High-speed train project continues with the Bangkok-Chiang Mai route

[Lakegeneve]

The first time I took the train from Bangkok to Chiang Mai was in 1969. The scenery was beautiful no doubt. Also, I will never forget peeking out my curtains on my sleeper and seeing a drunk man walking around wielding a knife. Seventeen hours is a long ride!

Something needs to be done with mass transportation in an attempt to get buses and vans off the road, make travel easier, cheaper, greener, etc. Trains offer the best alternative. There is the whole issue of the ASEAN connectivity plans as well.

I thought the original plans for the trains call for completion before 2026. Should start with Bangkok-Pattaya, Bangkok-Hua Hin as priorities and work on the long hauls after.

This is actually the most sensible post in this whole silly thread. The HSR lines have not been cancelled just deferred, the junta only said that they will not fund the first phase this year. It is for the next govt. to decide.

Prayuth was dismissed funding the HSR plans at the moment and in the context where PT proposed granting 50 year land concessions and large numbers of foreign workers (read Chinese) were going to be involved in the project. Instead Prayuth wants to see the NE line double tracked as a priority and possibly electrified sooner (to be decided. The whole current narrow gauge network is planned to be eventually electrified).

That decision makes sense for now given the HSR lines association with PT even though it was in fact originally Democrat coalition govt (with BJT) policy. I've made the point many times that had the Dems been reelected in 2011, that they were ready to start construction of the Rayong HSR by the end of 2011 (realistically the first half of 2012). Don't forget that high speed rail plans has been in formulation since the mid 90s.

PT just wasted time (18 months) by reviewing the HSR plans, politicising them even more by changing their priorities to the two northern lines. That being said, the first part that was to be tendered was 86kms of HSR line from Bang Sue to just past Ayuttahya. That would have been a good start even though the Rayong HSR is the most economically profitable and really should be the first line built as it will use the 26km ARL as a backbone of the HSR line.

Double tracking/duplicating the SRT network and HSR lines are bipartisan policy which make economical, health and environmental sense in a country with a growing middle class and where very expensive, uneconomical motorways & highways cannot keep getting built for ever. No one queries when a new US$3 billion 196km highway from northern Bkk to Korat is proposed. (Last year stated to cost 65 billion baht and now is 84 billion baht). Yet the rail network was underfunded for 50 years and allowed to run down to the extent it has. And then people wonder why trains run so slow, derail so often and service standards are so poor.

The two dual processes are ongoing. Duplicating and modernising the current narrow gauge network, primarily in the long term for freight. And planning the new standard gauge HSR lines.

1) The upgrading and duplication of the current SRT narrow gauge network which has been ongoing for 10 years now. The so called double tracking program . The Dems put significant funds into this when they were in power to speed it up, followed by PT and now the junta are continuing the program. In essence, it will bring the SRT network to a standard of the late 20th century.

The upgrading program proposed from 10 years ago by OTP/MOT for the whole SRT network planned 3 phases of improving the network

1) Network Duplicating (double tracking) and signals upgrading which has been underway for over 10 years - includes the removal of the hundreds of "unofficial crossings" used by locals which contribute to accidents (nearly 50 people are killed a year, mostly motorists attempting to beat trains

2) Gradual electrification of the network based on priority lines (read freight lines)

3) Eventual standardisation of the network (though this is now most unlikely to occur)

Track duplication and signalling upgrades are most urgent (40 yrs overdue). Imagine if a major highway was still a one lane road from 50 years ago! The whole programs would have taken 3-4 decades to implement but the Dems followed by the PT proposed a huge increase in funds in order to implement most works within a 15-20 timeframe. It will allow the SRT to increase ave speeds from 45km/h to around 80-90km/h. Track will have a max operating speed of 120 km/h

The program is currently running around 3-4 years behind schedule. The Dems funded all of these 5 next phases, the money is allocated so the NCPO just had to rubber stamp what has been funded by previous budgets but which were delayed for around 18 months by the previous govt....and then subject to further delay due to political instability. These projects have bipartisan support from all parties.

See post #42 for more detailed info including a list of each phase and a map, http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/734092-prayuth-supports-double-track-project/page-2

2) New HSR lines proposed by OTP & MOT under the previous Dem government as a consolidation and expansion of previous HSR plans. HSR lines are a long term investment into the countries future infrastructure which will take 20+ years to implement. Rail infrastructure for well into the 21st century.

It took some 40 years to build Bangkoks new airport and a 2.5 decades to build BKKs first metro line - which still came 10 years later than planned. It is no surprise that planning for the long term future involves delays in the Thailand context. This HSR planning process is ongoing regardless of who is in power and how they wish to extract financial benefit from it. HSR lines will be implemented in some shape or form, sooner or later. Even Morocco is building a HSR (TGV) line!! Anyone wish to compare Thailand's economy with Morocco's economy?

3) New narrow gauge lines are also planned. Financial scoping and EIA studies are underway for the first two;

a) Denchai - Chaing Rai - Chaing Khong: 326km, 77 billion baht (currently completing the EIA)

Ban Phai - Roi Et - Mukdahan - Nakhon Phanom: 347km, 42 billion baht. (Completing public consultations & final route evaluation by Oct 2014)

c) Kanchanaburi - Dewei (Burma): 190km, proposed. Cost unknown.

4) The 6km missing link between Aranyaprathet and the Cambodian border (Poipet) is currently being rebuilt.

[Lakegeneve]

Completely disagree with this move by the Junta.

If Thailand cannot maintain slow speed trains they they won't be able to maintain high speed trains and the consequences will be disastrous.

I do not support this project; however, your comparison is not accurate.

The SRT infrastructure is 50-100 years old and the railcars are 30 years old.

It has been a seriously underfunded & chronically poorly maintained system for many, many decades.

Compare that against completely new technology, tracks, construction practices and trains.

For example, compare the existing the SRT to the SkyTrain.

Exactly! It is apples and oranges.

[ClutchClark]

Lakegeneve, in reference to Post #61.

That was an excellently written post.

I have certainly reconsidered my earlier opinion.

Thanks

[BSJ]

It will never be a realistic proposition.

The original outlay will never be returned to the treasury no matter what happens. 1000 baht tickets.......

Because of the nature of high speed rail, track and vehicle maintenance will be more intensive and more often.

After 20-25 years new trains will be needed.

Grade separation will be needed from start to finish.

The electric grid will need to supply up to 500 megawatts for the HS train system at peak times with many trains running.

Just doesn't make sense!

[Eric Loh]

From what I have read in some business articles, China is embarking on a high speed train that will rub across Asia to Europe as an alternative mode of goods transportation to shipping. Mades a lots of sense and as it will be cheaper and faster alternative to shipping. To made this viable, they have need a connecting HST network in the hinterland of Laos, Cambodia, Mynmay and Thailand. That is the reason why China is so eager to provide every assistance to help these countries to have connecting HST. I am sure the Bkk-Chiangmai route is just the first stage of the project but the real benefit will certainly be a connection to Nong Kai and join the Laos HST. The border trade is expanding expeditiously and seem the Junta also recognize the opportunities and potential. That was behind the previous government plan to increase border trade with more connectivities.

[HUAHIN62]

I opposed the high speed rail especially to Chiang Mai, when air travel in 1 hour or so for the same price.

So now I will say my piece, I am opposed to the high speed links to anywhere. Double standard rail-passenger-freight -double tracks-UK style enough for 20 years.

So my take is bash where needed I think this decision is wrong.

PTP and army wrong.

I think you are starting to see the light my friend. But ask yourself this question, why have they made a u turn on the highspeed trains (in less than a month), if you remember they took it out of the infrastructure projects. The answer lies in articles written during a recent high profile Thai visit to China. All these articles said that the Chinese was pressing for the highspeed trains to continue, low and behold a few weeks later its back on the table. The previous government wanted to spend B 2 tn on infrastructure projects and it was shot down as too expensive and a lot of noise about corruption, now we are facing B 3 tn (1st round of projects) plus this highspeed trains which would be B 500 bn plus and then not forget about escallation cost over the next 7 years and add on's. Ask yourself this if B 2 tn was too much why are B 3,5 tn not too much now? and what systems and structures have been put into place to ensure transparency on these projects? We only have the word of a person thats all.

[pjckmen]

Very interesting and beautiful.

[Ricardo]

I'd still love to see decent rail from Downtown to BKK to Pattaya, just to make the trip safer. I don't really care if it's high speed, but if they're starting from scratch, why not?

Me too, the current daily train on what has to be one of the most-heavily-travelled journeys in Thailand, is a total failure.

I had hoped that recent work to dual the line from the port to Chachoengsao (sp ?) might lead to a real attempt to run a passenger-service, on the Bangkok-Pattaya route, but suspect that that would upset too many bus/taxi-operators.

Or running the airport-link from DMK to BKK and on to Pattaya would make some sense ?

[Thakkar]

Just curious as how somebody figured it will cost 1074 baht, in 12 years from now. I am pretty sure nobody knows how much things will cost that far out.

Leaked documents show that the actual figure was 1,074.29 but they decided the public would be incredulous at this precise figure so rounded it to 1074.

"This will ensure total credibility," announced the Chairman.

T

[johnmcc6]

I opposed the high speed rail especially to Chiang Mai, when air travel in 1 hour or so for the same price.

So now I will say my piece, I am opposed to the high speed links to anywhere. Double standard rail-passenger-freight -double tracks-UK style enough for 20 years.

So my take is bash where needed I think this decision is wrong.

PTP and army wrong.

A financial disaster in the making. The poor can't afford it and the better off will fly. The cost of these trains in construction and mantanence needs far more than Thailands population to make it viable.

[tingtongteesood]

I agree with Ginjag, it's an unnecessary waste of money.

[BangkokHank]

I really don't understand how these high speed rail projects can pay their own way. 1000 baht in today's dollars is not far off what low cost carriers do to Chiang Mai. How can this pay for itself?

You're missing the point. It's not supposed to pay for ITSELF. It's supposed to pay for the corrupt politicians / generals who are going to be able to set up Shinawatra-style family dynasties with the money they're going to be able to divert from the project into their pockets.

[SABloke]

I would dearly love to see the construction engineers plan to have a train wind through mountains at high speed. Looking forward to some ghastly headlines of entire trains going off the mountain. Have the NCPO finally succumbed to the lure of personal enrichment at the expense of the taxpayers?

Finally? What do you mean? The lottery giants here are, in one big case, military owned. See what's been done about it? They cut out the little guys, and threw more meat to the dragon instead. FInally? FInally since thirty years ago.

Finally? What do you mean?

I didn't use the word 'finally' so I have no idea what your question is.

FInally? FInally since thirty years ago.

Please be more specific as I haven't a clue what you are referring to that happened 30 years ago.

[ginjag]

I opposed the high speed rail especially to Chiang Mai, when air travel in 1 hour or so for the same price.

So now I will say my piece, I am opposed to the high speed links to anywhere. Double standard rail-passenger-freight -double tracks-UK style enough for 20 years.

So my take is bash where needed I think this decision is wrong.

PTP and army wrong.

I think you are starting to see the light my friend. But ask yourself this question, why have they made a u turn on the highspeed trains (in less than a month), if you remember they took it out of the infrastructure projects. The answer lies in articles written during a recent high profile Thai visit to China. All these articles said that the Chinese was pressing for the highspeed trains to continue, low and behold a few weeks later its back on the table. The previous government wanted to spend B 2 tn on infrastructure projects and it was shot down as too expensive and a lot of noise about corruption, now we are facing B 3 tn (1st round of projects) plus this highspeed trains which would be B 500 bn plus and then not forget about escallation cost over the next 7 years and add on's. Ask yourself this if B 2 tn was too much why are B 3,5 tn not too much now? and what systems and structures have been put into place to ensure transparency on these projects? We only have the word of a person thats all.

I don't think I am seeing the light, I saw it before.

No need for the high speed train -period.. Too costly---no freight on high speed. fly better option. Stupid from the start---graft money to pay for the Rice loss ????

[givenall]

High-speed train continued

BANGKOK, 17 July 2014 (NNT) - The high-speed train project has been continued with the Bangkok-Chiang Mai route expected to begin service in 2026. Three-hour trips between the two provinces are expected to cost around 1,000 baht/person.

The working committee of the Bangkok-Chiang Mai high-speed train project phase 2 said the National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) had given the green light to the project to move forward.

High-speed trains from Bangkok to Phitsanulok is set to operate in 2024 and from Bangkok to Chiang Mai in 2026. The project’s budget for construction and expropriation are estimated at 380 billion baht.

The fare of a three-hour Bangkok-Chiang Mai trip is estimated at 1,074 baht.

According to the committee, officials and the private sector in Chiang Mai expressed concerns over the expropriation and asked the committee to carefully study the matter to prevent future problems.

They also called on the committee to connect high-speed train stations with other transportation systems.

-- NNT 2014-07-17

Thanks god it will pass my time since I would never trust Thai operator to ride the train

Sent from my C1904 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[givenall]

I really don't understand how these high speed rail projects can pay their own way. 1000 baht in today's dollars is not far off what low cost carriers do to Chiang Mai. How can this pay for itself?

You're missing the point. It's not supposed to pay for ITSELF. It's supposed to pay for the corrupt politicians / generals who are going to be able to set up Shinawatra-style family dynasties with the money they're going to be able to divert from the project into their pockets.

I am still surprised that some people don't understand this country is family business and most of people are labror

Sent from my C1904 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Sena Dave]

 

I really don't understand how these high speed rail projects can pay their own way. 1000 baht in today's dollars is not far off what low cost carriers do to Chiang Mai. How can this pay for itself?

You're missing the point. It's not supposed to pay for ITSELF. It's supposed to pay for the corrupt politicians / generals who are going to be able to set up Shinawatra-style family dynasties with the money they're going to be able to divert from the project into their pockets.

I am still surprised that some people don't understand this country is family business and most of people are labror

Sent from my C1904 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

Its very similar to what is happening with projects in Malaysia, Klang Valley metro 600 Billion baht, Pedang basar -Ipoh double Track 200 Million Baht, KL-Sing High speed TBA , Penang Metro -TBA. The political parties and politicians both state and Federal are in for a very tasty back hander from the construction companies with the Tax payers money , its a Bottomless pit

[squarethecircle]

From what I have read in some business articles, China is embarking on a high speed train that will rub across Asia to Europe as an alternative mode of goods transportation to shipping. Mades a lots of sense and as it will be cheaper and faster alternative to shipping. To made this viable, they have need a connecting HST network in the hinterland of Laos, Cambodia, Mynmay and Thailand. That is the reason why China is so eager to provide every assistance to help these countries to have connecting HST. I am sure the Bkk-Chiangmai route is just the first stage of the project but the real benefit will certainly be a connection to Nong Kai and join the Laos HST. The border trade is expanding expeditiously and seem the Junta also recognize the opportunities and potential. That was behind the previous government plan to increase border trade with more connectivities.

From what I read the HST's inside China are already a staggering financial drain, this even inside the densely populated eastern flatlands of the mainland. So I hope the project goes on as I enjoy seeing Ch. f--- up and hope to see her on her knees one of these days, but for the sake of the Thai population it is pointless.

Edited July 18, 2014 by squarethecircle

[Cake Monster]

Unless Thailand adopts the wide gauge rail line system, a high speed rail link on the present narrow gauge will be like travelling on a roller blade.

Any more than 80 Kph and the train will just fall over

[Oorinara]

Narrow gauge in Japan, max speed up to 160km/h. Though rail and car conditions incomparable with SRT.

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[Sena Dave]

The Narrow gauge just built in Malaysia has 140kph limit . Potentially the track is built for 180kph. There is High speed and high speed but you wont get either brand on Narrow gauge. For standard gauge the real difference between true high speed (300kph plus) and the rest is the radius of the curves believe it or not and the rate of change for flat straight track to canted curved track. The smallest Radius allowable on High speed track slab is 7000 metre radius or 4.5 Miles, so for this suggested route "Winding around Mountains" isn't on , it will be Tunnel and viaduct which equals lots of money

[Lakegeneve]

The ongoing long term Track Duplication and Upgrade program in Thailand is effectively around a decade behind the Malaysian program. The main reason for this is the difference in the political stability between both countries. Malaysia has effectively been a one party state for decades and has thus been able to provide continuity in the policy and financial implementation of their program. (That doesn't mean that there have not been delays, as there has been). Sena correctly points out all major projects leak financial benefits to those in power in Malaysia but that is hardly news.

In Thailand, the last decade of political instability with 6 different administrations has meant that policy continuity has been severely disrupted and infrastructure project planning has been fragmented. Each new administration reviews previous projects and budgets and then seeks to impose its agenda of infrastructure priorities based on what can be politically and personally beneficial. That fact, along with the the SRT Board being poor performers in implementing policy when they do obtain the funds has resulted in the previous Master Plan timeframe from 5 years ago (once the Dems allocated a significant amount of funds), is already some 3-4 years behind schedule! (See the table below for this previous schedule)

As an example, the one upgrade currently under tender (it closed on 15 July - 6 bidders), the 106km Kaeng Khoi to Klong 19 to Chanchaengsao line was first stated to be a priority in 2003 with a tender due in 2005!!! It forms part of the priority Laem Chabang to Kaeng Khoi section. (Laem Chabang to Chachaengsao was completed in 2012).

The next sections to be tendered which have previously been fully budgeted (by the Dems and continued by PT) are;

1) Map Kabao-Jira Junction (132km); 29.855 billion baht

2) Nakhon Pathom-Nong Pladuk-Hua Hin (165km) 20.038 billion baht

3) Lop Buri-Pak Nampo (118km); 24.842 billion baht

4) Nakhon Ratchasima-Khon Kaen (185km); 26.007 billion baht

5) and Prachuap Khiri Khan-Chumphon (167km). 17.292 billion baht

However, the EIAs have all been delayed by the political turmoil. EIAs for (4) & (5) are seen as the easiest to complete by the end of 2014 so that work may commence in the 1st quarter of 2015.

SRT trains are renowned for their slow speeds and delayed scheduling due to state of the single track network. This project will allow the SRT to increase ave speeds from 45km/h to around 80-90km/h. Most track will have a max operating speed of 120 km/h although a couple of priority freight sections are planned to have future 160 km/h max operations. It is still planned to later electrify parts of the network.

This program has bipartisan support across the political spectrum. Dems, PT, minor parties, even the junta. They all recognise the importance and cost benefits of such even if it has been a dysfunctional mess in terms of project implementation.

The previous schedule

Note: The current schedule is basically Phase 1 from late 2014/15-2018/19

Phase 2 from 2017/18-2022

Phase 3 to be rescheduled upon completion of Phase 1

(Most likely add at least 1-2 years onto those dates.)

[thaibeachlovers]

I really don't understand how these high speed rail projects can pay their own way. 1000 baht in today's dollars is not far off what low cost carriers do to Chiang Mai. How can this pay for itself?

No railway pays for itself. All subsidised.