistachios]

But I replied to a statement that said you could not get a WP with the Elite card. And you can get a WP. For a freelancer online it doesn't matter what he do or have. It will not be legal

 

 

So if you know that you cannot get a WP with the Elite card for an online freelance occupation, why did you answer several times that you can get a WP with the Elite card in a thread called "Online freelancer, long stay in Thailand"? 

[DrTuner]

From what I've understood the TE work permit help goes like follows:

 

Once you're in the country, you have a permit to stay that says "PE" (picture of which you can find in the TE thread), ie. privileged entry on it. You'll need another one that says non-immigrant so you can apply for a work permit. So, you need to get the usual stack of papers needed for the non-immigrant B, which you then hand on to an assistant of Thailand Elite (I suppose this will cost you some), who walks into immigration and handles the paperwork for you, the result being you end up with the correct stamp. The PE visa will not be canceled. Same with the WP itself, hand over the documents to TE and they'll expedite it.

 

Doesn't change the fact you'll need a Thai company to hire you, with the capital & Thai employee restrictions, or BOI approved (which is not trivial, either).

 

[ParadiseLost]

From what I've understood the TE work permit help goes like follows:

 

Once you're in the country, you have a permit to stay that says "PE" (picture of which you can find in the TE thread), ie. privileged entry on it. You'll need another one that says non-immigrant so you can apply for a work permit. So, you need to get the usual stack of papers needed for the non-immigrant B, which you then hand on to an assistant of Thailand Elite (I suppose this will cost you some), who walks into immigration and handles the paperwork for you, the result being you end up with the correct stamp. The PE visa will not be canceled. Same with the WP itself, hand over the documents to TE and they'll expedite it.

 

Doesn't change the fact you'll need a Thai company to hire you, with the capital & Thai employee restrictions, or BOI approved (which is not trivial, either).

 

 

What I can't figure is if you need to extend for 1 year and do 90 days reporting if you go this route (non B - even though the PE does not require it...

 

As I said before - who thinks of this krap?

Edited July 15, 2014 by ParadiseLost

[DrTuner]

 

From what I've understood the TE work permit help goes like follows:

 

Once you're in the country, you have a permit to stay that says "PE" (picture of which you can find in the TE thread), ie. privileged entry on it. You'll need another one that says non-immigrant so you can apply for a work permit. So, you need to get the usual stack of papers needed for the non-immigrant B, which you then hand on to an assistant of Thailand Elite (I suppose this will cost you some), who walks into immigration and handles the paperwork for you, the result being you end up with the correct stamp. The PE visa will not be canceled. Same with the WP itself, hand over the documents to TE and they'll expedite it.

 

Doesn't change the fact you'll need a Thai company to hire you, with the capital & Thai employee restrictions, or BOI approved (which is not trivial, either).

 

 

What I can't figure is if you need to extend for 1 year and do 90 days reporting if you go this route (non B - even though the PE does not require it...

 

As I said before - who thinks of this krap?

 

Even PE requires 90 day reports. TE will do them for you if you're in Bangkok.

 

The non-immigrant stamp that the WP needs must stay "alive", ie. it must be extended. I reckon the normal extension rules apply.

 

If you get booted out of a job and the extension based on working will end, I'm not sure if you need to pop out of the country for a new 1y PE stamp or what. I guess the TE folks will again run to their liaisons at Changwattana at let the rubber stamps do their magic.

 

It's a bit schizophrenic. PE is more of a backup plan/safety net if you're working.

[onthemoon]

 

 

Saigon is a hot spot for online workers right now and the visa situation in Vietnam is considerably easier than Thailand.

 

An ED visa will get you permission to stay in Thailand for about 30,000/year (go to the classes and be a legitimate student if you do it, don't be a <deleted> and ruin it for everyone else). It will not give you permission to work and a work permit cannot be obtained on an ED visa. I've never heard of immigration enforcing the work restriction against someone who was working online from their home, not making too much noise about it, and not doing work related to Thai companies or Thai people, however. (Has anybody?)

 

 

Just end a relationship, annoy your neighbour or a love rival, have an accident, etc and see how fast immigration come knocking on your door.

 

I certainly would not want to live 'permanently' under those circumstances...

 

Thats the point most other countries will give expats much earlier the possibility of a residence permit. 

 

True, but other countries' residence permit includes the right to work. Not so the Thai residence permit: You still have to apply for a work permit if you want to work.

[onthemoon]

 

Well obv OP didn't know, if he asked.

 

Indeed. I just left LoS, this thread helped me make up my mind. Good luck to those who choose to stay.

 

Good bye then.

[onthemoon]

 

 

 

 

What's so difficult to get a valid permit to stay & live in Thailand???  

 

 

There's quite a few situations where you remain a tax resident in your country of origin and cannot easily change that, no matter where you physically spend your time. Since all of the work is provided online, your physical whereabouts are of no importance to your clients - but your tax residency may be of great interest to your country of origin. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still paying taxes back home.

 

It would make sense to move your tax residency to Thailand if it was your intention to settle here. That may not be the case for many who nevertheless spend extended periods of time in Thailand.

That's a problem with your country. With my country, if I live more than 180 days per year outside of it, I am a "tax foreigner" and don't pay taxes there.

 

However, if you live and work in Thailand, it really does not matter what your native country's law says (unless there is a double-taxation treaty): You work here so you pay taxes here. That's not difficult to understand, is it?

.

"it really does not matter what your native country's law says".      Are you referring to the IRS?   If so I'd say it does matter.

 

It may matter to you but not to Thailand. And my country's IRS does not tax me if I live outside of the country for more than 180 days per year. So there is no issue.

 

Take it up with your own government. This is not a Thai problem.

[onthemoon]

 

Well obv OP didn't know, if he asked.

 

Indeed. I just left LoS, this thread helped me make up my mind. Good luck to those who choose to stay.

 

Good bye then.

[gray42]

I've attended packed conferences in Bangkok specifically for people who work online and live in Thailand. It's not uncommon at all and they don't have work permits. Thailand was on its way to becoming an online business startup hub, but now that's changing. They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs. 

Edited July 16, 2014 by gray42

[JomtienEats]

I've attended packed conferences in Bangkok specifically for people who work online and live in Thailand. It's not uncommon at all and they don't have work permits. Thailand was on its way to becoming an online business startup hub, but now that's changing. They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs.

Top immigration officers have made some quite direct statements to the press about cracking down on Russian, Korean, Vietnamese and Laos nationals primarily working as waiters, tour guides, estate agents and criminals. From the measures announced so far, it seems clear to me that is the aim. Any inconvenience to english teachers and onliners is accidental collateral damage. I've no doubt they'll ease up as soon as they feel they have the main problem dealt with.

[JLCrab]

I've attended packed conferences in Bangkok specifically for people who work online and live in Thailand. It's not uncommon at all and they don't have work permits. Thailand was on its way to becoming an online business startup hub, but now that's changing. They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs. 

This is what they are interested in:

 

The Thai government is committed to helping companies thrive through targeted policies that provide critical infrastructure, ongoing training for IT professionals, internship experience for recent software and animation graduates, and access to financing for investors to undertake capital and labor upgrades

 

http://www.boi.go.th/index.php?page=opp_software&language=en

 

Note the reference to companies -- not to the online freelancer.

Edited July 16, 2014 by JLCrab

[balo]

Forget Thailand now. Try Cambodia. Phnom Penh is a nice city and lotsof expats living there. I will join them soon if my visa in Thailand will not be accepted anymore. I own a condo. I will try to sell it but expect that will be difficult.

Sent from my SM-P601 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[duanebigsby]

 

I've attended packed conferences in Bangkok specifically for people who work online and live in Thailand. It's not uncommon at all and they don't have work permits. Thailand was on its way to becoming an online business startup hub, but now that's changing. They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs.

Top immigration officers have made some quite direct statements to the press about cracking down on Russian, Korean, Vietnamese and Laos nationals primarily working as waiters, tour guides, estate agents and criminals. From the measures announced so far, it seems clear to me that is the aim. Any inconvenience to english teachers and onliners is accidental collateral damage. I've no doubt they'll ease up as soon as they feel they have the main problem dealt with.

 

Except English teachers can get a work permit, so no excuse if they haven't got one.

I don't think they'll bother the onliners for no WP, but onliners can't get the appropriate visa and a lot are border runners, so....goodbye.

[Berkshire]

I've attended packed conferences in Bangkok specifically for people who work online and live in Thailand. It's not uncommon at all and they don't have work permits. Thailand was on its way to becoming an online business startup hub, but now that's changing. They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs. 

 

Young entrepreneurs?  How utterly comical.  Serious entrepreneurs with genuinely innovative ideas are not making visa runs and living in the shadows.  The people Thailand aims to get rid of are the nomads who don't even have the wherewithal or intelligence to find a legal way to stay.  They contribute nothing to Thai society, other than a few baht for rent and cheap noodles.   
 

Edited July 17, 2014 by Berkshire

[finy]

 

I've attended packed conferences in Bangkok specifically for people who work online and live in Thailand. It's not uncommon at all and they don't have work permits. Thailand was on its way to becoming an online business startup hub, but now that's changing. They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs. 

 

Young entrepreneurs?  How utterly comical.  Serious entrepreneurs with genuinely innovative ideas are not making visa runs and living in the shadows.  The people Thailand aims to get rid of are the nomads who don't even have the wherewithal or intelligence to find a legal way to stay.  They contribute nothing to Thai society, other than a few baht for rent and cheap noodles.   
 

 

 

You sound very out of touch with reality, but I'll give you a pass because you're probably a bit older than most.

 

Young people with $10-15K saved up can come to places like Thailand (they could) and work full-time on building their business while living on cheap noodle soup and studio apartments. It makes perfect sense and within a year or two they're usually making a decent income and they can run their business from anywhere in the world.

 

Anyway, yeah I also find it strange that they just don't show up at co-working spaces and arrest people if they're really serious about getting the online workers out.

 

Also, nobody in their right mind would pay 500Kbht for an elite card when building an online business. It's much easier to scale a business with money in the bank instead of tying it up for 5 years with a visa.

 

Think about it this way: if you're driving traffic to your site using paid ads you might find a profitable campaign where you put $1 in and $2 spits back out. Would you not want that 500kbht to throw into your profitable campaign rather than have it tied up in a 5 year visa?

 

Building a scalable business is about having money in liquid form ready to pump money in to get more out at a moment's notice.
 

Edited July 17, 2014 by finy

[JLCrab]

Current Thailand policy tolerates 'young entrepreneurs' working under the radar up to the extent that it may prove a dis-incentive to those willing and in a position to make current investments and hire qualified Thai comp-sci graduates as described above else they would raid the shared work spaces.

[seancbk]

Current Thailand policy tolerates 'young entrepreneurs' working under the radar up to the extent that it may prove a dis-incentive to those willing and in a position to make current investments and hire qualified Thai comp-sci graduates as described above else they would raid the shared work spaces.

 

Hi JL, 

 

I'm interested in what you have to say but find it hard to understand why you think this is the case.

 

Lets say there is someone designing websites for customers in the UK, they can do the job just as easily from the Thailand whilst living cheaper, so they move here.

 

They are now on whatever visa, tourist, ED (and learning Thai perhaps) and working illegally servicing their clients back in the UK.

 

First of all I don't think those types of people are the ones that would use a Co-Working space and secondly where is the dis-incentive for anyone wanting to invest in Thailand's growing IT sector just because a farang works from his condo?

 

I am involved with a group of investors (I would love to announce who they are but can't at the moment, I will at some point though) we are in the process of starting a large agency, of which I will be Director of E-commerce and I'll be hiring a team to support e-commerce clients.     The fact that there are hundred or even thousands of Farangs on tourist visa doing webdesign or other online jobs for overseas clients has absolutely zero bearing on whether we invest 50 million baht into our agency.

 

How do farang freelancers, who are more expensive than Thais, who are basically not promoting themselves in Thailand because they know they are illegal and who have enough work from overseas anyway in any way going to stop a company in Thailand from hiring qualified Thai comp-sci graduates?    

 

This all goes back to the argument that these freelancers are not taking Thai jobs, but are injecting money into all levels of the Thai economy.    The only thing they don't do is pay tax, but given that they most likely spend 100% of what they earn anyway that seems to be moot to me.   

 

Could you expand on your rationale?   

 

Cheers.

[seancbk]

 

I've attended packed conferences in Bangkok specifically for people who work online and live in Thailand. It's not uncommon at all and they don't have work permits. Thailand was on its way to becoming an online business startup hub, but now that's changing. They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs. 

 

Young entrepreneurs?  How utterly comical.  Serious entrepreneurs with genuinely innovative ideas are not making visa runs and living in the shadows.  The people Thailand aims to get rid of are the nomads who don't even have the wherewithal or intelligence to find a legal way to stay.  They contribute nothing to Thai society, other than a few baht for rent and cheap noodles.   
 

 

 

Those individual IT consultants who work remotely (as in they can work from anywhere) for large corporations on 3-6 month contracts at between 150-200,000 baht a month you mean.    

 

Or the guys who builds and maintains the servers, front and backends for medium scale ecommerce websites and get paid 50,000 THB for a few hours of work a week.  

 

Yes I'm sure they spend nothing eating out in Bangkok, clubbing, shopping and renting their 65,000 baht a month condo.

 

Seems to me you have a very cynical view of what actually an IT specialist does.

[Soutpeel]

 

 

 

Saigon is a hot spot for online workers right now and the visa situation in Vietnam is considerably easier than Thailand.

 

An ED visa will get you permission to stay in Thailand for about 30,000/year (go to the classes and be a legitimate student if you do it, don't be a <deleted> and ruin it for everyone else). It will not give you permission to work and a work permit cannot be obtained on an ED visa. I've never heard of immigration enforcing the work restriction against someone who was working online from their home, not making too much noise about it, and not doing work related to Thai companies or Thai people, however. (Has anybody?)

 

 

Just end a relationship, annoy your neighbour or a love rival, have an accident, etc and see how fast immigration come knocking on your door.

 

I certainly would not want to live 'permanently' under those circumstances...

 

Thats the point most other countries will give expats much earlier the possibility of a residence permit. 

 

True, but other countries' residence permit includes the right to work. Not so the Thai residence permit: You still have to apply for a work permit if you want to work.

 

 

But other countries also have more stringent requirements and checks before your even allowed in he country to reside, therefore one suspects in most cases one man band on liners without significant cash/investment captial behind them will not even get past the hurdle and not even be allowed in country in most countries    

[Soutpeel]

They could make a lot of money by issuing freelancers special visas, but for some reason they're not interested. In fact, now I have no idea what they're interested in. I guess 50+ year old retirees spending their money on bar girls is preferred over young entrepreneurs.

Going a route like this will open up a whole new avenue for visa abuse and staying long term without good reason, visa abuse is the exact reason they are cracking down right now...and your suggesting they create another loophole to be abused.. !!...

 

Here is my solution to this one line "problem"

 

If you want to operate a one man band here:

 

THB 1.0million captialised limited company

No requirement for 4 Thai employees

as most of the work is done outside the country 20-25% withholding tax on the company

private medical insurance & unemployment fund contributions

Annual fully audited books

 

You get a visa & WP,

 

 

this would be fair compromise as far as I am concerned and in fact this sort of set up is no different from being self employed in the UK or other places as in a lot of cases you need to form a Ltd company anyway to keep the tax man from crawling up your bottom

 

[DrTuner]

Simply allow foreigners to register single proprietor companies like Thais can. WP subject to tax paid on income, with a minimum of 50k baht per month, business extension of stay available against tax receipts. Only one WP allowed. Easily sorted.

Actually, there's already provision for this in the application form for a WP, but it probably only concerns people from neighboring countries.

[tpazzi]

 

Internet speeds in Asia: ...

Yes, and?
International Internet access is largely good enough for any online work.
Even Poker player can use it

 

 

 

Not true.   Some work requires more interactive activity than other (video conferencing, real-time software testing, etc.)  

Try day trading from Siem Reap if you doubt me.  

[duanebigsby]

 
Those individual IT consultants who work remotely (as in they can work from anywhere) for large corporations on 3-6 month contracts at between 150-200,000 baht a month you mean.    
 

 

Yes, these rich young entrepreneurs can work from anywhere.....except Thailand!

[finy]

 
Those individual IT consultants who work remotely (as in they can work from anywhere) for large corporations on 3-6 month contracts at between 150-200,000 baht a month you mean.    
 

 

Yes, these rich young entrepreneurs can work from anywhere.....except Thailand!

 

Not true!

 

They just can't work in Thailand long-term, but I bet most of them don't want to settle down long-term anyway.

 

Nothing wrong with doing 6 month stints in Bangkok, Bali, Saigon, Penang, etc.

 

Or they can get an education visa and work quietly from their bedroom provided they can get one, which most of the people who have been abusing the system over the last few years won't be able to do.

[LazyYogi]

There is one solution for freelance programmers or contract IT folks who want to work here LEGALLY.

You can get hired by an IT company in Thailand that specializes in outsourced work.

The company invoices your client instead of you directly.

The company pays you a salary based on how much you bring in minus some percentage.

They pay taxes out of the portion that was taken out, and you get Thai health insurance.

You get a non-B visa and work permit.

*Extra bonus--> As the visa is tied to a BOI promoted company, you also get to use the fast lane at the airport.

 

Here is one company that is doing this: http://iglu.in.th/work/

As it is a BOI company, they can get around the 4:1 Thai/foreigner staff ratio, so they're actively looking for more people.

You have to meet the legal requirements to get a visa, which would be a degree in your field or min 5 years experience.

Plus you need to be able to bring in a minimum of $2000 per month from your clients.

For many people that should be no problem.

 

The company I linked to is in Chiang Mai. But there may be some other companies in Bangkok or other places with a similar setup that I don't know about.

[Sortapundit]

There is a group of expat authors living in Thailand, I wonder what they do to stay legal?

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

I'm an author living maybe 6-8 months a year in Thailand on a tourist visa, and the situation for people like me is even more uncertain than for online freelancers, who are almost certainly breaking the law by working full time online (though it's a victimless crime, and you'd have to be pretty heartless and petty to wish to see them thrown out). I published my last novel in September of last year. I wrote the book variously in Thailand, Vietnam, India, Laos and Mongolia, and when I clicked 'publish' on Amazon KDP I was in Ulaanbaatar. Since its publication I've written newsletters for my 2,000 strong fan club while travelling in Thailand, Mongolia, the UK, France, Spain, Italy, Germany and the Czech Republic. My readers are in the US, the UK, Europe, Canada, Australia, Africa, South America and Asia, I'm paid by Amazon Luxembourg and I pay my taxes in the UK. 

 

Under a strict interpretation of immigration laws I've worked illegally in 5 countries over the last 12 months. The only countries in which I've worked legally are those in Europe, since my UK passport entitles me to freedom of employment across the EU. 

 

The problem is that a strict interpretation of the law is also an insanely ridiculous interpretation of the law. Where is the work in writing a novel? Is it in the conception of the story? Does writing a novel become work the moment my fingers hit the keys? Am I working when I proofread my manuscript for errors, or does it only become a job when I click 'publish'? How about when I write a post on my blog, or change the price of my books on Amazon?

 

To complicate matters further, I'm now essentially retired at the age of 32, and living on the royalties of the 50+ books I've published. I haven't published a word in a year, but am I still working illegally when I send out a bulk email to my fans to thank them for reading? How about if I include a link to a book in my back catalogue? How about if I come up with a great idea for a new story while sitting on a stool at a Thai bar? Does my leisurely retirement end the moment I play out a potential story in my head?

 

You see the problem. Thailand's visa framework - and that of pretty much every other country on the planet, for that matter - is antiquated. The rules were painted in broad strokes to cover just a few scenarios at a time when those scenarios were the only ones that needed to be addressed. The Internet has opened up many new possibilities and created countless new scenarios, and immigration law has yet to catch up. 

 

So, yes, as the law stands I'll be working illegally the moment I write a sentence that may one day be published, as will every author working in Thailand who hasn't set up their own publishing company and hired four Thais to sit around an office and do nothing, because their is no other legal avenue available for an author to write in Thailand.

 

That said, James Michener wrote from his suite in the Oriental Bangkok (I believe his typewriter is proudly on display in the suite named after him), as did Joseph Conrad, Somerset Maugham, and Graham Greene. Paul Theroux wrote The Great Railway Bazaar while riding the rails of Thailand, and John LeCarre put the finishing touches on The Honourable Schoolboy from his room at the Oriental. Most of these writers were probably visiting Thailand on tourist visas, or whatever equivalent existed at the time. Thailand has long been a haven for authors.

 

Historically, it seems, the Thai authorities have happily turned a blind eye to authors who write while visiting the country. Why wouldn't they? Only the most petty, vindictive and small-minded immigration official would balk at the idea, and nobody - literally nobody - could possibly have reason to care on which spot of land pen was put to paper. The problem is that, however little anyone cares to ferret out an author or a young entrepreneur developing the latest game changing mobile app, a dragnet intended to catch and evict Russian hookers, illegal tour guides and unqualified teachers will inevitably also scoop up some innocent guy who wants to live on a beach while penning a schmaltzy romance novel.

[Chivas]

 

Thailand Elite card.

 

Yes... Was reading about it yesterday. A bit too much of an investment (500k baht) for me, especially given the political etc. situation.

 

 

No one with any sense would possibly spend 500k on that........Utterly crazy. Here today gone tomorrow....

[finy]

I think it's also important to remember if you:

 

Ride a scooter without a helmet

Ride a scooter without an international license

Ride a scooter without a Thai license after a certain amount of months living in the country

Ride a scooter over the speed limit

Pay for sex

Etc...

 

Your opinion doesn't count for anything even though you might be living here legally, because ultimately you're still breaking Thai laws and that makes you a hypocrite.

[Pattaya46]

No one with any sense would possibly spend 500k on that........
Utterly crazy. Here today gone tomorrow....

Some people living here on Tourist Visa spend maybe 20-30'000 baht/year
in Visa, Extensions, trip to Laos,... and a lot of hassle and lost time...

Elite Privilege card is 100'000 baht/year.
Many may find it's rather cheap for no more hassle and visaruns